Law School Rankings - Overall vs. IP Specialty

[longdistancerunner]

Hello, good people!

I'm trying to decide where to attend law school in the fall and I would like your opinion on how to factor in the US News & World Report rankings for overall program and IP specialty. I have a BSEE and plan on making a career in IP law. I think the rankings may be important to potential employers, so I would like to get an idea for how people view them.

School A:  Overall Rank = #15, IP Rank = Not ranked
School B:  Overall Rank = #29, IP Rank = #23
School C:  Overall Rank = #107, IP Rank = #4

If you had to choose from these three schools, which school (A, B or C) would you choose based on the rankings? Why?

Thanks!

LDR

[MYK]

Is UCLA still #15?  Anyway, I'd take #15.  The field-specific rankings are pretty much useless, from everything I've seen here and elsewhere.

[Dazed-n-confused]

^^^ What commenter MYK said about any sort of "specialty" rankings.  I don't think anyone pays attention to them except in close cases, or even if they do think about them, such specialty rankings are going to be swamped by overall school notoriety.

So your #15 and #29 schools' reputations, whatever they are, are going to swamp your #107 school just because they are first tier schools from a reputational standpoint, vs the #107 guy being a 3rd tier school.  Its #4 "IP" rank as such is, frankly, pretty much meaningless 

That said, what school fits your needs depends on what your needs are - what are your needs?

Being an EE is now and has been for several years very helpful in patent law (vs. ME, Chem, Bio, ChE, others).  So if #107 gives you a free ride whereas #15 costs you $140K in debt, and you really want to do patent prosecution, chances are #107 may be fine and may be the better overall cost/risk value for you.

OTOH, if you want to start your career in a biglaw firm, then it's likely #107 has far fewer (if any) students getting interviewed by those firms, let alone getting those jobs, and so you might have to focus on the overall higher ranks instead.   (Assuming even those 2 have strong recruitment from such firms, I don't know - this data is now available from the aba required disclosures now, check them out).

Overall, my advice to people who ask is that they should seek a sweet spot between debt and final outcome. 

So, what is it that you want to achieve?  Others may be able to better provide thoughts if we know what it is you're seeking. 

[MYK]

OTOH, if you want to start your career in a biglaw firm, then it's likely #107 has far fewer (if any) students getting interviewed by those firms, let alone getting those jobs, and so you might have to focus on the overall higher ranks instead.   (Assuming even those 2 have strong recruitment from such firms, I don't know - this data is now available from the aba required disclosures now, check them out).

The T14 cutoff was, at least in 2008, 50% biglaw/clerkships hiring.  Anything in the top 50 will have some biglaw, although it drops down to maybe 5% at the bottom.  Below that, it's negligible.

The only exception I've seen to that was a T4 (John Marshall Chicago) which had some biglaw hiring because a fair number of city firms were sending their patent agents to part-time at-night law school.  But that's a rather special case.

Disclaimer: above were my impressions from when I was trying to make a decision 7-8 years ago, pre-Not So Great Depression aka Great Financial Crisis aka "Bush's Fault".

[Confused Engineer]

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/

This is a good website that discloses employment outcomes of graduates of every ABA school and the size of firm they're working for. The #107 ranked school (SCU) actually gets a decent amount in "biglaw" for a third tier school. That's because it's in the Silicon Valley and lot of patent focused people go there. However, the unemployed number is extremely high.

[longdistancerunner]

Thanks for the replies, everyone! I'm happy to have a more realistic idea of what the rankings mean to people. There are so many factors to consider.

I understand that big law firms (501+) pay the most, but they leave their attorneys with the least amount of free time. So I'm not necessarily looking to work for a huge firm. I definitely want to go to the school where I can get the best legal education. I imagine attending a school where the classes are comfortable and charged with enthusiasm. Yes, #107 got my attention because they are located in Silicon Valley and have the high IP ranking. They have offered a nice scholarship which makes a move to California seem realistic and, being from the Midwest originally, I have always dreamed of living in California.

I have been admitted to a top 30 law school in the Midwest, but there was no scholarship offer. I've also been put on the wait list at a top 10 law school on the East Coast, but I might not get in after having to pass on my other offers.

Ultimately, I will make my decision after visiting each school. I welcome any advice you would like to provide.

Thanks again!

[midwestengineer]

I imagine attending a school where the classes are comfortable and charged with enthusiasm.

This is an unreasonable expectation.  Law schools grade on a curve and class rank largely determine what opportunities you will have after completing law school.  Grading on a curve means that even if know the material very well you may still get a B or a C whereas a equivalent level of knowledge in a non-curved grading scheme would easily get you an A.  If you've never been graded on a curve it's difficult to explain the level of competition for grades it causes.

Right now there is a massive oversupply of lawyers.  Take the time to educate yourself regarding the oversupply issue.  Next, look at the employment statistics for the schools you are considering.  Carefully determine what outcome you desire and what percentage of the students leaving that law school attains that outcome.  Lastly, circle back and consider whether it's worth taking the risk to attain that outcome by going to law school.

[khazzah]

I imagine attending a school where the classes are comfortable and charged with enthusiasm.

This is an unreasonable expectation.

If you're using "comfortable" as I think you are, this is definitely not a realistic expectation. As midwest explained, law school is COMPETITIVE, not comfortable. 

As for "enthusiasm," my own personal experience (graduated LS in 2002), is that some students were enthused about some classes. But you know, that was also my experience in Undergrad (1988).

Come to think of it, also my experience at every employer I've ever worked for: ie, some folks are enthused some of the time about some parts of the job.

The field-specific rankings are pretty much useless, from everything I've seen here and elsewhere.

Agreed. OTOH, when choosing schools you might look at how many/what type of IP classes are offered. At least as a tie breaker.

[MYK]

If you've never been graded on a curve it's difficult to explain the level of competition for grades it causes.

Someone made a really good suggestion on the forum a few years ago.  I wish it'd been made before I went to law school.

Take a bar prep course the summer before law school.

Yes, it will cost you a bunch of money.  But all of the bar prep courses cover your 1L subjects  You'll enter law school with a much better understanding of how to write essays and what you need to learn to do well.  The prep course fee is nothing compared to the tuition, fees, living expenses, and terror of three years of law school.

[khazzah]

If you've never been graded on a curve it's difficult to explain the level of competition for grades it causes.

Take a bar prep course the summer before law school. You'll enter law school with a much better understanding of how to write essays and what you need to learn to do well. 

Thinking outside the box! I like it!

I concur in part and dissent in part. (Lawyer humor.)

I think bar prep would be an eye-opener for a prospective law student. And I agree he'll learn something about the substantive material.

But I'm not sure about the "learn how to write essays". While bar review classes do include an essay component, it's really for someone *honing* their essay skills, not learning for the first time.

But here's a better idea (inspired by MYK's idea)

BARBRI has an offering tailored to incoming law students:

"A powerful preview of law school. Even before your first day of law school classes begin, we'll teach you what to expect and how to excel. Law Preview is a one-week, intensive summer prep course where you learn effective academic strategies, test-taking tips, legal research/writing and more."
http://www.lawpreview.com/

This preview course would be much better for the OP than a bar review class.

If you're good at learning on your own, here's another idea: read "Examples and Explanations" by Aspen Publishing for all six 1L classes. I did that the summer before I started law school, and having that background did help some.

[longdistancerunner]

Thanks so much for your replies, everyone! I appreciate your efforts at highlighting some harsh realities and attempting to scare me off the law school path. I know it as a necessary first step before committing to the process. Please allow me to elaborate.

I understand that law classes are graded on the curve and that this makes it extremely competitive. If I didn't have a healthy perspective on competition, I'm sure I would become a very unhealthy lawyer. Isn't the career competitive by nature of the adversarial process? If such competition has proven to be the best way to teach me how to think like a lawyer, I wouldn't want it any other way. My philosophy on competition is that it will be useful for elevating my abilities, but I cannot be so worried about what others are doing that it becomes a distraction. I can only do my best and let the chips fall where they may.

When I imagine a comfortable class, I am thinking about a comfortable seat with sufficient elbow room, power outlets for everyone and a design that makes it easy for everyone to hear their professor and classmates. When I imagine a class that is charged with enthusiasm, I am thinking about a class where everyone is focused on the discussion and ready to participate with a thoughtful contribution. After sitting in on several 1L classes at different law schools, I don't think this is unrealistic. Each class I visited had varying degrees of comfort and enthusiasm.

I like the idea of taking the law school prep course and/or bar prep course before starting law school. I read the book "Law School Confidential" last year which contained an insert for Law Preview. It seems like a great idea to me; however, I recently visited a law school where my tour guide from the admissions office mentioned that such a prep course could actually do more harm than good. Would anyone like to comment about this?

I welcome any advice or information you would like to offer.

Thanks!

[Confused Engineer]

Thanks so much for your replies, everyone! I appreciate your efforts at highlighting some harsh realities and attempting to scare me off the law school path. I know it as a necessary first step before committing to the process. Please allow me to elaborate.

I understand that law classes are graded on the curve and that this makes it extremely competitive. If I didn't have a healthy perspective on competition, I’m sure I would become a very unhealthy lawyer. Isn't the career competitive by nature of the adversarial process? If such competition has proven to be the best way to teach me how to think like a lawyer, I wouldn't want it any other way. My philosophy on competition is that it will be useful for elevating my abilities, but I cannot be so worried about what others are doing that it becomes a distraction. I can only do my best and let the chips fall where they may.

When I imagine a comfortable class, I am thinking about a comfortable seat with sufficient elbow room, power outlets for everyone and a design that makes it easy for everyone to hear their professor and classmates. When I imagine a class that is charged with enthusiasm, I am thinking about a class where everyone is focused on the discussion and ready to participate with a thoughtful contribution. After sitting in on several 1L classes at different law schools, I don’t think this is unrealistic. Each class I visited had varying degrees of comfort and enthusiasm.

I like the idea of taking the law school prep course and/or bar prep course before starting law school. I read the book “Law School Confidential” last year which contained an insert for Law Preview. It seems like a great idea to me; however, I recently visited a law school where my tour guide from the admissions office mentioned that such a prep course could actually do more harm than good. Would anyone like to comment about this?

I welcome any advice or information you would like to offer.

Thanks!

I don't see how a prep course would make you any worse off. You don't need one to succeed, that's for sure. However, as others have pointed out, it could be very helpful. The only logic I can see from the tour guide is: (1) you may develop a thinking and writing style contrary to what your professor wants. There's little merit to that IMO though. Sure, you will have to make some adjustments depending on the professor, but they're not drastic, professors tend to like similarly structured exam answers; and (2) you may burn yourself out. As to the this point, just make sure you find some to relax before the grind of 1L begins. I'd give yourself a couple weeks off.

Another thing, have you taken the patent bar yet? I think there's no better time to study/pass it than before 1L, if you can find the necessary time to study for it. However, it's not critical that you pass it so early. This is just a suggestion if you have a few months of not much going on like I did. 1L grades are much more important, so that should be your number one focus.

[MYK]

I understand that law classes are graded on the curve and that this makes it extremely competitive.

SOME classes are graded on a curve.  Small classes often aren't.  Your 1L classes will (probably) all be curved (*), with the possible exception of a "legal writing" class (often done as pass/fail).  One reason that LW is done that way is that it is usually not anonymously graded.

(*) except at Yale, where everyone is so amazing that they don't even do grades during 1L.

BTW, regarding anonymous grading, don't do anything that would compromise it.  I have heard several horror stories about students who were targeted by professors who just plain hated them.  I would also strongly urge you either not to take any classes that aren't anonymously graded, or to make damn sure that the professor in charge of such a class isn't one of the faculty psychos.

I read the book "Law School Confidential" last year which contained an insert for Law Preview. It seems like a great idea to me; however, I recently visited a law school where my tour guide from the admissions office mentioned that such a prep course could actually do more harm than good. Would anyone like to comment about this?

I didn't take one, so I can't compare.  The comments I saw on prelaw boards tended to be negative about these classes, because they're usually just a week or two and don't give much preparation for the money spent.  Other comments suggested that students might get confused between the version of the law that their professor teaches and the education given in these classes, and so give what the professor would look on as "wrong answers" on the exam.  The same is true of taking a bar exam class, though.

There was a somewhat useful (to me) book on bar exam essay writing, consisting of about 100 fact patterns and essay answers.  I'll try to find the name for you.  I wish I'd understood from the beginning that we were supposed to EXPLORE the various avenues and explain why some of them don't apply, rather than just go down the obvious path to the right answer.

[longdistancerunner]

This is great information! I like the idea of taking the patent bar before law school starts. Is there a prep course you would recommend? When do most law students take the patent bar exam?

I have another rankings related question. I just visited the school currently ranked #29 overall /#23 IP and it was very nice. I was excited to be admitted to this program and they require a decision by April 1st. I was added to the wait list for the school currently ranked #7 overall/#19 IP. They will not begin reviewing wait listed candidates until mid-May. If you were in this same situation, would you hold out for the slim chance of being admitted to #7 or commit to the sure thing at #29?

I welcome any advice you would like to offer.

Thanks!

[MYK]

What happens if you accept the offer from #29 and later change your mind?  Are you just out a deposit, or are you out three years of tuition?  Do they publish your name on a list of people who got into better schools and turned them down?

My memory of all of that is vague, but I seem to remember having to put down a nonrefundable deposit of about $2000.  If you get accepted to #7, frankly, that loss is well worth the significantly improved job prospects.  I don't recall any further sanctions.  (After all, #29 will then admit a waitlisted candidate of their own to fill the spot.)