Any advise for working in big law?

[jtyshxq]

Hi, everyone,

I have been working with a solo practitioner (a partner and another patent agent) for the last 3 years.
Very small firm, laid back atmosphere. Normally, every piece of work I have done gets a revision from either the partner or the senior patent agent.

I just accepted an offer from a biglaw last week. While giving the two-week notice to my current boss, he basically says biglaws give you very small margin of error. You might get fired due to a single mistake you make. I never made any big technical mistakes during last 3 years, but his words make me really nervous.

I am just wondering what is everyone's experience with working in biglaws. Do partners normally give you revisions? what is generally considered a mistake that can get you fired?

[ThomasPaine]

The most important thing to learn in biglaw is when to say "No."  Don't agree to do work that you won't be able to finish in the time given. 

You have to have enough work to bill your time, with the understanding that even if you are pretty efficient, you'll only be able to bill about 80+% of the time you spend working.  In prep and pros there is a lot of "work" that needs to be done that you can't bill clients for.  Managing your docket, reviewing bills, fixing PTO screw ups, etc.  Can't bill any of that.  You probably already know that, but it will be more time when you're working in a biglaw environment.

But you don't want to have so much work that you can't meet your deadlines, both internal (i.e. to the attorney assigning the work to you) and external (i.e. to the PTO).  It's a balancing act.  Every single day.  Look at your docket.  Every single day.  Figure out how you're going to get everything done on time.  If you can't get everything done, ask for help.  Before it's late.  Not after. 

If you have too much work, and you're offered more, absolutely decline.  Politely.  If it's somebody you haven't worked with before, tell them you would like to work with them when your work load lightens up.  They will respect you for that.  They will not respect you if you agree to take on the work, and then deliver it late. 

You'll get fired if you miss due dates.  Probably not for missing a 3 month due date and costing the firm a $200 extension, but if you miss dates that cause cases to go abandoned, you'll be fired.  Of course, if you miss a lot of 3 month due dates, you'll probably get fired, so whatever you do don't defend yourself along the lines of "Sheesh, it's not like it went abandoned!"

Reviews from partners, and senior associates if they give you work, varies widely.  Some will put your work through the ringer.  Others will review more loosely.  Especially as you are coming in with 3 years experience, they might be expecting a higher level of work. 

Print your work out (yes, on paper) and step away from it for awhile (a day if you have it) and sit down and read it with a red pen in your hand before submitting it for review.  Partners are not your spelling and/or grammar teachers.  If you consistently turn in work that needs those basic revisions, eventually you will get fired.  Partners are interested in how much money they can make from your work.  The less review they have to do to have a high degree of confidence in your work means more money in their pocket.  They like that.

Other than that, you can get fired for all the garden variety reasons people get fired from any job, e.g. inappropriate "relationships" with co-workers, talking out of school, unexplained absences, etc.

Remember, they want you to succeed.  Because when you do they are profiting.  Keep making them money and you'll be fine.

[midwestengineer]

You will be a cog in a machine.  There will be other cogs that are just as capable of performing the same function that you are performing.  If you displease those who have work you will no longer be given work.  If you don't have sufficient work to meet your hours you will be let go.  Another cog will be purchased to replace you if you are let go.  Big law firms prefer to buy new cogs rather than repair/upgrade existing cogs.

As an agent, you will be primarily looked at as a profit generating entity.  If you produce good work product that requires minimal revisions you will be profitable.  If you produce work product, substantively good or not, that requires significant revisions you will not be profitable.

Generally, the expectation is that you will adapt to the writing style preference of your reviewer.  You will likely have multiple, different reviewers and will need to adapt to each of their preferences.  Spelling/grammar/stylistic mistakes are expected to all but disappear from your drafts very quickly.

[jtyshxq]

Thank you for taking the time to reply. It helps a lot.
Hopefully, I will survive.

The most important thing to learn in biglaw is when to say "No."  Don't agree to do work that you won't be able to finish in the time given. 

You have to have enough work to bill your time, with the understanding that even if you are pretty efficient, you'll only be able to bill about 80+% of the time you spend working.  In prep and pros there is a lot of "work" that needs to be done that you can't bill clients for.  Managing your docket, reviewing bills, fixing PTO screw ups, etc.  Can't bill any of that.  You probably already know that, but it will be more time when you're working in a biglaw environment.

But you don't want to have so much work that you can't meet your deadlines, both internal (i.e. to the attorney assigning the work to you) and external (i.e. to the PTO).  It's a balancing act.  Every single day.  Look at your docket.  Every single day.  Figure out how you're going to get everything done on time.  If you can't get everything done, ask for help.  Before it's late.  Not after. 

If you have too much work, and you're offered more, absolutely decline.  Politely.  If it's somebody you haven't worked with before, tell them you would like to work with them when your work load lightens up.  They will respect you for that.  They will not respect you if you agree to take on the work, and then deliver it late. 

You'll get fired if you miss due dates.  Probably not for missing a 3 month due date and costing the firm a $200 extension, but if you miss dates that cause cases to go abandoned, you'll be fired.  Of course, if you miss a lot of 3 month due dates, you'll probably get fired, so whatever you do don't defend yourself along the lines of "Sheesh, it's not like it went abandoned!"

Reviews from partners, and senior associates if they give you work, varies widely.  Some will put your work through the ringer.  Others will review more loosely.  Especially as you are coming in with 3 years experience, they might be expecting a higher level of work. 

Print your work out (yes, on paper) and step away from it for awhile (a day if you have it) and sit down and read it with a red pen in your hand before submitting it for review.  Partners are not your spelling and/or grammar teachers.  If you consistently turn in work that needs those basic revisions, eventually you will get fired.  Partners are interested in how much money they can make from your work.  The less review they have to do to have a high degree of confidence in your work means more money in their pocket.  They like that.

Other than that, you can get fired for all the garden variety reasons people get fired from any job, e.g. inappropriate "relationships" with co-workers, talking out of school, unexplained absences, etc.

Remember, they want you to succeed.  Because when you do they are profiting.  Keep making them money and you'll be fine.

[jtyshxq]

Thanks for your reply. I have to try my best to survive.

You will be a cog in a machine.  There will be other cogs that are just as capable of performing the same function that you are performing.  If you displease those who have work you will no longer be given work.  If you don't have sufficient work to meet your hours you will be let go.  Another cog will be purchased to replace you if you are let go.  Big law firms prefer to buy new cogs rather than repair/upgrade existing cogs.

As an agent, you will be primarily looked at as a profit generating entity.  If you produce good work product that requires minimal revisions you will be profitable.  If you produce work product, substantively good or not, that requires significant revisions you will not be profitable.

Generally, the expectation is that you will adapt to the writing style preference of your reviewer.  You will likely have multiple, different reviewers and will need to adapt to each of their preferences.  Spelling/grammar/stylistic mistakes are expected to all but disappear from your drafts very quickly.

[blakesq]

I charge for fixing pto screwups.  Why wouldn't you?

The most important thing to learn in biglaw is when to say "No."  Don't agree to do work that you won't be able to finish in the time given. 

You have to have enough work to bill your time, with the understanding that even if you are pretty efficient, you'll only be able to bill about 80+% of the time you spend working.  In prep and pros there is a lot of "work" that needs to be done that you can't bill clients for.  Managing your docket, reviewing bills, fixing PTO screw ups, etc.  Can't bill any of that.  You probably already know that, but it will be more time when you're working in a biglaw environment.

But you don't want to have so much work that you can't meet your deadlines, both internal (i.e. to the attorney assigning the work to you) and external (i.e. to the PTO).  It's a balancing act.  Every single day.  Look at your docket.  Every single day.  Figure out how you're going to get everything done on time.  If you can't get everything done, ask for help.  Before it's late.  Not after. 

If you have too much work, and you're offered more, absolutely decline.  Politely.  If it's somebody you haven't worked with before, tell them you would like to work with them when your work load lightens up.  They will respect you for that.  They will not respect you if you agree to take on the work, and then deliver it late. 

You'll get fired if you miss due dates.  Probably not for missing a 3 month due date and costing the firm a $200 extension, but if you miss dates that cause cases to go abandoned, you'll be fired.  Of course, if you miss a lot of 3 month due dates, you'll probably get fired, so whatever you do don't defend yourself along the lines of "Sheesh, it's not like it went abandoned!"

Reviews from partners, and senior associates if they give you work, varies widely.  Some will put your work through the ringer.  Others will review more loosely.  Especially as you are coming in with 3 years experience, they might be expecting a higher level of work. 

Print your work out (yes, on paper) and step away from it for awhile (a day if you have it) and sit down and read it with a red pen in your hand before submitting it for review.  Partners are not your spelling and/or grammar teachers.  If you consistently turn in work that needs those basic revisions, eventually you will get fired.  Partners are interested in how much money they can make from your work.  The less review they have to do to have a high degree of confidence in your work means more money in their pocket.  They like that.

Other than that, you can get fired for all the garden variety reasons people get fired from any job, e.g. inappropriate "relationships" with co-workers, talking out of school, unexplained absences, etc.

Remember, they want you to succeed.  Because when you do they are profiting.  Keep making them money and you'll be fine.

[ThomasPaine]

Depends on the screw up, I guess.  When the "screw up" is an improper rejection, charge away.  When the PTO screw up is, for example, an improper charge (e.g. extra claim fees, second Notice of Appeal fee after re-opening, extensions of time when I responded within 2 months of a final rejection, $180 for IDS, etc.) or an incorrect OFR, etc., I don't think the client should be charged for that.  "Great news, the PTO improperly charged you $200 for a one month extension, and I got it refunded.  Here's my bill for $150."  Doesn't seem right to me.

[fewyearsin]

Hi, everyone,

I have been working with a solo practitioner (a partner and another patent agent) for the last 3 years.
Very small firm, laid back atmosphere. Normally, every piece of work I have done gets a revision from either the partner or the senior patent agent.

I just accepted an offer from a biglaw last week. While giving the two-week notice to my current boss, he basically says biglaws give you very small margin of error. You might get fired due to a single mistake you make. I never made any big technical mistakes during last 3 years, but his words make me really nervous.

I am just wondering what is everyone's experience with working in biglaws. Do partners normally give you revisions? what is generally considered a mistake that can get you fired?

Here's what you will probably find in biglaw.  You will disappear.  No one will personally care about you.  They will only see you as your billables.  I actually got away with more mistakes in biglaw because no one was reviewing like they should have been.  In smaller-law, clients look at everything. 

Pretty soon you will be overworked and realize that you are only getting paid a very little more than your old firm, and working twice as much with no end in sight and, to be honest, no chance at partnership or other advancement.

Note that your incorrect use of the word "advise" in your post heading indicates a possible lack of attention to detail, which will be required in biglaw.  Yes, biglaw reviewers will mark up your work, but if they have to keep marking it up over and over, you'll be shown the door.

Edit - Make sure to keep a good relationship with the solo you are leaving.  And network as much as possible at your new firm.  Even the best attorneys/agents burn out in biglaw.  3-5 years is VERY common for people to give up on biglaw and get out.  Don't fool yourself, this is not the end of your job searching.

[midwestengineer]

Thanks for your reply. I have to try my best to survive.

Big law does not care that you're trying your best to survive.  You can't argue your merits or that you gave it your best if they don't like your work product or you.

Have a backup plan.  Be prepared to get out.  Keep touch with multiple recruiters to keep your options open.  Network like crazy.

[bluerogue]

Not much advice, but good luck to you.

Manage your docket.  Don't be afraid to turn down work if you have too much.  Do it in a nice way as suggested above. Double and triple check all your work and proofread. As folks have said, the subject line shows a bit of lack of detail orientation.  That'll be a big problem in biglaw.  Get paranoid about details.

BE NICE TO YOUR SECRETARY.  She can make or break you and she's likely been there for a while so use her as a resource for information.

I spent two years in big law after a clerkship and decided it was not for me.  I jumped to in house and it didn't get better.  Ended up at one of the companies that is actually worse than biglaw. I'm not sure I'll ever go back to private practice at this point unless it's on my own or with a small firm where I have more control over my time.

[novobarro]

What firms would be considered big law for patent prep/pros?  Big IP firm like Finnegan?  Med IP firm like Stern Kessler, Oblon?  Or huge GP firms like Baker?

[jtyshxq]

What firms would be considered big law for patent prep/pros?  Big IP firm like Finnegan?  Med IP firm like Stern Kessler, Oblon?  Or huge GP firms like Baker?

I would consider any law firm that pays top-market salaries as BigLaw. Of course, it should have at least 100 attorneys.

[blakesq]

I hear you, but it doesn't seem right for me to work for free, unless I was the one who made the mistake. 

Depends on the screw up, I guess.  When the "screw up" is an improper rejection, charge away.  When the PTO screw up is, for example, an improper charge (e.g. extra claim fees, second Notice of Appeal fee after re-opening, extensions of time when I responded within 2 months of a final rejection, $180 for IDS, etc.) or an incorrect OFR, etc., I don't think the client should be charged for that.  "Great news, the PTO improperly charged you $200 for a one month extension, and I got it refunded.  Here's my bill for $150."  Doesn't seem right to me.

[midwestengineer]

I charge for fixing pto screwups.  Why wouldn't you?

I charge for fixing screw ups as well.  Just need to manage client expectations.

[BobRoberts]

Coming in late.  A lot of good information.

I suspect each person's exoerience in biglaw is different because each Biglaw is different.  I worked for an smallish IP Boutique and 2 Large (and well-known) Patent boutiques before going out on my own...

I didn't feel "lost" in the large IP boutiques, and still had limited partner oversight on my work.  They expected the Associates to "put their big boy pants on" and Bill the required hours. 

I did almost exclusively patent prosecution is some pretty hefty tech.  At the first firm, I did some litigation support (i.e., research and very limited memo drafting).  Generally, I learned the background of the heavy-tech, so at the first firm I was sort of cornered in that tech.  IT actually became like studying for final exams every day, and was difficult to bill over 7 or 7.5 hrs per day.  The times when I would do research, and even a little discovery, I would bill 12 to 14 hours in a day, and actually left pretty fresh.  Inexperience, and the "Grass is always greener" caused me to leave that firm.  The partners were generally good to work for, and though it didn't pay as much a big law, I regret leaving.

Big law 1 was pretty good, and gave a much more diverse workload re:prosecution. Learned what partners to try to avoid doing work for (by stocking up on work from the other partners).   The firm became a bit unstable after the first year, so I moved to Biglaw #2.

Biglaw #2 was slightly larger than number 1, and also gave a pretty diverse patent prosecution workload.  IT's a bit harder to get up to speed with unfamiliar tech, but gets better with time as you better see where the new inventions you get fit into the larger scheme.  Still had limited partner oversight, but some pretty free reign.  Was given some responsibility of looking over other associates work as well.  Cool, because became involved in a LARGE non-infringement opinion for a LARGE client. 

Both Big law IP boutiques were good to work for.  There were times when I would bill 140 patent prosecution billables in a month, and times where I billed 200 prosecution billables (not fun months).  Personally, for me, a couple of 200 Billable months was enough to leave Biglaw for Quality of life issues (i.e., I really wanted to see my 1 year old daughter grow up).

Don't be afraid of Biglaw, and as someone else said, manage your work load.  I would, you will learn about which partners are good to work with and which aren't.  Provide good work-product, and approach the good partners when you need work. 

Good luck!