Junior ME looking for advice for the future

[Bourgeois]

Hi, I am going into my 3rd year in MechE, currently have a 4.0 gpa at a top 10 engineering school. I had an interest in going into IP law since freshman year which is why I intend to maintain this GPA and can push myself to get a high LSAT and expect to get into T14 if I am fully committed. If I were completely set on becoming a marketable Patent attorney, what would you recommend a motivated student do?

Dilemma: I intend to apply to T14 and get as much scholarships as I can but I may choose a lower school if I can get closer to a full ride there. For other law professions, I understand that if I didn't attend a T14 it'd be nearly impossible to get a high paying job (apparently salaries are bimodal) but are salaries bimodal for Patent attorneys? I don't think I would want to choose this route if my salary wasn't 120k at least

Moreover,

Goal: close to full ride and a job out of law school at a 50-60 hours a week firm that pays 120k or more

One of my big concerns is that an ME isn't marketable but should I worry so much if I can attend a T14 school and study hard enough to be at the top of my class in law school? Or would a T20 near full ride and top 10% in 1L would be good enough? (not sure if patent firms care about my law school ranking as much as my technical background) Again, keeping my ultimate goal in mind.

I have read approximately the first 8 pages of this subforum so I have considered some pathways:

1. get a MSEE conventionally-- although, I'm worried recruiters won't care so much that I have a MSEE and disregard my resume because they are told to look for a BSEE (I'll probably try to TA so I can graduate debt free)
2.get a BSEE conventionally-- my school doesn't let me double major in EE so this would take like a year at least more than MSEE even at other schools; although I can try to get into a very low ranked 4 year school and perhaps get close to a full ride (my high school credentials are good and my college resume would make it stand out) and I think my 2nd bachelors wouldn't affect my LSAC GPA either
3. get a MSEE or BSEE unconventionally such as through an online college or take night classes -- Are online classes not accepted by firms/clients? Are night classes feasible?
4. Get a firm to pay for law school and maybe attend night school -- Patent agents are paid about the same as engineers so I was thinking I could become best friends with a firm but do you think this can happen?

Part of me is so concerned because I hate the feeling of being unemployed (applying for internships this past semester and not receiving any offers after many applications). Although I did succeed at last, I would like to plan out my career so I can feel less worried.

P.S. I am considering if I will enjoy the work of both engineers/lawyers through other means so let's keep this thread on topic.
P.P.S. If there are any other options/factors I haven't considered please say so, I hope others in a similar spot as me can use this in the future as a go-to!

[blakesq]

I am a mechanical engineer.  Took a long time for me to get my first patent job, while EEs had little problem.  I would get the bsee.  Then go to the highest rated law school while keeping your debt as low as possible.  Good luck!

[Tobmapsatonmi]

I'd say you're asking all the right questions, and, not to be patronizing at all, much more self-aware and accepting of reality than many people who ask similar questions here.  Congrats on the 4.0 and do what you can to hang onto it, but don't beat yourself up if it ends up a 3.9...

BSME has not been hot for patent law for years (like 20 or so, IMHO).  Still, you do see the occasional listings for ME when you go through job boards (two samples in first two links below).

I wish some of your predecessor BSMEs would come back and post their eventual outcomes.  We had a guy here maybe 3 years ago who was deeply in debt from his UG BSME, planning to go even more deeply in debt for LS, and deeply, deeply in denial about ME and its value in the patent world.  I'd frankly love to have him come back and toss a great patent job starting at $130K or more in all of our faces.

Bimodality: I'd say it is less demarcated in the patent world than in law generally, with the caveat that any patent attorney salary survey can only consider those who do get jobs as patent attorneys.  Among those who do, though, you won't see too many eking out a living at 35-50K the way you do with other attorneys; just at a SWAG, I think the floor's more like 70-80K, and more often around 100K even in smaller firms.  Those who can't get jobs as patent attorneys probably do contribute to the left hand side of the regular bimodal law salary graph you've seen.  Or make paninis at Panera Bread, for Pete's sake.  Whatever.


Several paths to consider, and for now I'm (mostly) going to ignore your UG degree.  First is, I'd say only worry about T14 or better if your plan is to go into biglaw, for example to become a patent litigator or IP transactional work.  I assume you know about LST but if not check the 3rd link below, you can sort LS by % of class going to biglaw.  If this is your plan, I wouldn't worry so much about your UG because patent litigators have all kinds of UG backgrounds, many not even technical in nature.  Would an EE be better?  Maybe.  But if you're in the top third at a T10 school sending +60% of its grads to biglaw... you get the picture.

If you start leaning this way, do some reading on biglaw and how few people manage to last more than 6-8 years.  Generally attrition rates are 85% or higher (95% in firms like Skadden).  So the tradeoff is amassing a lot of debt at a very highly ranked school (because they're not known to be too generous, right?) to get a very high-paying job that you have a low chance (statistically) of holding for a long time.

OTOH, if what you want is to do patent prosecution (which "50-60 hours per week" sounded like), I don't think the patent-specific firms (larger or smaller) care quite so much about school rank.  I mean, don't go to Cooley or TJLS for sure, but well-regarded regional or state LS should be fine.  LS would act as a tie-breaker, of course, between two otherwise identical candidates.  Highly applaud the notion of going to a decent school for free, or nearly so.  And check the 4th link below, Finnegan; it's nice because you can search lawyers by law school and/or UG.  Some of the other powerhouse IP firms provide similarly narrow people searching. 

Continuing with a patent prosecution theme, I'd strongly consider shooting for an engineering job and then trying to market yourself as a patent agent more or less as in your #4.  Go ahead and take the LSAT(*) and get an idea of where you'd fall in terms of schools/scholarships, but even if you spend a year or two trying to get an agent job and fail, the law schools will still be there waiting to welcome you, if that's what you want to do at that point.



http://careers.aipla.org/jobseeker/job/35276294/patent-associate/dorsey-whitney-llp/?str=1&max=25&long=1&vnet=0
(indicates BS engineering (generally speaking) w/ MSEE meets acceptability (note this one requires 2 years experience))

http://careers.aipla.org/jobseeker/job/35678657/patent-associate-eeme/ohlandt-greeley-ruggiero-perle-llp/?str=1&max=25&long=1&vnet=0
("Currently, OGRP is recruiting for patent attorneys, soon-to-be patent attorneys, and patent agents having either an electrical or computer (hardware) background. Thus, a B.S. degree in electrical engineering, computer engineering, or mechanical engineering is required. Experience in patent prosecution is not required.")

https://www.lstreports.com/

http://www.finnegan.com/Lawyers/


(*) LSAT:  Don't shell out bucks for test prep courses for this until you've given it a fair shake yourself with cheap stuff from LSAC and a $25 Barron's (etc.) guide.  My own experience and that of many engineers is that this test is basically an engineer's dream, other than needing to improve reading speed for the readcomp section.

[Bourgeois]

Thanks Tobmapsatonmi! I have had quite a few thoughts since the start of this thread. I am sure if I continued my determination I would be fine in the future but the road I'm on seems very discouraging.

Thoughts:

1. I only considered BigLaw because it seems that, with a ME degree ,most jobs are in BigLaw and small/medium firms looking for ME with 120K+ salary seem few and far between. Is this true?

2.If I were willing to go to BigLaw for a few years would jobs at medium/small firms, in-house be easy to get? (I do not care about high salaries that much, just somewhat higher than what an ME makes and the IP work itself would make me happy)

3.I don't think I can handle BigLaw when I am in my 40's or even 30's (can't handle 70 hour work weeks at that point anymore) and especially not for the rest of my life so where do most attorneys who start at BigLaw end-up at those ages?

4. After getting my first IP job should finding jobs afterward not be difficult in case my firm turns over or something else? (Stability is important to my long term goals, especially as I consider family)

I have looked through the posts of many attorneys on this forum and I find out about an EE making 80K (according to stuntman on a thread called Patent Prosecution SUCKS! on JDunderground) and blakesq, a ME, who went to University of Texas and taking 3 years to find his first job which makes me feel like T14 or even T6 is necessary, debt inevitable, and BSEE necessary.

[bluerogue]

1. I only considered BigLaw because it seems that, with a ME degree ,most jobs are in BigLaw and small/medium firms looking for ME with 120K+ salary seem few and far between. Is this true?

2.If I were willing to go to BigLaw for a few years would jobs at medium/small firms, in-house be easy to get? (I do not care about high salaries that much, just somewhat higher than what an ME makes and the IP work itself would make me happy)

I don't know for sure, but most decently sized botiques probably pay ~100k if you can get in.  This was about 5 years ago.   EE is of course easier, but YMMV.   As someone who went the biglaw and in house route at one point in my career, I can tell you that getting into in house is probably more a function of who you know and networking.  Competence is assumed, but knowing someone in house or working for them as outside counsel helps immensely in the in house search.  I ended up getting my job without either, but I've been told that's more the exception than the rule.

May I also suggest the patent office as an alternative if you want to do the IP route.  Primary examiners are paid ~120k and have generally better lifestyles than in house (and definitely better than biglaw) with some decent benefits to go with the good salary. 

4. After getting my first IP job should finding jobs afterward not be difficult? (Stability is important to my long term goals, especially as I consider family)
I have looked through the posts of many attorneys on this forum and I find out about an EE making 80K (according to stuntman on a thread called Patent Prosecution SUCKS! on JDunderground) and blakesq, a ME, who went to University of Texas and taking 3 years to find his first job which makes me feel like T14 or even T6 is necessary, debt inevitable, and BSEE necessary.

A T14 helps immensely.  I was at a T10 at the time and probably 2/3 of us got biglaw jobs.  But the debt is pretty bad.  Depending on your goals, a T50 in a geographical area you want to practice in with a full or 3/4 ride may be preferable.  Lots go into that calculation though.

[Bourgeois]

Thanks bluerogue, I'll look into primary examiners.Regarding the topics I brought up initially, I think the best route for me would be to take online classes to get a BSEE while working full-time. (I'm thinking online or night classes and if anyone knows anything about online BSEE classes it would be nice to hear)

Although I initially thought that having both BSME and BSEE would be an advantage, I'm not so certain after thinking from the perspective of clients/partners/recruiters. (if I specialize in mostly EE patents would my partners not be comfortable with giving me ME work leaving that degree useless or if I don't specialize in either would I just be an overflow attorney risking failure to meet billable hours?) Does anyone have any insight?