dazed and confused...who gets what

[AnomalyJ]

I am a sing/songwriter. I participate in an online music community where musicians post their creations for collaborations and free downloading.

I have created a number of songs from many members music tracks.
I post the songs to the site for download.
I also post the a capella versions.
I have a couple of questions:

1. For the songs I create with other members music, who owns what? Is this a co-writer thing? Do I own lyrics and melody or is this shared since I used 'their' musical track to create a song?

2. Regarding the a capella, another member downloads the a capella, loads it to his personal song, and now wants me to sign a songwriting 50/50 split? huh??

3. If I use one of these songs in a competition and win something, who do I owe and if so what percentage?

Any advise will be helpful as i am googling everything and trying to find my way.

Thanks,
AJ

[Kaitlin]

Hi AJ,

I'm not that experienced in the music business and so can't give you much explicit direction, but I can lay out some basics in wide brush strokes which may help you in your research while you wait for someone more knowledgeable about the music business to jump in. 

Basic principle one:  if you create an original work of authorship (music, poetry, art) in a fixed medium, then you have a copyright in it.
Two:  If someone else uses your work to make a new work, that's a "derivative work".  They need your permission to make the derivative work, and may pay you for the privilege, but the new work is theirs.  I do not believe this is normally described as co-created.  If you set out to work on the creation together, or simultaneously contribute to the final creation, that would be another matter.

So you might want to add "derivative work" to whatever you've been googling.  (And try "co-author" instead of "co-writer".)

"License" is another term to add -- referring to various sorts of permissions people can negotiate with others, in this case to permit the use of copyrighted works. 

Licenses can be explicit or implied.  Conceivably, if people are posting music in an online forum where it's a free-for-all, there may be an implied license to use the works there to make new derivative works.  It sounds like that could be what goes on, from your description.  Or there may be an explicit license: Is there a legal agreement or disclaimer at the site?  If there is, it should set out the terms for using the site to post material.  You may give up your right to control copies made from your works (giving a nonexclusive license to use your work to anyone else using the site).  Or it may set out other arrangements.  Make sure you read any "terms of use" thoroughly. 

2. Regarding the a capella, another member downloads the a capella, loads it to his personal song, and now wants me to sign a songwriting 50/50 split? huh??

I'm afraid I don't understand what it means to "load" something to one's "personal song" in your sentence above.  And I'm not sure how your singing a cappella (that is, your voice alone) could be used by someone else in a song he's singing, if that's what you meant.  Did you sing someone else's work a cappella? Did another person use your singing as part of a work he or she created? 

3. If I use one of these songs in a competition and win something, who do I owe and if so what percentage?

You ask about using the works in a competition and who gets the proceeds... but you need to be concerned about ownership before there's any competition.  (By merely performing someone else's work in public it is possible to infringe their copyright, in the absence of a license or fair use.*) 

If the work is truly co-authored, then whatever agreement you have with the other author about ownership would probably determine the percentages by which who would get what in a competition--provided the competition related to the authorship of the work. 
If the competition related only to how well the singers perform, then I would expect the winnings would only go to the performers. 

(*Spontaneously singing "Country Roads" on a trip with friends would be a "fair use".  Performing it on a record would require permission from the copyright holder.  Talent show performance? probably fair use.  Making it part of the repertoire of a professional performer?  I'm not sure, plenty of singers have performed other people's songs in local coffee houses without worrying about licenses, but it may be that they were just under the radar in the past.) 

[AnomalyJ]

Hey Kaitlin,

First off thanks so much for the reply.
The site I am referring to is Looperman.com, it's royalty free loops and a capellas for community users.
The terms of use are that if you plan to use anything in a commerical way you need to get permission from the author, and that any a capella have to be something you created and it is considered copy righted. other than that its up to you to do what ever you like with the music you download.

Term 'Load' just referring to me uploading a MP3 of my singing a song I wrote, mostly it's the a capella of a song I created listening to another memebers musical track. Other memebers are free to download my singing and add it to one of their own music tracks. Which happen frequently, mostly in club mixes and things and alot of it is overseas users.

Thanks for the breakdown on fair use - I just wanted to make sure I was being fair in my dealings. There is nice size prize and I just thought it would only be fair to give something to the person's track that inspired me to create such a beautiful song. (Though I probably won't win..lol)

Again thanks so much.

AJ









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[Kaitlin]

Again a caution, AJ.  This isn't my real area so don't be overly confident re my thoughts on the matter.  
There may be others with more music/entertainment law experience able and willing to jump in after the weekend. 

BTW, your use of the term a cappella as a noun instead of an adverb is a new one to me, perhaps it's peculiar to the online arena. 
And re the "a cappellas": If you are singing a tune someone else wrote, then your a cappella rendition is still a rendition of their (copyrighted) work.  In other words, the fact that you are singing a tune rather than playing it with an instrument or a midi file, doesn't change the fact that it's the other guy's tune.  (Of course, as noted, your online community can set its own rules which determine whether or not you get to use another member's work for free and when you have to pay.)

And incidentally, anything you create is not only considered copyrighted at that site, it IS copyrighted -- assuming it's an original work of authorship.  There's an automatic common law copyright that exists from the get-go, once the work is recorded or otherwise fixed.  Registering with the copyright office gets you better protection, but the copyright itself is there from creation nowadays.

Good luck!

PS  Just checked out the looperman site.  Noted this under the faq's, which seems to be the right approach to me:
"Should you wish to use a track you find on looperman.com in some way you must contact the person who wrote the track and seek permission. In most cases you would be expected to pay some sort of licence fee to use someone's track but this situation is unique to every member and is something you must come to an agreement to between you."

[AnomalyJ]

Well I sure appreciate your taking time to help me.

As far as the way I am using the term  'a cappella' here's a breakdown:
Basically I download an instrumental track that another member created
I create lyrics and melody to the instrumental
I then record myself singing the song.
Then I upload the 'new' song I created from their instrumental piece to the site.
Then I will take the a cappella verision of the song I created from the other memebers instrumental and load that to the a capella section.
There other members take my 'pella' and make another strangely different song....I know that a big circle but it the world of looperville.lol.

Hope this clears it up a bit.
Take care,
AJ

BTW, your use of the term a cappella as a noun instead of an adverb is a new one to me, perhaps it's peculiar to the online arena. 

[Kaitlin]

If your new "pella" has its own tune and lyrics and only relied on the other track for inspiration -- or even a bit more, if just following whatever beat and/or chord progressions they used -- then it sounds to me, IMHO, like you've got a new work of authorship.  But I'll defer to others more experienced in copyright/entertainment law on this.

[AnomalyJ]

we must be on the right track, i was thinking the same thing  on my drive home.
If my 'pella' is able to stand on it's own and be used in something totally different with no addtions, the other person song is really a remix of the 'song' i created.  cool.

Here is a sample of a guys beat is used, the pella and a remix someone did, if you would like to check it out:

The Instrumental : Looking back by : Daniel Mathers : http://www.looperman.com/tracks_detail.php?tid=19890

The Created Song : I'm Sorry by AnomalyJ :http://www.looperman.com/acapellas_detail.php?aid=533

The Remix : 3rd Borns by Rah : http://www.looperman.com/tracks_detail.php?tid=28051

[c.hugan]

I am a sing/songwriter. I participate in an online music community where musicians post their creations for collaborations and free downloading.

I have created a number of songs from many members music tracks.
I post the songs to the site for download.
I also post the a capella versions.
I have a couple of questions:

1. For the songs I create with other members music, who owns what? Is this a co-writer thing? Do I own lyrics and melody or is this shared since I used 'their' musical track to create a song?

It sounds as if you intended to merge your part to make a single work.  If so, a joint work is created and each author shares ownership of the copyright equally (absent an agreement stating otherwise).

Also, any joint owner of a copyright can license it (non-exclusively), but must account to the others for any profits.  I assume this would apply to prize winnings, though I truthfully have never researched the issue.

Chris
http://nashvegaslawyer.wordpress.com/

[AnomalyJ]

Thanks for clearing that up, I think the best thing to do is just to do a 50/50 split, because the song would have never came about without the musical inspriation, just seems fair to me.  thanks again. aj