Working for the USPTO

[steelie]

How you are still at the PTO boggles the mind, steelie.

I worked in patent prosecution before I joined the PTO, and many of my regular contacts at the PTO did also.  So I forget that there are people examining at the PTO who started with no idea what a patent is or what the laws are or how they are used by businesses.  Many of those examiners, years later, still have a fairly limited idea what a patent is, what the laws are, and where patents fit into a business plan.  Not a judgment, per se, but more of an observation.

Sure. However, it's worse than that.

Hoteling for so long, and rarely interacting with anything going on there. Who knows what's happening.

I only heard about the time investigation like a year after it was over.

[openpatent]

Apparently, examiner quirkiness isn't limited to the US. Here's lunch time at the JPO.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-xBNnNX3BeU

😅🤓🤓🤓

[snapshot]

How you are still at the PTO boggles the mind, steelie.

no OT, no bonuses, 95% , had oral, and written warnings, burn vacation to make production, and used "red zone" a few times

that's what it takes to do high quality work, and still make it a reasonable job

That's not how the job is supposed to work, really.

[fewyearsin]

How you are still at the PTO boggles the mind, steelie.

no OT, no bonuses, 95% , had oral, and written warnings, burn vacation to make production, and used "red zone" a few times

that's what it takes to do high quality work, and still make it a reasonable job

That's not how the job is supposed to work, really.

That's not really how any job is supposed to work.  Attorneys that barely hit their billable targets, or who miss them by just enough to not get fired, are not in good shape.  Similarly with just about any job, if you are barely scraping by, avoiding getting fired as your goal, you are unlikely to be well suited for the position.

That said, only steelie knows steelie's unique circumstances, and maybe examining is the best job for steelie, even if it isn't a great job for steelie.  Or maybe steelie is genuinely turning out some of the most amazing examining work and selflessly devoting nights and weekends to the task.

[steelie]

if you are barely scraping by, avoiding getting fired as your goal, you are unlikely to be well suited for the position.

It's the other way around.

It's the examiners doing bonuses/overtime/PAP "outstanding" that are less likely to make it long term as an examiner.

These examiner face "burn out" and hatred of the job.

When I first started my mentor told me stories how GS-13 is when "quality examiners" quit. At that GS level, it becomes so overwhelming for them to keep up the high quality work that they could do at lower GS levels, their stress increases, they have to work a lot of VOT (voluntary non-paid overtime), and eventually it becomes too much for them, and they have to leave.

The solution he told me was to become a "marginal employee",  which I totally embraced.

[snapshot]

That is complete and utter BS.

[steelie]

That is complete and utter BS.

There was an examiner on this forum just last week, saying the same thing. Wondering whether he/she should quit because he/she couldn't do quality work at the higher GS level.

You don't seem to know much.

[snapshot]

I know plenty.  Like that it is pointless to continue this conversation with you.

[lazyexaminer]

I agree with snapshot, I also know plenty, and I'll leave it at that.

[steelie]

I agree with snapshot, I also know plenty, and I'll leave it at that.

Ok.

Well, leaving it on a positive note.

PTO Management & POPA have been working on this issue for a year with the new time evaluation.

Hopefully, at least some examiners will be given more examining time!!!!

[Feta Cheese]

if you are barely scraping by, avoiding getting fired as your goal, you are unlikely to be well suited for the position.

It's the other way around.

It's the examiners doing bonuses/overtime/PAP "outstanding" that are less likely to make it long term as an examiner.

These examiner face "burn out" and hatred of the job.

When I first started my mentor told me stories how GS-13 is when "quality examiners" quit. At that GS level, it becomes so overwhelming for them to keep up the high quality work that they could do at lower GS levels, their stress increases, they have to work a lot of VOT (voluntary non-paid overtime), and eventually it becomes too much for them, and they have to leave.

The solution he told me was to become a "marginal employee",  which I totally embraced.

That doesn't even make any sense. I know plenty of examiners who get commendable/outstanding, never work OT (voluntary or otherwise), only care about DM bonuses bc that is low hanging fruit they can grab without needing to do 'extra' work, and never get stressed out except when they get those cases which seem plainly obvious or done before but all searches turn up empty.

If you can do this job at the bare minimum while putting forth low effort it doesn't take much to add just a little more effort and be outstanding; the difference is like an extra FOAM every biweek or something and since you're already doing "low quality" work it's not like that extra FOAM is going to put you through the wringer. I see no advantage in working at 70% to be "marginal" when you could work at 80% and look like a star employee

Hopefully, at least some examiners will be given more examining time!!!!

The time re-evaluation is being done on recommendation after OIG's investigation into time and attendance abuse hypothesized that the quota system was low for some AU's and too high for others. I feel like you could just as easily be given less examining time...

[steelie]

if you are barely scraping by, avoiding getting fired as your goal, you are unlikely to be well suited for the position.

It's the other way around.

It's the examiners doing bonuses/overtime/PAP "outstanding" that are less likely to make it long term as an examiner.

These examiner face "burn out" and hatred of the job.

When I first started my mentor told me stories how GS-13 is when "quality examiners" quit. At that GS level, it becomes so overwhelming for them to keep up the high quality work that they could do at lower GS levels, their stress increases, they have to work a lot of VOT (voluntary non-paid overtime), and eventually it becomes too much for them, and they have to leave.

The solution he told me was to become a "marginal employee",  which I totally embraced.

That doesn't even make any sense. I know plenty of examiners who get commendable/outstanding, never work OT (voluntary or otherwise), only care about DM bonuses bc that is low hanging fruit they can grab without needing to do 'extra' work, and never get stressed out except when they get those cases which seem plainly obvious or done before but all searches turn up empty.

I said "long term".  How many do you know that make it 20+ years as an examiner? Very few, almost none probably?

In my AU area, out of about maybe 80 non-SPE examiners, only maybe five examiners, have employee IDs under 80,000.

12-15 years experience and you're the most the most senior examiner in the unit.

Remember, the few people that you see make it 20+ years are a small sliver of the total pool of people that tried to make it, so when you do the math, you need to include all the people that quit or were fired from that position during that time.

So, at least historically in my AU area, I think the math shows you have like a 5% chance of making it 20+ years as a non-SPE examiner.

I suspect the majority succumb to "production problems" that force them out.

[steelie]

I thought this chart was interesting ...it shows the total patent examiners per month
https://www.uspto.gov/corda/dashboards/patents/kpis/kpiExaminers.kpixml#

[lazyexaminer]

I said "long term".  How many do you know that make it 20+ years as an examiner? Very few, almost none probably?

In my AU area, out of about maybe 80 non-SPE examiners, only maybe five examiners, have employee IDs under 80,000.

12-15 years experience and you're the most the most senior examiner in the unit.

Remember, the few people that you see make it 20+ years are a small sliver of the total pool of people that tried to make it, so when you do the math, you need to include all the people that quit or were fired from that position during that time.

So, at least historically in my AU area, I think the math shows you have like a 5% chance of making it 20+ years as a non-SPE examiner.

I suspect the majority succumb to "production problems" that force them out.

I'm not sure what you mean by "AU area" (workgroup maybe?) but I am just going to look at my old AU since I know when people came on.

When I started (between 15-20 years ago) my art had about 10-12 examiners, 3 very long term primaries of like 30-40 years experience, 1 brand new primary, and the rest varying junior levels.

Within 4 years all the primaries had left, the old ones retired and the young one moved away for a spouse's job (no telework back then). A number of new examiners were hired, so we had like 12-15 junior examiners without sig authority and around 5 years experience or less. This was NOT normal.

Examiners left here and there, things happen, but today there are 15 examiners in the AU and 12 of them have been at the Office over 10 years. 4 have been here over 15 years.

Today, this is a vastly different picture than you are painting. From what I've seen, at least in arts like this one, I think my picture is more accurate--a lot of examiners sticking around long term. Attrition has been very low for some time, for example, and hoteling is a big perk that the workforce has embraced. And as people around here are keen to point out, once you've been an examiner for 10 years you aren't likely to go outside and make anything near the same salary/benefits absent unusual circumstances. In my experience, once you make primary you are here for a while, as the autonomy makes everything better and outside options continue to dry up.

You've said you don't get out or talk to anyone much...maybe your AU or group is an outlier, like mine was 12 years ago. But like I said before, it's tough to compare different areas of the office. If these people were only allowing 5-10 cases a year then perhaps more would quit. Anyway, I just wanted to present a different side, especially since a lot of new or potential hires look at this thread. Everyone wants more time, but I don't think examiner life is as negative as you are portraying such that 95% are burning out.

[steelie]

Today, this is a vastly different picture than you are painting. From what I've seen, at least in arts like this one, I think my picture is more accurate--a lot of examiners sticking around long term.

Sure. However, you might be in an "allowance unit".

Some units only have a 0-10% allowance rate.

I think it's been 3 years since I had a "first action allowance".

I think the time evaluation needs to look at overtime and bonus records, and see which AU get them. I haven't got the production bonus in like 8 years.