Intellectual Property Forum

Patents => Becoming a Patent Agent/Lawyer => Topic started by: John Watts on 07-26-04 at 11:26 pm

Title: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: John Watts on 07-26-04 at 11:26 pm
Any1 else take the new patent bar exam.  I took it today and it seemed *much* more difficult than the previous exams.  I only missed 5 questions on the oct 2003 exam w/o using the MPEP...I think I would be lucky to pass this new exam....it was heavily focused on obscure PCT facts, had some strictly biotech questions regarding sequence listings that I though was off-limits, and completely missed the traditional core concepts....not many repeats and quite of few question seemed to be poorly written....

The searchable MPEP seemed to freeze while keyword searching, making it near impossible to locate the answers to the obscure questions in the MPEP in the time allotted...

I'm hoping I just got a hard version of the exam....any1 else take it yet?  Supposedly I will find out if I passed in 2 weeks....
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Ben L on 07-27-04 at 07:47 pm
I'm scheduled to take the exam on August 2nd.  I'm a little more nervous after reading your comments.  

Do you suggest that I study the PCT and biotech sections with my remaining 5 days?  How many questions do you think related to PCT and/or biotech?

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: zb35160 on 07-28-04 at 08:50 am
John, thanks for sharing your experience.  Can you help address a couple more q's that will be beneficial for us soon-to-be test takers?

Did the level of difficulty seem to be the same in the AM vs. PM?

Was majority of the q's fairly short and not fact-pattern based?

Were there still a lot of q's from chapter 700 and 2100?

Did the searchable MPEP allow you to search within a particular chapter?

Thanks!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 07-28-04 at 06:20 pm
When I took the patent bar exam in April 2003, I noticed that
there was an emphasis on PCT questions over old exams (back to 2000)
that I worked before taking the test.  I'm not surprised to
hear that the trend has continued.

The biotech stuff seems a little unfair, but some biotech
questions aren't really bio questions, just regular old
patent law using life science as the subject matter.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Scott Evans on 07-29-04 at 07:59 am
I would have to agree with the previous post from Mr. Watts.  This was probably the most difficult test since the one administered in April 2001.  There was a heavy concentration on PCT-related material and they definitely reached up to some high, dusty shelves for some of the more obscure material.  It seemed like 102(e) also popped up a lot more than usual.  If the rumor about using all old questions is true, then most of those questions came from tests that were more than 5 years old.
One thing that made this test a nuisance was the online MPEP.  I also had a freeze up during a search, which ended up costing me about ten minutes.  My biggest complaint revolves around the computers at Prometric.  You would think that a company whose focus is COMPUTER-based testing would have equipment that is somewhat up-to-date.  The computer I was using looked like it was made in the mid-90s and the small, fuzzy monitor made reading the manual a chore.  The mouse didn't even have a scroll wheel, so manual searching took a lot longer than one would expect.  (I didn't dare use the search function again after my initial lockup)
My advice to test takers:
1. PCT - know it, especially deadlines
2. Find a college kid who is throwing out the desktop computer that they inherited from an older sibling and buy it from them for 50 bucks.  Take it home, smear some vaseline on the monitor and attach a couple of powerful magnets to the side.  Practice looking up things in the MPEP under these conditions to acclimate yourself to what you may see on test day.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: ping yu on 07-29-04 at 09:51 am
Good morning! I am your new friend-Ping, a  student.  I am planning to take this examination, but how can I get one copy of test in 2004 and how you think to pass this examination help you morr job opportunities?

I am looking forward to hearing from you.
Ping
Title: Improving on Prometric
Post by: blogtim on 07-29-04 at 10:52 am
The test questions are fixed, but having taken the test, do you have any recommendations (besides the old computer) on how the interface could be improved?  How was the interface anyway?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Scott Evans on 07-29-04 at 12:50 pm
I suppose I used a bit of hyperbole in my last posting, but the interface could definitely be improved.  These would be my suggestions:
1. Barring a separate monitor to look up the MPEP, it would be nice to have at least a 17" screen and the ability to split-screen the test and the MPEP.  As you know, there are a lot of list-based questions that require you to check the given answers against requirements for submissions.  Right now, you're forced to find the correct section of the MPEP, then flip back and forth between the test and manual to make comparisons.  The alternative is copying the list manually.  You can reduce the size of the MPEP window and move it around, but that makes it unbearably difficult to read and still takes time.
2. The MPEP was pretty grainy on screen and hard on the eyes, which begins to take its toll after the first two hours.  If they're going to make everyone look up stuff electronically, they need to fix the "find" function.  My computer locked up during a search in the first hour of the exam and needed to be rebooted.  I didn't dare use the search function for the rest of the test.  Personally, I would love to see Prometric ante up for a few paper copies of the MPEP and give you the option of using that.  I realize this is probably not Prometric's call and that the logistics would be a pain because of the threat that people would mark them up, but I would think there would be a way to work around that.  (perhaps giving people the option to purchase a $20 throwaway paperback version)
3. continued in next post
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: BenL on 07-29-04 at 01:21 pm
Scott,
Are you able to skip questions and/or mark questions to return to?  Also, is the MPEP searchable in its entirety as one pdf, or by chapter?

I'm taking the test at the main prometrics in New York City.  I called them this morning and they assured me that all their computers are fairly new.  But, I will be the first one taking it at their site, so they are not aware of problems with the MPEP, yet.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Scott Evans on 07-29-04 at 01:56 pm
3. Prometric needs to get mice with the scroll wheel.  Since the search function torpedoed my computer, I was forced to scroll around quite a bit to find specific topics.  Using the sliding scroll bars for this is a nuisance.

Sidenote tip:  The scroll bar for the table of contents is the disappearing kind that only shows up when you move your mouse over the right edge of the column for a couple of seconds.  Perhaps someone more computer savvy would have recognized that right away, but I didn't.  I was forced to scroll through many pages to get to the proper section until I found this out.  When I realized the scroll was there, I felt like a real dimwit.  I only hope others may learn from my ignorance.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: blogtim on 07-29-04 at 01:58 pm
That's really annoying.  Scott, was the manual in chapters or in one big pdf?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: BenL on 07-29-04 at 02:27 pm
This link might help answer many of our questions...

http://www.prometric.com/demos/uspto/starthere.htm

I just found this link through google.  I don't know why the USPTO or Prometrics didn't publicize this.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: blogtim on 07-29-04 at 10:28 pm
I went through the sample exam... or actually, I went through the tutorial.  At the end of the tutorial, it redirected me to a page which I assumed would have normally been the test (or the sample test).  Instead, I got:

You are not authorized to view this page
You might not have permission to view this directory or page using the credentials you supplied.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you believe you should be able to view this directory or page, please try to contact the Web site by using any e-mail address or phone number that may be listed on the www.prometric.com home page.

You can click  Search to look for information on the Internet.

---

I can just see this happening for the real thing.



HTTP Error 403 - Forbidden
Internet Explorer  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Scott Evans on 07-30-04 at 06:32 am
The MPEP is searchable by chapter.  It is also broken down by section and subsection after you enter each chapter.

You can can mark questions for later review, which is a nice feature.  At any time during the test you can hit the "Review" button and see which questions you have marked and whether there are any you haven't answered yet.  With all of my whining about the online MPEP, I failed to give Prometric credit for the actual test setup, which is actually straightforward and relatively user-friendly.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Scott Evans on 07-30-04 at 06:37 am
You can also skip questions, but I preferred to make a quick guess and mark the question for review.  That way if there isn't enough time to get back to it, you don't have to worry about inadvertantly leaving a question unanswered.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: John Watts on 07-30-04 at 02:02 pm
I think this new exam will have one of the lowest passing rates in recent memory....

After they fix the MPEP issues, I think the exam will be much more manageable....my advice is to wait a couple weeks until all the bugs get worked out...\\

I'm crossing my fingers and praying i passed....
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Scott Evans on 07-30-04 at 05:38 pm
I agree.  If the pass rate exceeds 40% I will be amazed.  Shoot one my way and I'll say one for you.  Good luck.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: zb35160 on 07-31-04 at 01:23 pm
Scott and John, can you guys help address these couple of q's?  Thanks!

Did the level of difficulty seem to be the same in the AM vs. PM?

Was majority of the q's fairly short and not fact-pattern based?

Were there still a lot of q's from chapter 700 and 2100?

How about the number of repeats?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: John Watts on 07-31-04 at 05:51 pm
No 2 questions use the same fact pattern...AM and PM seemed to be about equal difficulty....I am sure that questions are selected from a question bank so the difficulty of the AM/PM sections is irrelevent and will vary test to test...and if you just know 700 and 2100 you will not get more than 35% of the questions correct....my exam was heavy on PCT/PTO officials/biotechnology/appeal chapters...which is nothing like preceding exams...  again they probably have a question bank of about 300 questions so your exam may be nothing like my exam...


Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: BenL on 08-02-04 at 04:11 pm
I just took the exam.  I was given a fairly new computer, but it still couldn't handle the MPEP "find again" function.  Every time I searched a key word and then hit "find again" to find the next occurence, my computer crashed.  The first time, it took them 45 minutes to recover my data.  After 3 times, they said that I should reschedule my test, or avoid using "find again."  

As far as the content, it was definitely different than past exams.  I had many PCT questions, and even a chapter 900 question on how the examiners search for prior art.  Although, I would guess that I had 10 to 15 repeat questions from old exams.

I would probably recommend waiting at least a few weeks before the bugs are worked out.  Good luck!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Otto on 08-03-04 at 10:48 am
My thanks to those of you who have been providing a heads-up of what to expect on the new USPTO exam- especially with respect to the lousy online MPEP.  This is of extreme interest to me, as I sent my application off to the PTO last week.

After reading your posts and also talking to a friend whose colleague had just taken the exam and reported having problems with the search function on the MPEP, I decided to call the OED and ask them about it- I just finished said call about three minutes ago.

I was told that they DO know about the issues, they are working on them,  and they do not know exactly when the issue will be resolved.  Not the most useful information, but at least we now know they are very aware of the problem.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Iris Mok on 08-03-04 at 03:00 pm
I just finished my exam today.  Due to all the problems I heard from the postings, I did not use the search function, but merely search the portions that I felt was relevant.  The viewer was very easy to use and very fast on the computer I used. I like the fact that I can line up the viewer along with question so I can compare to the answers.  Kudos to prometric.
As to the exam, I felt that it was harder than the previous exams.  I also do not have a lot of repeat questions compared to some of the older exams.  I encounter alot of PCT, reexam, Appeal, 102/103 and assignments.  I only have one PTO official related question and no biotech questions.  Also, the second part of the exam is harder for me than the first part of the exam.  I didn't have quite as much time to review it.  However, I do like the mark and review mark function.  I wish we can get real time score though. Hope this will help future test takers.
Iris  ;)
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Tom Briscoe on 08-03-04 at 04:01 pm
The demo shows MPEP chapter 500.

Are all chapters of the MPEP available? (as show at http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/)

Specifically, is the MPEP index one of the selectable chapters?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Tom Briscoe on 08-03-04 at 04:09 pm
Also what about the appendices? L, R, etc.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: BenL on 08-03-04 at 07:02 pm
From what I remember, the complete MPEP is available.   The laws and rules were definitely there.  Not sure about the index.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Iris on 08-05-04 at 07:30 am
Yes, index was the last choice.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: John Watts on 08-05-04 at 10:27 am
Everything in the MPEP was 'available' including indexes, apendicies, and even some PCT articles and court decisions if you looked closely enough....

The questions being more difficult than previous exams, the inability to take notes, markups, etc. into the exam, and the inadequte ability to search/view the MPEP is going to make it very difficult for the first batch of test takers to pass...I could see myself getting as little as 7 wrong and as much as 40 wrong...its difficult to tell since I was unable to verify my answer with the MPEP during the exam w/o it frreezing...

Anyways, results hopefully will be sent as promised (2 weeks after your test date).  Good Luck to all...

J. Watts

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: David Givens on 08-05-04 at 11:18 am
John,

In your first posting on the new exam, you mentioned that you are supposed to get the results in 2 weeks.  I have been hearing 6 weeks but would be very glad to get results earlier.  (I took the test July 28.)  Where did you hear the 2-week target?

Many thanks,

David Givens
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Darius on 08-05-04 at 12:37 pm
For those who took the exam or are doing practice exams...

It seems to me that I've been finishing 3 hour practice exam segments in about 2 hours, which includes time spent using a PDF MPEP version i got from my home study course.

The main reason for this is because of the abundancy of reused questions that I've seen before which I answer in about 20 seconds.

Do any of you who took the exam feel like most of their test questions were brand new and therefore time consuming?

And I think the questions was asked before, did test takers experience that they were getting straight foward rule based questions such as "which is not in accordance with USPTO practice..." or were fact pattern based story type questions common as well?

I plan to take this exam right before school starts, so August 20. Anyone think it would be prudent to put this off before the kinks are worked out of the system or just to get it over with?

Thanks!

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Jahn Watts on 08-05-04 at 05:59 pm
If you participated in the optional survey at the end of the exam it stated that you should receive your results in 2 weeks, not 6.  I also asked the Prometric personnel and the notes they have on the exam also states that scores will be mailed in 2 weeks after taking the exam..
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: John Watts on 08-05-04 at 06:25 pm
Darius,

I actually did a first pass of the questions, answering about 70-80 % of the question in 1.5 hours.  I then used the remaining 1.5 hours to answer the remaining questions and recheck all the questions again...I was able to accomplish this with about 5 minutes to spare on each section...since searching the MPEP was impossible, I wasn't able to verify many of the questions like I wish I was able to do...

I prepared quite a bit so about half of the questions I *thought* I knew instantly, but after I got home and was able to search the PDF, I realized that there were a lot of "tricky" questions with very similiar answer choices where perhaps the answer choice I selected was not the "best" answer, allbeit a perfectly valid answer.

There are fact-based, story line questions and straight 'which of the following does not comply with the whatever requirement' type...proabaly more long fact-based questions...and of course there are some poorly wriiten questions in which you won't be able to understand the facts provided...

I remember one question in particulr had a fact pattern that stated 'the sole inventor of the subject matter died before executing the oath.'  Then later on it states 'Inventor Ivanna signed the oath.'  Is Inventor Ivanna the inventor, or some1 with propritary interest, or just a random person...it never said...the inventor is supposedly dead...so the question seems inconsistent...anyways I spent way too long re-reading the question like 20 times to no avail...it just was a poorly written question...

anyways good luck...I think we will all need it :-)  If I took the test again with the same questions I'm sure I'd pass now after reading the biotechnology section/PTO official sections again...those questions really got me...hopefully your test will be more straightforward...

J. Watts

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: jay on 08-05-04 at 08:46 pm
I've been getting about 75% on the 2001 and 2002 exams, and I have nothing else to do but to study for this exam these days.  I was gonna schedule it for August 17th, but do you think I should spend more time studying?  what should I do to improve my score?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Darius on 08-05-04 at 10:39 pm
Thanks for the post John, I appreciate it. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that all you first rounders pass the exam!

As for Jay's post - I think we're in the same boat. I still rely heavily on the MPEP because there is just no way I'm going to memorize certain details necessary to discern between closely worded answer choices. At this point, I'm still taking practice exams, the most recent ones are priority, and time permitting, older ones pre 2001.

I'm not exactly sure what study course you are using, but I have patbar.com, and it comes with two nicely condensed guides (one is a FAQ, and one is a last minute type "outline"), each about 200 pages (and this is "condensed!!") - it also seems that the answers I'm getting wrong on the practice tests are straight in these guides. So I guess the best thing to do is just read and re-read these damn guides until test day to hammer in certain details so things become more instinctive.

My main concern is the searchability of the MPEP which I rely on. If you think you've made a diligent effort to prepare over the summer, you might as well take it. I don't know what your situation is, but 2L starts for me the following week (8/23), and with Law Review starting already and other random loose ends before classes start, I definitely want to take this test 3rd week of August. I'm sure if you could wait a few weeks, it might be better to have the computer kinks worked out.

Take people's advice here and make sure you know PCT, re-examination, reissue and a little of biotech.

This is just my opinion, but hope it helps.

D
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: jay on 08-06-04 at 08:48 pm
For those who have taken the exam
(and those who will be taking the exam soon), do you guys want to petition to USPTO regarding the current condition for the computerized patent bar exam?  Obviously the "find" function for MPEP works poorly, enough to crash the computer.  And, I belive most of us rely heavily on MPEP to go thru many of the exam questions.  What do you guys think?

in reply to Darius, I'll be a 1L this fall, and I wanted to take the patent bar before the classes start.  but, I don't know if I'll be ready on time.  got only 10more days to study, and I can barely get over 70%.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: d232 on 08-07-04 at 12:58 pm
Concerning posts about PTO officials being heavily tested, do you mean conduct of USPTO employees, or which official is responsible for what?

Is there a specific chapter that this is in or search terms that would help?

Thanks!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: BenL on 08-09-04 at 05:57 am
In response to Jay, the USPTO is definitely aware of the problems.  After I took the exam, prometrics filed a report with the USPTO detailing the problems that occurred.  Also, after the exam you are prompted to fill out an online survey and submit comments.  

Those who take the exam and don't pass may be able to petition based on problems with the test, but I don't think there is much you can do before taking it.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: David Givens on 08-09-04 at 12:14 pm
I called the PTO today to confirm whether test results will be mailed 2 or 6 weeks after the exam.  The PTO confirmed that results will be mailed 6 weeks after the exam.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: jay on 08-09-04 at 05:40 pm
called USPTO today regarding the problems with search function on MPEP.  the lady said they're working on the permanent solution, and don't know how long it'll take till everything's resolved.  A temporary solution would be to press a space bar to unfreeze(?) but I didn't know what she meant by this.  I was gonna take it next week, but I might just wait till September.  hopefully the beginning of 1L first semester won't get in the way of patent bar prep.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: John Watts on 08-09-04 at 07:36 pm
6 weeks is a long time and, in all honestly, my score would have been at least 5 points higher if I was able to search the MPEP properly...I already told the PTO this and they stated that they will do everything they can to assist those who had difficulty with the new format and beleive that their scores were adversely affected...I don't know what this means, but maybe we will get a reduced fee for a retake if we don't pass...

and for those taking the exam...I was getting well over 80% on past exams, and I still think I would be lucky to pass this new computerized one....

I'm also starting law school in a couple weeks....I should have taken the exam last year!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Simon on 08-11-04 at 06:46 am
Does the new format not effectively make it much easier to become a patent agent since the question bank is the same for every time the test is given?  Even if the question bank is 300 questions, the second time you take the exam (which could be pretty much as soon as you want, right?), 33 of the questions should be repeats!  The third time,  55,  and the fourth time, 70?

If there are no limits as to how often a person can retake it, it seems that this makes it much easier for someone to pass the exam just by throwing some time and money at it, without really knowing the material.  Is this not the case?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Otto on 08-11-04 at 03:47 pm
USPTO ADDRESSES ISSUE WITH SEARCHABLE MPEP:

I just logged on to the OED website and saw this:  

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/testing_problem.html
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Sharon on 08-15-04 at 12:54 pm
I'll be taking the exam in the next two weeks and I'm interested in any feedback for test sites in the NYC area.  My closest test site is in with a Huntingdon or Sylvan learning center (like for afterschool tutoring for kids), and I can't imagine it being a good environment.  Any suggestions concerning which sites have newer computers, visible screens etc.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Simon on 08-15-04 at 08:34 pm
The testing center in brooklyn heights, co-located with Sylvan was VERY nice and professional.  There were no noisy kids around or anything of that sort.  The MPEP worked quickly and the monitors were clear, although they flickered visibly because of low refresh rates. You'll be asked to put everything you have with you into a relatively small locker, and give in your USPTO letter allowing you to take the exam.    The staff is very nice, the room is very quiet, I would say that as far as the testing center environment goes, my experience was very positive.  Also, much of what people said here about lack of repeats from previous exams was not true in my case.  You may find yourself using a completely different strategy on this exam from the "guess now and look it up later" approach that is most natural to practice lacking a searchable manual.  On this test it is difficult to keep yourself from looking up every answer choice right as you're answering it because you feel like the info could be a click away.  In many cases, you will be right.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: BenL on 08-18-04 at 07:14 pm
Has anyone who took the patent exam during the first week received their results?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Darius on 08-20-04 at 05:24 pm
Hello all,

I took the patent bar yesterday. Here are my comments and observations on the exam. Hope it's useful for you upcoming testakers.

My background for the exam: I studied the whole summer (2nd week of June to 3rd week of August), almost every single day 2-3 hours using patbar materials; some of which was casual reading in front of the TV. I did tons of past test questions provided with the review course along with doing past exams since Oct. 2000 while making sure I understood those I got wrong. I did review reading up until test day.

Firstly, during the 2nd 3-hour portion, I had a major problem with the MPEP. After the first or 2nd question, when I pulled up the MPEP, the mouse cursor disappeared over it. The cursor was fine on the main part of the exam, but I was essentially "blindly" clicking on the MPEP hoping to hit the right box. I did what I could by pressing buttons on the keyboard to get the cursor back, but nothing worked. Barely useable, it was very frustrating trying to look things up and
needless to say, wasted a lot of my time. The cursor lost all accuracy and its movement did not correspond with the movements of my mouse. As my observations note, I have some cause for worry on my performance on the 2nd half. The staff was notified of the problem, but I was told to do the best I can. Prometric said it would report it to the USPTO.

1. For each section, I would say every 5th question was one from a previous exam, so about 10 or so were questions I had seen before.

2. The questions did have more PCT questions than previous exams.

- Some of the "new" questions had a hint of familiarity. However, a lot of them were focused on material not covered by previous exam questions. For example, I thought I knew all the pertinent parts of reissue, obviousness, and PCT down cold, but these questions managed to put a new twist on the questions (e.g.there were no questions about a broadening reissue).

3. The questions were very detailed oriented, meaning it was essential to reference the MPEP because I doubt anyone without a tremendous amount of experience would know questions down to the details required
for at least 1/3 of the "new" questions.

- The good thing was I had the right amount of practice from the provided software and focused on look up strategies. I was comfortable with the online MPEP.

4. Because this was a MPEP heavy dependent test, I had to look up at least 25 questions per section, which took up the whole 3 hours. The time I had "saved" on previous questions (which took me 30 seconds to
answer) was eaten up by reading long passages in the MPEP to sift through the details required for some of these questions. But, I made sure to finish all questions.

Hopefully I passed so this MPEP glitch isn't an issue. I can miss up to 15 per section. Hopefully I missed much less on section 1 to compensate for an anticipated mediocre performance on section 2. Now I just have to wait 6 weeks.
Title: Patent Bar exam materials
Post by: KBB on 09-01-04 at 08:14 am
I am studying for the Patent Bar Exam to hopefully take  at the end of this year. Does anyone have home study course materials or any other study materials that I could buy for a fairly inexpensive price? The price of the courses that I found online are too expensive for me at this time. Please email me if you have any study materials that you found helpful. Thanks so much! kbeagles@fhcrc.org
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: John Radi on 09-03-04 at 07:09 am
I have a May set of patbar material that someone gave me.  Does anyone know if the "new" material which now costs $800 is worth the money?  I'd hate studying with outdated material that might cost me points, on the other hand - $800 is a lot of money.

Does anyone have an idea of when they'll switch to the new mpep?  That'll really kill me if it's in the middle of my studying.

Can someone talk a little more about what the online mpep is like?  I have an mpep in adobe format, is that similar or is their version harder to work with?  (slower, less responsive to searching, no hyperlinks...)

thanks!

-john
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: tony on 09-03-04 at 11:32 am
Has anyone that took the computer-based test received the test result?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Scott Evans on 09-03-04 at 10:52 pm
I haven't received mine yet, and I took the test on the morning of July 26th.  Good luck on your results, Tony.  I think all of us could use some.

Regarding the previous post, the online MPEP wasn't slow, but you couldn't search because of the lock-up issues.  I got too used to flipping to sections by feel in the hard copy, which made the online version a little clumsy.  Once they clean up the search issues, it will probably be even more efficient than the book because you'll be able to use a keyword search to quickly locate some of the more obscure subsections.  It will probably be enough to make up for not being able to bring any notes into the test.  (By the way, despite the sadistic appearance of that act, I'm pretty sure the USPTO had no other choice because of the other tests that are administered in the same facilities that don't allow any crib sheets.  I'm probably pointing out the obvious, and it won't be much comfort for those are planning to take the test, but the realization was a sliver of comfort for me.)  My suggestion would be to practice with the computer version and wait to take the test until they give some confirmation about fixing the lockups.  Good luck.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Jimi on 09-06-04 at 04:57 pm
I just took the test on September 3rd, and had absolutely no problems with the computer I was using.  It was very quick, and had no lockups.  I also thought there were a lot of repeats, and not too many tough questions.

Don't let all of the above posts scare you too much.  Most of you should be OK on this exam because it appears that the problems may have been worked out.  The difficulty of the test is a little harder than that of the previous tests, but not too much harder.  I would say that your score would probably be around 5 points lower on this new computerized test compared to the old tests.

Jimi
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: gregboyd on 09-07-04 at 04:15 pm
How about the longer "case squib" questions on the new test?  I had heard they were going for less of these.  I mean the ones that take about 10 minutes just to read through.

Are there still as many (or any) of those?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Tod Waldrop on 09-12-04 at 04:59 pm
I took the test on Friday, 9/10/04.

First, on the technology aspects.  The test center I went to in Charlotte, NC was equipped with what appeared to be relatively new Compaq computers (Pentium III's or newer) with 17" monitors.  I had no problems with the search function hanging up in the MPEP.  Overall I couldn't complain heavily about anything in the technology.  

There are a couple of things that would make it easier, like being able to keystroke toggle between the  test and the MPEP. The MPEP doesn't lose your place when you go back to the test every time, but it does reset sometimes. I never figured out why it did reset.  Maybe, on changing questions, I just didn't take the time to think about until after I was through, and I couldn't test it at that point.  Also, being able to split the screen with the test on top or bottom and the MPEP vice versa.  You can resize the MPEP window over top of the test window, but this resizing isn't remembered when you close and reopen the MPEP.  And you have to close the MPEP to answer the question.  Again, the overall rating would be positive for the technology.

Now the content of the exam.  I would say that at least half of my exam dealt with the following three topics: appeal, reexamination, and the PCT.  Also, there were several questions about references being available as prior art.   I didn't have any questions that were extemely long, only two or three that even required scrolling the screen to see all 5 answers.

The first 50 questions seemed straight forward, but the second 50 gave me trouble.  I assume I will be taking it again in the near future, but maybe I passed it.  To give a perspective of my level of knowledge and experience, this was my third try (two paper and one Prometric). My educational background is technical, no legal education other than on the job over the past eighteen months or so.  In summary, I didn't find this test to be extremely different than the two paper tests.  In fact, I preferred it being computerized rather than on paper.  Good luck to everyone!

Tod
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: S James on 09-13-04 at 02:49 pm
Has anybody that took the exam the first week received their results yet?  Its been six plus weeks and I didn't know if I should check with the Office regarding my results.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: BenL on 09-13-04 at 05:34 pm
I took it Aug 2nd and still haven't heard anything.  I talked to PLI the end of last week and they said that no one has gotten results yet.  

If anyone has gotten results, please let us know!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Iris on 09-15-04 at 12:42 pm
Just spoke with Harry Moatz, the director of OED, about the test result.  He said just hang tight.  They don't have enough people to process the results, but they are sending them out as soon as they can.  No dates have been given as to how much longer it will take.
Iris
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 09-15-04 at 03:49 pm
I am reading Iris's comments to mean either one of two things.  1) that the PTO does not have sufficient staff to process the exams.  2) that not enough people have taken the exam to do statistical analysis (and thus discard bad questions).  which is it?  based on the way the exam is administered, it seems like the second scenario is most likely.  which raises some questions.  i took the exam on august 9th.  i called OED about a week later to ask an unrelated question, and they told me that only about 50 people had taken it thus far (when the exam had been available for about 3 weeks).  only 50 people!  that's nationwide.  therefore, by now, its probably somewhere in the range of 80-120 or so.  when the written tests were given, about 1000 people took it at a time.  so, what i'm wondering is, what is the threshold here?  how many scores do they need to process the results? Harry Moatz wants us to sight tight, but for how long?  are we talking a couple more weeks, or more like 6 months?  it all seems very unreasonable.  i think i'm going to try to call Mr. Moatz tomorrow.
Ryan
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: S James on 09-15-04 at 05:04 pm
Please let us know what you find out.  I may be naive, but how can it take so long to process a computer-administered test.  I know the GRE and other similar tests give you results instantly.  What is so different with the patent exam software??  I'm not sure if the USPTO understands (or cares) that some people's job prospects are based on the results of this exam.  Sorry, just venting a little frustration.  This whole process seems to just keep dragging, starting with the test being administered in late July instead of April.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 09-15-04 at 06:30 pm
The exam has been completely computer graded since about
1997 or so when the got rid of the claim drafting exercise.
I suspect that the delay is more likely associated with
resolving problems with bad questions in the exam.  With only a few people
taking the test rather than over a thousand, perhaps the indicators
of bad questions are not so clear.

After the test has been given enough times so that all of the
questions have been exercised, perhaps the results can be reported
instantly.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Otto on 09-15-04 at 09:39 pm
I concur with Mr. Clark.  

I took the exam last Thursday.  While there were only a couple of questions that struck me as really "bad" in terms of how they were worded, those two were pretty awful.

I think we'll probably not be seeing the "instant results" the USPTO predicted would soon be available to exam takers   Looking at the 10/2003 exam,  it seems that two questions were negated because the PTO had to accept any answer as correct, two questions accepted more than one answer as the most correct, and one was deleted due to superseding changes in the law.  I doubt that the current pool of exam questions will be completely free of similar issues.

BTW, for those curious-  Mr. Waldrops's description (supra) of the exam subject matter pretty much characterizes what I saw on the exam I took on the 9th.  My advice for those who are about to take the exam is to PRACTICE LOOKING THINGS UP IN A PDF COPY OF THE MPEP WHICH IS BROKEN DOWN SUCH THAT EACH CHAPTER IS A SEPARATE DOCUMENT.  I took the PRG course in June, and probably spent about 200-300 hours studying this summer before the exam.  If I do pass the exam (and I honestly have no idea whether I think I did or not), it will be due to the 10 hours or so I spent playing with a PDF of the MPEP broken down as described above.  This test went into minutiae that were not covered in the Kayton course,  and seemed very focused on one's skill in perusing the MPEP.





Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Dave B on 09-16-04 at 07:36 am
Has anyone taken the exam at either of the 2 Prometric locations in Manhattan ?

Where and when did you take the exam ?

Was the monitor/display OK to read ?

Did the MPEP search function work properly (without freezing up ) ?

Any other comments on the experience ?

Thanks for your help !

Dave

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 09-16-04 at 11:27 am
hello all.  i called the PTO today and found myself getting bounced around a bit.  but, i eventually spoke to a guy named Bill Griffin.  he is apparently an attorney who deals with prometric on this.  basically, he told me that they still have not done whatever they need to do in order to make sure the results are indicatative the skills/knowledge of the test takers.  it sounds like they are have the raw scores, but have not yet 'normalized' the scores.  it was all very shady and vague.  made me feel like i was living in a communist country or something.  anyway i digress.  so, bottom line, he said they expect to have the results "shortly."  i pressed him on that, and basically he told me that if i'm calling him again in a month that i "have a right to be pissed off".   one thing that sort of pissed me off though was i asked about how much administrative stuff would have to happen between their getting the results and mailing out notices.  he said that should just take a week.  but, he also said that they were working on finalizing the letters that go out to the test takers.  you'd think that they would have done that months ago!!  arg.  stupid patent office.  anyway, so bottom line, hopefully the first of us will start getting our results by the end of the month or so.  hopefully passing scores, because i don't want to deal with this crap again.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: BenL on 09-16-04 at 06:20 pm
In response to Dave...

I would recommend taking the patent bar at the east 42nd street location.  I took it there 6+ weeks ago.  I definitely had problems with the MPEP, but I don't think it had anything to do with the testing center.  

They have modern computers, a fairly helpful staff, and it's quiet.  I was told by Prometric that the east 42nd street location is their main nyc location, so it is probably the largest one around.  

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: esar on 09-19-04 at 07:16 pm
Where can I obtain a MPEP pdf searchable by chapter?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Otto on 09-19-04 at 11:29 pm
You can download the chapters of the latest version individually at
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/index.html

the USPTO exam is currently based on the previous version of the MPEP (Edition 8, Rev. 1).  that is available at
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/indexold.htm

The PDF versions ar ete way to go- that's pretty much what you'll be using (albeit with a slightly different interface than Adobe Acrobat Reader) for the exam.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Dave B. on 09-20-04 at 12:43 pm
I think you can get a better simulation of the MPEP search function if you stick with Acrobat version 5.1 or less, which have a "Find" function. In Acrobat version 6, the "Find" was replaced with a more powerful "Search" function, which finds all instances of the target phrase in one step. I believe the MPEP search function provided in the exam is closer to "Find", so if you have upgraded to Acrobat 6 or higher, you may want to downgrade to 5.1 or less when taking simulated exams. You can download old versions of Acrobat from Adobe's website:

http://www.adobe.com

And yes you can get separate MPEP PDF chapters from the PTO website.

If anyone knows how to better simulate the MPEP search function actually available during the exam, please post.

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Retaker on 09-22-04 at 02:15 pm
anyone from the first round of takers find out their score yet? How many weeks has it been??????
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: S James on 09-28-04 at 04:20 pm
Has anybody gotten an update from the PTO concerning the results of the exam?  I tried today and spoke to a woman who told me they have not mailed out any results yet and did not know when they would start to mail them.  She then transferred me to the Director, but I got his voicemail.  Has anybody had better luck getting more info from these people??  Aren't we in the middle of week nine for the people who took the test in July?  So much for the six week quote they gave us...
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: BenL on 09-28-04 at 06:01 pm
I have talked to a few people at the USPTO and have been told that "results will definitely be available before the end of the year."  But, they are hoping to start sending them out before thanksgiving.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Iris Mok on 09-28-04 at 10:21 pm
I talked the same women and she couldn't tell me anything about how much longer it will take.  It's frustrating that it took so long to get the exam result. This beats the reason why they offer the computer exam in the first place.  If we can't get our result till 6 months later.  What's the point of having computer exams and the rule that you can take it every 60 days?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: David Givens on 09-29-04 at 07:47 am
I just spoke with William Moatz, the Director of OED this morning (9/29/04).

He said that they are validating the results, that they will send out the results as soon as that is done, that results will be in writing, and that they do not yet have a date.  Then he said, "That is all I am going to say."  

I raised the possibility of sending out results first for those whose raw scores are 70 or above (and so whose pass/fail result would not be changed by credit given for poorly vetted questions, etc.)  

Mr. Moatz then repeated  "That is all I am going to say,"  and our conversation was over.

This is maddening frustrating, though not too surprising given the delays in starting testing at all.   The bureacratic incentives are clearly not the same as for those of us needing these results to get a job.

It would at least have been more forthcoming, respectful and helpful for those of us trying to make plans if the PTO had put up a notice on the website to let people know of the delay.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: M N. Patel on 09-29-04 at 09:29 am
1.  Does anyone have reading material for the new exam which they can either give or sale?

2.  Any good locations to take the exam in Central New Jersey?

3.  Which chapters aprat from 2100, 700, 600, PCT, appeal and reexamination to be prepared for more?

Thanks a lot.

Mukul
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Marc on 09-29-04 at 10:30 am
Hello all:

I'm trying to determine the most effective strategies for studying for the patent bar. I do not have a legal background.

I have been reviewing the answers to the last 5 patent bar exams. However, from what several individuals have reported,  most of the questions on the current exams are NOT repeats of old questions.

So is it correct to assume that the only way one has a decent chance of passing is to be so completely familiar with the MPEP that one could look up an answer to any question within a few minutes?  

If this assumption is correct, is it feasible to pass the exam by studying the MPEP about 2 hours per day for about 3 months, in addition to memorizing the last 500 exam answers?  

During the exam, if its not practical to use the search function to find the answers in the MPEP, will using the Index suffice?

Your comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Marc
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Jonathan on 09-29-04 at 01:31 pm
Yes, each new exam is mostly that - new. Of course, there usually are a good number of questions that are similar. That being said, those questions typically deal with areas of the MPEP that one should just know cold. These include (readers: please chime in with areas I may miss here) calculating due dates of various responses, multiple dependent claim questions, fee due dates - maintenance and issue and others, PCT related questions, determining priority dates, extension fees - when they kick in etc, continuation application practice, determining what 102 section to apply given a filing date and a reference date, requirements for securing a filing date.
Don't bother memorizing old exams, instead concentrate on understanding the underlying concept.

By being able to confidently and quickly answer the easier shorter questions, you can free up alot of time to concentate on those multi-paragraph, fact dependent questions.

I have not taken the new online test (don't need to cause I passed several years ago), but from what I have read I would offer the following advice. Since test takers can no longer bring their own aids to the test, it sounds like it is even more essential to know the various chapter headings. In that regard, the intro page to each chapter of the MPEP could be quite valuable to quickly finding specific information in a chapter. Personally, I find the MPEP index mediocre at best and often need to look things up under various names before I locate the info I know is in there but just can't recall the exact section.

You indicate that you do not have a legal background, so I would not recommend merely studying the MPEP and taking old tests. You may find it worthwhile to purchase some sort of home study program to assist you. I used the program by patbar.com a few years ago and found it useful - http://www.patbar.com/ . I am sure there are other vendors out there but I am not familiar with them. Try googling 'patent bar review' to get a list.

Good luck in your efforts and don't get discouraged if you don't pass the first time! It is a hard test and you will much more prepared the second time around if it comes to that..
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Amith Shah on 09-29-04 at 06:55 pm
Quote
Where can I obtain a MPEP pdf searchable by chapter?


This page has a link to a full-text searchable MPEP edition 8 revision 1 (http://www.upstartraising.com/patentbar/patent_bar.html). The site also provides Patent Bar Exam Software (http://www.upstartraising.com/patentbar/patent_bar.html) for practicing with the previous 9 exams.


Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Bibi on 10-03-04 at 02:41 pm
I started studying kayton's home study course and then had to stop for the last 2 months due to personal issues. Now I am starting again with a tentative december exam in mind. For those who are preparing now:

1. My layton's material is from october 2002. Do you think I need to buy new material for the newer exam? Given that only few people have taken the new test, how much updated would the new material be anyway?

2. Other than Kayton's material (or ny other homestudy course)  and the prior exam papers , what else are you studying?

3. Kayton's material has 2000 Qs which cover all from past exams. Also, how are you practicing looking up MPEP? Do you downloas all the pdfs and then for each Q, try to search the answer from MPEP.

Thanks for your help
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 10-03-04 at 06:44 pm
About studying from old material...

There probably are some small changes in law since 2002 as
well as some changes in rules.  In particular there are recent
changes to how amendments are done and I seem to remember at
least a few old questions about that topic.

The newer tests seem to have more emphasis on PCT subject matter.
I did not study that topic at all in preparation for the test I
took in April 2003.

Obviously the recommendations in the course about preparing
material to bring into the exam have to be ignored...
Title: I just received my USPTO Exam result
Post by: Zack Zhao on 10-04-04 at 02:10 pm
I took the USPTO Exam on September 2 and just received my result today.  The official notice letter is dated October 1, 2004.  

I wish you early exam takers all have good luck and have received your results, too!

Best regards,
Title: Re: I just received my USPTO Exam result
Post by: Joe_Blow_Man on 10-04-04 at 02:12 pm
Quote
I took the USPTO Exam on September 2 and just received my result today.  The official notice letter is dated October 1, 2004.  


So did you pass? In light of passing or not passing do you have any advice?

Joe
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Janthkin on 10-04-04 at 02:44 pm
I just took the exam today.  Oh, such fun....

Anyway, a few things I noted:
1) I had at least 6 Patent Treaty questions in the second half of the exam, most involving filing dates or filing requirements.

2) I had 2 questions which repeated themselves in part 2 (i.e. the exact same question appeared twice).

3) Computers were mostly okay - repeated use of "find next" could break the PDF viewer, though (fix was easy - hit esc to close the viewer, then Next/Previous to reset it).

4) Moving between questions resets the PDF viewer.

5) No keyboard shortcuts - no ctrl-f for "find", no F3 for "find next", and no Enter after typing in your search phrase.

I found it quite a bit harder than all of the prior exams I practiced on - I actually used up all of the time here, where I'd been getting through in 1:45 per section or so on the last few practice exams.  Some of that is the less-friendly PDF viewer they were using; I was getting pretty handy with Acrobat, and I really miss alt-tab; having to open & close the MPEP every time was slow.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Andrew on 10-04-04 at 03:25 pm
I also received my results today and I passed!!!!!!!!!!  I took the exam on August 24th, before starting law school.  In response to Joe's question, I studied for it from May 10th up until I took it.  I studied for it about 5 hours per day, sometimes more, and took 4 practice exams right before the real exam.  There were a lot of questions about the PCT, which I had not prepared for adequately, so I think this warrants a lot of attention.  Additionally, after taking it, I wished that I had done more to review or memorize old exam questions.  I saw about 10 repeats, and on 3 or 4 of them I remembered what I had chosen when I took the practice tests, but I could not remember if that was the right answer.    I used an old patbar review course that I bought off of someone, and I found it to be very BORING but it was a good course.  I think that they severely underestimate the amount of time that each "module" (the course is divided into 63 modules) takes, but it was nonetheless a good course.  I would recommend at least 3-4 months to study, and I would work A LOT on timing.  Taking the exam on paper, and with the paper MPEP, I was able to finish each of the three hour portions of the exam in about 2 hours, 10 minutes, but when I took the actual exam, I had to hastily answer a few questions in order to finish in the allotted three hours.  I cannot stress enough how much more difficult it is to search the electronic MPEP as opposed to the paper version.  For one thing, you have to zoom in each time you open the electronic MPEP, and it is not easy to flip to the page you want.  Anyways, I hope this helps, and if you have any other questions, I would be happy to address them.  
-Andrew  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: S James on 10-04-04 at 03:45 pm
I received the good news today that I passed the exam!  I took it Aug 17th.  For those looking for shortcuts, I don't really know of any.  I used patbar.com and found it to be more than adequate, but I think any other study guide probably would have produced the same results.  It just requires a lot of work, plain and simple.  I spent roughly three to four hundred hours studying (the amount suggested by patbar) and found the exam fairly straightforward.  I am not attempting to brag, I just think that the best way to prepare is to just sit down and put the time in studying.  If you do, you'll find that you don't have to rely on the searchable MPEP too much and, therefore, should have plenty of time.  That's just my two cents for what it's worth...
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 10-04-04 at 03:52 pm
Congratulations to you both!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: David Givens on 10-04-04 at 04:03 pm
I took the exam on July 28 and got my results today--I passed!  The notice was dated 9/30.  No score was given.

My best to everyone.

David
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Iris Mok on 10-04-04 at 05:00 pm
I took it on Aug 2, and I passed too! Congrats to all who passed.  It was a tough 10 weeks while we waited for the result!
I recommend the PLI course for those who are planning on taking one.  Iris ;D
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Andrew on 10-04-04 at 05:28 pm
As I indicated already, I just passed the computerized patent examination, and I am now selling my Patbar materials on ebay if you are interested.  The Item number is 5525326925.  These materials sell for $795, and I have started bidding at $50!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Scott Evans on 10-04-04 at 07:48 pm
Congratulations everyone who passed!  I received my results today and I'm happy to say that I passed as well.
Scott
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: William Murr on 10-05-04 at 09:20 pm
I also passed.   It seems kind of strange that all the early test takers passed when I thought it was a very difficult exam. (perhaps the people who did not pass aren't posting)  Most likely, there were a lot of poorly written questions that everyone received credit for.  Anyways, congrats to everyone!

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: tony starks on 10-07-04 at 02:48 am
Question:

Does any one know if there is a guide to outdated questions on old exams so someone can avoid those that are based on outdated law?

Thanks.  

Also, does anyone have Barbri Patent Bar materials that they would be willing to sell?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: hermit on 10-07-04 at 02:04 pm
Took the computer based exam today in Madison, WI, and the problem with freezing when using "find again" was still occuring.  I found choosing the option of keeping the find box on the screen (check box in lower left corner) worked exactly as find again would, i.e., just keep hitting find and it works its way through whatever chapter of the MPEP or appendix you happen to have open.  

Based on my strategy while taking old exams, I relied heavily on the subject index in the MPEP.  Essentially, once you get to know this index for its relative strengths and weaknesses, it can become an invaluable aid in selecting the appropriate subsection of the MPEP to search in, better than scanning the table of contents in each chapter.  If the index failed, I resorted to the "find" feature, although I would strongly caution future test takers to avoid relying heavily on the find feature.  Its very important to be sure the section you're reading about is really the best for the question asked, and you can make sure of this by choosing the best context in the MPEP vis a vis what chapter you're looking at for your answer.

As usual, in several cases the answer could be located verbatim in the MPEP (always a nice feeling when you locate those, no?)

Additionally, several, i.e. at least 20-30 of the 100 questions were verbatim from past exams, and several were from the Oct 2003 exam.  I strongly recommend test takers drill on this exam AT LEAST the day before the exam.  In many cases, the answer options were verbatim as well.  

Several questions were new, and a surprising number were ambiguously written.  Disproportionately weighted subject matter was: actions during appeal (i.e. reply briefs, transfer from appeal back to prosecution, action by you and action by examiner after appeal); restriction requirements; broadening reissue (see below); PCT (several questions covered proper claims for benefit of priority of PCT application in fact patterns with complex foreign, international, and US priority situations, and the effect of such complicated applications as prior art under 102(e); questions (as usual) about filing date, especially when applications were filed with missing parts; and a surprising number of questions about appropriate actions to be taken in the event of deceased or incapacitated inventors.  I'd suggest drilling on this last topic, covered in MPEP 400, but its so easy to find during the exam you shouldn't bother memorizing it.  Instead, memorize the Oct 2003 exam.  You will be glad you did.  

Finally, beware a seemingly repeated long question in the afternoon session dealing with broadening reissue.  A similar version of this question appeared in the Oct 2003 exam, and the two fact scenarios, both of which deal with timeliness of filing declaration for broadening reissue, are NOT the same.  As always, READ the questions and answers carefully.  

I used Kayton's PRG exclusively, and found it very useful, but I would recommend other Kayton users to stress use of the computer simulated exams with looking stuff up via the MPEP index, and destress reading the written materials.  The 6 volume Kayton treatise appears to be an excellent work for patent practitioners, with a lot of extraneous information dealing with case history and litigation that is simply not necessary for any non-current practitioners preparing for the exam.

Most of all, good luck!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: drjimhood on 10-21-04 at 06:16 pm
     Just finished taking the exam at the Montlake Terrace Prometric site. Had "freezing" problems with the MPEP. The suggestion of keeping the find window open by checking the box worked great. Also ran into a crash (didn't kill the computer, fortunately) when repeat searching "down", but when I changed to searching "up", freeze stopped. The location where I took the exam was pretty stiff about only one "piece" of scratch paper at a time, had to stay in the lobby during breaks, in general pretty restrictive.
    In terms of the exam itself, I'd estimate less than 20% were repeat questions, none involved biochem, about 20% were from PCT issues, 10 about revival issues, about 10 were reissue, and one really strange one about user passes at the Technical Centers. The rest seemed to be evenly divided between appeals, traversing, and writing claims. No claim counting.
    Good luck to those about to enter the gladiator's ring  ;).
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: alecplumb on 10-25-04 at 02:26 pm
I took the exam on October 22, in Culver City (Los Angeles.) I had no problem with the MPEP find feature.

I saw only a couple of PCT problems, and no biotech problems, but I did see the User Pass question. That could only have been there to see if you can look up something in the MPEP that you had never heard of before. There were 10-15 questions that were repeats from the 3 posted past exams.

Overall the experience felt very similar to the way I had practiced the tests: 3 hour time limit, 50 printed questions, and the PDF MPEP for lookups. (I used Adobe Acrobat 5, because the Find feature is more like the one used in the exam than Acrobat 6).
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Bibi on 10-27-04 at 11:38 am
Alecplumb:
What's a user pass question? Also, how familiar were the questions in general?

Thanks
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: alecplumb on 10-27-04 at 12:13 pm
Quote
Alecplumb:
What's a user pass question? Also, how familiar were the questions in general?

Thanks


The "User Pass" question relates to "REGULATIONS FOR THE PUBLIC USE OF RECORDS IN THE PATENT SEARCH ROOM OF THE U.S. PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE", MPEP Section 510. A previous poster on this thread mentioned it, and I remember seeing the same (or similar) question. (This was pretty easy to find by looking up "User Pass" in the MPEP index.)

The questions were very familiar. As I mentioned, there were quite a few repeats from the published past exams, and overall the rest of the questions were similar in scope to the past exams. Keep in mind, though, that this was just my experience, and several posters on this topic have seen quite a bit more PCT and Biotech than I did. (I did not see any biotech questions, and only a couple of PCT questions.) I don't know if this is because those new PCT and Biotech questions were thrown out of the test, or if it was just the luck of the draw.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Iris Mok on 10-31-04 at 12:03 pm
For those who passed, has anyone receive their certificate yet? I am wondering how long it would take to get it.
Iris
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: jcstubborn on 10-31-04 at 09:16 pm
For those that have taken the exam, I'd be interested in hearing your advice on how to effectively use the search feature with the pdf MPEP.  I have a nifty software version that came with my patbar study package as well as the PDF copies on the pto website.  

My strategy so far has been to use the main index to drill down to the chapter by identifying a theme from the question.  Next, I try to do a keyword search in the chapter itself to drill down to my answer.  Sometimes that works, other times I get lost.  

Assuming the exam software didn't hang up on you all the time at the test site, what's your advice for the most effecient technique?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: drjimhood on 11-01-04 at 11:22 pm
     Well, I wrote a test trainer in Flash, with timing and scoring options, that incorporated the questions from the last eight exams. It would randomly pick 100 questions and "serve" them up as an exam. Because I didn't have the funds to buy the Macromedia flashpaper to incorporate the MPEP as an embedded pdf, I used reader 5.0 as an external application to browse the MPEP. I started serious use of the trainer about two months before the exam date and by the time that I took the exam, I was at 58% accuracy at 75 sec per question (I teach chemistry as an adjunct community college instructor, didn't really have a month to just focus on the Bar training and dealt with teaching flu during the month before the exam), without looking up questions. I would spend 3 hours per day in using the trainer without looking up answers, one to two hours per day using the trainer while looking up questions with reader, and during the last three weeks, I spent two hours per day reading PLI's patent bar training text and another patent bar exam prep (the publisher escapes my memory at the moment, is one volume and has an award ribbon on the front cover).
    As it turned out, I think that I should have spent more time using the trainer with reader, and memorizing the PLI stuff. I've taken major exams before and this one was strange because of the ability to look up answers. I did spend some time trying to memorize the key points from the biochem section, but there were no such questions on my exam and I think that perhaps (as was indicated by a previous poster) the biochem questions previously mentioned were not so much direct questions about the section's content as fact pattern scenarios that required more general application of something from the MPEP.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Not telling on 11-04-04 at 05:06 pm
I took the exam today and everything went smoothly.  I also saw the "user pass" question mentioned in earlier messages.  If you want to find the answer read through the portion of 510 that discusses the rules for using the Technology Center area.   The question relates to things like "do you leave material out for someone else to put back?" "Who do you sign in with? (i.e. the director or a secretary or somthing like that.)  

I did see quite a few questions about PCT, most of which, but not all, were directly related to the filing of PCTs or their effect as prior art under 102(e).  I also saw quite a few quetions about appeals.  I spent the last 15 minutes of the exam trying to find the answer to when and if you can file a reissue if you have gotten a reexamination certificate that has resulted in the cancelation of all the claims.?? The answers included things like "you can't file the reissue because there are no patent claims, you have to file within a year of the reexamination certificate, you have to file before the patent expires, or you have to file before the reexamination certificate expires.  If someone knows the answer to this let me know.

Also, someone mentioned earlier that they saw a lot of repeats but couldn't remember the answers.  I was very dilligent about reading the answers to the test questions even if I got them right.  It paid off well. I had 21 questions where I think the fact patern and the answers were repeats and another 3-10 where the fact patern/concept/answers were very familiar.  I would recommend verifying the answers to practice quetions so that you know which ones you get right.

We should probably start a conversation that discusses questions in the PTO's question pool.  I don't remember signing anyting that says we can't discuss exam questions.  Someone let me know if I'm wrong so we can delete this message.
One PCT question I got related to when a nationalization would not be accorded a filing date. The fact pattern had various items that were faxed.  I think the answer was that the nationalization fee cannot be faxed.
In another question, one of the answers related to whether a competent minor could sign patent documents (I think the answer is yes).
Another question I had related to treatment of claims in an appeal where the board of appeals has finally rejected some claims and provides a new ground of appeal for other claims.  Quite surprisingly I read in the MPEP that the examiner may allow all the claims and if so wouldn't send the case back to the board.  I marked that answer correct and went on because I didn't have time to look up all the answers. (consequently I may have missaplied the statement in the MPEP and not known that another answer was more correct).  
Another question I got was whether there is a different standard for patents vs. publication when it comes to showing enablement for anticipation purposes.  (i.e. a prior art reference has to be enabling).  I though that US patents were presumed enabling, but I read in the MPEP that for prior art purposes all art requires the same showing of enablement.

I hope this helps.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Not telling on 11-04-04 at 05:19 pm
One more thing.  On the second half of the exam, I started using the find feature to search the index.  For example, if I needed to look in "reissue", I would click on "r" and then search for "reissue",  while it was searching, I would maximize the screen.  I think I had an additional 10 minutes doing it this way because I didn't have to scroll down through the index.  Even if you are in "r" scolling down to "reissue can take 30 seconds.  I figured started doing it this way because my wrist started to hurt from using the acrobat "hand" to scroll the screen.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: jimi on 11-05-04 at 12:06 am
Not Telling wrote "We should probably start a conversation that discusses questions in the PTO's question pool. "

Please have some respect for both the PTO and the website that is hosting this discussion.  It'd be a shame for the great information on here to be jeapordized by people trying to create an online pool of test questions.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Not Telling on 11-05-04 at 08:46 am
Jimi's statement begs the question whether creating a discussion about the PTO's question pool is disrespectful of the PTO.  After all, the PTO draws over 25% of its questions from exams that it has posted on its web site.  Furthermore, the questions are VERBATIM and a detailed discussion of the answers are given by the PTO.  The PTO has a huge pool of questions.  There are over two thousand test questions available from prior exams and other PTO sources.  I think the PTO would be pleased if the patent bar community were familiar with all the material in its question pool, including the material it is using now.  Once again, please let me know if someone knows of WRITTEN PTO policy that discourages or prohibits disscusion of test questions.  Also, if everyone else disagrees, I am more than happy to shut up or take my discussion elsewhere.  (and yes I do see the counter argument that it is different to provide answers to the prior 2000 questions vs discussing the questions in the smaller current test pool.  My answer to that point is, the PTO never said its small pool would be stagnant.  Secondly, the PTO is very good at making rules.  If the PTO doesn't want us to discuss the questions, it will let us know.)
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Not telling on 11-05-04 at 09:29 am
I called the nice people in OED (703-306-4097) and they informed me that the PTO DOES NOT have a policy that prohibits examinees from discussing current test questions.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: not telling 2 on 11-06-04 at 01:37 pm
Quote
 I spent the last 15 minutes of the exam trying to find the answer to when and if you can file a reissue if you have gotten a reexamination certificate that has resulted in the cancelation of all the claims.?? The answers included things like "you can't file the reissue because there are no patent claims, you have to file within a year of the reexamination certificate, you have to file before the patent expires, or you have to file before the reexamination certificate expires.  If someone knows the answer to this let me know.
 


37 CFR 1.570 (d):
(d) If an ex parte reexamination certificate has been issued which cancels all of the claims of the patent, no further Office proceedings will be conducted with that patent or any reissue applications or any reexamination requests relating thereto.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 11-06-04 at 03:11 pm
When I was taking the exam I participated in a yahoo discussion group
that discussed the exam afterward to the point where we were
all sick of it.  People also recorded their exam responses
and tried to develop a consensus about which answer was correct.

I'm pretty sure that recording your A-E's is now both pointless
and not allowed, but I have not seen anything to suggest that
discussing exam questions is forbidden.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: drjimhood on 11-06-04 at 04:03 pm
     The posting quoting the CFR on user passes jogged something that I meant to post. During the first portion of the exam, I tended to search the index and the MPEP text by key word. During the second portion of the exam, it was more efficient to search the CFR appendix (or USC as appropriate for the question) by quoted rule/statute number to determine the best answer. Also noted that in some sections, keywords that were in the section would not appear during a "find" in that section. I distinctly remember not finding a phrase using the find feature and later running across the word while scanning through a section on a subsequent question. Went back and changed the answer on the previous question due to the "new"information, that was almost directly quoted in a answer choice. Find feature also seemed "finicky" about how the search phrase was entered into the find box  and subtle typing changes yielded "hits" where none appeared before. Probably a good idea to practice with the Reader 5.0 to gain better search term success.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: WJC on 11-16-04 at 01:55 pm
I took the exam yesterday at the Curtis Center in Philadelphia.  The exam was extremely difficult.  To make matters worse, the scrolling feature on the supposedly searchable MPEP scrolled continuously and uncontrollably during the entire exam such that I was unable to consult the MPEP.  The Prometric staff was useless and told me there was nothing that could be done.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Tom on 11-23-04 at 03:07 pm
Has anyone heard recently about how long it takes to find out computer test results?  Last I heard was a few months ago that it took about 10 weeks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Waiting on 11-23-04 at 10:19 pm
I called the USPTO a couple of weeks ago and they told me 6-8 weeks
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Waiting2 on 11-24-04 at 09:16 am
When I finished the exam the screen said I would get results in 6 weeks, but after 6 weeks I called and they said "8 weeks". Not sure there is an upper bound  :)

Names of a big bunch of people who passed were posted to the OED website at the beginning of October, but since then only a few names so I'm guessing that they are accumulating a "statistically significant sample" before handing out more results.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: samterm on 11-25-04 at 06:27 pm
Quote
When I finished the exam the screen said I would get results in 6 weeks, but after 6 weeks I called and they said "8 weeks". Not sure there is an upper bound  :)

Names of a big bunch of people who passed were posted to the OED website at the beginning of October, but since then only a few names so I'm guessing that they are accumulating a "statistically significant sample" before handing out more results.


Are you sure it said 6 weeks ? I took it on 11/23/04 and it said "Your results will sent directly to you from the USPTO in due time." When did you take the exam ? I wonder why we both got different messages in the end.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Bibi on 11-28-04 at 05:17 pm
Hi:
I was studying for the exam and in the mean time got laid off. This coming month, since there's not much hiring, I would try my best to put in as much as possible and appear for the exam early jan. I plan to study about 6 hrs everyday. Guys, I need your input to help me do my best.

I have kayton material from 2001, but I have a feeling this should be good enough. I do not have the exam taking program from kayton's course that lot of people talk about, but do have something called PTO exam simulator from some other company that randomly selects 50 Qs from old exams and tests. Problem is, I can't search MPEP at the same time. Right now, I am hoping that I can get 70 Qs right from my knowledge and don't have to depend too much on MPEP search. Once I am a little more prepapred, I can start learning MPEP look up. The reason being, I wonder how much time, I'll have left for looking up. Kayton's course has about 1600 Qs (including repeats). Any idea, how much one can be prepapred after finishing all the 1600 Qs? After I am done with all the Qs, I plan to revise the lecture notes that briefly gives all the contents by MPEP chapter. What else should I study? I don't think I'll have time to study the treatise, anyway.

Also, I was filling out the exam application form and got confused with the exam fee. How much do we pay with the application, and how much later to prometric? How long does it take to get approval for the examonce we apply. I am planning to apply ASAP so that by March I'll be done (incase for some reason my Jan plans don't work out).

Now for some input from the past test takers. I hear you telling 20-30 repeats. Does it mean, these are verbatim repeats from previous exams? Are the others completely foreign Qs to you? or are the story or fact patterns basically familiar to you?
So much for now. Back to my practice Qs.

Thanks for your inputs in advance.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 11-28-04 at 08:30 pm
Using old patent material has some risks.  Patent law does
change on a pretty regular basis.  In fact Congress just
made some changes to 35 USC 103 in the last week or so.

Post 2000 materials is mostly okay, but there are some pitfalls.
I would supplement the material by getting ahold of the
copies of the last patent bar exams.

Your study should be organized closely around the MPEP.  You should
be able to locate the answers to any questions you miss while doing
old exams in the MPEP.  If you do that, you will gain enough
familiarity with the book to look up question.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: E. Alpert on 11-29-04 at 06:36 am
I have Kayton material from 2004 some of which I would like to sell (including the questions CD-ROM which I think is very important for practicing). If you are in the NY area we can also arrange pick up. Feel free to contact me at e2alpert@aol.com
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Waiting2 on 11-29-04 at 08:25 am
Quote

Are you sure it said 6 weeks ? I took it on 11/23/04 and it said "Your results will sent directly to you from the USPTO in due time." When did you take the exam ? I wonder why we both got different messages in the end.


Its apparent that they have changed their SW at least once since the initial distribution, since people are now reporting different types of questions (see early posts to this list).

I took the exam at the beginning of October.

Actually, the PTO at one time promised steady improvement in feedback time to 2 weeks (or even less). However. they did not say how long it would take to reach that goal  :).

It is not necesarily a bad thing to wait longer, since the longer they delay, the better chance that they will throw out some bad questions. However, it does take a toll on your nerves.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Janthkin on 11-29-04 at 08:59 am
Quote
When I finished the exam the screen said I would get results in 6 weeks, but after 6 weeks I called and they said "8 weeks". Not sure there is an upper bound  :)


Similar experience here - I took the exam the first week of October, was told 4 weeks, then called and was told 6, then called and was told 8, then called today was told "it could be 9, or even longer".  

I'm extremely annoyed - it's 100 multiple choice questions, done on a computer!  Many of us could WRITE software that would grade these things.  If they're trying to collect statistically significant numbers of results to screen questions, then they should at least be up front about that.  As is, it's taking them longer to grade the COMPUTER tests than it did to grade the written tests the last several times they offered those.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Jonathan on 11-29-04 at 10:08 am
When the computer-based exam was first rolled out, wasn't it a goal to provide instant results and perhaps even a 'you have answered a sufficient number of questions to pass, do not bother completing the rest of the exam' feature?

I think both of those features have been available for medical board exams for quite awhile. Seems a little silly that the OED and Prometric can't do the same.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: James Italia on 11-29-04 at 01:16 pm
Took the exam Nov. 27th.  I experienced no problems with the software and the location was great (Prometric Glendale).  Here are my observations...

First some background.  I used the Kayton (PRG) Video materials from 2002.  I did not use the treatise and instead would watch the videos and go through the two volumes of materials that accompanied the videos.  I would make my own notecards for each chapter and then complete the chapter associated questions and make notecards on key pioints or missed questions.   Once I was through ALL the materials I had about 300 notecards (4x6) that were pretty much full using rather small handwriting.  

I knew there had been some changes since the 2002 materials were published so I checked the PTO website and updated those areas (ex. PCT practice, 102(e) etc.).

Once I had gone through everything once, I relied soley on my notecards.  After going through them a couple times I took the 9 computer based exams (Nov. 1999 to Oct. 2003)(see link in this thread for site).  After each exam I would again make notecards for each individual exam noting the same items as I mentioned above. My average score for all the exams was 86% (with no score under 80% and no score above 90%).  I think talking all these exams and making sure you understand the answers is key and so is the experience you gain by using the MPEP in electronic form to look up questions. When taking the practice tests, in particular with the more recent exams, I could get through the 50 questions in about and hour, marking about a 15 questions to check later in the MPEP.  I finished the practice exams about 5 days before the actual exam, I spent the next days reviewing all my cards and going through all the exams once more.

Now to the Exam...
Using this same technique with the actual exam, again I got through the 50 questions in about an hour and was left with about 20 questions to look up in the first part and about 15 to look up in the second part.  I marked more in the actual exam because I was being more careful than I was in the practice exams.  

I would say that of the 100 total questions about 25 were verbatim from old exams.  Another 50 were pretty straight foward if you knew the basics really well.  About 12 required you to look up in the MPEP to get the minutiae details. The remaining 13 questions were what I would describe as a little obscure, and would take some time and effort to find the answers.  And of those 13, I would say that I didn't find the definitive answer in the MPEP for about half of them.   So that left me with about 6 questions that I had to make an educated guess on and thankfully it was usually a 50/50 proposition.

I would say that I studied A LOT and that it paid off.   My overall impression is that the exam was fair and completely passable, but it did have a different feel to it when compared to the previous exams.  Definitely not as comfortable and I would say more difficult to degree than the others.  It left me with the impression that somebody "new" got their hands on this exam during its preparation. Some of the questions that dealt with simple material were skewed a little.  And with the PCT/102(e) questions, most of them for some reason were Pre-AIPA so that made them more difficult.

Well there you have it.  Let this be a thank you to the board for all the insight it provided me in my preparation.  I will post my results once I recieve them, i.e. whenever "due time" is.
 

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Gordon Morrison on 11-29-04 at 01:42 pm
I called OED and was told that "there were no results, until they have results, when they have results, the results will then be mailed".  I took the exam on Oct 4th looking forward to getting my results.  Clearly this is an improvement over the paper system.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 11-29-04 at 03:21 pm
I hope you're kidding.  This is definitely not an improvement over the paper exam!  The exam is harder, the online MPEP is faulty and it is taking longer to get the results.  Although I do agree with Waiting 2 that the longer they take to compile the results, the more likely they are to throw out bad questions (and there were plenty).
Title: Prometric : part 1
Post by: ChiTownBob on 12-01-04 at 07:30 pm
I took it Nov. 15.  Since I was so keyed up afterwards, and I wanted to send my recollection to the Kayten folks, I wrote down EVERYTHING I could recall.   So this is a long post, most of which is of the form "<area>:  as many questions as I could remember."  (in fact, my original message was rejected for being too long)

With respect to content, I think there were a great many obscure and “tricky” questions, whose motivation seems nothing more than “OK, we’ll assume you know all about X, and Y, and Z, and what happens if you have X but your Y is defective.  But what if Z is also missing and you also have the W element in there, and the W was submitted twice but the second time was done using improper mailing procedures?”   In other words, they’re designed not to test your knowledge of the law but to see if you can be tripped up.   It is fair to expect a few of those, but I would guess there were at least 15 that would fall into that category.  By contrast, many critical parts of the law were completely missing, such as ethics, while “death of the inventor” had three or four questions!

Reissue:  three or four questions, at least

     When an oath stating non-broadening is filed before two-year date, and then inventors decide to broaden it, right on the two-year anniversary.  In one variant, they failed to use a Cert. of Mailing.  And then the answers were still obscure (which statute should the examiner invoke, and should he consider it a broadening or non-broadening, when their broadening request came in non-timely?)

PCT:  three or four.   One threw in something about the Demand for Preliminary Examination, although it’s not clear to me that it was at all relevant to the question asked.

I think every single one had to do with a PCT app being filed before 11/29/2000!  And most of them threw in facts about the PCT app claiming priority to a foreign app.

One had to do with whether you could FAX your national stage application to the USRO.

One had to do with a PCT app where there were two missing parts of the spec, and the applicant filed them at two intervals.  I used online access to the Treaty and its Rules to figure out (I hope!) that there are only 30 days to do this, and so his 2nd submission was not entered.

Appeal:  at least four.

(continued))
Title: Prometric- part 2
Post by: ChiTownBob on 12-01-04 at 07:30 pm
(this is the second half of my posting)

One was about the applicant asserting the claims do not rise or fail together, and the Examiner’s Answer stating that they do, and the question was, what will the Board do as to the rejected claims?  Who would ever know this?

One was about how the applicant wanted to withdraw his appeal, once the Examiner’s Answer was filed, and have some new prior art considered, and you had to choose between filing an RCE and filing a Continuation.  

One was about the extent to which a Federal Court decision was binding on the Office:  if the Court finds it not invalid, or if the Court finds it invalid, etc.

One related to the Board having remanded to the Examiner with a new ground of rejection, and the applicant wanted to reinstate his appeal – did he need to file a new Appeal Brief or could he proceed without one?

Examiner’s search procedures:  one

Restriction:  at least three, maybe four.

One had to do with a Continuation of an app where a restriction requirement had been made, and the applicant had ignored the requirement and filed with all the original claims.

Oddly enough, there was nothing specifically about double patenting that I can recall.

Reexamination:  one or two, only on ex parte.

Death of the inventor:   at least three on this, and possibly four.   And in some, the answer choices were convoluted (“executor” vs “legal representative”).

Protest:  at least one, possibly two.

Interference:  nothing

SIR:  nothing

Small entity:  one or two, including who can sign the assertion of it.  One about if the small entity status changes before issuance.

Assignee:   one question was, what things can an assignee sign, if he has never properly recorded his ownership?   (I concluded it was “a Certificate of Correction”).  

There was nothing about the three-month requirement for recording an assignment, or conflicts about it.

Access to applications:  very little, maybe one, I think, about getting at the status of an application.  Also there was one, which I recognized from an old exam question, about whether an applicant could be excluded from access to the application.

Plant patents:  nothing

Design patents:  one.   I think it specifically told you that there was no patentable novelty other than the design, so you knew that the answer choice about filing a utility patent was out.

Ethics:  nothing, except for “duty to disclose” stuff.

112 paragraph 1:  one or two.   Some obscure answer choices about how the examiner approaches this issue.  

112 paragraph 2:  one.

Best mode:  one (one of the answer choices was:   if applicant doesn’t designate a best mode, but puts forth several embodiments).

112 paragraph 6:  one or two.  It was the old question about a claim with a door having a doorknob and something else, using “means” language, and the cited prior art discloses a handle, and how do you overcome the reference?  (I took the choice about reciting a negative limitation:  “no handle”.)

102(a):   at least one, which asked whether you had to file an English translation of a foreign-language reference.

103 rejections:  at least two, one about commercial success, one about experimental usage.   One of the questions asked if the examiner could make an unsupported

103 ( c ):  one or two

102(f):  there was a question I recognized from the old exams, about someone who’s visiting in another country and sees a great invention, and brings it back to the US.  (The old question was Mexico and an agave machine – this one was France and a grape-crusher!)

Foreign filing license:  one or two.  Only one of the choices recited the 45-day limitation for notifying the PTO, so that was the one I took.

Oath/ADS conflicts:  one

New matter:  very little, or nothing

Patent term adjustment:  one or two.  And that one was about an app filed before 5/29/2000, so that it was either easier than PTA questions could be, or harder, depending on how you look at it.

Reply to Office actions, SSP, etc:   there was at least one, and it had to do with the 2 month / 3 month thing for reply to a Final rejection and Advisory action thereto.

Interviews with examiners:  at least one, where you had to know if an interview is a matter of right.

1.131 affidavits:  hardly anything, maybe nothing.

Request for information by the Examiner:  one

Contents of the “background of the invention” section of the spec:  one

Submissions on CD-ROMs:  one, a really weird question about having lots of small tables in your spec.  I consulted the CFRs and found that CD-ROMs must be submitted in duplicate, which was one of the answer choices.

Maintenance fees:   I think one of the answer choices asked whether the patent owner had to authorize someone else to pay the maintenance fees or not;  can’t recall if the entire question was about maintenance.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: James Italia on 12-02-04 at 12:50 pm
Excellent memory Bob!  

We had the exact same test based on your description.

Looks like some of your answers were right, and some were....  :P

Not sure how fair it is posting exact questions, email me if you want to go over a couple.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Tom on 12-02-04 at 01:49 pm
i had half a dozen questions about application data sheets, but other than that Bob's statements were on par with my experiences.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: cassie on 12-02-04 at 04:28 pm
When did everyone take the test??
I took it Oct 18th and ... don't know WHEN to expect to hear back.

:-[
Thanks,

Cassie
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: m3000 on 12-04-04 at 12:19 pm
ive been using adobe 6.0 while preparing for the exam...does the actual exam at prometric allow you to search like 6.0 where the results are all displayed, or is it like adobe 5.0 where searching through the entire mpep takes forever?

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: James Italia on 12-06-04 at 03:18 pm
Use 5.0 and the find function for a more examlike experience.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Janthkin on 12-08-04 at 01:21 pm
Quote
When did everyone take the test??
I took it Oct 18th and ... don't know WHEN to expect to hear back.


As I mentioned earlier, I took the exam on October 4th.

I called the OED (again) yesterday, and was told that a) results hadn't been mailed yet; and b) results WOULD be mailed before the end of the year.  I guess that's something.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: aaarrrggghhh on 12-09-04 at 12:22 pm
I took the exam November 1.  Mine was very heavy on repeats from the October 2003 exam.  It felt like all the toughest questions from Oct. 2003 were repeated.  Other than that I can confirm what others have said about the questions.  Heavy on appeal stuff/reexam.

Called the OED today to find out when I might dare expect the results.  The lady told me the results will be mailed next week (curiously she did not ask me when I had taken the exam).  She definitely committed herself to NEXT WEEK, people!   :o   8)

I asked her if they were sending them out in a large batch and she said yes.  So it sounds to me like they accumulate a bunch of test results to be able to run statistics.  That would mean, if you take it early on in the current batch, you will have to wait longer than if you take it when their current batch is almost full.

I also asked her if she could at least verify that my exam answers had been received at the OED.  She said "no, can't go through all those letters".  I guess the concept of a database has escaped them.  In any case, it just felt strange after I took the test, just walking out of the Prometric building without any proof in hand that I actually took the exam and that my answers had safely arrived in some database.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: uspolicy on 12-09-04 at 01:02 pm
looks like results . . .

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/regprac14jan05_2.html



Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Tom on 12-09-04 at 01:20 pm
Something tells me not to hold my breath on the "next week" release.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: alecplumb on 12-09-04 at 02:28 pm
Quote
looks like results . . .

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/regprac14jan05_2.html





Hey, I'm on that list! Does that mean I passed?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: alecplumb on 12-09-04 at 02:38 pm
Quote

Hey, I'm on that list! Does that mean I passed?


I just called the OED. According to them, it is an "unofficial pass." Yay!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: waiting_no_more on 12-09-04 at 07:17 pm
This is funny. They publish a list without even telling you in advance that a list will be published! New address, new practice!
They should also have told people which was the last exam date taken into account. I have a friend who took the exam 3 weeks ago, and his/her name is not on the list. Does this mean that he/she didn't pass?

Anyway, I passed, so I guess I should be happy.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 12-09-04 at 08:37 pm
In response to the previous post...I took the exam about three weeks ago (Nov 16th) and my name isn't on there.  Although I'd be really happy to hear that I missed the cut-off, I'm assuming that I failed and expect a letter in the mail soon.  What is the latest test date of anybody on here who's name is on this list?  And this was my 2nd attempt too.  Damn it.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: sshaw on 12-10-04 at 07:50 am
I'm on the list too. I called the PTO and asked if that means I passed. They said unequivocally, "yes."

I'm still holding my breath until I get the letter.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 12-10-04 at 08:03 am
I took the test Nov. 12th and am also NOT on the list. Hope it is because of a cutoff. When did the people who see themselves take the test.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: sshaw on 12-10-04 at 08:06 am
I took mine October 18.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Tom on 12-10-04 at 08:08 am
I just called the OED.  If you took the test after November 8th, your name will not be listed. They said it will take 8 weeks to get the results. I guess they are getting another pool of people. I dont know if that means 8 weeks from the test date or 8 weeks from now though.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 12-10-04 at 08:17 am
Fantastic!  Thanks for finding that out, Tom.  I feel like I just got the proverbial stay of execution from the governor!

Here's hoping for good news later down the road....
Title: List of Those Who Passed is Now Posted
Post by: Passed on 12-10-04 at 08:25 am
There is a big list of people who passed now posted at:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/regprac14jan05_2.html
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: CNJ on 12-12-04 at 03:44 pm
Thanks for finding that out, Tom.  I did not find my name in the most recent exam result posting on PTO website.  I was going to whip out my study materials already until I found out that my exam result has actually not been published.  I took my exam on Nov 17th.  My wife was already on my tails because she would have had to spend a lot of time again with the kids while I study and she passed her patent bar in one shot last year.  Looks like there is still a glimmer of hope.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: cdoug81 on 12-12-04 at 10:03 pm
I took the exam on boundary of Nov 8th.  Will people let me know when the get the official rejection/acceptance in the mail so I can know whether to wait or not?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: aaarrrggghhh on 12-13-04 at 08:56 am
I took the exam on November 1st.   My name is on the ominous list.   :D   So this would be in line with the Nov 8th cutoff that other's have posted.  
Exhaling with caution while awaiting letter...

Does anyone know how long the comment period is - and how long will it take to actually become registered?

Best of luck to all of you.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: aaarrrggghhh on 12-13-04 at 09:11 am
By my count, there are 228 people on the list at http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/regprac14jan05_2.html

Wondering what the pass rate is - my bet is: 35 %.  October 2003 pass rate was 45 %

The answer to my own previous question is: the comment period will end on January 14, 2005.  Actually reading the information helps...  :P
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: aaarrrggghhh on 12-13-04 at 09:24 am
Whoa Nellie !

THERE IS ANOTHER LIST with 6 names:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/regprac14jan05.html

This one was posted 2 days before the long list.  Those not on the long list might want to check here.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: waiting patiently on 12-13-04 at 09:55 am
I am a bit comforted by the Nov. 8 deadline because I took the test on 11/12, but I am still not totally convinced. For those people who are on the list, can one of them let us know when you receive something in the mail?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 12-13-04 at 09:57 am
I am registered to take the exam in the very near future, but feel I need more time to prepare.  This would have been my first taking of the exam.  I am considering reapplying and taking the exam after my practice test scores improve.

Have any of you gone this route? Aside from the fees, is there a downside that I'm overlooking?  Is it OK to call the OED program director and let him know of my change of plans? Should I call anytime, or is it more considerate (expected) that you make an appointment?
Thanks.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: safin on 12-13-04 at 10:28 am
To waiting patiently:

I called the OED today.  They said if your name is on the list, it's a done deal - you passed.  They also said we should be getting our letters "any day now" and to simply follow instructions for final registration.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: uspolicy on 12-13-04 at 12:17 pm
Received results in mail today. Took it 9/30 and received results via mail today. Bummer! Will be taking it again soon. I shot myself in the foot by not reviewing the 10/2003 exam on paper. I used PLI from one year ago and the CD program review only included questions up to 4/2003. Well, now I know. Unfortunate for me since based on what I have read here, the exam had many similar or same questions from that exam.

Any suggestions from those of you who did pass? I spent the entire summer studying. I hope to get this done correctly on the 2nd try.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: SJY on 12-13-04 at 12:27 pm
Hi,

I'm relatively new to the site, so any questions that can be answered would be most helpful (of course, having read all the comments in this post has been most enlightening!  :)).

I am a newly-licensed lawyer in Toronto (summer/first-year associate with an IP practice), but with the job market in Canada being only so-so, I'm want to move south to the States to start my patent law career. Currently, I am planning to write the patent bar, but I'm curious as to whether being a foreign attorney impacts my registration with the USPTO.  (I hold dual citizenship -- born in US, naturalized Canadian -- but I don't think this has any effect on registration requirements.)

(Also an aside: based on advice from several US colleagues, I have been applying to NY, Boston and California, but have only received a lukewarm response, and I am also wondering if this is indicative of me being a foreign-trained attorney, OR lack of experience, OR...?)
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: aaarrrggghhh on 12-13-04 at 02:17 pm
I received my letter in the mail today, Monday Dec 13.  Postmarked Friday Dec. 10.  Luckily, the letter confirms what the online list promised - I passed!  
As stated previously, I took the exam on Nov. 1.

To those who are taking the exam soon or re-taking it:

I would try and schedule the exam ASAP even if you don't feel you're perfectly prepared.  The reason is: you never know when the PTO will modify the question pool.  By taking it soon, you maximize your chances of benefiting from all the exam question hints on this board.  It appears that the question pool is small, judging from the great deal of overlap between exam taker's reports on this board.  Personally, I think I passed only because someone on this board had recommended to know the Oct. 2003 exam inside and out.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: cdoug81 on 12-13-04 at 02:23 pm
I received my results today also.  A failing grade of 69/100.  Am I correct that there is not any way to dispute the results?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 12-13-04 at 03:12 pm
I took the exam Nov. 6th and my name is on the list. Here's the questions I remember:

1. First question - long, long fact pattern, but the inventorship was filed incorrectly - there was an answer choice that said that the application would not issue as a patent until the inventorship was corrected.

2. User Pass question - MPEP 510

3. New PCT question - Applicant files a PCT, but then changes his mind and files an international application - know what happens when the two conflict - not sure I got this one right, but I stared at it for about 15 minutes - I picked the choice that said that the International Application was O.K., but the PCT was not.

4. Final Rejection - all claims rejected,  except there remain dependent claims - the examiner should abandon the application.

5. Death of inventor BEFORE application filed - many facts indicated that inventor had possession of invention prior to death - legal rep. can file application - I think - check it to be sure.

6. Overcome 102 rejection - nonanalogous prior art -NO, teaches away- NO, does not solve same problem - YES.

Those are the ones I remember - it went by in a blur and I was very nervous!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: safin on 12-13-04 at 06:03 pm
Here's another hint on how to pass:  Memorize the questions and answers on every test administered since since 2001.  You'll recognize them in a second on the real test and it will take you another second to answer it.   That will give you plenty of time to look up any new questions they might throw at you.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Janthkin on 12-14-04 at 10:15 am
I, too, got my results yesterday, along with a letter from a recruiter congratulating me on passing & encouraging me to contact them.  Of course, when I told them I was a recent law school grad, they were less interested.  :(

Congrats to all that passed, condolences to all who didn't.  Definitely worked harder for this test than anything I've studied for before, and it paid off.  Now, if I can just find someone willing to pay for my mad patent skillz....
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: AFriend on 12-14-04 at 03:53 pm
Quote
Here's another hint on how to pass:  Memorize the questions and answers on every test administered since since 2001.  You'll recognize them in a second on the real test and it will take you another second to answer it.   That will give you plenty of time to look up any new questions they might throw at you.  


Others may differ, but I can't recommend this. I checked carefully same day as the exam, and there was no repeated question that was not on a 2003 exam. In fact, almost all repeats were from the Oct. '03 exam. So while knowing the earlier stuff won't harm you, you will be spending lots of time memorizing stuff you probably won't see.

I studied using both PRG and PLI SW, and from what I saw the PLI SW is closest for repeats, although do make sure to take the 10/03 exam that they offer on their CD. This is not to say that PLI teaches the subject "better", it just seemed to me that their SW looked more like the real exam, which now seems to have less to do with writing good applications, and more to do with *procedures* of interacting with the PTO to fix them. For either of these SWs, you will want to skew the questions toward procedure and away from e.g., antecedent basis and indefiniteness of claims and long fact patterns, to better model the current exam. Disclaimer: the PTO could change the mix any day now.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: safin on 12-15-04 at 02:20 pm
The PTO must use several different exams.  Although the majority of repeats were on the 10/03 test, I had at least one from the 10/01, 1 from the 4/02, and 4 from 4/03.

I agree that it's a good idea to do all the tests, anyway.  After going over them a second time, you'll have no choice but to remember the answers.  Since you can take the test any day of the week at any time of the year, you're not pressed for time as much as when the exam was offered only twice a year.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: GuestL on 12-16-04 at 06:46 pm
Just attend the exam and like to thank (and confirm with)
those sharing their experiences here. The information is
really helpful !! It turned out the exam is less difficult
than what I imagined originally. Here are some of my observation and suggestions:

1. Comparing with old exams, questions on the new exams are shorter in general. There is no fact pattern spanning multiple exams. (I finished first round of
both exam sessions in 1 and 1/2 hour).

2. There are definetely repeats (although I don't know exactly which old exams they are from).

3. Studying old exam questions are really useful. You
   should study them to the point that you fully
   understand why each anwser is right and wrong.
   Familiar with old exam questions DO buy you
   lots of time !!

4. One way to grasp the exam material is to make your
  own outline with the help of old exam questions and
  use software search tool to identify from MPEP where
  answers/explanation resides. I use PRI outline as
  starting point but believe many others will be useful
  as well.

5. You need to be familiar with where contents of your
   own outline sit on MPEP/rule/law. There are questions
   not present on any exam questions (dated back to
   97) you need to search MPEP for answsers. Seems
   to me the length of the exam questions do provide
   you the time for doing some search.

6. Here is the meat: one question posted by previous
   poster but I couldn't identify exactly what anwser
   it should be, even after the exam. The fact pattern
   lools like:

       1. two claims 1 and 2 rejected and appealed to
           the board.
       2. board affirm rejection on 1.
       3. board overturn rejection and 2.
       4. board enters new reject on 2.
       5. applicant chooses to reopen prosecution
           on 2.
       6. claim 2 rejected again.
       
       => so what should application do ?
   
            file new appeal on 2 ?
            file new appeal on 2 and get judicial review
                 on rejection 1 at the same time ?

            ...

        well, I don't know the answer ...

Hope this helps !!



Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: jay on 12-17-04 at 12:21 pm
hi,

Does it matter how many times you take to pass the patent bar?  

I've taken the patent bar back in September, and scored 59.  I'm thinking of taking it again in January (that gives me 3 weeks to study), but I may not have enough time to study to pass this time either.  should I take my chances or just take it later when I'm 100% ready?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 12-20-04 at 09:00 am
Please let me know about what percentage of questions were repeats from the October 2003 exam.  I'm making that part of my study strategy based on past recommendations in this thread, but I don't want to overrely on that.

Thank you.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Tom on 12-20-04 at 10:07 am
I saw about 10 questions out of the 100 that I was able to answer immediately after reading the first sentence.  I dont know how many were from teh Oct 03 exam though. I did the old exams, went over every question, and printed out the questions and answers that I had wrong. I also printed out ones that had been repeated over the past few years. I crammed by going over these questions again. After a few times going over these you cant help but to recognize questions and answers immediately.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 12-20-04 at 12:26 pm
Tom,
Thanks for your input - that information is very helpful.  I'll keep working the exams and hope to see a few repeats.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 12-21-04 at 08:34 am
I went back after the exam and totaled 28 questions that were taken verbatim from old exams. Of these, a majority were from October 2003.

Quote
Please let me know about what percentage of questions were repeats from the October 2003 exam.  I'm making that part of my study strategy based on past recommendations in this thread, but I don't want to overrely on that.

Thank you.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 12-22-04 at 05:30 pm
FYI:  there is another large batch of results posted on the OED site.  I think it was just posted today.  Anyway, I passed, so I am very happy!  (this was my second attempt).

Congrats to those who also passed, and for those who didn't, keep trying... perserverance pays off!

Ryan
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: CNJ on 12-23-04 at 04:57 am
I took the exam on Nov 17th and yes, my name is also on the list.  I am lucky to have passed on my first attempt.  It was probably a close call.  

To those of you who will be taking this exam, I would suggest doing a LOT of past questions (dating back to 90's).  I used the  BARBRI Oct 2003 materials that my wife used last year.  I did not look up anything in the exam.  There could have been a couple of questions that were quite obvious and easily searchable in the MPEP but don't count on getting too many answers that way under stress.  Yes, there were quite a number of repeats from Oct 2003 and quite a number of questions that I vaguely remember seeing somewhere.

Many thanks to all who posted good exam information on this site.  To those who will try again, I know how that feels (I thought I didn't pass for several days because my exam date missed the cutoff from the last big batch of results) and don't give up!        
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 12-23-04 at 08:10 am
I'm on!!!  What a great and unexpected holiday gift. Congrats to others on as well, condolences to those who are not named.  There has been plenty of great advice on this site, but I will offer my study strategy for those taking it in the near future.  I used the PatBar study guides. They have a detailed long outline and a quick review outline. I made my own outline based on their shorter version (just because I learn more by writing it out).  After I did this for every MPEP chapter, I started taking old tests.  I took the 10 tests from the previous five years. After reviewing both the questions I got right and wrong, I highlighted the portions of my outline that were asked about in the questions.  By doing this, it became clear that some questions were repeated over and over again and that some topics were questioned a lot while others were not.  You also need to do some extra work on PCT, appeals, reexam though.  I then printed out all of the questions and answers that I had gotten wrong from the past exams.  The day before and the day of the test, I crammed with those questions and answers and the highlighted portions of my outlines.  I swear that about 5 of the questions that I quickly looked at the morning of the test were on the exam--hard ones which I had gotten wrong previously, but was able to answer in seconds on the test.  The only other advice was that I looked up distinguishing phrases of the answers when I didn't know the answer off hand. Answers can often be word for word with what is found in the MPEP.  Use the MPEP index as well to get the general location for stuff. Hope this helps.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: James Italia on 12-26-04 at 12:51 pm
Quote
Took the exam Nov. 27th.  I experienced no problems with the software and the location was great (Prometric Glendale).  Here are my observations...

First some background.  I used the Kayton (PRG) Video materials from 2002.  I did not use the treatise and instead would watch the videos and go through the two volumes of materials that accompanied the videos.  I would make my own notecards for each chapter and then complete the chapter associated questions and make notecards on key pioints or missed questions.   Once I was through ALL the materials I had about 300 notecards (4x6) that were pretty much full using rather small handwriting.  

I knew there had been some changes since the 2002 materials were published so I checked the PTO website and updated those areas (ex. PCT practice, 102(e) etc.).

Once I had gone through everything once, I relied soley on my notecards.  After going through them a couple times I took the 9 computer based exams (Nov. 1999 to Oct. 2003)(see link in this thread for site).  After each exam I would again make notecards for each individual exam noting the same items as I mentioned above. My average score for all the exams was 86% (with no score under 80% and no score above 90%).  I think talking all these exams and making sure you understand the answers is key and so is the experience you gain by using the MPEP in electronic form to look up questions. When taking the practice tests, in particular with the more recent exams, I could get through the 50 questions in about and hour, marking about a 15 questions to check later in the MPEP.  I finished the practice exams about 5 days before the actual exam, I spent the next days reviewing all my cards and going through all the exams once more.

Now to the Exam...
Using this same technique with the actual exam, again I got through the 50 questions in about an hour and was left with about 20 questions to look up in the first part and about 15 to look up in the second part.  I marked more in the actual exam because I was being more careful than I was in the practice exams.  

I would say that of the 100 total questions about 25 were verbatim from old exams.  Another 50 were pretty straight foward if you knew the basics really well.  About 12 required you to look up in the MPEP to get the minutiae details. The remaining 13 questions were what I would describe as a little obscure, and would take some time and effort to find the answers.  And of those 13, I would say that I didn't find the definitive answer in the MPEP for about half of them.   So that left me with about 6 questions that I had to make an educated guess on and thankfully it was usually a 50/50 proposition.

I would say that I studied A LOT and that it paid off.   My overall impression is that the exam was fair and completely passable, but it did have a different feel to it when compared to the previous exams.  Definitely not as comfortable and I would say more difficult to degree than the others.  It left me with the impression that somebody "new" got their hands on this exam during its preparation. Some of the questions that dealt with simple material were skewed a little.  And with the PCT/102(e) questions, most of them for some reason were Pre-AIPA so that made them more difficult.

Well there you have it.  Let this be a thank you to the board for all the insight it provided me in my preparation.  I will post my results once I recieve them, i.e. whenever "due time" is.
  



As I posted earlier, I took the exam on Nov. 27th and just checked the list.  I am on it!  So in my case, I had results in less than a month.

So when it comes down to it, you know what the secret to passing this is exam is (simplifying my long winded explanation above).... putting in the time, 200-300 hours of serious studying.  It's really as simple as that.

Is there anything now that has to be done with respect to the moral character portion of the registration, or was that all included as part part of the original application?  When should I expect to receive my Reg. No.?

Good luck all.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: GuestL on 12-27-04 at 06:49 pm
Got an official passing notice from USPTO in one week after the exam.  However, I haven't found my name
posted yet. Looks like eventually pass/fail result might
be available  right after the exam :-)

I practiced all old exams before the real one and was
able to get average 90/100 grades in every one
from 98 - 03. Guess this is one way to make sure you
are ready !!

Good luck to all who are preparing for the exam. and hope my posts do help you in some way.


Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: James Italia on 12-27-04 at 09:06 pm
Quote

Is there anything now that has to be done with respect to the moral character portion of the registration, or was that all included as part part of the original application?  When should I expect to receive my Reg. No.?

Good luck all.



Received my letter with instructions today so my questions are answered.  

Need a Certificate of Good Standing from the highest court in my state (only for patent attorneys) and then you need to fill out a couple forms.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: a friend on 12-28-04 at 08:16 am
Quote
Please let me know about what percentage of questions were repeats from the October 2003 exam.  I'm making that part of my study strategy based on past recommendations in this thread, but I don't want to overrely on that.

Thank you.


I only noticed about 20 repeats (and I checked immediately after the exam), although, I believe there were a few more that were "very close", and yet more that were "similar". I did not see any repeats that did not appear on a 2003 exam. Most from Oct. '03. That is not to say that they did not originally appear on an earlier exam, but rather that they showed up again on an '03 exam.

So you may get only 20% direct repeats. However, I believe that the other questions on the '03 exams are still about the best study material for  a real exam. I mean really understanding all the answers, and if time permits, knowing where in MPEP they came from.

Except of course that all the hints on this list  should also be investigated:)

However I think this should be supplemented with some practice searching MPEP using Acrobat 5.0 or 5.1, because some truly odd questions do show up, and the fact that they are so odd actually makes them easier to search for by computer. I had about 30 min left after guessing the answers in each session, and am quite sure that I corrected a couple answers by searching MPEP.

This may have made the difference--I passed first time !
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bjlbyron on 12-28-04 at 01:40 pm
I sent in my application to re-take the exam on Nov 30th (I failed the Oct 2003 exam) and I have not heard back from the PTO.  When I called the PTO earlier this afternoon, I was informed that there is currently a 6 week turn around for processing applications to take the exam.  I am a bit surprised by this because a friend heard back less than 2 weeks after applying in October.  Is there anyone else out there who has been waiting a similar period of time?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: GuestL on 12-28-04 at 05:35 pm
About PCT questions in the exam. I took
in mid Dec., I remember the rule in applying new prior art created by  the changes to 102(e) showed up in
TWO questions. It is described in the last paragraph
of MEPE 901.03. Pay special attention to the 2nd
condition that an application "pending on 11-29-00"
and "voluntarily published". I believe they are repeats,
although not verbatim.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: gee on 12-28-04 at 06:28 pm
For bjlbyron:   The OED received my application to take the exam on Nov. 30 and they sent out my approval notice on Dec. 15.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bjlbyron on 12-29-04 at 12:13 pm
Thanks, gee.  I should have remained patient for one more day...my approval letter came in today's mail.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: wcferr01 on 12-30-04 at 11:52 am
Just found out I passed.  I would like to thank everyone in this forum for all of the insight.  It was very therapeutic while wating for the results.  Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: ChiTownBob on 01-04-05 at 03:06 pm
Congratulations to James Italia, with whom I've corresponded privately.  And I also passed!  

(but I know this by getting an actual letter from the PTO -- I don't know what public list I'm on, but I must be on one somewhere, since I've gotten letters from recruiters!)

I made an earlier post with a very detailed list of the questions that I could remember (it's around page 7 or 8 of this forum).   My only advice to everyone is, go over all 1850 or so past exam questions, however you can get them (mine came from the PRG course).   Yes, it takes a lot of time.   Since I don't know what my score was, I have no way of knowing if I overstudied or not.   But some of those questions were so hairy that I'm glad for every second I spent studying.  

And definitely you should know WHERE in the MPEP and  the CFRs to look for stuff.   I did have enough time to look things up, and in at least one case (one of the PCT questions), it made the difference.

Cheers,

Bob
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: ttglink on 01-08-05 at 12:38 pm
I am scheduled to take exam on January 20 in DFW, TX.  Has anyone experienced problems with computers / search at Dallas location?  

As others have mentioned, there are more Qs on PCT and Biotechnology in the recent exams.  Prof. Kayton's program is not adequate in these subjects.  Any last minute advise? How difficult are the questions on PCT? Are they somewhat similar to practice questions in study material or require in-depth search of MPEP?





 

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: GL on 01-09-05 at 11:42 pm
For PCT questions, my advice would be:

1. Understand fully the impact of AIPA on PCT and
   102(e).   Prof. Kayton's material should have
   already covered  a majority of this.

2. Make sure you could answer all PCT and 102(e)
   related questions in 2003, 2002 and 2001 exams.
   (and  know the reason clearly the reason behind.

3. Read all the hints posted in this Forum (very
  important !! luckily, I did this before taking the
  exam.)

Good luck and have fun !!

GL
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: PCT on 01-10-05 at 02:24 pm
How long is it taking to get the exam results back these days?

When will you be able to get the results instantaneously?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: yosar on 01-16-05 at 02:05 pm
Has anyone taken the Patent Bar Exam at Prometric site in San Jose, CA at 4030 Moorpark Ave, Suite 280.  

There are 3 test site numbers for this one address: 0008, 0014 and 0047.  Is there any difference in the equipment or site rooms.  Prometric won't let anyone view the equipment/rooms in advance.  

Separate Question: Any indication when testing will switch to MPEP 8th Ed, R2 [2004].   Thank you for your reply.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Glen G. on 01-19-05 at 09:34 pm
FYI

Called the OED.
The lists of names posted on the PTO website on 1/19/04 are for exams taken 12/6/04 and earlier.  So if you took it after 12/6/04, (as I did) you are still alive.

Keep the dream alive!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: buttersworth on 01-26-05 at 06:36 pm
Anyone take the patent bar in the past few weeks?  If so, are you on the updated 1-26-2005 list on the USPTO site?
Thanks
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 01-27-05 at 08:40 am
The USPTO updated the list of registered patent attorneys today.

If you are on the January 14th list of persons who passed the exam and you sent in your fee and paperwork quickly you may have received your registration number.

Search the database of registered attorneys on the website ; and you may find your name. I found my registration number......Woo Hoo..... No more tests ever again!!! hahahahaha. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Jonathan on 01-27-05 at 09:14 am
Actually, you may be re-tested at some point in the future. Nothing as lengthy and involved as the patent bar exam but some sort of re-certification.

The OED made the re-certification proposal for registered patent practitioners about a year ago. However, I haven't heard anything about it since.

If I remember correctly, the proposal provided for re-testing practitioners every 2 to 3 years via an online test that can be taken an unlimited number of times in a certain time period, until the practitioner passes.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 01-27-05 at 11:58 am
Please send a link to the January 26th list of folks who passed.  The latest update I see is January 19th.
Thanks!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 01-27-05 at 07:45 pm
Anyone take the exam a second time yet using the new electronic format both times? Curious as to similarities.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: gee on 01-28-05 at 02:23 pm
I took the "patent bar" exam in early January and today I called the OED to ask when results from early January exams would be available.  The lady said "Those who took the exam between December 6 and January 6 will have their results within two weeks"    I asked did that mean two weeks from today or did that mean that those people should have recieved their results within two weeks from their exam date.  She then simply repeated  the exact same response.   We talked a little about the OED posted results and the mailing of the results.  Before I hung up, I asked her again directly about what the "results within two weeks" meant exactly.   For the third time, I got the exact same quote with absolutely no further explanation.   It was like she was only permitted to answer by following a scripted response.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Susie on 01-31-05 at 11:31 am
I took the exam the end of December and only received my letter from the PTO today.  (I passed!)
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Exam Hostage on 02-03-05 at 05:42 pm
Hi! On Feb 2, the PTO posted a new list with registration notices of people who passed the Patent Bar Exam. Anyone on it? If so, when did you take the exam?

I took mine on Jan 18 and I am not on the list. But apparently the list is for people who took the exam before Jan 6.

Any thoughts? Thanks!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: jimbo on 02-03-05 at 06:16 pm
Hi,
I took the test on Jan 19 and am not on the list.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Susie on 02-04-05 at 07:18 am
My letter from the PTO telling me I passed the exam is dated 1/28/05--and I am not on the list they posted on 2/2/05.

So I think they are a little behind and/or out of sync.  I took the exam right after X-mas.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Nick Z on 02-04-05 at 12:08 pm
your name wont appear on the list until you send in the oath and affadavit sent by the USPTO upon passing.  Took the exam 22nd Dec. received passing notification on 2 Feb.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: gonz on 02-04-05 at 03:45 pm
Hi as you know, the rule was changed last year.

See
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/bpai/fr2004/moreinfo.html

Slide Set: Rules of Practice Before the Board of Patent Appeals and Interferences, Final Rule (posted 16Sep2004)

Please let me know if you have to study this change or not to take the examination in March.


Thanks
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: OED, pick me, pick me! on 02-04-05 at 04:50 pm
 A couple of things: First, to respond to the last post. If you are taking the exam like, in the next month or so, rarely will you see a fact pattern emphasizing something that takes place post/or even late 2004. Therefore, it is highly unlikely you will need to know a rule change effective September 2004, for now.

I just finished taking the exam a couple of hours ago, and alas, my screen said, "you will receive your results in due time". I love that vague wording.... I WANNA KNOW NOW!!!  :P  Oh well, by the looks of it, the PTO is processing results in monthly batches, hence the 12/6 to 1/6 cut off date, and it seems some people on this board who took the exam in that time frame received there results at the same time, aruond 1/28 or 2/2.   So i'm assuming, at the very least, the 1/7 to 2/7 batch might receive there results sometime in the beginning of march. Don't take my word for it, just an educated guess.

As for the exam in general: My first portion was extremely easy.  I only had to bookmark 5 questions or so, and found the answer to all of those in a more thorough investigation  of the MPEP. There were alot of repeats in this part, especially from Oct. 2003.  ( alot from oct. 2003 in general) But, my surprise wouldn't last long, as the 2nd part of the exam was about 3x as hard as the first. For some reason, (maybe the randomized selection of questions) my second portion of the exam was extremely dense with very vaguely worded questions, tricky answers, etc... The content of the questions seemed to be very heavy on Reissue/Re-exam/Appeal, and sometimes, a combination of all 3 it seemed. Some PCT in there, more than usual on the 103 questions,  i'll post some more later, but for now, i just need to flush this stuff out of my mind!!!!!


Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 02-08-05 at 11:12 am
Anyone take the Patent bar after Jan 15 and receive their scores?  Also, is you name on the Feb. 8 updated list?
Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Exam Hostage on 02-08-05 at 12:19 pm
Took the Exam on Jan 18. My name is not on Feb 8 List/Registration Notices. I just hope it does not mean that I did not pass.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: gonz on 02-08-05 at 02:03 pm
took the exam Jan 27 and no name.
But my friend took it Dec 27 and I found his name.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: I heart IDS on 02-08-05 at 02:18 pm
I have an idea....  perhaps we can more accurately guess the timeline for receiving results if anyone who can please reply with the date you took the test and the date you got your results or saw your name on the OED list, whichever occurred first. If you did not receive your results yet or or not on the list, don't respond, just want to see what the timing is like. If we compile enough info, i'm sure we can guesstimate the next couple "release dates" Thanks!

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 02-08-05 at 07:35 pm
Wow.  That's the worst idea I have ever heard.

1.  People who received their scores DO NOT CARE.
2. It is just as easy to determine the same thing by finding out who hasn't heard and those people are more likely to post

Thanks for ruining this entire thread.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: OED, pick me, pick me! on 02-09-05 at 09:16 am
Wow, that was kind of silly. For what its worth, i took mine feb. 4th, definitely won't be expecting my results for another 3 or 4 weeks.

In fact, i think the inverse of that idea is probably better, and besides, if you scroll back through these messages, you can somewhat figure it out.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Application Data Sheet on 02-09-05 at 01:21 pm
I took my exam Jan 31st.  No result yet.  :-/

After a quick once-over of this thread, I picked out at least three general dates where OED mailed out notices: October 1st, December 27th, and January 26th.  [There might be other dates, but I just gave the thread a cursory review, and there might have been other release dates that no contributors to this thread have mentioned.]  Further, if the January 27th release date was in fact a mass notice mailed to everyone who took the exam within the 12/6 - 1/6 window, maybe we can speculate that there will be another mailing around the end of February for people taking the exam between approximately 1/7 and the beginning of this week?

On the other hand, the list OED released yesterday was pretty long.  Anyone have any new information about OED testing windows/notice mailing dates?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: gonnz on 02-10-05 at 01:20 pm
Does anyone have any information about regrading?
See CFR 10.7 (c)
Is there still any chance to pass the exam even if  your score was under 70?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: CEE on 02-11-05 at 04:03 pm
I took the exam on Oct. 30, and my result was posted on Dec 9, with Jan 14 as my registration date.  The 11 or 12 days of waiting after the 14th for the my registration certificate to arrive in the mail seemed to take forever.  

Practice, practice, practice on real exam questions, and memorize the chapter numbers of those you'll most commonly access in the MPEP (e.g., 700-Examination, 1200-Appeal, 1400-Correction (Reissue), 1800 - PCT, 2100-Patentability, 2300-Interferences, etc) so that you can get to them quickly.  The exam simulator available at http://www.upstartraising.com provided invaluable preparation (I have absolutely no affiliation with the site..).

I had no problems with the computerized version.

Good luck to all!

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Waiiiiiiiiting on 02-15-05 at 11:08 am
I would agree with the above. That upstartraising website was really on target as far as preparation, especially in the manner the MPEP was presented ( divided by chapter). However, note that the questions on the new exam tend to be shorter and a bit more cryptic than previous exams. Other than that, good piece of software. (there is a small fee though)

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: James Italia on 02-16-05 at 02:49 pm
Here's my timeline:

Took exam:  11/27/04
Results:    12/26/04
Reg. No.:   02/16/05

Not sure when my Registration Number was granted because, just on a whim, I checked the patent attorney/agent search database on the PTO website today and I was on it. I was told that it took three months from publishing my name inthe Gazette before I would receive my number, so I pleasently surprised it had already been completed.  :)



Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: gonz on 02-16-05 at 05:38 pm
Does anybody recently receive the result from OED?
I took the exam January 27 th. I heard that recently OED tends to send letters to people who could not pass the exam earlier than others. Is it true?
I can't wait any more...uuu
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 02-17-05 at 01:04 pm
Hey,

I took the test on Jan 18th which was over 4 weeks ago.  I called and was told "they didn't even get that batch yet."

I have no idea what that means.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: CNJ on 02-18-05 at 04:29 pm
Did anyone registered on Feb 5 receive their registration certificate?  I wonder if mine got lost in the mail.  Any information would be greatly appreciated.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 02-19-05 at 10:34 am
Anyone receive their patent bar score lately and if so, when did you take the test?  

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: CNJ on 02-19-05 at 02:21 pm
Got my registration certificate in the mail today finally.  Good luck to all in your future undertakings.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Exam Hostage on 02-21-05 at 08:57 pm
Took the exam on Jan 18. Got my passing note on Feb 19.

Good luck to all!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: gonnz on 02-22-05 at 09:13 am
Congratulations!!!  
Thank you for the information.
I hope I will pass it also.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 02-22-05 at 01:30 pm
I took the exam on 2/2 and have not heard back yet.  I spoke to someone at OED today and he said that the list posted 2/8 was for those people who took the exam between 12/16 and 1/6.  "The new list continues from there."  No end date for today's list was given upon repeated asking.  

Soon enough....
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: EEEEEK on 02-22-05 at 02:14 pm
I took my exam on Feb. 4th and didn't receive anything the mail nor is my name on the list.

Well, the new list contains about 43 names and the last big batch was 76. Perhaps the OED is starting to do things in smaller chunks? Assuming the same average number of people took the test between 12/6-1/6 and 1/7 to 2/7,  there is no other explanation for what seems to be a 30% drop in the pass rate other than the OED changing its method of processing the results. Any ideas? more info?

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Gonz on 02-22-05 at 03:42 pm
I called OED today.
I talked with a lady. She said "The result of those people who took the exam 1/27 is not under public yet".
She also said the results for those people who took the exam by 1/20 have been sent.
I guess that today's list is for those people who took the exam by1/20.
I believe that since, compared with the latest window (1/7-1/20), greater number of people took the exam during the second latest window (12/26-1/6), the number of the people on today's list was smaller than that of the former one(2/8).

Does anybody who took the exam after 1/21 find your name on the list?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Gonz on 02-22-05 at 03:45 pm
I am not sure why  8) appeared on my message.
The former one was as you know Feb 8th.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: ttglink on 02-22-05 at 04:44 pm
I took exam on January 21st.  Have not received a letter or my name is not on today's list.  I called OED at about 10:30 AM. Customer service  person had no idea what were the cut-off dates for today's listing.  The previous post suggests that the list is for those who took exam between January 6 and January 20!  

Anyone else can reconfirm this?  

The simplest thing for OED to do is to post time period for which results are posted.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: InExamHades on 02-23-05 at 02:41 pm
I took the exam on January 22nd and I too have not received a letter (good or bad) from the PTO and am further dicontented by the absence of my name on the most recent list!

Good or bad, I would feel better knowing.  I thought the exam required 70% correct to pass.  How hard can that be to grade?  What in the heck is their problem?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Jordan on 02-23-05 at 04:25 pm
Of anyone who took the most recent patent exam, is anyone interested in selling the study materials.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Patton on 02-23-05 at 04:35 pm
If anyone is interested in selling materials for the patent exam email me at jgurevich@hotmail.com
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: CNJ on 02-23-05 at 05:14 pm
I am getting rid of my Nov 2003 BARBRI Patent Bar Homestudy CDs and handouts.  Yes I used them to study for my exam in 2004 and passed in my first try.  Make me an offer or better yet, if you have the latest ASME Mechanical PE Homestudy DVDs, I would love to trade my patent bar stuff for your DVDs.  Thanks.

cnjong@rochester.rr.com  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Johnny Appleton on 02-24-05 at 09:13 pm
Anyone know when same day results will be available after taking the exam?  I just sent in my application to take the exam, but want to wait until I can get instant gratification (if it's within the 90 day time window, of course).  I thought that was the PTO's original goal...to provide immediate results in early 2005.  

Any recent takers notice a new trend in questions?  Care to post any difficult questions that stuck in your head?


Thx
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Reissue This! on 02-25-05 at 07:30 am
Took the exam on 31st.  [Still no results.  :(]  My test focused primarily on PCT, ex parte reexaminations, appeals, and reissues.  The test didn't focus so much on "basic" patentability stuff, or technical claim stuff.  I think my experience was in-line with what others have reported.  So I'd answer, "No, there haven't been substantial recent changes in the test."

Anyone else got another take on it?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: finally made it on 02-26-05 at 01:10 pm
Took it 31st of January.  Just got results in mail today. Passed. What a relief. Thanks to all who posted commentary here.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Bar This! on 02-26-05 at 01:59 pm
Thanks for all of the posts . . . at least I know that I'm not alone in being frustrated with the new process.  Here is my timeline:
01/29 = took exam
02/26 = received results (passing) via letter
Name not on 02/22 list but likely will be on the next one

Good luck to all--it is doable!  My comments on the exam:  (1) the questions generally seemed shorter than those on past (written) exams; (2) a number of questions tested on the exact wording used by the MPEP (so know what the MPEP says and where to look in case you can't remember); (3) be ready for one or two really odd-ball questions that you'll likely never find the answer to in the MPEP (don't waste time searching in frustration, just use common sense).
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Festo on 02-26-05 at 04:21 pm
Just so no one else almost has a heart attack checking the mail today...

Took my exam 2/4, did NOT receive my results in the mail today. Looks like i'll be in the next batch next week, if everything is processing the same as it has been in the last couple of weeks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Gondz on 02-27-05 at 08:35 am
My guess seemed to be correct. I feel relieved.
Took the exam on Jan 27 and got my good results the day before yesterday.

In my exam, I saw some long and tough questions. After the exam, I found them in past exam. They were on a 2000 exam. The priority is, of course, in 2003, however I recommend you to answer questions in 2000 also.

Good luck to all!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Cheryl on 02-28-05 at 06:48 am
Hi, I was wondering that the time was typically to get the approval letter from the USPTO to take the test.

I sent my application in Feb 10th, the PTO recieved it the 15th (they stamped my postcard), and my credit card was charged the 20th.  Here it is now Feb 28th and I still have not gotten my letter.  I would like to sign up for the test soon.

On average, how long did it take you to get your approval letter back so you could register for the exam?

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Zippy on 02-28-05 at 11:40 am
Cheryl, It took about two weeks for me to get my approval letter from the PTO.  From what I have read, I think that is a pretty standard timeframe if your application was in order and you apply  with a standard technical background.

On another note, here is my time frame for the exam and results.
1/28 - took exam
2/28 - my name is on the list at the OED website, but no pass letter yet.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Reissue This! on 02-28-05 at 01:09 pm
Took the test Jan 31st.  Got my letter today.  Scored a 68.   :'(

Anyone know if reapplications are processed faster than regular applications?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Tom on 02-28-05 at 01:42 pm
Took exam on 1 Feb 05,
Got results today, 28 Feb 05

Passed :D
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Zippy on 02-28-05 at 02:01 pm
Got my letter (passing) today.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: FYI on 02-28-05 at 02:52 pm
FYI, the new list on the PTO website is for those who took the exam between 1/20 and 2/2.

I took mine 2/4, haven't received mail yet:( stilll waiiiiiiiiting.


Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Frustration! on 03-02-05 at 01:43 pm
Alright, i have concluded that the USPTO has no method for its madness when it comes to releasing test results.  

Results for those who took the exam like 2/1 and 2/2 were mailed out late last week and received saturday and monday (see previous posts) So you would ASSUME that those who took the exam 2/3 or 2/4 would have their results sent monday/tuesday. well, they weren't ( i asked yesterday). I also doubt that OED will place a new list up there anytime soon ( probably in a week or so). So basically, im' stuck here waiting in agony, hoping that my results aren't "shifted" into a possible "next batch of mailings" that might not take place for a couple of weeks!!!!!!!!

Anyone else have similar frustrations... please vent! To repel any criticism, i feel that my frustration is well justified considering the format of the exam, as well as the prior promise of instant results...... argh!

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: melwrc on 03-02-05 at 03:45 pm
The PTO hasn't promised instant results yet, but that is the eventual goal.  I'd like to see the format go to where they keep a running tally of confirmed answers (can't go back after confirmation of that particular answer).  Then the test ends when you hit 70 pts.  Besides, they don't tell you a passing score, so why make you do all 100 if you are doing well.

They are processing in batches for sure.  This is evident by the dates and average quantity of names they have posted in the list of "those seeking registration (i.e. people that passed)."  If you miss the cut by a day, you'll be on the next mailing, but there is no certain timeframe for it.  Just have to wait because calling the PTO will not get you anything.  
Good luck on getting your pass.  I took my test on 2/25. so I'll be waiting longer unless they build up a really big batch.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Susie on 03-03-05 at 07:22 am
I agree that the "batch processing" is maddening.  A colleague of mine and I both took the exam in December, about 2 weeks apart.  He had his results by the end of December (less than 2 weeks after he took the exam);  I didn't get mine until 5-6 weeks after my exam.  And because his name got posted on the OED site before he received his letter telling him he passed, he got his registration number the beginning of February and I won't get mine until the end of March.  My name didn't get posted until more than a week after I received my letter.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: David on 03-03-05 at 07:51 am
I agree a more appropriate format is to show a big YOU PASSED screen when you hit seventy.  Of course, if you get to question 99 without it,  that would be quite stressful.

I took my exam on 2/26 and have an odd expectation of a response by late March, based upon other reports through this string.  Of course, the Office is probably monitoring this and I will not get my results until November.

For those of you preparing, my advice, as you will see from many others, is to (1) study the 2003 exams closely because there were many similar questions; and (2) know where material is in the MPEP so you can quickly reference through the pdf by chapter.  I found the pdf format to be advantageous as it is easier to reference material.  The paper version offered once a year by the Office would now be far more difficult because they provide an MPEP.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Inside Info on 03-03-05 at 02:34 pm
Called OED today to check on results. There is a batch of mailings going out tommorow,  and the posting of names is supposed to occur at the same time. Not sure what the cutoff for tommorow's batch is supposed to be, but i know 2/4 will be in it!!!

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: USPTO= Geniuses on 03-07-05 at 04:47 pm
Well, the geniuses at the USPTO did it again. They posted somehting to the names list today, but no one will be able to see what the actual names are until tommorow because someone forgot to upload the actual file with the names.... another 24 hours of agony.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: kram on 03-07-05 at 05:30 pm
Yep, I wasted a good part of my work day refreshing the page; falsely theorizing that the fine folks at the USPTO would figure it out.  I should know better.  However to be fair, they may have noticed the problem but were unable to determine who should actually upload the file after drawing a tie in rock, paper, scissors.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Cilantro13 on 03-08-05 at 07:14 am
kram:

C'mon, we all know that the patent office rotates their games. One day they play paper, one day rock, and one day scissors. Thus, the tie. And thus some of the retarded questions on the patent exam.

I take it tomorrow. Ug.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: SW on 03-08-05 at 07:59 am
I took exam on Feb. 22 but my name is NOT on today's list. Has anyone with similar exam dates got result?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Ed Dontee on 03-08-05 at 09:42 am
I took the exam on Feb. 12, and got my name on the list today.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: NoMorePLI!!!!! on 03-08-05 at 10:42 am

Took the Exam on February 4th. After days of persistance in pressing "refresh" on my web browser, my compulsiveness has paid off: found my name on the list today ;D

Good luck to everyone else.

Regarding those who might be nervous regarding the names, they seem to have split the "batches" in half now, coming out with results every 2 weeks or so. The last cutoff was february 2, so these names start from february 3rd....

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 03-09-05 at 11:20 am
Anyone else get their test results....and if so when was your test date??????
__________________________
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Cilantro13 on 03-09-05 at 03:23 pm
Just finished the test. Yikes! Whereas I was averaging about 90% on timed practice tests and finishing them in around 2.5 hours, the new test just killed me. In fact, I was so time pressured in the test, I was ready to walk about with 15 questions left... That said, I am confident I will be coughing up another $450 for a May run at the exam. I would say that (1) the questions were overall harder and (2) there were very few repeat questions. One question I did see was a repeat from Oct 2003 in which all the answers were accepted (it involved H and S), so I am not sure what the PTO is up to or trying to prove with the exam.

What I remember as far as questions:
1. Lots of PCT (none on the first half, but about 10 on the second half). Most of the questions tended to ask for obscure facts, like how long you have to correct a PCT application with no address after you are invited to correct the problem. One PCT question asked about what is required if you don't make a demand and want to proceed straight to the national stage and gave 5 very distinct fact patterns with how to accomplish it and what needs to be filed. One of the answers I narrowed it down to added on top of what seemed to be the right answer, whether you had to pay a surcharge because there was no international search done. I think I picked that one because the other answers looked worse to me, and I didn't have time to look up all of the various nuances addressed by the question.

2. Very few old questions (maybe 10 on my test), some of them with changed answers forcing lookups.

3. Very little in the way of straight forward questions. In other words I think I was asked about what would patentable, but that was about it.

4. Two or three questions with very similar fact patterns, but with different dates and asking questions relating to when a reference qualifies for 102(e), or where to measure the patent term. One asked about a PCT app that was filed in Germany before Nov 29, 2000 (I think the date was in 95 or 96) and asked when to measure the US patent term (I hope it was from the date of the PCT application and not when it entered the national stage).
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Cilantro13 on 03-09-05 at 03:24 pm
5. If you want to simulate the online MPEP with prometric, you need to save a version of all of the chapters of the MPEP with none of the bookmarks expanded. I got used to looking at all of the chapters and subchapters expanded, and it was hard not having a full layout to look at as they are when you download them off the USPTO website. On that note, if you download the MPEP anytime recently, you get v8.2, but the version they test with is still v8.1. They really should make available the one you will test with. The search feature works pretty good because it only searches one chapter.

6. I had a lot of reexam and reissue, especially as they related to third parties.

7. A lot of appeal on my test, including one gem that asked about what happens when the Appeal Board comes up with a new ground of rejection. The fact pattern went something like, you reply to new ground of rejection, and in so doing you also reply to the old grounds for rejection that were affirmed. I think that it just goes to issue, but it was one of the questions where I was already a question behind and couldn’t spend too much time with it.

8. A ton of questions on traversing obviousness and 102(e).

9. Be prepared for a number of poorly written questions with very vague answers. One had a fact pattern involving Jones, then Smith shows up in the answers, but you have no idea whom Smith is or what role he is playing. I hope that it was one of the two answers not involving Smith because I have no idea where Smith came from.

10. I couldn’t afford a review course, and I studied only from old tests. I felt pretty confident going in, but I am not sure how prepared a review course would get you over my study method because the test focuses so heavily on obscure issues. I studied from a friend’s Patbar last year (before I had to punt on the Patent exam because the registration materials did not go up before I shifted to study for the real bar exam). I can affirmatively say that Patbar would not have prepared me any better for the test.


My other suggestions:
1.      Read 700, 2100, and 1800 multiple times. I reluctantly would say that this might be more beneficial than lots of old exams (except the 2003 exams). There just are not enough repeats to spend a huge portion of time on the old exams.
2.      On the test, skip all of the PCT questions until last. I spent so much time looking for answers, that I had to rush through other issues that I was more prepared for (because they had been on previous tests). The problem with the PCT that I found on the exam, is that the PCT sections are much harder to search with the search function and not indexed very well (at least for what they are asking). Consequently, I spent a great deal of time just trying to locate the correct section where with other topics I could have found the section quickly, but would spent my time hunting for the answer.
3.      Expect to be time pressured. Try practice exams where you only have 2.5 or 2 hours to get used to the pressure.
4.      On your scratch paper, number 1-50 and write in ABCDE and cross them off as you eliminate. I did that for the second section and it took me 5 minutes during my lunch break (which is one hour). Better to spend the 5 minutes on the test than writing on your paper so that you don’t have to play the memory game eliminating answers. The first part of the test is 15 minutes and it is exactly the same as the tutorial posted on the USPTO site.

Sorry for bad grammer, etc. I am dumping while it is fresh and want to go veg out. Good luck to everybody. I hope you did better than me!!!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Impatient on 03-12-05 at 06:25 am
Anyone else get their results lately?  if so what was your test date?
__________________________
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Johnny Appleton on 03-12-05 at 03:58 pm
Anyone else remember any particularly tough questions?  I am a student taking the exam next month.  I have also been studying just from the MPEP as the prep courses are too expensive.  I feel prepared, but all this talk makes me nervous.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Every question counts! (and I cannot afford to take the exam again)
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Impatient on 03-15-05 at 08:27 am
Anyone get their test results lately?  If so when was your exam date?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Im on the list on 03-15-05 at 11:49 am
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/regprac29apr05.html

There's a new list of names at the OED posted today.

I took the exam on March 4, and my name is on the list.

That means I passed, right?

If I get a failing letter, I'll be pretty angry.  >:(
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bjlbyron on 03-15-05 at 12:25 pm
I took the exam on March 2nd and I am also on the list!

Congratulations to the previous poster.  I'll have a beer in your honor tonight.  ;)
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: izzy on 03-15-05 at 12:48 pm
i took the test on feb. 22 and am on the list  :)

anybody need to purchase kayton's 2004 video series course?  it will include an MPEP revision 2, for those who take the test on or after June 2, 2005.

just send me an e-mail.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Amazed on 03-15-05 at 01:13 pm
wow, results in less than two weeks.....congrats!!!  Looks like the PTO is speeding things up...
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: punipuni on 03-15-05 at 01:16 pm
Does anyone who took the exam on March 7th find your name on Today's list?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Im on the list on 03-15-05 at 01:19 pm
Congrats to everyone on the list.  ;D

Personally, I never saw any of the questions that other posters described.

One thing I did see is a lot of questions copied exactly from the October 2003 exam.  

Thank goodness I studied the Oct 2003 exam thoroughly or I'd probably be freaking out because my name wasn't on the list.

I'd say knowing all the answers to the Oct 2003 exam should be good for at least 10 to 15 freebie points.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Amazed on 03-15-05 at 01:22 pm
recent poster when did you take the exam?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: 102e on 03-15-05 at 01:32 pm
info from OD...the recent posting contains the names of those who passed from 2/22-3/3.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bjlbyron on 03-15-05 at 01:35 pm
I listed my PRG video review course on eBay if anyone's interested.  Listing number is:  6951801685
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: melwrc on 03-15-05 at 01:45 pm
I took it Feb 25 and am on today's list.  I was feeling special about having received results so quickly compared to the typical 4+ wks, but now I'm jealous of all the people with results in 2 wks.  I'll get over it though.  Congratulations to all the new patent agents/attys.

I posted detailed comments about my particular test under a topic "a  sample from the pool of questions."  I hope that it can help those of you looking to take the patent bar.  As always, your results may vary, but overall it seemed to be inline with other experiences I've heard about.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Im on the list on 03-15-05 at 02:04 pm
Oops I said March 4.  It was really March 2. My bad.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: &quot;John White here.....&quot; on 03-15-05 at 05:52 pm
To the previous poster... your previous post probably caused about 40 heart attacks. But you redeemed yourself, props for that.

good luck everyone else:) I had to wait 4+ weeks for my pass letter, looks like the PTO is actually starting to function better with the 2 week turn around.

p.s. - anyone get the inside joke in my name..... it forever haunts me.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: melwrc on 03-15-05 at 05:59 pm
you actually kept listening to those PLI cd's?  I had them in my car for the work commute, but quit putting new ones in for the safety of myself and others.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: john on 03-15-05 at 10:08 pm
to everyone that has posted on here, thank you.

i'm taking the test in chicago on friday and the nerves are starting to kick in... i've been studying for the past two months and now i'm going through old tests and reviewing flashcards that i made while going through my review course.

any last-minute suggestions for someone who wants to make sure they don't have to go through this all over again in two months?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: David on 03-16-05 at 06:59 am
To the previous poster, relax.

I also passed, and did so with the help of a review course.  For those preparing, I strongly suggest attending one or getting your hands on old materials because it will help solidify core concepts.

Otherwise, helpful things would be:

1.  Review and be familiar with both 2003 exams.  At least in the near term the Office has used the same questions, but in different quantities.  My exam probably had 20 verbatim questions, others have reported less.  Being able to recognize these questions should at least account for some easy points.  But be careful and still read the question, because some on my test had different words inserted which changed the answer.

2.  Understand basic multiple choice testing methodology.  I, like another poster here, also for each question wrote out A B C D E and then crossed off the letter when I eliminated an answer.  For example, if on answer is all of the above and two are right, you know what the answer is.

3.  Read 700, 2100, and 800 once and be familiar where other material is located in the MPEP.  

Good luck.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bjlbyron on 03-16-05 at 07:08 am
To the prvious poster, John:

I don't know if I can add anything that others haven't, but here's my best advice.

If I handed you a blank copy of the Oct 2003 exam right now, could you take it and answer every question correctly?  At the very least, you should be able to recognize the correct answer to every question on that exam.  Better yet, you should be able to recognize why each correct answer is correct (and why every wrong answer is wrong).  On my exam, and seemingly on the exams of many posters on this site, at least 15 questions were verbatim from the Oct 2003 exam.  If you are at all fuzzy in your knowledge of that exam, make sure you take the nest 48 hours and clear the fuzziness.  Even if you know it cold, it probably wouldn’t hurt to take another pass through it the last thing you do tomorrow night (or early Friday morning).

Other than knowing the Oct 2003 exam cold, there’s probably not much you can do in the next 48 hours to add to your preparation, and in fact, cramming too much last minute studying could do more harm than good (it can be fatiguing).  Watch a movie tomorrow night to take your mind off of the exam, taking only an hour or so to review the Oct 2003 exam if necessary.  Most important of all: don’t beat yourself up mentally by putting too much pressure on yourself.  Sure you don’t want to fail, but remember that many highly intelligent and successful people have taken that exam multiple times.  Good luck.

PS, this tip would have helped me: You can’t bring water into the exam, so make sure that you’re well-hydrated before beginning.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: David on 03-16-05 at 10:03 am
Following on the previous poster, you can't bring anything into the exam, not even cough drops that were wrapped (in my case), or pens.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: melwrc on 03-16-05 at 11:41 am
not too well-hydrated.  the 3 hr clock runs continuously whether or not you are in front of the terminal.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: done on 03-18-05 at 09:42 am
Selling PLI DVD Home Study Course if anyone is interested, visit the link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2228&item=6952152698&rd=1

Or just search for Ebay Item # 6952152698

Best of Luck
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: TakingTheExamOnApril2nd on 03-20-05 at 10:27 am
Quote
not too well-hydrated.  the 3 hr clock runs continuously whether or not you are in front of the terminal.


Last night when I was discussing how I have been preparing for the exam with my mother, she said that her most "favorite advice that she received (when studying for the CPA exam) is to make sure to get up and go to the bathroom during the exam.  Afterwards you can say that there was at least 1 moment during the exam when you knew exactly what you were doing"

I'm taking the exam in 2 weeks (from yesterday). This forum has been a very good source of information. Thank you all. It is definitely nice to hear when people have passed using the methods that I have been trying. Also, It is definitely nerve racking to hear how much some people have done.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: cdoug81 on 03-20-05 at 12:31 pm
I just finished my exam:

My suggestions are as follows:

1) read questions carefully as it is easy to miss what they want for example.  All these are in accord with ... EXCEPT
or Which is NOT etc.
2) Re-exam and Re-Issue
3) Appeal

Mostly what others have said...

Does anyone remember the question about lipbalm that changed taste after a kiss...I am not sure which way to go with that that one?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: safin on 03-20-05 at 12:46 pm
In response to TakingTheExamOnApril2, I couldn't agree with your mother more.  I went to the bathroom twice.

Just be aware, though, that the Prometrics people make you sign in and out when leaving the test room.  That might slow you down if you have to wait for others to sign off, too.  I took the test in Brooklyn and there were folks in the same room as me taking several tests other than the PTO exam.   They certainly didn't seem to be in a rush, either.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: lipbalm on 03-20-05 at 01:12 pm
I totally remember the lipbalm question ( and i took my test more than a month ago!!) It was about some girl who invented the lipbalm, and was wondering whether she could patent it, but i believe it was a public use  or 102(b) question. Don't remember which way i answered.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: melwrc on 03-20-05 at 04:24 pm
i think the deal on the lip balm was that she publicly used it by kissing people at parties for over a yr.  I think there may have been some other fact about the nature of the parties to indicate how public they are, with a red herring about her not telling people how the lip balm worked.  
I answered that it was a 102(b) bar because public use doesn't require that the claimed invention be enabled as opposed to a publication.  There was also nothing to indicate that the kissing was for experimental reasons (at least not for perfecting the invention).
Did this jog anyone's memory?  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Susanne Moore on 03-21-05 at 11:51 am
Where are y'all finding the test result list?  I see on the USPTO website where it says test results but when I click on it it only shows OLD paper test results from 2003 and previous.  
I took mine a week and 1/2 ago and just wondered where I go to look to see if I passed.  Thanks!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: cdoug81 on 03-21-05 at 12:08 pm
Look on these lists:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/names.htm

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: similar question on 03-21-05 at 03:02 pm
There was a similar question on the April 2002 AM exam.  It was question 32.

It talks about a floor tile coating.  He put it on the floor of his supermarket.  The model answer says "public use occurs even when the public is unaware that they were walking on the
developed material since the material was used in a public place."
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Susanne Moore on 03-21-05 at 04:42 pm
Quote
Look on these lists:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/names.htm



Thanks!!!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: john on 03-25-05 at 05:06 pm
thanks to everyone that offered their advice/insight on the exam.  after taking it last week, i would agree with what everyone else has said, especially with regards to paying extra attention to PCT, reexam, reissue, and appeal.  
the only thing i would add is to learn to use the "find" function in the mpep... especially if you have some time with the obscure questions, the right answer will usually be taken verbatim from the mpep.  (but don't count on using it too much, b/c it's time consuming)

one other question though: is the patent bar like most state bars where you only find out your actual score if you don't pass; otherwise they just send you a "congrats" letter?

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: andy conners on 03-28-05 at 10:35 am
How easy/ hard is it to use the look up feature. The one I got on the PLI patent law disk is pretty difficult.

Also does anyone have data on the pass rate with the new exam???
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Jonathan on 03-28-05 at 11:00 am
Quote
one other question though: is the patent bar like most state bars where you only find out your actual score if you don't pass; otherwise they just send you a "congrats" letter?

 


Correct.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: cdoug81 on 03-28-05 at 11:21 am
The OED has stated that results will be "posted sometime this week" and they would not give out any more information.  If you find out any more info...please post
Title: registration posting
Post by: crazed on 03-28-05 at 07:51 pm
confirmed!  There will be a registration posting tomorrow...
Title: Re: registration posting
Post by: cdoug81 on 03-28-05 at 07:56 pm
Quote
confirmed!  There will be a registration posting tomorrow...



Did they tell you what dates were covered?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: crazed on 03-28-05 at 08:10 pm
sorry, they would not tell me the dates that were covered...I assume from march 4 on for about a week and a half...
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: ashartzer on 03-29-05 at 07:27 am
Has anyone taken the exam at either the Fairfax, VA or Washington D.C.  Prometric Test Centers?

I'm wondering if they are different from each other in terms of the age of the computers available, the testing rooms, and whether or not they will be crowded.

Are most of you taking the exam during the week?  (I'm not sure if it is even offered on the weekends)......

thanks!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Cilantro13 on 03-29-05 at 08:40 am
I took the test in the Washington D.C. Test Center. It was ok. Not too crowded. People were nice. The computers were decent, but like other comments in this forum, a little hard on the eyes because of the low refresh rate.

All things considered, it was a pretty decent experience minus the actual test.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Crazed on 03-29-05 at 12:25 pm
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/regprac13may05.html

I PASSED
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: john on 03-29-05 at 12:38 pm
does anyone have an idea of what time period the most recent OED posting covers?

i took the test march 18th... i'm hoping that it would be just too quick a turnaround.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: CRAZED on 03-29-05 at 12:41 pm
I would call the OED.  However, I highly doubt march 18 th is on the curent list.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Cilantro13 on 03-29-05 at 12:42 pm
After posting that I was sure I didn't pass (page 17), I saw that I too am on the list. That will at least save me some of the money I planned to put towards retaking it.

There must be 5-10 gimmies on the test if I passed, which is good news for everybody. I took the test on March 9th.

Hooray!!!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: WTJalapeno on 03-29-05 at 01:27 pm
Is anyone on the list who took the test on or after March 12??  Does anyone know yet what dates this posting covers?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: ??????????? on 03-29-05 at 02:16 pm
Today's list covered dates 3/3 - 3/17
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bjlbyron on 03-29-05 at 05:45 pm
Does anyone know what the next step in the process is after an exam passee gets the "congratulations" letter and when does it occur?  I've been in the 45-day moral/character window for a couple of weeks now I haven't heard anything since getting the "congrats" letter.


Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Reissue This! on 03-29-05 at 05:54 pm
Took the test in Chicago today.  [2d try  :-/]

The exam I took matched the content of the exam that Cliantro(sp?) reported on March 9th so closely that I think we took the same test.  The USPTO must have a few different exams running concurrently.

I tried to take the exam on St. Patty's Day a couple weeks ago, but the MPEP kept crashing.  After 90 minutes I left for the bar.  (The Pub, not the Patent Bar.)

Anyway, I got a look at the first question on St. Patty's Day before I packed it in.  It was a question about how you can't file a continuation from a provisional.  The same question popped up on today's exam (3/29), but in a different part of the test.

I'd offer more details about the test, but Cilantro13(sp?) pretty much covered everything - except that I'd say there were more than a few "repeats" on the exam today.

Good luck everyone.  I guess I'll know if I have to go in for rd. 3 in a couple weeks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Festo Festival on 03-29-05 at 07:48 pm
Quote
Does anyone know what the next step in the process is after an exam passee gets the "congratulations" letter and when does it occur?  I've been in the 45-day moral/character window for a couple of weeks now I haven't heard anything since getting the "congrats" letter.




To my understanding, this is what happens: After receiving your congrats letter, you basically just sign the oath and the info form and send it in. During the 45 day window, the only communication you will receive will probably be from local recruiters sending you there business cards etc.. Supposedly, it takes about a couple weeks after your moral character "expiry" date for you to actually receive your certificate, but you can always check the website to see if you name pops up on the attorney/agent list for you official USPTO Reg Number. Not much to look forward to eh?

Congrats to all who passed. Law school just seems so much easier without that exam staring over my shoulder.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: tygt2005 on 03-30-05 at 08:52 am
Quote
Has anyone taken the exam at either the Fairfax, VA or Washington D.C.  Prometric Test Centers?
I'm wondering if they are different from each other in terms of the age of the computers available, the testing rooms, and whether or not they will be crowded.


Yesterday, I took the exam in Washington DC, and the faciliity is brand new (you can still smell the new-ness of the office space). my exam was on Tuesday and it was crowded in the morning and less so in the afternoon (80% full in the morning), which was annoying b/c this person next to me kept coughing so bring your own ear plugs or they'll give you an optional headset that is rather clunky and uncomfortable.  The people were nice and helpful.  The exam was pretty difficult; but had an hour and 15 minutes to look up stuff in the MPEP; was able to correct/find at least five answers in each session.  the mpep provides subject headings and the corresponding number which makes things much easier to search so be sure to know the subject headings; also i saw a few questions from the 2002 exam (the potter question, which i could never remember the answer, and the toothbrush question) and the 2003 exam.  Hopefully I passed. Anyhow, good luck to you...  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Waiting in agony on 04-04-05 at 01:01 pm
Does anyone know if there will be a posting this week?  They seem to be a little inconsitent....posting every two weeks, then every week?

Also, anyone know what dates will be covered if they do post this week?  I took the exam March 23rd.

Thanks
Title: Today's list
Post by: guest on 04-05-05 at 09:16 am
Does anyone know whether if the last list covered tests taken through 3/17, I took the test on 3/18, and my name is not on today's list, then I can safely assume that I didn't pass?  It seems strange that today's list only contains 5 names and they all start with letters in the first half of the alphabet, but maybe that's just how things shook out this time around.  Does anyone have any info on this?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: p@tent.guy on 04-05-05 at 09:26 am
All 5 names are of former patent examiners who had more than 5 years experience. I have a feeling that they did not have to take the patent bar. I too took the exam on March 18th and nearly had a heart attack when I first saw the list.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: waiting in agony on 04-05-05 at 10:40 am
I called OED, they said the names posted were "some" of the people who took the test after March 18th...but that it wasn't the whole list....whatever that means...
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: p@tent.guy on 04-05-05 at 01:27 pm
When I called the OED she didn't really know because she hadn't gotten a good answer from her boss. It's a safe assumption that "Godici, Nicholas P" aka. former acting commissioner of the USPTO, did not have to take the agents exam.

I would not panic yet.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: sheetal chopra on 04-06-05 at 03:31 am
Am i right to understand that if i am an Indian citizen/resident then i cant take patent bar exam? please suggest.

Thanks
sheetal
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: apr2nowwaiting on 04-06-05 at 07:09 am
I took the exam on saturday Apr 2nd. I was worried about getting there late & not being able to take the exam, so I arrived one hour early with plans to review PCT one last time (11/29/00 is stuck in my mind forever).  When I arrived they informed me that I was allowed to begin immediately, but that I was no longer allowed to bring in ear plugs.  I went in dressed in sweats, a t-shirt & a sweater but I took off the sweater after a few minutes because it was 70 degrees in the room (i live in TX).  The proctor came in and took the sweater since you aren't allowed to have anything in the room with you.  Once other people began to arrive the AC kicked on and it chilled to 60, so I got up to get the sweater.  From then on when I got hot I took my arms out of the sleeves but left the sweater around my neck, I found it amusing.  Anyway after I did a first pass & answered every question, also "marking" the ones that I wanted to look up in the MPEP, I hit the "MPEP" button. The computer crashed. I didn't panic since this list serve had forewarned me about MPEP issues & I also knew my answers were saved. The proctors spent ~15 minutes rebooting & retrying the "MPEP" button.  They gave me the choice of calling tech support or trying another computer station. I wanted for the later & the freaking button worked fine. Thank goodness I arrived an hour early since very soon afterward every computer in the place was taken & they were worried about running out of them for the rest of the people scheduled that day (during my 5 min lunch break I heard this conversation).  That is the other point I wanted to make, the lunch break is not mandatory & you can use as little of it as you want.  I had brought nutri-grain & gatorade, which was perfect since I was so nervous I wouldn't have wanted to try and keep more down during the test.
The first half went by easily, in fact I almost had a heart attack (happy) because my 1st question was an Oct 2003 just like everyone had warned. All in all I had 26 questions that I recognized verbatim from previous exams.  I had taken last friday off work & spent the time re-retaking Oct 2003, which was probably the best decision I could have made.
The 2nd half started off badly, I marked the 1st five questions for MPEP review, but then it got better. I didn't get the lip gloss question, but I did get a question about a boat owner who invented a new sea bell for his boat & gave copies to all his friends (w/out instructions).  The worst question I got was one that required me to know which person had to review a weird petition. I ended up finding that petition & searching for the titles using "find" The second search I did found the answer exactly as written in the exam.  I got that ABCD question from the 2003 exam twice, but the second time they added a new twist to the call of the question.  

Good luck to all. I hope I never have to do this again!
:-/
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 04-11-05 at 03:15 pm
Anyone have any idea when the next posting of results is going to be? I forgot to call OED today!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: ReIssue on 04-11-05 at 05:12 pm
Has any one taken the Exam in Boston?  How is the Prometric site in Boston?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Doug on 04-12-05 at 09:17 am
I don't know about the prometric site in boston, but the one in burlington is quite dandy.

So, does anyone have an idea of when the next OED posting will be?  I'm getting pretty anxious to see if I passed.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: waiting 2 pay another fee on 04-12-05 at 10:56 am
just give them a call
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: tom on 04-12-05 at 11:38 am
Quote
just give them a call


results are up.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Doug on 04-12-05 at 11:44 am
Bitchin'.  I passed.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Reissue This! on 04-12-05 at 12:28 pm
Made the list today (on my second try.)  ;)

Anyone know how long it takes to get (a) the Congrats Letter from OED after the web posting or (b) your registration No.?

I know the OED site lists 5/27 as the deadline for submitting nasty stuff about each of us, but I wonder how long after the 27th should we expect to wait to receive our registration digits?

Thanks to all who posted info/adivce on this site.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Zippy on 04-12-05 at 01:17 pm
I got my pass letter the same day that the results were posted on the OED site.  There were several people that were on the same list that I was on who had received their letter a day or two before the OED posting.  Thus, you should expect your official letter very soon.
With regard to getting the registration numbers, the consensus is that it will be two weeks or less after the waiting period.
Congrats on passing!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: relieved! on 04-12-05 at 01:20 pm
A collegue of mine had a response date of April 8, and while he hasn't recieved his letter with reg # yet, his reg # is listed on the OED lawyer search website...
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: waiting on 04-12-05 at 05:40 pm
 ???
when did you guys take the exam?  Those of you that are on the list?  Does anyone know the last date of testing the new list covers?

many thanks....
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: relieved! on 04-13-05 at 06:29 am
I took the exam March 30th and I was on the latest list...
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Reissue This! on 04-13-05 at 10:49 am
Took exam: 3/29
Made the online list: 4/12
Received pass letter from OED: 4/13
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: 2nd try on 04-14-05 at 04:57 am
Anybody on the latest list take it on April 2nd?  I'm trying to figure out when the cutoff date is...
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: berg on 04-14-05 at 03:29 pm
I'm guessing that the 4/12/2005 posting covers 3/17/2005 - 3/31/2005, and the upcoming 4/26/2005 posting will cover 3/31/2005 - 4/14/2005.

I am relying on the periods covered by the previous postings to make this guess.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: waiting... on 04-19-05 at 02:27 pm
Does anyone know when today's pass list covers?  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Jay Smith on 04-19-05 at 04:13 pm
Good question.  It was an awful short list.  I took it on 4/4 and still haven't heard anything.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: waiting... on 04-19-05 at 05:36 pm
i took the exam on 4/6 and haven't heard anything.  I called today and the lady said if i took it on 4/6 i should look at next tuesday's list.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: jag on 04-20-05 at 09:18 am
Hi

I was wondering.  Several months ago, I took a review course.  Other committments got int he way of my study time and I have now started getting back into it.

I know that the new material will be added on June 2.  I have not registered for the test yet.  I'm trying to decide whether or not to try to take the test before June or wait and get more study material for the later test and take it later in the summer.  

I realize that even if I tried to register I may not make it into this version of the test.  ANyone who has had experience with this test or the studying process have any suggestions?

Any suggestions/thoughts about the most efficient way to study would also be geatly appreciated.

Thanks
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: melwrc on 04-20-05 at 11:26 am
The key is doing old tests using ONLY the electronic mpep.  I think that quick reference books from the study programs can hurt  by providing a crutch to avoid looking things up for yourself.  I posted about my test after I took it.  I hope it helps.

http://www.intelproplaw.com/Forum/Forum.cgi?board=patent_agents;action=display;num=1109399941

As for the new test, it won't affect the study material significantly, although I'm sure you will see ads from each program saying how they have updated.  Just like my PLI course with materials talking about what to bring in the test with you...yep, it was updated for electronic testing.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Chicken_dude on 04-20-05 at 07:54 pm

Is the MPEP rev 1 used on the test currently?

I know they are changing to rev 2 on June 2, but I assume that means they are using r1 now?

Andrew
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: yosar on 04-22-05 at 03:55 pm
Question about use of MPEP “Find” function to search the MPEP by chapter.  Would appreciate advice from those who have taken the exam how best to use the Find function.  Is the text entered with quotes or without quotes?  Are Boolean operators permitted [AND/OR]?  Is it best to start with the full MPEP Index search then to conduct a chapter search?  Any recommendations about how to create the text search string? Thank you for your guidance.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 04-24-05 at 01:19 pm
Open a pdf file in Acrobat Reader and try find/search functionality. I don't think AND/OR type of search is supported.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 04-24-05 at 01:20 pm
Quote
Is the MPEP rev 1 used on the test currently?

I know they are changing to rev 2 on June 2, but I assume that means they are using r1 now?

Andrew


Rev. 1 until 2nd June.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: rocker81 on 04-24-05 at 03:37 pm
Quote
Question about use of MPEP “Find” function to search the MPEP by chapter.  Would appreciate advice from those who have taken the exam how best to use the Find function.  Is the text entered with quotes or without quotes?  Are Boolean operators permitted [AND/OR]?  Is it best to start with the full MPEP Index search then to conduct a chapter search?  Any recommendations about how to create the text search string? Thank you for your guidance.


I took it last thursday and I found that I had a bunch of time to look things up.  The Oct 03 exam seemed to find its way into a good 20 questions of the test, so if you had the old tests (especially that one down) you could save some time on the test.  What I found worked best was taking the topic of the question, looking it up in the index, going to the chapter and then using the search button.  I started out very specific with the search button by using direct quotes from the answer choices and then getting broader and broader if I couldnt find anything.  A good amount of the questions had answer choices taken word for word from the MPEP.  

On a sidenote, they really bombarded me with PCT questions in the afternoon.  The morning session was the easiest that I have taken to date, but the afternoon session left me wondering about my results.

Maybe I have a future in personal injury ::)
Title: PLI vs. BarBri vs. Keyton
Post by: Linh Le on 04-25-05 at 05:52 am
I took a PLI course back in 2002 but was not able to take the exam at that time.  I still have all my study materials from that time.  Since the test has changed to computer, is it worth it to take the course again? or should I just review old tapes and do practice q's?

Any thoughts on PLI vs the other companies like BarBri or Keyton?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts/comments.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: david on 04-25-05 at 11:19 am
I am interested in whether others can comment on the timing of receiving their P-Number after being notified of passing and submitting appropriate materials in return.  Is a number issued to you on or about the date associated with the list on which you are listed as passing (e.g. mine is April 29,2005, and I was notified mid-March of passing)?

To the rest of you, good luck.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: melwrc on 04-25-05 at 11:42 am
There are no provisional reg numbers anymore.  You should show up in the agent/atty database the day of or soon after the date on the pass list, which corresponds with 6 wks of being in the PTO gazette after passing.
I've been told that the certificate is taking about 2 wks from that date.  I'm also on the April 29th list, so I'll find out soon enough.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: ReIssue on 04-26-05 at 08:13 am
A number of the posts here have indicated that a large number of PCT questions have been used in the Exam.  Could you please provide some guidance as to the nature of these questions.  For example, are these directed to PCT's in the context of 102(e), or are the questions directed to procedural matters (Chapter I vs Chapter II, Request, Demand, etc..

Also, for those who've taken the exam recently, have Patent Term Adjustment, Inter Partes ReExam, and Correction of Patents  been tested?

Thanks a lot.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Berg on 04-26-05 at 08:32 am
I had about 6 PCT questions in the afternoon session, and they almost exclusively dealt with filing requirements at the different stages of the PCT process.  You should know exactly what is due on both the international filing date and the commencement of the national stage.  Know what is required for a filing date, what can be late, what to do if certain papers are not sent from the IB in time, and all the consequences of not complying in time.

I had no questions dealing with inter partes reexamination, or patent term extensions, however, a number of people in this forum have reported such questions, so they do exist in the test bank, but probably not in very high numbers (or I just got very lucky).

There were a fair number of correction questions.  Mostly dealing with reissue.

FYI:  no less than 10 out of the 50 afternoon questions relate to appeal.  Specifically, reopening prosecution after appeal.  Fortunately, most of the questions were word-for-word out of the MPEP, but I recommend knowing MPEP 1200 inside and out - it will save you time if you are familiar with it.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Bibi on 04-26-05 at 11:45 am
Took the test yesterday. I studied the Kayton (old material) and then practiced all the tests from upstartraising.com. I would say about 50 were Qs I have seen before. Second half was easier than the first. Yes, the user pass Qs was there. So thanks to this message board. Overall, the exam was harder than what I practiced ( I expected it). I was scoring about 82-85 in the practice tests, so I hope I pass.

As for content: about 10 from PCT (4 were from past exams), other 4 could be easily looked up, 2 I don't find in MPEP in the time I had. Also has lots of reexam, tons of appeals, a few on 102/103.

When can I expect to have a reply from USPTO. IS the turnaround time about 2 weeks now?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: john on 04-26-05 at 02:37 pm
quick question for those that have already passed...

along w/the data sheet, the oed sent out an oath/affirmation... they say to sign it and send it back, but there's also a spot on the bottom to have it notarized.  is that necessary, or can i just sign it and leave it at that?

(why do i get the feeling that this is oddly like those questions on the differences between oaths/declarations?)
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: kristin on 04-26-05 at 02:40 pm
Any guesses on why there was no list of those who have passed today?  I can't figure out a pattern with these people!!!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Witness Protect Pgm :) on 04-26-05 at 03:28 pm
Quick question for those who've found their names on the
pass list (congrats! ;D):

Does the OED post your full legal name (ie: first name, full middle name, last name) from line 1a of the application
or
do they post your name as it appears on your govt. ID (ie:
first name, middle initial, last name) from line 1b of the application

Just curious......
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Reissue This! on 04-26-05 at 05:17 pm
Quote

Also, for those who've taken the exam recently, have Patent Term Adjustment, Inter Partes ReExam, and Correction of Patents  been tested?

Thanks a lot.


Inter Partes Reexams weren't on my test (3/29), except for one question based directly on the statute. (s 311, I think). That question concerned the required stuff you have to send in for third-party submissions, ex parte reexams, and inter partes reexams.  There was one simple PTA question, and mabye a couple-three questions about corrections of patents that weren't just reissue questions.

I think OED is sorta limited as to what they can test on some of these sections, because they're not included in the MPEP 8th ed. (rev. 1).  Although Inter Partes Reexams are in rev. 2, they're not included, if I'm not mistaken, in previous versions of the MPEP.  Since the whole section on Inter Partes Reexams isn't in the version of the MPEP that OED is using right now, there aren't many questions about them.

OED might begin laying on a lot of Inter Partes questions - among other things - on/after 6/2, when they switch to rev. 2. So if you're in your "testing window" right now it might be a good idea to take the thing sooner than later.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: no-reexam on 04-26-05 at 07:47 pm
I have a question. I was scared when I saw lots of past posts saying they were scoring 80% plus on the old exams because I only got around 60-70% on the FIRST try. After I studied the answers, I could get about 90-95% correct.

For those who scored 80% plus on the old exams, was it for the VERY FIRST TRY or after studying answers, you can get 80% plus?

I really like to know how well I am prepared. I am going to take the exam on 5/9. I did not read any prep materials. I took patent law course last year (which mainly covers ch. 2100, I think) and read some chapters in MPEP. Thanks a lot.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: apr2passed on 04-27-05 at 08:31 am
Quote
I have a question. I was scared when I saw lots of past posts saying they were scoring 80% plus on the old exams because I only got around 60-70% on the FIRST try. After I studied the answers, I could get about 90-95% correct.
.


I know exactly how you feel, those people freaked me out as well. I scored between 50-80 on my first try on the previous exams (averaged ~68) but the day before the exam I got >95% on them.  I was so worried because of how much work some of the people on the have done to pass plus the claims of initial scores on the old exams. I passed!

Congratulations to all those who just found out they passed.

I took the PLI course with John & Eugene & I thought they did a great job.

!!!Important warning, if a posting is scheduled for the 26th, you should not expect to see it until the 27th. !!!

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: safin on 04-27-05 at 09:30 am
"Persons Seeking Registration to Practice in Patent Cases:"

4/27 posting is up.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: fingers crossed on 04-27-05 at 01:59 pm
does anyone know what dates the latest posting covers?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Appleton on 05-01-05 at 07:09 am
It covers at least - 4/14...I see a friend's name on that list who took the exam then.  Most likely they break the month up into two large lists: the 1st-15th and the 16th-end of the month.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Appleton on 05-02-05 at 10:03 am
I took the exam on Saturday.

AM session was a breeze; I marked around 10-12 questions (but still answered them as best I could) in my first pass.  I got through all 50 questions in my first pass in about an hour and a half.  I went back to the marked questions and looked each one up in the MPEP in the next 30 minutes.  I had 1 full hour to go through each of the 50 questions again quickly at the end to make sure I didn't misread something.  I doubt I got more than 5 wrong on the AM session.

PM session was much harder.  A lot of PCT/102e questions (there were also a few on the AM session) and a lot less repeats from old exams.  A couple of 102e dates they asked for did not exist (publication only had 102a date), so I picked "e) none of the above" in two questions.   The PM session was also heavily focused on reexams and appeal, whereas the AM session was more straightforward.

I think I had one bogus question on the use of product by process claims.  I spent a good 15 minutes looking up each answer choice and eliminated them one by one.  There was no correct answer, so I am not sure what answer they wanted.  It was about when the use of prodcut by process is appropriate. One incorrect answer was an obvious misquote from the MPEP, although it was still true.

All in all, I saw aproximately 30% repeats (or close repeats).  I guess I got < 5 wrong in AM and < 10-15 wrong in PM.  All in all, its not too bad if you know your shit.  

Background: I have been working at an IP firm now for 10 months, but have no previous legal experience.  I am enrolling in law school this fall.  I have been studying at night after work for about 4 months, 1-2 hours each night.  No review course, straight MPEP.

Good luck!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: john on 05-02-05 at 03:49 pm
I'm on the pass list that ended April 29, 2005.   How long does it take to get a registration number, provided nobody complained about me?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: melwrc on 05-03-05 at 08:40 am
If you go to "find an agent/atty," you will see on the right where it says when the database data was last extracted.  Right now it shows April 29, so you won't be in that (nor will I).  We should have reg#'s in the database this Friday and certificates next week.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: David on 05-03-05 at 12:06 pm
If you cannot wait, you can call OED, who will confirm whether your registration has been approved.  They cannot provide your registration number.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Bibi on 05-03-05 at 05:23 pm
If it's taking about 2weeks for the results of the exam, I should have mine next week. Do I check 'Persons Seeking Registration to Practice in Patent Cases'? or some other place?
Thanks
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Kevin Prince on 05-04-05 at 09:41 pm
For those who are waiting for your results: If you don't want to have to keep checking the OED page for new lists of those who pass, you can have http://www.changedetection.com do it for you; a nifty service with which I'm not affiliated, but I use it all the time to actively search for changes.  It's free.

I just took the test in Anaheim, and after they spent two hours trying to "download another test" because the recent upgrade kept kicking me out, I felt okay about it.  Thanks to all who've posted here!  Really, studing the Oct. 2003 exam is good for 15 free points.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: No Number Yet on 05-05-05 at 11:41 am
Well the OED says they extracted new data today for registered agents/attorneys.  I was on the April 29th pass list, and I didn't find my name in the database.

I searched for some of the other names on the Apr 29th list, and they weren't there either.  Looks like we have to wait another week.

The people on the April 21st list were registered, but they were registered on the previous extraction, too.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wick on 05-07-05 at 03:39 pm
I took the exam today.

My experience was very similar to some of the recent posts.

The morning session seemd to be relatively easy. There were a LOT of repeats from the 2003 exams. The rest of the questions were for the most part very straightforward. I had nearly an hour at the end to review throught the marked questions, and felt very confident about the test at that point.

The afternoon section was a completely different story. I recognized very few of the questions. I found myself scrambling through the MPEP to dig up obscure or unclear information. It was this way throughout most of the session. There were a bunch of questions with subject matter concerning appeals, PCT, Reexamination, 102(e), section 2100, a couple on duty of disclosure, a couple on restriction, a CIP of a Design App and a Protest question. I only had a few minutes  at the end to review before the clock cut me off. All in all, it was much harder.

A thorough understanding of sections 1200, 1800, 2100, and 2200 will greatly benefit anyone going in. Also, take a look at some of the less tested sections. And become very familiar with the search function (practice with Acrobat 5.0). The less time searching for information the better.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: R Campbell on 05-09-05 at 07:30 am
I first want to thank everyone for conveying all of this information that has been very helpful to me in my preparation for this exam.  I had a question I was hoping someone would be willing to answer.  I have noticed many of you stating that the questions from the 2003 exam were prevalent throughout the new exam.   Can anyone tell me if they recall questions from exams other than the 2003 exams?    Thanks!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Appleton on 05-09-05 at 11:04 am
I believe *almost* all of the repeat questions were from one of the 2003 exams.  That doesn't mean that the questions weren't repeats from ealier exams as well though.

I would go through all of the exams from 2000 or so if you want to be really prepared.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: no-reexam on 05-09-05 at 04:36 pm
Took the test today.

morning session was harder than the afternoon one.

lots of Qs in the morning session from less tested areas.

the afternoon session had lots of Qs from appeal, PCT, reissue.

some Qs were asking:
-- what is the effective date for printed publication (give you a lot of dates)

-- what you have to diclose (duty to disclose)

--what to do if applicant requested rehearing and submitted amendment after board decidion.

overall, the test is hard.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 05-09-05 at 08:56 pm
Took the test this morning. Thanks to people who shared their experience , I think I did good in the exam. There were many queations from the list of questions mentioned by melwrc on 25th feb in his messege on this board (thanks buddy).

Same experience here, first half was little easier than second. Second was full of appeal, PCT, reexam, patentability (specially obviousness). (all the PCT questions in my exam had IA filing date before nov 29, 2000 - what a crap). First half had lots of questions on restriction, 102 (there was one question - don't remember exactly... something about application of 1.131 in 102(g) situation...), duty of disclosure, protest, CIP of design app- 102(d) . Lots of repeats from 2003 exams (one question  ABCD changed to ABCDE in reissue and then to BCDE was repeated with minor change in both AM and PM ... one exactly repeat from 2003, in other - broadening was filed after two year but intent to broaden was filed within 2 years - I chose same answer in both). In general, most questions were not straight forward (specially PCT and apeal questions). Difficult to answer unless MPEP is read thoroughly.

many questions related to ADS before/after NOA-Issue fee paid/not paid - RCE - amendments after NOA/Issue fee....

Another question I remember: App takes priority to previously filed non-provisional app. After NOA, to save patent term amendment was filed in RCE to remove priority claim. Got 102(b) rejection. filed RCE again to add same priority claim.  What result?  I never came across any such scenario during my preparation. I simply applied 4/16 months rule and came to conclusion that the priority may not be claimed without petition and payment of fee for late entry. Don't know if this is correct answer.

One note for people who are praparing for this exam and solely relying on bar review courses (specially older review courses ) -  type of questions being asked in current exams cannot be answered untill you read MPEP in details. Many many questions now come from chapters on which review courses do not focus much.  I threw away my review course a month ago.

Also watch out for old exam questions - law has changed... specially 102(e), RCE/CPA etc.  Don't forget to memorize questions and answers from 2003 exam - easy 10-20 points and huge time saving. Memorize what is where in MPEP so that you can search in the right chapter during exam.  

good luck.



Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 05-10-05 at 06:38 am
Quote

 First half had lots of questions on restriction, 102 (remember 1.131 can be used for 102(a) and (g) both - there a question on this)



Is this true about overcoming a 102(g) rejection with a 1.131 affidavit?  

According to MPEP 715:

SITUATIONS WHERE 37 CFR 1.131 AFFIDAVITS OR DECLARATIONS ARE INAPPROPRIATE

(I) Where the subject matter relied on in the reference is prior art under 35 U.S.C. 102(g). 37 CFR 1.131 is designed to permit an applicant to overcome rejections based on references or activities which are not statutory bars, but which have dates prior to the effective filing date of the application but subsequent to the applicant’s actual date of invention. However, when the subject matter relied on is also available under 35 U.S.C. 102(g), a 37 CFR 1.131 affidavit or declaration cannot be used to overcome it.


Anyone else have an opinion on using a 1.131 affidavit to overcome a 102(g) rejection?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: SW2 on 05-10-05 at 07:22 am
The registration numbers of people on the Apr.29 list is out.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Chairman Mao on 05-10-05 at 07:38 am
How do I access that list?  Thanks
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bjlbyron on 05-10-05 at 07:41 am
SW2,

What exactly do you mean that the reg numbers are "out"?  Did you get yours in the mail?  No one from the Apr 29th list appears yet in the database.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: SW2 on 05-10-05 at 08:23 am
If you use advanced search function on the OED database you will see the new names. The old fashioned search didn't come up with those names.

No, I haven't received letter from OED.

SW  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: rocker81 on 05-10-05 at 08:25 am
Quote
What exactly do you mean that the reg numbers are "out"?  Did you get yours in the mail?  No one from the Apr 29th list appears yet in the database.


Yes I am wondering the same thing.  I expect the list to be out today, but nothing is on the website
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Bibi on 05-10-05 at 11:09 am
I appeared in the exam on Apr 25th. Isn't it about time to get the results? Does the list appear on Tuesdays? Anyone appearing around that time received their results yet?
Thanks
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Bibi on 05-10-05 at 11:19 am
I called them up now. They said the results for those around apr25 are out and it should be on the website. I don't see any new list. are they not published yet. She also mentioned that the letters are mailed out the same day (yesterday). Hope I pass.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Reg Numba on 05-10-05 at 11:26 am
I am from the April 29th list of exam passers.  I did the Advanced Search, and I have my registration # listed.

It said:

"Data extracted on Tue May 10 14:18:33 EDT 2005"

In other words, my name was added about 10 minutes ago.

Some of the other people from my list are not in the agent database yet.  I think the PTO is entering the data as we speak.  

If you are on the Apr 29 list, maybe check back later and your name might be in the database.

Also, my name is not in the standard search.  It's only in the Advanced.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Bibi on 05-10-05 at 11:29 am
reg Numba:
when did you appear for the exam?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Reg Numba on 05-10-05 at 11:29 am
Oops.  I guess the data extracted date is the date of your search.  Their clock is just off by a few minutes.

I still think they are entering the data as we speak, though.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Reg Numba on 05-10-05 at 11:32 am
I took the exam on March 2, and on March 15th, I saw my name on the April 29th list.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Reg Numba on 05-10-05 at 11:40 am
It looks like they are working their way alphabetically backwards through the list and they are roughly halfway done.

If your last name is K-Z, you should have your number in the Advanced Search.

This is a guess by the way, but I searched for a few of the names K-Z.  They were there. A-J weren't yet.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Chairman Mao on 05-10-05 at 11:57 am
Here's today's pass list.  I don't see a link up for it on the PTO website yet but enter this and you shall see: http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/regprac24jun05.htm
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Bibi on 05-10-05 at 12:10 pm
Thanks to all. I passed :D
What  a relief!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: PL on 05-10-05 at 12:27 pm
Another thank-you to this board.  Great advice here, and I passed on the first try!

I'm selling my Patbar.com materials cheap, over at:

http://www.intelproplaw.com/Forum/Forum.cgi?board=patent_agents;action=display;num=1110129881;start=0#8

(or you can email me at petcl1@aol.com)

Good luck to all!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Appleton on 05-10-05 at 01:37 pm
Today's passing list only covers from 4/15 - 4/28.  I was a little nervous because I took the exam on the 4/30 and am not on the list, so I called OED ;)
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: melwrc on 05-10-05 at 02:51 pm
krizek and libby from april 29 have reg #'s, but leman (me) is missing in the database...that's just great.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Chairman Mao on 05-10-05 at 03:51 pm
It appears that I too have passed.  What happens now?  Do I have to do anything?  More papers to fill out?  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bjlbyron on 05-10-05 at 04:09 pm
Melwrc,

I'd bet anything that your number is 56864.  Krizek's number is 56863 and Libby's (that's me) is 56865 (a palindrome!).  When I typed 56864 in the database, I got a "no records found" message.  Since they assign the numbers in alphabetical order, I'd bet that they assigned you "56864" but just didn't enter it in the database for whatever reason.  Your advice on this board helped me pass the exam; it's a shame that you have to go through this minor aggravation.  Good luck.    

Brian
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: leitztozeiss on 05-10-05 at 08:13 pm
Took the exam today.  My experience was like many of the previous posters . . . finished the AM section with 90 minutes to spare, then had JUST enough time to finish the PM section.  To be clear, there were about 10-15 questions in the PM section that really forced me to dig deep into the MPEP for some kind of answer - these questions consumed way too much time.  A previous poster, "Appleton" spoke of a seemingly bogus question regarding product by process claims - I had the same question.  The answer that I narrowed down to was something along the lines of a product by process claim being appropriate where the product cannot be described by a conventional claim.  I don't know - it did not seem right, but I was able to knock out the other answers by quotes from the MPEP.  Just like Appleton, I must have spent about 10-15 minutes on that one question.  I really don't think any of the answers in that question were right.

Future test takers should be very deliberate in reading answers that *appear* to be quotes from the MPEP.  I found at least 3 instances where the answer was a long word for word quote of a case holding, but differing by one or two words toward the end of the quote.  Someone working quickly would likely fall into the trap of reading the first couple of lines and assuming that they had found the right answer.  I'm a bit fuzzy on detail right now, but in one example it was a 3-4 line quote and the end of the answer used "anticipation" whereas the holding in the MPEP used "obviousness."

Seemed like an unusually high number of question relating to assignments, representation.  There were several on protests.

Again, like the others, I recognized about 20-25 questions from October 03 - definitely spend time on oct 03 questions.  Lots of PCT, several questions relating to priority claims in PCT, several variations on 102(e).  Oh, also, there was one question from Oct 03 (I'll update later on the details) that seemed to be repeated in the exam - it wasn't.  The first three lines of the question were the same, but the last couple of lines of the question were clearly different.  And, the answers were the same.  So, again, one working too quickly would fall into the trap of reading the first few lines of the question, recognizing it as like one from Oct 03, and immediately apply the correct answer from Oct 03.  Be on the lookout for a question that appears to be asked twice - read closely and you'll find that they are in fact different questions.

While taking practice exams, future takers should definitely practice using an electronic PDF version of the MPEP - get used to flipping between the various sections, the index, performing simple searches (no AND/OR/NOT terms).

Lastly, if you have multiple Prometric centers in your area, pick the one with newer equipment.  There were several in my area and I picked one with what appeared to be the newest hardware.  I had no computer problems at all and the applications ran smoothly - no delays or freezes.

Now the wait.  Two weeks right?  At least it's not the six month wait like the state bar.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Appleton on 05-10-05 at 08:59 pm
Ya,

the "obviousness/anticipation" misquote was the product by process question as well.  One of the answers stated that a case for *anticipation* is easier when product by process claims are used as compared to traditional claims.  The MPEP clearly has a quotation from a federal circuit case that says *obviousness* is easier to show when using product by process claims.  But, then on the next page, it makes reference to another case where both anticipation and obviousness are easier to prove in product by process claims because only the product (and not the process) is examined for anticipation/obviousness.  So, I picked that answer, even though it was an obvious misquote  from the MPEP.  Your answer said product by process claims can ONLY be used when traditional claiming techniques are inappropriate.  I thought that was a gross overstatement, so I didn't take it.  The remaining answers were far off.

I think the other question you are referring to had to due with broadening reissue.  If she files at least one broadening claim exactly on the 2 year anniversary what happens.  One of the questions was identical to a 2003 exam question.  The other questions said that the something was delivered by some other method (hand delivered or something) and it was after the 2 year anniversary.  THe answer choices were identical, so if you weren't paying attention (or rushing) you could have easily missed that one.

Another question I remember that was tricky if you were rushing was about revival.  Don't be fooled: you CANNOT revive an application if the delay is not unintentional/unavoidable.  There was one question with a clear fact pactern like the inventor wants to wait to pay the issue fee to see if the invention makes money.  Answer should be "in no case can the application be revived."  Holding off to pay the issue fee until after the 3 months for marketing is not a permissable delay.  Thats all I remember right now.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 05-10-05 at 09:12 pm
I just found that I made a mistake in one of the repeat question from 2003. Regarding aroma therapy patent... non-elected/withdrawn claims and reissue. I recognized the question immediately and a voice from back of mind ask me to select (E) file reissue immediately broadening the claims along with previously non-elected/withdrawn claims. Wrong answer. Reason - i did not bother to apply my mind because this voice from my mind said "i remember the answer correctly, don't waste the time reading it".  "file immediately"...  answer with such words in it ... could never be a correct answer... unblemished stupidity.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Appleton on 05-10-05 at 09:20 pm
Here's what I read after I read the anticipation/obviousness nmisquote:

"[T]he lack of physical description in a product-by-process claim makes determination of the patentability of the claim more difficult, since in spite of the fact that the claim may recite only process limitations, it is the patentability of the product claimed and not of the recited process steps which must be established. We are therefore of the opinion that when the prior art discloses a product which reasonably appears to be either identical with or only slightly different than a product claimed in a product-by-process claim, a rejection based alternatively on either section 102 or section 103 of the statute is eminently fair and acceptable. As a practical matter, the Patent Office is not equipped to manufacture products by the myriad of processes put before it and then obtain prior art products and make physical comparisons therewith." In re Brown, 459 F.2d 531, 535, 173 USPQ 685, 688 (CCPA 1972).

So, frim this is looks like anticipation and obviousness are both easier to show when you use a product by process claim.  However, I am starting to think your answer was right.  A direct misquote from the MPEP is never right.  The other choices were like product by process can only be used in chemical cases (wring) and you should use product by process when only the process is novel (wrong).  So by process of elimination your product by process should ONLY be used when traditional claiming techniques are inappropriate is correct (although I feel still wrong, although the best answer).  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 05-10-05 at 09:55 pm
Perhaps it was 'diligence' not 1.131 . don't remember exactly.


Quote

Is this true about overcoming a 102(g) rejection with a 1.131 affidavit?  

According to MPEP 715:

SITUATIONS WHERE 37 CFR 1.131 AFFIDAVITS OR DECLARATIONS ARE INAPPROPRIATE

(I) Where the subject matter relied on in the reference is prior art under 35 U.S.C. 102(g). 37 CFR 1.131 is designed to permit an applicant to overcome rejections based on references or activities which are not statutory bars, but which have dates prior to the effective filing date of the application but subsequent to the applicant’s actual date of invention. However, when the subject matter relied on is also available under 35 U.S.C. 102(g), a 37 CFR 1.131 affidavit or declaration cannot be used to overcome it.


Anyone else have an opinion on using a 1.131 affidavit to overcome a 102(g) rejection?

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Johnny Wink on 05-11-05 at 07:19 am
Couple Questions:

1. a poster stated a Q where attorney goes on vacation and misses filing for an interference after the 1yr.  Where is the answer to this, I have looked in the MPEP and cannot find.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 05-11-05 at 07:24 am
Quote
Couple Questions:

1. a poster stated a Q where attorney goes on vacation and misses filing for an interference after the 1yr.  Where is the answer to this, I have looked in the MPEP and cannot find.



Nothing can be done now. See USC 135(b) and MPEP 2309(C).
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Johnny Wink on 05-11-05 at 08:00 am
Clearing up some issues;

1.  According to the PCT "request" phase, did it use to be that if you did not file a demand you had to have your requirements for the national phase in 20 months, now, as amended, it is 30 months?    If so, I wonder what happens for those 10 months in which did not file a demand at 19 months, but dont need to meet National phase until 30.     If you file a demand, obviously, you get a search by the IPEA.   Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: ReIssue This! on 05-11-05 at 10:37 am
Quote
Melwrc,

I'd bet anything that your number is 56864.  Krizek's number is 56863 and Libby's (that's me) is 56865 (a palindrome!).  When I typed 56864 in the database, I got a "no records found" message.  Since they assign the numbers in alphabetical order, I'd bet that they assigned you "56864" but just didn't enter it in the database for whatever reason.  Your advice on this board helped me pass the exam; it's a shame that you have to go through this minor aggravation.  Good luck.    

Brian


Not so quick with the Reg. #'s.  Can you tell me why "Lilly, Kenneth" of Lebanon, OH is Reg. No. 56816?  This name is also posted in the regular (not advanced) database.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Stan Willingly on 05-11-05 at 10:38 am
I am much like JOHN WATTS, except I have took all the previous practice exams and did not use the MPEP once and never scored under a 97.   I took the exam today, and I do not think I passed.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 05-11-05 at 11:11 am
Quote
I am much like JOHN WATTS, except I have took all the previous practice exams and did not use the MPEP once and never scored under a 97.   I took the exam today, and I do not think I passed.


current form of exam is much different than before. Questions used to be straight forward.  Now, Obscure parts of MPEP are being focused more and more. ...
Moreover, USPTO is presenting questions which look like "repeat" from old papers but they are not (trap).
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: ReIssue on 05-11-05 at 11:28 am
Thanks to all you who post your experiences regarding the Exam on this forum.  It has been enormously helpful.  

Could you please indicate what kinds of questions are being asked with respect to Restriction Practice?  

Also is Patent Term Adjustment or Interference Practice being tested at all?

Thank you.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: melwrc on 05-11-05 at 02:17 pm
Quote

Not so quick with the Reg. #'s.  Can you tell me why "Lilly, Kenneth" of Lebanon, OH is Reg. No. 56816?  This name is also posted in the regular (not advanced) database.


I don't know what my number is, but it is not 56864.  OED told me that my certificate was mailed out yesterday.  Like everyone else has said, they don't give you your number over the phone.  I was told that 56864 was NOT my number after asking if it was.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bjlbyron on 05-11-05 at 02:22 pm

Ugh!  Their system for issuing reg numbers is more complex than patent law itself!  I'm glad I didn't "bet anything" on 56864.



Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Cheryl J on 05-12-05 at 06:49 am
Question to those who have passed and gotten their agent/attorney numbers...

I took the test March 17th and was on the 13May2005 (posted 29MAR2005) list.  I have not as of today recieved any verification that I will become an agent tomorrow (other than my credit card was charged the 100 dollar processing fee).

Will my name show up with a number tomorrow?  When did everyone else get their numbers?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: melwrc on 05-12-05 at 07:36 am
Start looking for your reg # under "advanced search" about a week after the date of your list.  As with all things PTO, you never know exactly.  It also varies from person to person on the list for no apparent reason.  Most everybody else on the April 29th list shows up in the advanced search, but for some reason I don't, even though I was told by the OED that my processing was completed on Tuesday.    
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: John Willingly on 05-12-05 at 09:27 am
Question:   if you want to claim priority to an earlier filed application, you must do it within 4 months of the filing date or 16 months from the prior application you are claiming priority to, if AFTER these time periods is there any way to get priority again?????

      a. Reissue?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 05-12-05 at 10:37 am
Quote
Question:   if you want to claim priority to an earlier filed application, you must do it within 4 months of the filing date or 16 months from the prior application you are claiming priority to, if AFTER these time periods is there any way to get priority again?????

       a. Reissue?



Can be done later by paying hefty fee.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: fingers crossed on 05-16-05 at 07:50 am
Many thanks to all the people who posted their experiences; this forum was very helpful in my preparation for the exam.  Another site I found extremely useful is http://www.upstartraising.com/patentbar/index.html.  This program (which is free to use) has all the same functions as the actual exam.  When using the program, I recommend saving the MPEP chapters individually onto your hard drive and having them open in another window rather than using the MPEP button. The MPEP button in the program is just a hyperlink to the USPTO website.  Also, make sure you use Adobe 5.0 during your practice exams since that is the version used on the test.  Lastly, I recommend reading MPEP revision 2, but practicing using revision 1.  Many questions are easily answered if you studied rev. 2, but are very difficult to look up in rev. 1, (for example inter-partes reexam).  Good luck to future test takers, it is passable with enough studying, I put in approximately 200 hours and passed on the first try.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: leitztozeiss on 05-17-05 at 12:22 pm
Did anyone else here take the exam on May 10?  Based on previous posts, it seems that I should expect results sometime next week.  I've been checking here for updates:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/names.htm

Is that the right place to look for latest results?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 05-17-05 at 12:42 pm
I took the exam on 9th May. Hopefully, the next list (which is due anyday now) should cover my exam date. I called OED, talked to 2 live persons. Both had no idea. They gave me 4-6 weeks crap.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wick on 05-17-05 at 12:53 pm
The new OED list was just updated. There are very few names on it and most of them are for addresses in and around D.C.  I'm assuming that the names are of people who have worked for the USPTO. I took the exam on the 7th of May, and am still holding my breath. I can't believe they are still telling people the 4-6 week crap for results from a COMPUTER exam.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Appleton on 05-17-05 at 01:14 pm
Ya, you should be on the next list (with me hopefully).  The previous list only covered through May 28.  This new list looks like it is admission on waiver.  

I took the exam on May 30th and haven't heard anything yet.  Next Tuesday should be the day of truth ;)

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Appleton on 05-17-05 at 01:16 pm
switch all those May dates with April.  I took the exam on April 30, and still no word.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: melwrc on 05-18-05 at 09:46 am
Quote

I don't know what my number is, but it is not 56864.  OED told me that my certificate was mailed out yesterday.  Like everyone else has said, they don't give you your number over the phone.  I was told that 56864 was NOT my number after asking if it was.


Apparently, if you guess the right number on the phone, OED will lie to you and tell that it is wrong.  I received my certificate (I'm still not in the database), and my reg number is right in between Krizek and Libby at 56,864.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 05-19-05 at 10:45 am
Folks who have already taken the test keep stressing the need to focus on PCT as it relates to 102(e) prior art dates, and how difficult this is. Question - aren't the flowcharts in 706.02(f)(1) adequate for answering anything PCT/102(e)-related that comes your way?

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 05-19-05 at 10:55 am
PCT/102(e) is just one category. PCT has lot more than this. If you read 1800 thoroughly, you should be OK.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 05-19-05 at 04:10 pm
OED is full of overpaid, underworked and inefficient people. 4-5 weeks to press the botton so that the computer can print pass/fail letters..... other than pressing this button, everything else is finished by the computer moments after the applicant hit the submit button at the finish of exam. If they outsource the whole process to a private company, I am pretty sure you will get this letter the very next day (or email same day).
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wick on 05-19-05 at 06:16 pm
It seemed like the OED had the turnaround time on the exam results down to around 2 weeks. Guess they ran out of steam. Maybe they consider the long and uncertain test wait to be some sort of hazing process. They make the promise of instant results, which never seems to materialize, and then they sit back chuckle.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Phaseflip on 05-22-05 at 06:10 am
I am selling on e-bay my PLI patent bar materials Item number: 6961883906   (reserve is $400) it includes:

This is the Written Materials and Patware Software from the PLI Patent Bar Review Course.  It includes the entire:

    1) Key Word Glossary  (pre course)

    2)Exam Focus Study Guide--all the notes, plus the PLI questions and simulated tests.

    3) Post Course package

    4) Prime Questions Guide

    5) ClaimsLight Guide

    6) Manual of Patent Examining Procedure (MPEP)  --    1000+pages   (Edition 8, Revision 2)

    7) Patware Exam Preparation Software --Version 8.1  (simulates the actual test with both past exam and their own questions) --License on it is good through 12/31/05 though you are supposed to be able to extend that if you go past that time.

    I also have a CD containing the past exams from 1998 through to the last paper one in 2003 with the answers and the PLI comments on each of the answers which I will send with this.  

I bought these directly from PLI (like $1500--the patware software alone is like $495 from them) and used these materials exclusively and passed on the first try last month.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 05-22-05 at 10:12 am
Spam the boards ... nice. There is a "Buy/Sell" group so we don't all get your spam here.

Admin should remove this.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Phaseflip on 05-22-05 at 11:12 am
Whoa there.  I've been looking at this board for about 6 months and I never knew there was a buy/sell board--judging from the number of posts there, not many others do either--seems like this is about the only board that anyone really posts to here.  I wish that someone had posted on this board a few months ago and saved me from having to go direct to PLI.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 05-22-05 at 11:34 am
Quote
Whoa there.  I've been looking at this board for about 6 months and I never knew there was a buy/sell board--judging from the number of posts there, not many others do either--seems like this is about the only board that anyone really posts to here.  I wish that someone had posted on this board a few months ago and saved me from having to go direct to PLI.


That's your reply? Damn. You should apologize and not make excuses. I get enough spam i don't need more. Scroll down to see the buy/sell forum.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Phaseflip on 05-22-05 at 12:06 pm
Quote
Folks who have already taken the test keep stressing the need to focus on PCT as it relates to 102(e) prior art dates, and how difficult this is. Question - aren't the flowcharts in 706.02(f)(1) adequate for answering anything PCT/102(e)-related that comes your way?

Thanks.



Just so I'm not filling up message boards and wasting bandwidth with content-free flames like other people (guest--if that is your real name  ;D) who seem to have no useful input for the message group, let me answer the above with my observations:

In my exam, the PCT questions related to either:
a)  102(e) questions (yes the charts in 706 are more than adequate--I just pulled them up from the MPEP during the exam to make sure I didn't mess it up while nervous)


b) The amount of time until you can go to national stage (i.e. 30 months regardless of whether you file demand)


anything else on PCT, (maybe 1 other question) I think was just a verbatim quote fromt the MPEP you can search using the 'find' funciton in 30 seconds--so don't worry  (I was worried about all the talk about PCT on this board, but it turned out to be no big deal)

I would spend more time on appeal and reexam and 102(e).  Other things like the parts of a provisional, etc. should be straightforward.  I do agree that reviewing the 2002 and 2003 questions were very helpful as many questions were repeats (but be careful to read the question as some of them were 95% the same but then changed one fact which affected the answer)

actually the other question I found annoying was that  
they asked about what references you can combine in 102(b).  The PLI notes say you don't combine for 102, but you can if the second reference does some very simple things like define a term, show first reference is enabling, etc.  I got it but only because I remembered some previous exam asked something similar.

As for my previous post, six months ago I was praying for someone to post on this board for these materials and they didn't.  The result cost me $$, so I have to believe that someone out there will appreciate it and I don't apologize.  But I do thank 'guest' for letting me know about the other buy/sell board--I just posted there to be 'correct' about it.  I'll let the admin make the final call.  Either way good luck to all on the test (even to you 'guest' if you haven't taken it yet).





Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Repoman on 05-22-05 at 01:17 pm
I would add to the above that if you review the
past 3 or 4 years of tests, you'll see either identical questions to all of the above that the previous poster alluded to or such close variations that if you review them you'll know exactly where in the MPEP to find them quickly(I remember the 102 question or a near variation from a previous exam and the PCT ones in 2001 - 2003 are very instructive--from all the posts its clear the past exams are the very best study guide available for this exam) .  I didn't read one page of chapter 1800 and I passed.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 05-22-05 at 02:38 pm
Thanks for the tips, Phaseflip and Repoman.  ;D
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: jmudd11 on 05-22-05 at 04:18 pm
Does anyone know if the computerized exam simply draws question at random of if it is designed to ensure similar proportionality of coverage as existed on the previous paper exams?  (i.e. is there a chance of getting a lot of questions on the same topic and on topics that were rarely tested before?)  Or, I suppose it could naturally be proportional as the bank naturally has more questions from the more heavily tested areas?

I've heard the same rumors about the new exam being PCT heavy, but it appears that this really isn't the case??
Any advice would be greatly appreciated as my study materials are based on the paper format.  (I'm taking the exam this Friday just before the switch to 8th ed., rev. 2)

Thanks!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 05-22-05 at 08:42 pm
jmudd - I'm taking the exam next Monday (3 days after you) and so I don't speak from experience, but I do not think the exam is randomized. I say this because many people on this board, as well as people I know at my firm, have reported that there are "about 20" repeat ?s from old exams. That is a consistent figure -- 20%. So ... I'm thinking there is some even distribution going on.

Hey, please post back if you remember to and let us know how it goes.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 05-22-05 at 09:07 pm
questions are not random. expect questions from almost every chapter of MPEP.  Many repeats from 2003. Few repeats from 2002.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wick on 05-23-05 at 07:27 am
I don't think the questions are being chosen randomly from a database. At the same time, there are definately different tests being administered. I took the exam a couple of weeks ago, and people that took the exam around the same time had different questions. I would say that PCT was heavily tested on my exam, but I also had a lot of questions from sections that were less heavily tested in the past, like appeals, Ex Partte reexam, duty to disclose. You should at least be familiar with the overall content of each chapter so that if you need to lookup a question, you will have time to do so.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: RLC on 05-23-05 at 07:33 am
Anyone think a list of passers will be released today or tomorrow?  If so, anyone care to guess the dates the list will encompass?  I took the exam a week ago, so I'm sure I would not be on it if I were lucky enough to pass.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 05-23-05 at 07:54 am
Has ANYONE had an inter-partes re-exam question? Or have they all been ex-parte?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Chicken_dude on 05-23-05 at 09:42 am
Quote
Has ANYONE had an inter-partes re-exam question? Or have they all been ex-parte?


I had a question which had, as possible responses, ex parte rexam or inter partes reexam. I think the other three responses were nonsense.

I don't recall the question exactly. I choose the ex parte response. It was a question I had in my list to review but I didn't have time to thouroughly go through it in the MPEP.

About PCT: I had a question about publication of a PCT app under PCT rules if the application is filed with the US receiving office and ONLY designates the US. Look it up.

Chicken Dude
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wick on 05-23-05 at 11:56 am
There probably will be a list released tomorrow or Wednesday, and I don't think it will cover an exam from a week ago.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Reissue This! on 05-24-05 at 07:13 am
Quote
Has ANYONE had an inter-partes re-exam question? Or have they all been ex-parte?


I had one similiar to the problem Chicken Dude described.

I remember the problem this way: your client thinks that ALL the claims in someone else's patent are invalid.  The client wants to avoid litigation.  The question asks what you should do, and lists the following possibilities:

1. Cite prior art to the PTO under s 301 and explain in writing the pertinency and manner of applying the prior art to AT LEAST ONE claim of the patent.

2. File a request for ex parte reexam under s 302 and explain in writing the pertinency and manner of applying the prior art to AT LEAST ONE claim of the patent.

3. File a request for inter partes reexam under s 311 and explain in writing the pertinency and manner of applying the prior art to AT LEAST ONE claim of the patent.

I didn't think the other two possibilites were relevant.  Anyway, since both ex parte and inter partes reexams require that the requestor "set forth the pertinency and manner of applying cited prior art to EVERY claim for which reexamination is requsted," I concluded that the answers #2 and #3 were not the best answer.  Since answer #1 at least conforms to the statutory language, I chose it as the "best answer."

In an earlier post I noted that since inter partes reexams aren't covered by rev. 1 of the MPEP, they're not likely to be covered too much in the current tests, except where something is OBVIOUS from the text of the statute.  This state of things will probably change next month, however, when OED begins testing based on rev. 2.

I'm also willing to bet that there will be fewer "repeats" from the 2003 exams after rev. 2 becomes fair game for OED and they have all kinds of new subject matter they can test; of course, I'm just guessing about that . . .
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Studying hard on 05-24-05 at 09:11 am
Quote


About PCT: I had a question about publication of a PCT app under PCT rules if the application is filed with the US receiving office and ONLY designates the US. Look it up.

Chicken Dude

Thanks for the heads up, Chicken Dude!

Check out 1803, 2nd paragraph.  If the US is the only contracting state designated, the international application will not be published at 18 months.  

Thanks to all for the very helpful comments!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Bibi on 05-24-05 at 09:59 am
My name was on the pass list posted on 10 MAy (for 24june 2005). I have not sent in the oath yet. Should I still see my name in the list, every one in this forum talks about ? where do i locate my registration number? Also, does june 24 mean that I shall be a registered patent agent from that date? Thanks in advance
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 05-24-05 at 10:50 am
A couple trivia questions for MPEP buffs (ChiTownBob posted some of these questions but I was unable to find an answer):

1. ...a continuation of an app is filed where a restriction req'mt has been made. Applicant ignores restriction req'mt and files with all the original claims. What does the Examiner do?

2. What can an assignee sign w/o having recorded ownership? (ChiTownBob says CoC -- anyone disagree?)

Thanks to one and all.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 05-24-05 at 12:53 pm
Basically what happens is shortly after you see your name on the OED "Persons Seeking Registration to Practice in Patent Cases" list, you will get a letter from the PTO along with the paperwork you need to fill out.

Then you need to wait until about a week or two after the date on the same OED list (ex: June 24, 2005 for the list posted on May 10, 2005) .  At that time, your name and registration number should appear in the results of the Advanced Search for registered agents/attorneys, also on the OED website.  Around that time, you will also get your official certificate in the mail.

So unfortunately you don't actually get your registration number for about 2 months after you find out you passed the test via the OED website.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: johnny mags on 05-24-05 at 02:14 pm
if you don't fill out your oath, i don't think you will get a reg number.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Chicken_dude on 05-24-05 at 02:17 pm
Quote
Thanks for the heads up, Chicken Dude!

Check out 1803, 2nd paragraph.  If the US is the only contracting state designated, the international application will not be published at 18 months.  



Thats it. Fortunately I found that during the exam.

Chicken Dude
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bibi on 05-24-05 at 03:38 pm
yeah, I am out of the country and though I know the oath has reached my home, I have to get home to send it back. Hopefully it'll reach them on time
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: New Agent on 05-24-05 at 10:43 pm
I took the exam in Dec. and passed. 1/3 of the question were repeats from the old exams published on the USPTO web site. Learn to use the PDF search tool to find the answer.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Chicken_dude on 05-25-05 at 09:03 am
I sure hope I passed.

I am on the borderline between being confident and not being confident that I passed. A few of the people who expressed the same feelings passed so maybe there is hope.

Chicken Dude
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: leitztozeiss on 05-25-05 at 10:26 am
I was really hoping that results would be posted yesterday or today . . . hopefully, this week.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 05-25-05 at 10:35 am
You have to understand that pressing a key on the computer keyboard to print pass/fail letters and generate a list of successful candidates is a very time consuming and tedious task. It takes lots of work to retrieve "already processed" exams from the computer. Moreover, it will be a shame for the nation if government starts working efficiently.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Appleton on 05-25-05 at 11:20 am
Quote
You have to understand that pressing a key on the computer keyboard to print pass/fail letters and generate a list of successful candidates is a very time consuming and tedious task. It takes lots of work to retrieve "already processed" exams from the computer. Moreover, it will be a shame for the nation if government starts working efficiently.



What's the deal with these people?  I called a few weeks ago and they told me pass lists are published on Tuesdays and that my pass list would be published either last Tuesday or this Tueday.  When this Tuesday came and went, I called again and a different lady told me that the results are published whenever they are available, which may or may not be on a Tuesday.

Anyway I took the exam April 30 and still no word.  I called today and the lady said the results "are being processed" but wouldn't give me an exact completion date.    
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 05-25-05 at 06:34 pm
Has anyone bought this CD?  It looks like a very helpful compilation of materials needed to study for and pass the exam.

http://www.braindex.com/study_guide_materials/law/pto_patent_bar_exam_study_review_package.htm
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Dr._J. on 05-25-05 at 06:41 pm
A call to the PTO/OED, today, May 24, indicated that test results from April 29 to May 17 would be posted today or tomorrow.  They weren't posted today.  I took the exam on May 13.

I am sort of shocked that you don't have your results yet: so I am not very confident that the list to be published soon will be inclusive for me.  

Would any else volunteer information on the timely publishing of this list?  What are typical delay times between taking the exam and getting the results published online?

Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: RLC on 05-26-05 at 06:08 am
I contacted the OED this morning.  A seemingly knowledgable person told me that a successful list would likely be posted today up to and including May 12 exams.  The next list would then be released in the beginning of June.  We shall see.  Good luck to all hopefuls.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: fingers crossed on 05-26-05 at 10:11 am
Has anyone bought this CD?  It looks like a very helpful compilation of materials needed to study for and pass the exam.

http://www.braindex.com/study_guide_materials/law/pto_patent_bar_exam_st udy_review_package.htm  


Why pay when there are free resources?  check out http://www.upstartraising.com/patentbar/index.html and http://www.openipsource.com/ .  Upstartraising only charges to grade and store your results, the software is free, you just have to copy your answers onto paper.  You can download the exam answers and the MPEP from the USPTO website for free.  I purchased exam simulator software but ended up using the free software because it was better than the purchased software.

Also, it took about a month for me to receive my results.  If you take the test right after the cut off date (usually around the 15th and the 30th, then you have to wait longer to get your results.  Some people who have took the exam right before the cut off date (12th or the 25th) received their results within a couple of weeks.

Lastly, Bibi, you have two years from your test date to submit everything to the USPTO, otherwise you have to retake the exam.  If you submit everything within 30 days from your pass letter, then you should receive your registration number about a week after the final date for others to submit negative information about you (6-7 weeks after the date of your pass letter).
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wick on 05-26-05 at 11:33 am
Talked with the OED at 2:27 D.C. time. They sent out notices of results yesterday for tests covering April 29th - May 23rd. She thought the list would be up online either today or tomorrow. Good luck!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: leitztozeiss on 05-26-05 at 12:36 pm
I should probably stop refreshing the OED site every 5 minutes.  Sucks to be impatient.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 05-26-05 at 12:37 pm
Quote
Talked with the OED at 2:27 D.C. time. They sent out notices of results yesterday for tests covering April 29th - May 23rd. She thought the list would be up online either today or tomorrow. Good luck!


I got the same reply. She said the results should have been up on the website. Asked me to keep checking...
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 05-26-05 at 12:44 pm
visit http://changedetection.com/monitor.html

click on the link provided there. Enter this link to monitor

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/names.htm

follow the steps.

This service will notify you if OED posts new list on the web page.

(you can also use this service to monitor other websites too)
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: leitztozeiss on 05-26-05 at 01:21 pm
Thanks patento - useful site.

If they're saying that the results should be up by now, then the delay is probably with their IT department.  No surprise if the delay is with IT.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA on 05-26-05 at 01:43 pm
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA  ;D
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 05-26-05 at 03:58 pm
Wow, I just realized that a lot of people that took the April 2000 exam must have gotten royally screwed. There are at least 3 bogus questions on that test that should have been thrown out. It's funny that neither the PTO nor PLI's John White caught the mistakes in his "analysis" of old exams. If you care to see these errors, open the April 2000 file at

http://law.vanderbilt.edu/stuorgs/pipso/ref.htm

#1: Question 15 - no right answers. They say all as possible answers, but look at D -- a dependent claim cannot depend on itself.  Neither PLI nor PTO caught this in their answers listings.

#2: Question 28 -- says E is the right answer, but I submit that C should be accepted as well. In an appeal the ex can in fact enter a new group of rejection in an Examiner's answer, so C is correct, but the Examiner must then re-open prosecution.

#3: Question 42 -- answer says that B is acceptable. B contains a claim that uses the word "high temperature," which in my experience in patent prosecution is often considered indefinite. It depends on the context, yes, but this should be thrown out -- it's a very subjective issue.

How does the PTO get away with this? Now I'm scared that the exam is going to have questions like this, and should I fail, I'll have to fork over hundreds to fly to Wash DC or just fork over hundreds to re-take the test.

:P
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: xenoslush on 05-26-05 at 07:26 pm
Seems like in MPEP 1208.01 they make it quite clear that entry of a new ground of rejection in an examiner's answer is prohibited.. with the one exception (37 CFR 1.193(a)(2) - which in itself appears to be an old ground of rejection anyway).

My interpretation is that a new ground of rejection can only be entered AFTER the examiner reopens prosecution and not before (in examiner's answer). So, according to this, C is not true.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Kayton Narcolepsy on 05-27-05 at 07:06 am
Arrghh!! It's good to know that I'm not alone in waiting for these results to come back... it's enough to drive a person nuts.  A couple of quick points:

(1) THANKS to everyone who posted suggestions re: reviewing 2003 exams, etc.-- if you are taking the exam between now and June 2d (now 8th), this thread is right on the money-- LOTS of appeal, reexam, and PCT are the order of the day-- along with 10-15 repeats from the 2003 exams.

(2) Just spoke to OED: they indicated that (a) the Director just received the list this morning, so it will NOT be available online until next week; and (b) the cutoff date for this list is May 12th, NOT May 23rd.

Hope this helps!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: leitztozeiss on 05-27-05 at 07:13 am
So, it is probably not true that letters were sent out a couple of days ago.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Kayton Narcolepsy on 05-27-05 at 07:14 am
No -- OED indicated that the letters went out for April 29th - May 12th-- it seems they're just a bit slow in getting those results posted.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wick on 05-27-05 at 07:49 am
You can apparently get a different response from the OED each time you call.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: leitztozeiss on 05-27-05 at 08:35 am
Ok my friends.  Forget looking online.  Check you mailboxes.  I just got my letter - I passed.  Score is not provided.

So, go check you mailboxes . . . N O W ! ! !
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Chicken_dude on 05-27-05 at 08:36 am
Quote
#3: Question 42 -- answer says that B is acceptable. B contains a claim that uses the word "high temperature," which in my experience in patent prosecution is often considered indefinite. It depends on the context, yes, but this should be thrown out -- it's a very subjective issue.


Its not subjective and the answer is correct. The fact pattern of the question says,

Quote
...each claim is fully supported by the disclosure in preceding claims or in the application wherein the claim appears,...
Emphasis Mine.

If the claim is "fully supported" then the implication is clearly that the specification contains enough to determine what is meant by "high temperature" and thus its not indefinite.

Chicken Dude

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 05-27-05 at 08:39 am
Congrats!  You must be in the east coast. Being in California, I will have to wait until next week.

Quote
Ok my friends.  Forget looking online.  Check you mailboxes.  I just got my letter - I passed.  Score is not provided.

So, go check you mailboxes . . . N O W ! ! !

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 05-27-05 at 10:22 am
Good call, Chicken Dude! My mistake.

I think I've found another one - though I could be wrong.

26. (Paraphrasing) The following claims are fully supported in the spec:

1. A widget comprising A, B and C.
2. A widget as claimed in Claim 1 wherein C further comprises D.
3. A widget as claimed in Claim 1 and 2 wherein B is B'B'.

Examiner rejects claim 3 as improperly dependent. Which of the following is presented in proper claim format?

(A) 3. A widget as claimed in Claim 1 wherein B is B'B'.

(B) 3. A widget as claimed in any one of Claims 1 and 2 wherein B is B'B'.


PTO says A is correct and B is incorrect because B does not resolve the improper dependency issue. Looks to me that B does and that B could also be correct. I see some examples in the MPEP to back me up. Comments anyone? Am I missing something? Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: melwrc on 05-27-05 at 11:12 am
Your paraphrase is slightly inaccurate.  You must also consider HOW the claims are amended because the question is "In the absence of issues of supporting disclosure, which of the following proposed amendments is presented in proper claim format?"  The PTO wouldn't have bothered showing underlining and brackets if the question was just which alternative claim is correct.  Note that it says "proper claim format," not proper multiple dependent claim format.

In general, when doing multiple dependency questions, only select an answer that appears verbatim in sec. 608.01(n).  Answer B is not on the list, close but not exactly.  But I don't think that this question is entirely about multiple dependents.  I think that reason for B being considered as incorrect is the form of the amendment.  Looking carefully at answer B (on the actual test because underlining isn't supported on this board), the "s" is added to "claim" without being underlined.  D and E are in equal or better multiple dependent form than B, but the amendments are improperly made.

In this question, A is clearly correct by not being a multiple dependent.  The amendment is also properly made (underline for added text, strikethrough or brackets for deletion).  The question did not require that the right answer be a multiple dependent claim.  

Some examiners might let B slide without sending out a Notice of Non-Compliant Amendment, but A is the only answer that cannot be properly rejected by an examiner.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wick on 05-27-05 at 11:13 am
Yeah, I gues us folks out West get the joy of weatin' out for another weekend before results are posted or letters received. The patent office confirmed that names will indeed not be posted until next week, due to the difficulty of uploading the names of those who have passed, for whom they have already mailed out letters on the 25th.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 05-27-05 at 11:47 am
Thanks melwrc. I guess I just need to get used to the idea of picking the "best answer." I was confused regarding this question because the answer list doesn't discuss bracketing/underlining issues but instead says that B is incorrect because it's still not in proper multiple dependent form. No idea what to make of that.

At least if I get a question like this, I'll know what to watch for.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 05-27-05 at 12:03 pm
Just got the snail mail. I passed too. took the test on May 9th.

Credit to my success in the exam goes to the people who posted their experience and questions from the exam.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: jmudd11 on 05-27-05 at 02:19 pm
Well, I just finished taking the exam.  I didn't think it was too bad.  Everyone's comments on here REALLY helped out and held true.

There were lots of repeats from the most recent paper exam (October 2003), so make sure that you have studied that exam closely.  That's at least 15 freebies, which gives you lots of time to look up the stuff you're not sure about.

There were a lot of PCT questions (probably around 8-10) and questions involving foreign priority issues - but, this was something I had been warned about, so I had studied PCT closely.
Make sure you know in detail the requirements for getting an international filing date, the req's and timelines for national stage entry, and the PCT power of attorney and representation rules.

Lots of appeal questions, too.

I actually had one biotech question on submitting nucleotide sequences in Computer Readable Format.  That was definitely a look up for me.

No PTA at all!  I recall soemone else posting online that they had no PTA on their exam either.

Good luck, Anonymous1, you should be fine.

It's so great having the searchable MPEP - far better than using a hard copy.  I didn't think it was awkward to use at all - especially when you can type in verbatim text from questions and have it take you straight to the answer....

Make sure you practice using the online simulator.  I used upstartraising.com's simulator and found it to be a pretty good equivalent to the real thing.  Make sure you get a lot of practice at looking stuff up with the online version of the MPEP - if you're good at that, then the exam is a lot easier.
They seem to have worked out any bugs that there may have been with the searchable MPEP, because mine worked flawlessly and quickly (e.g. I could do a search of all of chapter 2100 in about 10 seconds).

Well, since the last round of results just came out, it looks like I could be waiting a while to find out my results....bummer.  Oh well, time to start studying for the Missouri Bar exam now.....ugh
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: xenoslush on 05-27-05 at 03:07 pm
just curious about the appeal questions on the exam. are they mostly on the filing date of the Appeal Brief, cancellation of rejected/objected claims after withdrawal/dismissal, filing of Amendments during Appeal?

thanks in advance for any hints.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: jmudd11 on 05-27-05 at 04:18 pm
From what I recall, there was the full range of appeal questions.

Frequently, they'll give you a certain procedural posture involving an appeal and ask you what the possible courses of action are at that point (and usually what the best course is for your client).

There were a couple dealing with when the Board issues a new grounds for rejection.

There was one about what happens when a deadline is missed during appeal and there are some claims allowed and some that stand rejected.

There were a few dealing with deadlines, extensions, etc. associated with appeals.

To give you an idea the extent they covered appeal on my exam, they even asked me a question dealing with when an examiner's answer brief raises a new interpretation of the law.  In that case, it must be approved by the TC director and then sent on to the Office of Patent Examination and Policy for approval.  
(Don't worry, I didn't actually know that, I just searched "new interpretation of law" in Chapter 1000, found a reference referring me to 1200, where I did the same search and found the exact answer I was looking for....)

Oh yeah, there was one dealing with how a notice of appeal need not be signed, too.

That's all I can remember right now (and all I really choose to remember at this point.....it's time to hit the bars)
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: no-reexam on 05-27-05 at 04:19 pm
I took the exam on 5/9, and got the letter from PTO today. I passed. This is my first try.

First of all I want to thank everyone here. This forum really helped me a lot.

I would like to share how I prepared for the exam.

I did not take or read any prep class/books, just MPEP and old exams.

For the MPEP:

I read 100-600, 50% of 700, double patenting part of 800, 1200, 1400, 1800 and part of 2200.

I did not read 2100 at all. But I took Patent Law before so knew some basic principles. I just did not have enough time to read 700 and 2100 (though they are really the foundation of knowing the patent system).

I studied on part-time basis from Feb - May 8.

For the old exams, I did 2002 and 2003 exams. On the first round, I only get 56-68% correct. Before exam, I could get 90-95% correct. I think it helps a lot if you go through the old exams 3 -4 times, and you will remember 95% of the answers.

Thanks again and good luck to everyone.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: jmudd11 on 05-27-05 at 04:20 pm
I re-read your question, and yes, there was also a question dealing with filing of amendments on appeal (there might have been two questions dealing with that, actually).
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: xenoslush on 05-27-05 at 06:14 pm
awesome. great info. thanks jmudd.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: ajay on 05-28-05 at 06:44 am
hi  everyone , can anyine suggest me as to what study material i should follow to take the patent bar .
am a little confused, as there are too many people offering study courses.
i would like to know which one will be the best  and will it be sufficient or do i need to buy anything else apart from what you suggest me.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Studying hard on 05-28-05 at 09:06 am
Quote
Arrghh!!  
(1) THANKS to everyone who posted suggestions re: reviewing 2003 exams, etc.-- if you are taking the exam between now and June 2d (now 8th), this thread is right on the money-- LOTS of appeal, reexam, and PCT are the order of the day-- along with 10-15 repeats from the 2003 exams.


Kayton Narcolepsy, or anyone else in the know:

How did you find out that MPEP 8th, 2nd rev goes into effect on June 8?  I can't find this info on USPTO website.  

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: xenoslush on 05-28-05 at 11:17 am
"The examination will begin using the Eighth Edition, Revision 2 of the MPEP on Thursday, June 9, 2005. The March 2 nd notice announced a starting date of “on or about June 2, 2005.” It has become necessary to reschedule the beginning date to assure that the questions are properly formatted."

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/reschedule2dedmpep.htm
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Studying on 05-28-05 at 11:35 pm
Hey, everyone.  For those of you who have already taken and pass the exam, how long did you study?  PLI says to study for like 150 hours.  Is that about right?

I think this board is great.  Congrats to everyone who's passed and good luck to those planning to take it soon.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wick on 05-31-05 at 08:31 am
The OED List is out!!! I passed!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Reissue This! on 05-31-05 at 08:49 am
Congrats to those on today's list.  OED is currently adding the names of those on the 4/12 pass list to the (Advanced Search) database, complete with registration #'s.  I think they're entering the names in alphabetical order - a surprisingly methodical process for OED.  Last I checked they had entered the names thru "Smith" but hadn't gotten to "Sojonky" yet.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: No-ReExam on 05-31-05 at 09:01 am
I have a question regarding filling out the Data Sheet for registration. Hope someone here has a good answer.

I don't have a "corporation" yet to conduct for future patenting biz, and I will not work for my current employer as patent agent [totally irrelevant biz]. The question is when filling out the "Correespondence/Business Name" and "Correspondence/Business Address" in the Data Sheet, can I just use my own name, and home address or just leave them blank?

Thanks, appreciate any input.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: aeest4 on 05-31-05 at 09:37 am
Is anyone who took the exam after May 15 on the list?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Kayton Narcolepsy on 05-31-05 at 10:11 am
Just spoke to OED-- current list is for 4/29/05 - 5/12/05.  Not sure when the next batch will be posted
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 05-31-05 at 11:05 am
Quote
I have a question regarding filling out the Data Sheet for registration. Hope someone here has a good answer.

I don't have a "corporation" yet to conduct for future patenting biz, and I will not work for my current employer as patent agent [totally irrelevant biz]. The question is when filling out the "Correespondence/Business Name" and "Correspondence/Business Address" in the Data Sheet, can I just use my own name, and home address or just leave them blank?

Thanks, appreciate any input.


I used my own name and address.  Left "business name" blank.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 05-31-05 at 11:07 am
Quote
The OED List is out!!! I passed!


Congrats!

I received the letter on Friday. Did you check your mail? I am in California and I should be the last one to received snail mail.


Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Appleton on 05-31-05 at 12:28 pm
Quote

Congrats!

I received the letter on Friday. Did you check your mail? I am in California and I should be the last one to received snail mail.





I passed today too!  Congrats to everyone.  I sidn't get the letter as of Saturday...hopefully will be there today.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: spin on 05-31-05 at 01:48 pm
Hey just took the exam.  It was a pain...the computer would not load the Patent Exam so three of us had to sit and wait for two hours until it fixed.  

Anyway, I guess the million dollar question for me is how long for the results?  And is the Notice of Persons Seeking Registration where they post them?  Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 05-31-05 at 02:00 pm
Spin - that is indeed where they post the results, and it'll probably be at least a couple weeks, although I'll leave the final word up to those on this board that are more knowledgeable about that stuff.

Spin, did you (or anyone else reading this) have a question along these lines -- applicant files in Japan, then files an IA claiming priority to the Japanese app, then enters National Stage in USRO and in the national stage also claims priority to Japanese app. Applicant submits necessary paperwork to IB (certified document, etc) and IB forwards proper documents on to the USRO. Applicant receives a rejection from US office, which rejection could be overcome by the benefit of the Japanese filing date. Question asked -- what does applicant need to file to perfect Japanese priority claim?

I could NOT find the answer to this question. (A) said something about priority not being possible (I think it is possible). (B) said something about filing a certified copy of the Japanese app - well this is unnecessary, since the IB has already taken care of sending certified docs to USRO. (C) said something about filing an English translation. I didn't see anything in the MPEP (I was looking somewhere near 1893.03(c) I think) about needing a translation for 119(a) priority, only for 119(e) priority. (D) was a combination of (B) and (C). (E) was (D) but also included a copy of the IA. I couldn't find a right answer, so I guessed (C), since the IB has already sent the necessary materials (options A, B, D, E) to the USRO. Anyone else know the answer to this?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patentpending on 05-31-05 at 02:18 pm
I had the same question on my exam (2nd half) and searched for a while only to find nothing.  I chose C as well (only submit the translation), because it seemed as if everything else had been sent........

Anyone else see this question?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wick on 05-31-05 at 02:25 pm
Quote

Congrats!

I received the letter on Friday. Did you check your mail? I am in California and I should be the last one to received snail mail.




Congrats to you as well!

I'm in Utah and I actually just recieved the letter this afternoon. It made for a long and frustrating weekend of knowing that the results were out and I couldn't see them.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: RLC on 05-31-05 at 02:37 pm
Was that PCT question the one where an answer choice had something to do with Japan not being a member of the PCT?  I thought I had one where that was mentioned, although the question I can barely recall now seemed to include that priority was not attempted to be claimed until the national stage.  Is this the same one?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Spin on 05-31-05 at 03:59 pm
anonymous1 - I very vaguely remeber the question, and I think I used section 201.14; (a); (b), but looking at it again I'm not sure how applicable it is without seeing the actual question again.  I had at least three questions with Japanese patents and they all are messhed together at this point.  But I don't think an english translation is necessary, because, at least for 119(a)-(d) priority papers the office doesn't even examine them to determine if the applicant is actually entitled to the claim, although the commissioner can require a translation if appropriate.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 05-31-05 at 06:05 pm
Quote
anonymous1 - I very vaguely remeber the question, and I think I used section 201.14; (a); (b), but looking at it again I'm not sure how applicable it is without seeing the actual question again.  I had at least three questions with Japanese patents and they all are messhed together at this point.  But I don't think an english translation is necessary, because, at least for 119(a)-(d) priority papers the office doesn't even examine them to determine if the applicant is actually entitled to the claim, although the commissioner can require a translation if appropriate.  



I found this...seems right to me, from what the MPEP says and PLI lectures..

Claiming foreign priority in a natl stage is same as in a non-provisional..

Translation is required to perfect foreign priority to be used to overcome a reference.  Check 201.15 (page 200-100).

Since the certified copy is already on file, my guess is that C is correct - just file the translation.




Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 05-31-05 at 07:25 pm
Thanks for the info ... I hope I got that right!!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wick on 06-01-05 at 09:53 am
Quote
Hey, everyone.  For those of you who have already taken and pass the exam, how long did you study?  PLI says to study for like 150 hours.  Is that about right?

I think this board is great.  Congrats to everyone who's passed and good luck to those planning to take it soon.


I put in a little over 200 hours (give or take) of study in preparation. I just couldn't see myself dishing out all the money to retake the exam.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 06-01-05 at 10:41 am
Quote

I put in a little over 200 hours (give or take) of study in preparation. I just couldn't see myself dishing out all the money to retake the exam.


I put approx 150-200 hours. I picked up an old version of PLI but sold it within a week (got it cheap sold at good price, made $250 :-)  ). The problem is that these study aids do not go in sufficient details. For most parts I studied from MPEP directly. It is tedious, boring and time consuming but it gets you through....

My suggestion, use a good outline (or dissection of MPEP... such as PLI guide) first. Once you know the basics, switch entirely to MPEP. Practice as many questions as you can. Also, look at the detailed answers to ALL the questions you practice (and not just the one you marked incorrect). sometimes, you mark the right answer for wrong reason.

Re-do 2003 questions just before the actual test and remember the answers. There are usually 15-20 repeats from 2002 - 2003. Watch out the language of the question. Many questions appear repeat from past exams but they are little different. Watch out the changes in law/procedures when doing older exams (specially past exams older than 2002). Pay special attention to 102(e), PCT, Reexam, appeal, different types of extensions of time etc. Follow the questions posted by many users on this board.

Download MPEP from www.openipsource.com. These people have highlighted important portions of MPEP text... very useful.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 06-01-05 at 11:11 am
I would add that many of the questions that people have mentioned on this board that are on the website are found not just in the 03 exam but also in the 00-01 exams and several in the 02 exams. Problem is, if you're studying the old (00, 01) exams, you have to know which problems you should skip due to rule changes, etc. and which ones are still applicable. Sorry about the poor grammar.  ;D
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: kevin19 on 06-02-05 at 08:27 am
So I took the exam yesterday.  Pretty much the norm.

First half pretty straightforward, second half loaded with PCT, reexam, reissue.

I didn't see many repeats.  No more than 10.  I guess the PTO is changing up their question bank..
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: xenoslush on 06-02-05 at 10:27 am
Quote
So I took the exam yesterday.  Pretty much the norm.

First half pretty straightforward, second half loaded with PCT, reexam, reissue.

I didn't see many repeats.  No more than 10.  I guess the PTO is changing up their question bank..


Likewise.. however, I did see quite a few repeats. Also, my second half was loaded with Patentability questions.. specifically relating to 103. I remember having to look up a couple of details in 2143 and 2144.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: xenoslush on 06-02-05 at 10:34 am
..oh and loads of Appeal. Check out jmudd's post (thanks jmudd). I got the same "interpretation of law" question. Saved me some time.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 06-02-05 at 12:43 pm
Well, for those of us who just took it -- I called OED to get an idea of how long it'd be. I took the test May 30, and evidently they sent SOMETHING out on May 31, because the lady I spoke with was checking to see if my results went out in that mailing. Evidently they didn't, so she said I should hear something in the standard 2-4 weeks. Guess I'll keep checking online.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 06-03-05 at 09:52 am
Remembered another question - curious if anyone else had it and how they answered.

To summarize, Herb is a sole inventor, and after filing an app and assigning the invention to X Corp., Herb dies.  Jacob prepared the application for Herb. What does Jacob do to continue prosecution?

(A) Continue prosecuting the app -- I don't think so, b/c the power of attorney was given BY HERB, and Herb died, and since he's the sole inventor, Jacob no longer has a pwr of atty

(B) Obtain a power of atty from the assignee and then continue to prosecute.

(C) Obtain a power of atty from the administrator of the estate, then continue to prosecute, where the administrator is court appointed

(D) (E) - I think they were bogus answers, not sure. Actually I think (C), as I've described it, might have really been (E) or something ... anyway...

I struggled between (B) and (C) -- without looking it up, I think the rule says that the administrator can execute a new pwr of atty unless and until the assignee steps in. I chose (B), the a new pwr of atty from the assignee -- it just seemed a simpler route for Jacob, and at this point a court-appointed administrator doesn't really have an interest in the patent, but assignee does. Of course I dont think that interest is a requirement for a court-appointed administrator to sign documents during prosecution.

Anyone else remember this? Sorry my recollection of the answer choices are so vague.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 06-03-05 at 10:17 am
(B) is correct.

Quote
Remembered another question - curious if anyone else had it and how they answered.

To summarize, Herb is a sole inventor, and after filing an app and assigning the invention to X Corp., Herb dies.  Jacob prepared the application for Herb. What does Jacob do to continue prosecution?

(A) Continue prosecuting the app -- I don't think so, b/c the power of attorney was given BY HERB, and Herb died, and since he's the sole inventor, Jacob no longer has a pwr of atty

(B) Obtain a power of atty from the assignee and then continue to prosecute.

(C) Obtain a power of atty from the administrator of the estate, then continue to prosecute, where the administrator is court appointed

(D) (E) - I think they were bogus answers, not sure. Actually I think (C), as I've described it, might have really been (E) or something ... anyway...

I struggled between (B) and (C) -- without looking it up, I think the rule says that the administrator can execute a new pwr of atty unless and until the assignee steps in. I chose (B), the a new pwr of atty from the assignee -- it just seemed a simpler route for Jacob, and at this point a court-appointed administrator doesn't really have an interest in the patent, but assignee does. Of course I dont think that interest is a requirement for a court-appointed administrator to sign documents during prosecution.

Anyone else remember this? Sorry my recollection of the answer choices are so vague.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: RLC on 06-03-05 at 12:06 pm
Did anyone who took the exam between May 13 and May 24 receive a results letter today?  Apparently, those were sent out on 6/1.  Just wondered if anyone had gotten one to know if I might find one in my mail today.  Thanks for any info!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 06-03-05 at 01:57 pm
I took it on May 16, and got my letter today.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Kayton Narcolepsy on 06-03-05 at 02:30 pm
Ahhh!! I can't take the waiting!  I'm in NYC and didn't receive the letter yet... took the exam on May 19th.  Where are you located that you already received it? And why can't they update the effing site at the same time?? >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: RLC on 06-03-05 at 02:57 pm
I'm with you Kayton.  I left work early because I thought it would be here today.  I was wrong.  This is unbelievable.  I do not understand this at all.  I really thought I would have it today.  This has been the most agonizing experience of my life.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Studying hard on 06-04-05 at 08:55 am
Quote
Remembered another question - curious if anyone else had it and how they answered.

To summarize, Herb is a sole inventor, and after filing an app and assigning the invention to X Corp., Herb dies.  Jacob prepared the application for Herb. What does Jacob do to continue prosecution?

(A) Continue prosecuting the app -- I don't think so, b/c the power of attorney was given BY HERB, and Herb died, and since he's the sole inventor, Jacob no longer has a pwr of atty

(B) Obtain a power of atty from the assignee and then continue to prosecute.

(C) Obtain a power of atty from the administrator of the estate, then continue to prosecute, where the administrator is court appointed

(D) (E) - I think they were bogus answers, not sure. Actually I think (C), as I've described it, might have really been (E) or something ... anyway...

I struggled between (B) and (C) -- without looking it up, I think the rule says that the administrator can execute a new pwr of atty unless and until the assignee steps in. I chose (B), the a new pwr of atty from the assignee -- it just seemed a simpler route for Jacob, and at this point a court-appointed administrator doesn't really have an interest in the patent, but assignee does. Of course I dont think that interest is a requirement for a court-appointed administrator to sign documents during prosecution.

Anyone else remember this? Sorry my recollection of the answer choices are so vague.



What about the following two sections from the MPEP - does either of these definitively resolve the question?  (personally after reading each, I'm confused...)

409.01(f)
When an inventor dies after filing an application and executing an oath or declaration required by 37 CFR 1.63, the executor or administrator should intervene, but the allowance of the application will not be withheld nor the application withdrawn from issue if the executor or administrator does not intervene.  

409.01(e)
When an applicant who has prosecuted an application after assignment, dies, the administrator of the deceased applicant’s estate may carry on the prosecution upon filing letters of administration unless and until the assignee intervenes.  (MPEP 402.07)
 
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Studying hard on 06-04-05 at 09:37 am
Quote
Remembered another question - curious if anyone else had it and how they answered.

To summarize, Herb is a sole inventor, and after filing an app and assigning the invention to X Corp., Herb dies.  Jacob prepared the application for Herb. What does Jacob do to continue prosecution?

(A) Continue prosecuting the app -- I don't think so, b/c the power of attorney was given BY HERB, and Herb died, and since he's the sole inventor, Jacob no longer has a pwr of atty

(B) Obtain a power of atty from the assignee and then continue to prosecute.

(C) Obtain a power of atty from the administrator of the estate, then continue to prosecute, where the administrator is court appointed

(D) (E) - I think they were bogus answers, not sure. Actually I think (C), as I've described it, might have really been (E) or something ... anyway...

I struggled between (B) and (C) -- without looking it up, I think the rule says that the administrator can execute a new pwr of atty unless and until the assignee steps in. I chose (B), the a new pwr of atty from the assignee -- it just seemed a simpler route for Jacob, and at this point a court-appointed administrator doesn't really have an interest in the patent, but assignee does. Of course I dont think that interest is a requirement for a court-appointed administrator to sign documents during prosecution.

Anyone else remember this? Sorry my recollection of the answer choices are so vague.



What about the following two sections from the MPEP - does either of these definitively resolve the question?  (personally after reading each, I'm confused...)

409.01(f)
When an inventor dies after filing an application and executing an oath or declaration required by 37 CFR 1.63, the executor or administrator should intervene, but the allowance of the application will not be withheld nor the application withdrawn from issue if the executor or administrator does not intervene.  

409.01(e)
When an applicant who has prosecuted an application after assignment, dies, the administrator of the deceased applicant’s estate may carry on the prosecution upon filing letters of administration unless and until the assignee intervenes.  (MPEP 402.07)
 
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Chicken_dude on 06-04-05 at 12:22 pm

I got my letter today (Saturday June 4, 2005.) I passed.

I took the test May 20. The letter is dated June 1.

I used the BarBri materials. I highly recomend them as they put me on the right path and uncovered obvious pitfalls. Expensive but clearly worth it. The amount of materials that the BarBri comes with and the testing software are great. The test software is not exactly like the test but it doesn't really matter. They have old questions grouped by category and by test dates. http://www.patentbarbri.com/

The video lectures are great. I will bet that I got at least 50 questions correct by the lectures, intensively studying the lecture notes and doing the tests based on that specific study alone. (i.e. not requiring MPEP lookup during the test.) The rest was probably studying via their outline and materials with the old tests.

It is very interesting that BarBri is a Thomson company and so is Prometric who gives the exam.

For all those struggling, I wasn't sure I passed after I took the test and I didnt have time left over. I was getting mid 80s on old tests when I took them with the BarBri software and with a PDF MPEP. (That is, simulating the test environment.)

Chicken Dude.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: aeest40 on 06-05-05 at 04:43 am
Took the exam may 17 in LA.  Mainly studied of MPEP and practice tests.  This thread was a great help.  Noticed after I took the exam that there are some impressive free materials at the site below.  Wish I'd known that earlier.  Also, Jim Longacre's site has some good free stuff (google it).  Good luck.

http://www.openipsource.com/PatentBarReviewCourse.html
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: aeest40 on 06-05-05 at 04:44 am
By the way, haven't heard results yet.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patentpending on 06-05-05 at 07:51 pm
 ;D  I took the test on May 18th and got my letter that I passed.  Much of the advice on this message board was accurate.  I counted 26 direct repeats on my exam, and about 4-5 that were similar to previous questions on old exams.  My test was definitely heavy on 102 and 103 patentability questions, so my recommendation would be to spend a lot of time in 2100, and even read the entire chapter.  I only saw about 4 PCT questions on my test.  

Good luck to everyone else that is expecting to hear something in the next day or two!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: darth_razor on 06-06-05 at 06:36 am
 ???
Lies, damn lies and statistics:
Now that we've been Prometric for just over a year can anyone answer, or point me to an answer to:
What's the Prometric pass rate compared to the biannual paper exam? Is the pass rate improving as the bugs get ironed out? How many people total are doing the Prometric thing compared to the paper exam? It'd be interesting to compare v. the July paper exam also but that'll be in the future. Do we know if the July exam Q's will be posted on the PTO site?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patentpending on 06-06-05 at 07:06 am
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/regprac21jul05.htm

Congrats to everyone that passed!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 06-06-05 at 07:10 am

Looking at the long pass lists of candidates being posted in one given month, I can guess that the pass rate is much pretty good.

Quote
???
Lies, damn lies and statistics:
Now that we've been Prometric for just over a year can anyone answer, or point me to an answer to:
What's the Prometric pass rate compared to the biannual paper exam? Is the pass rate improving as the bugs get ironed out? How many people total are doing the Prometric thing compared to the paper exam? It'd be interesting to compare v. the July paper exam also but that'll be in the future. Do we know if the July exam Q's will be posted on the PTO site?

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patentpending on 06-06-05 at 07:15 am
I think the numbers might also be influenced by a bunch of new law grads and those (like me) who were trying to get in before they changed the MPEP and added new questions.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: RLC on 06-06-05 at 07:28 am
I was on the list.  I want to thank each and every person who contributed information about the exam on here.  Without it I would not have passed.  So I owe my future career to all you generous souls.  Thanks so much!  Good luck to all future takers!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Kayton Narcolespy on 06-06-05 at 07:30 am
Congratulations to everyone who passed!  I'm on the list, as well (though no letter yet- how long does it take mail to go from DC - NY?)  I'll second everything I've read on here-- with the caveat that we don't know how MPEP Ed.2 will affect things, this thread is great for focusing you in on the important areas-- and then there's no substitute for LOTS of questions (I did 1500 for this, my second attempt).  Best of luck to all of you, especially those taking the regular bar AND this in short order!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: kevin19 on 06-06-05 at 10:47 am
Anyone know what dates the latest posting covers?

I took it 6/1

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 06-06-05 at 11:00 am
It covers 5/13-5/24. I took it after 5/24, like you, so we should be on the next list, God willing.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: kevin19 on 06-06-05 at 11:06 am
phew..

I guess we'll know sometime early next week, as they seem to make this a weekly affair.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: leitztozeiss on 06-06-05 at 11:57 am
Doh.  I dumped coffee on my registration forms.  I've been searching for the same forms at the OED site - can't find them or links to them anywhere, not even in the general forms page.

I was told by an OED person by phone that the forms were available online, and then I was transferred to another number and ultimately disconnected.

Anyone have the direct download links to these forms online?

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: yosar on 06-06-05 at 02:39 pm
Quote
I just found that I made a mistake in one of the repeat question from 2003. Regarding aroma therapy patent... non-elected/withdrawn claims and reissue. I recognized the question immediately and a voice from back of mind ask me to select (E) file reissue immediately broadening the claims along with previously non-elected/withdrawn claims. Wrong answer. Reason - i did not bother to apply my mind because this voice from my mind said "i remember the answer correctly, don't waste the time reading it".  "file immediately"...  answer with such words in it ... could never be a correct answer... unblemished stupidity.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
I couldn't locate this "aroma therapy patent" question in old exams.  Anyone have a specific location?  Thanks.


Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: fingers crossed on 06-06-05 at 03:32 pm
Quote
Doh.  I dumped coffee on my registration forms.  I've been searching for the same forms at the OED site - can't find them or links to them anywhere, not even in the general forms page.

I was told by an OED person by phone that the forms were available online, and then I was transferred to another number and ultimately disconnected.

Anyone have the direct download links to these forms online?

Thanks.



Here is the Oath: http://www.uspto.gov/web/forms/sb1209.pdf

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 06-06-05 at 03:41 pm
Quote
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I couldn't locate this "aroma therapy patent" question in old exams.  Anyone have a specific location?  Thanks.




You didn't look carefully.

Oct 2003 AM Question 16.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: sauced on 06-06-05 at 05:43 pm
Super happpy.  List came out and I am on it!   That test is a tough one I didnt think I would pass.   Good luck to everyone who is going to take it.  Concentrate on PCT, there are at least 10Qs.   Also, know the structure of review, i.e. appeals etc.    Lastly, you have to love the RCE and own the reissue, reexam and inventorship/assignment issues.    There are also a few dead and unwilling inventors.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 06-06-05 at 09:43 pm
http://www.wkmclaughlin.com/historic_grave2.htm
http://www.wkmclaughlin.com/historic_patent.htm
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: fingers crossed on 06-07-05 at 09:07 am
Quote
Doh.  I dumped coffee on my registration forms.  I've been searching for the same forms at the OED site - can't find them or links to them anywhere, not even in the general forms page.

I was told by an OED person by phone that the forms were available online, and then I was transferred to another number and ultimately disconnected.

Anyone have the direct download links to these forms online?

Thanks.


Here is the data sheet http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/roster/pto107adatasheet.pdf

print out a copy, cover or white out the "REINSTATEMENT" and photocopy to get a clean sheet.  The information is exactly the same and it is the same form number the OED sent.  Or if you are computer savy, edit out the "REINSTATEMENT" in Adobe Acrobat or Photoshop.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Change on 06-07-05 at 12:34 pm
Only 63/90 questions correct required to pass beginning on 6/9.

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/gcounsel/09jun2005.htm
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patentpending on 06-07-05 at 01:03 pm
Strange.....and to make the change so close to the date when it comes into effect....that's awful.  I guess it's not a huge deal, since you still need 70% to pass.  It mentions that the 90 questions come from a previous examination.  I would assume this includes those that are unpublished and from the computer-based exam.....90 repeats from old exams would make the exam a piece of cake!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 06-07-05 at 01:50 pm
Wow, if I failed the 5/30 exam, I now have something to look forward to...
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 06-07-05 at 02:48 pm
Seems to me that although they are testing using the revised version of the MPEP, any questions on the new version will not be scored since none of the revised material has appeared on previous exams.

If that's the case, it would mean that it's not necessary to remember the new material - just know how to find the old stuff in the new version.

Does this sound right or am I missing something?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 06-07-05 at 03:18 pm
Another thought to further my ramblings above, it would also seem logical that any questions chosen from previous exams would not be based on material that has changed from one version of the MPEP to the next.  Otherwise a response that was correct based on the old version, would be incorrect based on the newer version.

hmm......
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 06-07-05 at 04:41 pm
Quote
Only 63/90 questions correct required to pass beginning on 6/9.

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/gcounsel/09jun2005.htm


1. all 90 questions have already been in use  :--- so what happened to Rev. 2 material

2. do only 63 right and you are through :--- great, why didn't they think of it when I was taking the exam.

I believe, the pass rate will shoot up to 80% from 40%.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: melwrc on 06-07-05 at 05:12 pm
It still takes 70% to pass, so I don't think that it will make the pass rate go up any more than it already has with the new test format.  
One problem with experimental questions that aren't scored is that they can hurt you.  10 really hard or confusing questions can end up being a time suck, in addition to making a nervous test taker get more concerned.  Because they aren't scored, the PTO might also be more likely to take more risks as to the difficulty level.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 06-07-05 at 06:40 pm
Quote
It still takes 70% to pass, so I don't think that it will make the pass rate go up any more than it already has with the new test format.  
One problem with experimental questions that aren't scored is that they can hurt you.  10 really hard or confusing questions can end up being a time suck, in addition to making a nervous test taker get more concerned.  Because they aren't scored, the PTO might also be more likely to take more risks as to the difficulty level.


it is not the same 70%. consider this scenario:

you have total 70 (out of 100) correct. But, out of these 70 correct answers, 10 question are experimental thus not graded (lets say you marked all of them correct). You were passing per old standards but not passing now.

Before --------- 70 correct = guranteed pass
After ----------- 73 correct = guranteed pass (because 10 correct answers could potentially came from so called 10 experimental questions )

On the upside

Before ---------- Fail < 70
After ------------ Fail < 63   (assuming none of the correct question belongs to experimental category)


Thanks PTO for turning a relatively simple grading/exam into confusing one.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 06-07-05 at 07:25 pm
Quote

it is not the same 70%. consider this scenario:

you have total 70 (out of 100) correct. But, out of these 70 correct answers, 10 question are experimental thus not graded (lets say you marked all of them correct). You were passing per old standards but not passing now.



I agree with Melwrc - it is 70%. In your example, you're taking 10 experimental questions out of 70 questions answered right. That's not what the PTO is doing - at least from what I gathered when I skimmed their post. In your example, out of 100 questions, they eliminate 10 from the TOTAL pool -- thus, only 90 are graded. You need 70% correct, which in this scenario is 63 questions. The threshold is still 70%.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 06-07-05 at 07:27 pm
Oops... I just now understood what you meant, Patento. Good point.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Eliz on 06-07-05 at 08:51 pm
Hello everyone--
I am new to the forum and wanted to get some unbiased opinions on my situation.  I have been studying for the patent bar using the patbar.com study materials (and I had also taken both a patent law and a patent drafting course prior to that).  For those of you not familiar with the program, there is a "core curriculum" review manual that goes through the entire MPEP in good detail, and then a "last minute" curriculum ("last minute" in quotations because it is nearly 800 pages long).  I am at the point where I have completed the core curriculum, doing prior exam problems along the way.  I took a prior exam (using software simulating the Prometric exam) to guage where I was at, and got 90%, with half an hour to spare.  It was the Oct '01 exam.  

My question to you all is this: Is it worth trudging through the "last minute" review?  (assuming I take the other practice exams and get comparable results).  It would take about 6 weeks for me to get through it on my current schedule.  For people who passed the exam, what kind of scores were you getting on the prior exams going into the actual exam?  On the one hand, I would love to have some free time this summer, but on the other, I will be in school full time in the fall, and it would be really lousy to have to retake the exam.

I also had one logistical question about the exam.  On the actual test, is it possible to open two MPEP windows at once?  i.e. so you could have the rules appendix open the whole time and use a second window to look at other sections of the MPEP?  

Thanks for any opinions/advice that anyone has to offer!

Elizabeth
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: clarklawyer on 06-08-05 at 03:12 am
Now that the test is being given all the time instead of twice
a year, taking the exam before you are absolutely ready just
risks a bit of money.  Make the decision on that basis.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: melwrc on 06-08-05 at 05:39 am
Don't bother with anything other than old test questions and a pdf of the MPEP in your last week.  My last 3 days before the test consisted of taking the 3 most recent written exams in a simulated manner, one 1/2 test session at a time.  After each session, I went over every question that I got wrong or had marked as not being certain of the answer during the test.  I was testing between 80 and 95%.  Because there are so many oct 2003 repeats, I recommend that it be your last test.  Most of the repeats that I had were the harder ones from oct 2003.

You only get one MPEP window.  The general index is a waste of time for an electronic MPEP.  You should know the right chapter for any given question, so drop the chapter down and use that index instead of the general one.

As for the new testing scheme, I'm guessing the 10 "beta" questions will score lower on average than the 90 pool questions.  There might be the unfortunate test taker that gets all 10 betas correct while missing 28 graded ones, but it's more likely that someone will miss all 10 betas and get 63 graded ones right.  Of course this is just a guess on my part, and the PTO can be hard to predict.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 06-08-05 at 08:50 am
Seems to me those beta questions put exam takers at a disadvantage for reasons already cited.  IMHO a correct answer to the beta question should be counted since there is no penalty for answering incorrectly.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Eliz on 06-08-05 at 09:48 am
I see the points people are making about possible negative effects on the scores, but (and maybe I'm being overly optimistic here) I think it may really be to the benefit of the exam-takers.  i.e. the last published exam is from October 2003, less than 2 years ago.  Yes, they will have within that pool a number of questions that have been "psychometrically analyzed" (whatever that means--does anyone know how the PTO does that and how many test-takers have to be given a certain question before they can get reliable stats?), but that pool is going to be somewhat limited.  I think we might start seeing more repeats from the published exams, since they have to have 90 questions on each exam that have been tested previously, and since we all know that they are not giving identical exams to everyone, the pool has to be at least somewhat larger than that.  Just a thought...like I said it might be overly optimistic, and we won't really know anything until people start taking the exam.  

On an unrelated note, how long did it take people to hear back from OED after sending in the application for registration?  It has only been about 2 weeks for me (I am category A).  They have charged my credit card--does that mean anything?  I am just anxious about it...paranoid that I may have omitted something and will have to reapply, even though I triple checked it all before I sent it in.  

Thanks,
Eliz
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wiscagent on 06-08-05 at 10:00 am
One interesting aspect to reducing the number of scored questions from 100 to 90 is the statistical aspect; reducing “n” makes the measure less precise.

Some posters noted that the 10 beta questions will be different that the 90 questions that are scored.  That’s probably true; but whether they are more difficult or would take a long time for a particular individual taking the test ... there’s no way to know.

What we can estimate is the statistical aspect.  I set up a simple simulation ... there are 3 persons taking the exam: Peggy, Margaret, and Margie.  Peggy gets 69 out of 100 correct; Margaret gets 70 out of 100 correct, and Margie gets 71 out of 100 correct.  I randomly eliminated 10 questions from each test and counted how many correct answers remained.  I ran this simulation 25 times for each person.  Here are the results:

- Peggy passed 15 out of 25 times – even though she only had 69 of 100 correct.
- Margaret passed 17 out of 25 times – she would have passed the 100-question exam.
- Margie passed 23 out of 25 times – even though she had 71 out of 100 correct.

Collectively, they passed 55 out of 75 times, but based on the 100-question exam, they would have passed only 50 times (all of Margaret’s tests + all of Margie’s tests).  So overall the chances of passing are marginally improved with the 90-question test.

Nevertheless, in the simulation Margaret failed 8 times out of 25 even though she had 70/100, and Margie failed 2 times out of 25 even though she had 71/100.  

My conclusion ... if you are on the boarder line, KEEP STUDYING!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 06-08-05 at 10:47 am
Does anyone know whether it is possible to get copies of exams LATER than the Oct 2003 version published on the PTO site?  Do any of the Patent Bar Review services offer them for a fee?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 06-08-05 at 10:51 am
Never mind.... just realized that with the introduction of the computerized format there are no other paper exams.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: testanxiety on 06-08-05 at 12:01 pm
Anyone else experience the joy of trying to sit for the exam today?  I was informed by Prometric that because they are revising the exam today, the systems are down to USPTO test takers.  To say the least, I was a bit heated.  I was asked for my confirmation number and the Prometric rep. assured me that I would receive a call me in the next 2-3 business days with information regarding re-scheduling for the exam that I specifically studied for.  This, of course is pending authorization from the USPTO.

If you had your exam cancelled today (June 8), be sure to contact Prometric if you would prefer to re-schedule for the pre 8th edition, 2nd rev.  Good luck.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: testanxiety on 06-08-05 at 12:04 pm
If you had your exam cancelled today, June 8, be sure to contact Prometric if you would prefer to re-schedule for the pre 8th edition, 2nd rev.  Good luck.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 06-08-05 at 12:16 pm
Anyone have a guess (or an answer from the OED) as to when the next list is going to be posted? The suspense is killing me ....................!!!  ???
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: yosar on 06-08-05 at 01:24 pm
Quote
If you had your exam cancelled today, June 8, be sure to contact Prometric if you would prefer to re-schedule for the pre 8th edition, 2nd rev.  Good luck.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Question: I had exam scheduled today 6/8 with 8th ed R1 and it was canceled.  It is my impresssion there is no longer the option to reschedule R1.  The reason for the cancel was to bring up R2 version in preparation for 6/9 tests.   Thus it would appear there is no option for a  R1 version.  Do you have different information/contacts?  Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: testanxiety on 06-08-05 at 01:46 pm
I spoke with Crystal at the Prometric help line.  She did inform me that there was a "strong possibility" that those scheduled to take the exam today with MPEP 8th ed R1, would be able to take that same exam at a later date.  I then asked her to again confirm that I would likely be able to take the exam with the 8th ed R1 and the reply was, "yes, if the USPTO approves".  I suspect that Prometric would have two versions loaded simultaneously; however the earlier version would be available to only those whose exam was today canceled.  Therefore, it might be important for you to call Prometric and give them your confirmation number and phone number.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: cmiick on 06-08-05 at 03:32 pm
I took the Prometric exam in nov 2004 and had all types of problems with opening the MPEP, it froze the computer, it would not locate the correct numbers.  Does anyone know where I can access the computer software and practice opening up and using the MPEP in the form found during the test.  I am set to take the test in a month.
Cathleen
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Reissue This! on 06-08-05 at 05:01 pm
Quote
Never mind.... just realized that with the introduction of the computerized format there are no other paper exams.


Well, OED has published its most recent paper exams; there WILL be paper exams administered July 11-15.  Unfortunately, last year's rule changes suggest that OED is unlikely to release those tests.  See 37 CFR s 11.7(e). Also take a look at the comments that accompany those new rules, esp comments No. 31 & 39:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/com/sol/notices/69fr35428.pdf
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 06-09-05 at 09:34 am
Actually, my initial question referred to exams administered LATER than the Oct 2003 published exams (ie: 2004 paper exams) for purposes of studying now.  My understanding is that there are none.  However, if these do in fact exist and you know where they can be found, please post the link - I'm sure the board would be very appreciative.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest2 on 06-09-05 at 09:57 am
There are no paper tests from 2004.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 06-09-05 at 12:31 pm
Me: "Can you please tell me when you guys are planning to send out the next batch of patent bar results?"

OED: "Oh, they haven't given me that information as of yet."

ARHGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!  >:( This wait is unbearable!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: startled on 06-09-05 at 09:20 pm
Unfortunately, the current list contains those who took the test from May 13th to May 31.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 06-09-05 at 10:19 pm
Startled - are you sure? I (and some others) heard it covered from 5/13-5/24. OED confirmed it. Where did you hear it was through 5/31?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: waitingtobelisted on 06-10-05 at 07:05 am
Does anyone know how long it takes from receiving a passing score to be registered/listed as a patent agent?   From the day you send in your oath/dec.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 06-10-05 at 07:12 am
Quote
Does anyone know how long it takes from receiving a passing score to be registered/listed as a patent agent?   From the day you send in your oath/dec.


The date mentioned in the list + 1 to 2 weeks (normally).
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Spin on 06-10-05 at 08:05 am
I took the exam on May 31 and have not heard anything, I don't think that the Office included this date in the latest posting--that would be about the fastest anyone has ever got their results.  But who knows with my luck!  If anyone finds out for sure please post it.  Until then I'll keep my fingers crossed.    
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Spin on 06-10-05 at 08:16 am
Okay, I just got off the phone with OED and here is what they told me (for what that is worth).  A mailing just went out today for 5-25 to 5-29.  So the June 5 posting is only up to the 24.  And unfortunately for me the next posting will probably not cover the 31st either if it is based on today's mailing.  I might have to wait --- how much longer???  I can't take it, but I'm still in the ballgame.  Keeping my fingers and toes crossed.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 06-10-05 at 09:26 am
I can't take it either!!!!!!!!! Arghh. I took it on 5/30 and missed the cutoff date by 1 day. This is unbearable. Thanks for the info Spin.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 06-10-05 at 07:16 pm
man, only 5 days worth of results?

that sucks.

I'm post 5/29 too
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: dromero on 06-11-05 at 05:10 pm
I wanted to know if anyone would be good enough to provide some insight as to their own method of navigating the MPEP for the exam.  Specifically I'm trying to figure out the best way of determining when I should go to the rules and the laws rather than the MPEP chapters.  

I understand most information should be readily accessible in the MPEP but found that not everything can be found that easily.  For example when navigating for petitions I figured the topic would probably be in 700 but couldn't find it.  However I found it rather quickly in the rules.  I just want to avoid wasting time searching in either the rules/laws vs. the MPEP and wondered if you all had any helpful strategies in determining where you're going to start your navigation for a question that must be looked up.  Thanks.  

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 06-13-05 at 10:44 am
Anyone get his/her letter today?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Eliz on 06-14-05 at 06:45 am
Has anyone else been wondering whether the new 90/10 exam format is to allow them to do instant scoring?  i.e. if all the scored questions are old, it seems there's no reason they can't tell you whether you passed right away.  Anybody know if/when this might happen?  I am taking the exam July 22...would be great if it happened before then, but knowing OED....doubt it.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: GoneFission on 06-14-05 at 06:47 am
I got my letter today (the 14th) but I imagine it got here yesterday when I wasn't at work.  I took the test the 26th, in Worcester, MA and got the letter dated June 10th in my office in Cambridge, MA.

Good luck!

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 06-14-05 at 10:20 am
I took the exam on 6/1 in Burlington, MA.  No mail today, 6/14, in Newton, MA.

I'd imagine if I didn't pass I'd still get a letter?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: TN Jed on 06-14-05 at 10:53 am
I took it in Tennessee on 6/1.  I haven't gotten a letter yet.   Here's hoping for good news.  

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 06-14-05 at 10:56 am
The letters currently in the mail are for test dates 5/25-5/29 only. If you took it after 5/29, your letter has not yet been sent. How long will it take? Evidently forever!  ;D If someone would like to call the OED and ask, please post what they say. I think the lady that usually answers the phone doesn't like me.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patentpending on 06-15-05 at 06:25 am
The new list is out!

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/regprac29jul05.htm
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: malibuwakegirl on 06-15-05 at 06:43 am
Is anyone who took the test on or after 6/4 on the list?  I know the mailings were only 5/25-5/29 but I thought the posting might include more dates.  Congrats to those on the list!!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: hedgehog on 06-15-05 at 07:07 am
Congrats to those who passed. I took the exam on June 7 and am wondering when we will get the results. It seems to take about 2-3 weeks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: malibuwakegirl on 06-15-05 at 07:15 am
I just called OED. As we all suspected, today's posting only covers 5/25-5/29.   The next posting will likely be on the 21st and who knows what it will cover!  Hopefully more than 5  days!!  It's torture!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 06-15-05 at 07:42 am
It's funny, my stomach drops when I don't see my name on the list, even though I know it doesn't even cover my test date. Talk about anxiety.

Congrats to all that passed!  :D

Malibuwakegirl -- did OED tell you the 21st is the next (likely) post date? Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Spin on 06-15-05 at 08:07 am
I hear everyones pain.  I looked at the list today also knowing it would probably not cover may testing date, but still hopeful that my name would appear on the list, thus ending the waiting game.  I guess the next list will be the one.  It seems like we should get our letters before the list comes out, at least on the east cost.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: malibuwakegirl on 06-15-05 at 09:05 am
Newbie, OED did not tell me the 21st.  I am just making that guess based on prior postings.  Looks like Tuesday is the most common day they post on.  
I know what y'all mean.   My stomach dropped when I looked at the list too, even though I knew my test date wasn't going to be on it!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Spin on 06-15-05 at 10:42 am
I thought that I have seen people post that they received notification by e-mail as well as by regular mail.  Does anyone know if this is true?   :)
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 06-15-05 at 11:30 am
Quote
I thought that I have seen people post that they received notification by e-mail as well as by regular mail.  Does anyone know if this is true?   :)


never heard anyone getting notification via email.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: conehead on 06-16-05 at 02:48 am
Has anyone taken the exam using the Revision 2 material yet? If so, I'd appreciate any insight into the kinds of revised material they're testing, and whether it's being emphasized. I'm tring to decide when in the next 90 days to take the exam and how much extra study time I should spend on specific revisions. Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 06-16-05 at 07:45 am
OED has indicated that out of 100, 90 questions will be from same pre rev. 2 questions pool. 10 questions will be new but will not be graded. You will need only 63 marks to pass.

Considering this, it is useless to wait to see what will be on the exam post Rev. 2 switch.


Quote
Has anyone taken the exam using the Revision 2 material yet? If so, I'd appreciate any insight into the kinds of revised material they're testing, and whether it's being emphasized. I'm tring to decide when in the next 90 days to take the exam and how much extra study time I should spend on specific revisions. Thanks.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Bibi on 06-16-05 at 03:26 pm
I passed the exam in May and sent out the oath on June 3rd. Haven't received the registration # and did not find my name in the search patent agen/attorneys option in the OED website. Does it take that long? Should I wait or do I need to call?
Thanks
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 06-16-05 at 04:03 pm
First they wait for 6 weeks to receive comment from public regarding your moral character (for example: if you were in the list posted on may 17th, they will wait until July 1). If you have sent oath, money etc... in timely manner, you should receive the registration number usually in 2-3 weeks from that date.

Quote
I passed the exam in May and sent out the oath on June 3rd. Haven't received the registration # and did not find my name in the search patent agen/attorneys option in the OED website. Does it take that long? Should I wait or do I need to call?
Thanks

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Fingers Crossed on 06-16-05 at 04:15 pm
Quote
I passed the exam in May and sent out the oath on June 3rd. Haven't received the registration # and did not find my name in the search patent agen/attorneys option in the OED website. Does it take that long? Should I wait or do I need to call?
Thanks


Bibi,
The USPTO gives people about six weeks to send in negative moral or character information about you that could affect your eligibility to become a registered agent.  When you look at the list posted on the OED site, there are two dates, the date the list was posted on the website, (in parenthese and in black), and a later date (in blue) that you click on to get to the list of names.  The blue date is the final day others may submitt negative information about you to the USPTO.  If you sent in your address/company registration, fee and oath within the amount of time stated on your pass letter, (I think that was two weeks from date of letter) then you should have a registration number two weeks after the blue date.  For example, if you were on the list posted on the OED website on May 31st (black date), and you timely submitted your documents and fee, then you should have your registration number two weeks after July 11th (blue date).  This is all stated at the top of the list of names.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: ReIssue on 06-20-05 at 08:07 am
The "Notice of Results" letter I received from the PTO did not indicate that I needed to send in an oath or a fee.  

Is this something that is sent after you receive the pass letter?  

Am I missing something?

Thanks
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 06-20-05 at 08:23 am
Oath and datasheet forms were included in the "congratulation" letter sent to me.



Quote
The "Notice of Results" letter I received from the PTO did not indicate that I needed to send in an oath or a fee.  

Is this something that is sent after you receive the pass letter?  

Am I missing something?

Thanks

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: testtaker on 06-20-05 at 10:08 pm
I'm taking the exam tomorrow and couldn't find my admittance materials.  I was wondering if anyone would be kind enough to remind me what I'll need in order to take the exam.  

I know I'll need a picture ID and another form of ID such as credit card but couldn't remember if anything else was allowed in the room. I seem to recall nothing else was allowed but if anyone knows otherwise or just has some last minute advice I'd sure appreciate it.  

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: safin on 06-21-05 at 06:17 am
Testtaker:

According to USPTO:

"For admission to the examination, an applicant must bring a current, valid State or Federal government issued ID, such as a driver's license or passport, containing your photo and signature.  A single government issued ID wiht current photo and signature will suffice.  Your name in the government issued ID must be exactly as it appears on line 1b in the application . . .   You will be denied admission to the examinationif the name on the ID does not exactly match the name given on line 1b of the application, or if the government issued ID is not currently valid . . . No name changes will be permitted at the test center."

DO NOT BRING THE MPEP OR ANYTHING ELSE.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: malibuwakegirl on 06-21-05 at 07:17 am
Does anyone know if they have sent out a mailing?  It seems like we should be seeing a new posting today or tomorrow?  Anyone know what dates it will cover?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 06-21-05 at 07:40 am
malibuwakegirl -- i called the OED yesterday and asked when the next mailing would be. they gave me the standard "they haven't given me that information yet. there was a mailing that went out recently that covered .... oh, let's see ... 5/25 - 5/29."  of course what they tell each person seems to vary. feel free to call and let us know what they say!  ;D
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 06-21-05 at 07:50 am
THE LIST IS UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!  ;D HEHEHEHEHEHEH!!!

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/regprac05aug05.htm
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 06-21-05 at 08:08 am
Congrats to everyone in the list.

Did you notice, the lists are getting longer.  Almost 300-350 new practitioners every month.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: curious chick on 06-21-05 at 08:38 am
what dates does the new list cover????
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 06-21-05 at 09:01 am
Patento -

I'm thinking one reason may be that there is a rush to take the exam prior to the conversion to the MPEP rev 2.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: 2confused4words on 06-21-05 at 09:21 am
wow!  I just called OED and they said the new list covers 5/30-6/17.   That is really hard to believe.  So people who took the test Friday already have results?  That has to be a record for USPTO.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: kevin19 on 06-21-05 at 11:24 am
I just saw my name on the list too.  What a relief..

Congrats to everyone who passed.  Good luck to everyone scheduled to take it.  

This was well worth the effort.  Thanks to everyone on this forum who were gracious enough to share their experiences.  I think people's insights truly made a difference.

Now, just gotta pass the state bar..
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: oneluckyman on 06-21-05 at 12:18 pm
There must be a miracle at work here because I was one of the lucky ones on the list.  I honestly was not expecting it and was ready to not see my name on the list.  To those taking the exam in the future, here are some subject areas that were testing heavily on my exam:
PCT- majority of questions on the second half were PCT, including filing, priority, etc.
Appeal- around 8 questions
Interferences- 7 questions (know the entire process)

Those three subject areas incorporated the majority of the second part.  The first part was a rehash of old exam questions and basic subject matter.  If you do a lot of old exams, then you should do fine on the first part.  You will most likely not find more than 8 old exam questions on your entire exam because I am sure the pto quickly realized that reciting answers directly out of the mpep made the ability to search, and not actual knowledge, the only key to passing the exam.  The new exam questions were not that much different and looked familiar.  If you do the old exams (which is all I did the last 3 weeks before taking the exam) and learn the three subject areas talked about above, you are in good shape.  Finally, learn what is in each of the sections of the mpep (the index is not that helpful) and get used to searching text.  The faster you can search, the more time you have to check over that portion of the exam.

Good luck.  If you didn't pass, keep the faith.  A family friend took the test two times and he is now a senior partner at one of the biggest law firms on the west coast.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 06-21-05 at 01:08 pm
So today's list is definitely through June 17th???
Just want to confirm as I took it on Saturday the 18th and it seems odd that they wouldn't just finish the week but who knows???.Thanks!!!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: hedgehog on 06-21-05 at 01:19 pm
I too am one of the lucky ones. I took the exam on June 7th and thought that I did poorly. The whole exam had maybe 15 repeat questions. The first half was OK  and I had enough time to review my answers but the second half also consisted primarily of PCT and appeal questions and I was left with no time to even check my marked questions.  For some, questions it wasnt clear what was asked and the answers were even less clear: i.e subtle variations of eachother. I feel that the exam doesnt reflect my knowledge or skills.

Congratulations to those who passed  :D
and good luck on the next exam to those who didnt.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: 2confused4words on 06-21-05 at 01:20 pm
I honestly am at a loss.  I have made a 68 on this test twice and after taking the test a third time my name is not on the list.  I have not taken a review course because after I made a 68 the first time I figured I could just study more and I'd do fine.  Not so much!!  This last time I did every single old exam and consistently made 90's without even using the MPEP.  Craziness!!!  I really didn't want to pay $2500 for a review course when I was already so close but now I wish I had! I haven't gotten my score yet but if it's a 68 I 'm gonna die!!    :-/  So, anyway, if anyone else out there is in the same boat, hang in there! We'll get through this eventually!  Anyone have any recommendations for what review course is most helpful?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 06-21-05 at 02:03 pm
I am at a loss for words every time I hear someone say they get a certain score "without even using the MPEP." Folks, you need to be ultra proficient in the MPEP. You need to know THAT BOOK like the back of your hand. It's nice to know a lot of things so that at test time you don't need to look them up, but if you think you know a lot of material and you don't practice with the MPEP, you will probably fail. The computerized exam is in many ways a test to see how quickly you can look things up in the MPEP, not necessarily what you know off the top of your head. Some of the questions are so detailed, I'd be amazed if you knew the answer without looking it up.

If you didn't pass, 2confused, I recommend you take PLI (or Kayton) and learn the MPEP inside out. Again, it's nice to know things and it really helps during the test - don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that in my opinion, the test is just as much about your ability to FIND answers in the MPEP as it is a test of what you already know.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: 2confused4words on 06-21-05 at 02:13 pm
Thanks for the advice.  Part of my problem this last time was that the search function of the MPEP was frozen the whole test and I couldn't use it all.  I did a lot of browsing but I couldn't use search.  I told the test proctor and he just said he'd make a note of it.  I 'm not really sure what to think of that.   During the test I wasn't too worried about it because I felt like I found everything I needed to just by browsing.   But maybe not!!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: fingers crossed on 06-21-05 at 02:42 pm
Quote
I honestly am at a loss.  I have made a 68 on this test twice and after taking the test a third time my name is not on the list.  I have not taken a review course because after I made a 68 the first time I figured I could just study more and I'd do fine.  Not so much!!  This last time I did every single old exam and consistently made 90's without even using the MPEP.  Craziness!!!  I really didn't want to pay $2500 for a review course when I was already so close but now I wish I had! I haven't gotten my score yet but if it's a 68 I 'm gonna die!!    :-/  So, anyway, if anyone else out there is in the same boat, hang in there! We'll get through this eventually!  Anyone have any recommendations for what review course is most helpful?


2confused4words,
Sorry to hear about your plight.  Is it possible that your exam date it not covered on the current list, despite what the OED receptionist said?  As for my studying, I borrowed a friend's old PLI courseware (2001) and bought the exam simulator software from Patent Education Series.  I read through the courseware to get the basics and used the software to get familiar with the exam questions.  You could probably purchase a used video course on Ebay for significantly less money.  My friend took both the Kayton and PLI courses and said that PLI was much better for passing the exam.  There are two free resources, www.openipsource.com and www.upstartraising.com/patentbar/ that are very good, especially the latter.  I also practiced looking up answers (even to questions I answered correctly) in an electronic version of the MPEP (saved as individual chapters) using Adobe Acrobat version 5.0.  Also, there is another thread titled "a sample from the pool of questions" that may list questions you did not have on your exam.  It has been said before, but being able to regurgitate answers will not help you, I had several questions that I thought were repeats, but upon closer reading were different, thus, you need to know why the answer is correct.  Lastly, if by chance you did not pass, (knock on wood) I would go to the USPTO to review the incorrectly answered questions (section XI.A of the general requirements bulletin).  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: fingers crossed on 06-21-05 at 02:55 pm
Quote
Thanks for the advice.  Part of my problem this last time was that the search function of the MPEP was frozen the whole test and I couldn't use it all.  I did a lot of browsing but I couldn't use search.  I told the test proctor and he just said he'd make a note of it.  I 'm not really sure what to think of that.   During the test I wasn't too worried about it because I felt like I found everything I needed to just by browsing.   But maybe not!!


I agree with Anonymous1 that being able to find specifics in the MPEP is the key to passing.  Other people have posted that if they have problems with the MPEP, the testing center gives them the option to move to a different computer or reschedule their exam.  If it happens again, insist on rescheduling.  I relied heavily on the find feature.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: kevin19 on 06-21-05 at 03:43 pm
I actually had a problem with my MPEP.  The search function would freeze the system.  I complained about it and they put me at a different station.  I lost the time (thankfully I discovered the problem on the first question), but I could not have passed without extensive use of the search function.  The MPEP is useless without it, and there's no way anyone can pass this without using the MPEP.

I bought the PLI homestudy course.  I think it was could to get me familiar with the basic concepts, but I had to read every chapter of the MPEP to get myself in a position to do well on the practice exams.  

A note about the practice exams - you have to use them as a learning tool.  Once you are familiar with the concepts, the practice exams help you hone your skills.  Relying on rote memorization on the answers doesn't help.  This is where the MPEP comes in - look up even if you know the answer already.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: TN Jed on 06-21-05 at 09:10 pm
I'm on the list, and I really want to say thanks to everyone who contributed here about what questions they had seen recently.  I took the BarBri course.  While it may seem rudimentary to some, I had no prior patent experience and knew absolutely nothing before I started studying BarBri.  I couldn't have passed without it.

I have to emphasize what has been said here before.  The best way to prepare is get the old exams (especially 1999-2003 from the PTO website), go through them, and be sure you understand not only why the correct answers are right, but also why the wrong answers are wrong.   Don't memorize, but go over it until you understand it.  

When I took the exam (on June 1), I recognized about 20 questions from exams dating back to 1999; however, for at least 10 of those questions, the PTO altered a fact or question very slightly which resulted in a different answer being the correct one.

For me, time was the major issue.  I had 26 seconds remaining in the first half, and only had 4 seconds left in the second half.  No time to go back and review.  Recognizing fact patterns from prior exams helped me cruise through those questions, leaving me more time for those I hadn't seen before.

Congratulations to those who passed, and for those who didn't, hang in there.  Do it again until you get past it.  You are smart enough to have the background necessary to sit for the exam; you have what it takes to pass this.  Read what others have posted here for suggestions, take it to heart, and study study study.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: testtaker on 06-21-05 at 09:16 pm
2 confused,

I took the test today and I used the search quite a bit.  To all scheduled to take it I agree with these last few messages, you MUST know the MPEP and you MUST know how to search the electronic MPEP quickly.

I found myself checking myself with a quick search even for stuff I was 90% sure about.  Two months ago I was planning on taking this exam hoping to be able to answer at least half the questions off the top of my head.  There's no way I could've done that.  

I took the Kayton course and got the examware that they've developed.  It has a searchable MPEP which was a HUGE benefit in practicing electronic searching of the MPEP.  I can't overstate how much it prepared me for today.  I also attended the in class course review which I found to be really great as well.  If all goes well and I pass I'll be selling my course review on ebay soon.  I also purchased the videotapes from Kayton (my company paid for all this stuff) so that will be included. (this isn't an ad, really)  

To recap my test: 1st half, just like everyone else, old questions, old hat, easy stuff.  2nd half was like a punch in the face (appeals including PCT appeals, PCT, interference and 102(e))

One last consideration as I walked out of my exam, what about those beta questions?  Hmmm...
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: 2confused4words on 06-22-05 at 08:47 am
Hey!  Thanks so much to everyone's helpful comments.  You guys are great!   I think I indeed made the critical error of "memorizing" past questions.  I didn't realize I did that.  I always read the full answer and looked at the MPEP sections but probably without enough focus.  There were lots of things I didn't "waste" time looking up because I thought I knew the answer right off. Big mistake!!   I now know also to have them move me if my computer freezes when I do the "find/search" key.  Thanks!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Studying_hard on 06-22-05 at 08:55 am
Quote

2confused4words,
 Also, there is another thread titled "a sample from the pool of questions" that may list questions you did not have on your exam.


Where can we find this thread?

Thanks!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: fingers crossed on 06-22-05 at 09:18 am
Quote

Where can we find this thread?

Thanks!


At the top of the web page, right above the first messge are four indented folders.  Run your mouse over "Becoming a Patent Agent/Lawyer" and it should change color and become a hyperlink, click on it and it will take you to all the threads in the folder.  There are several pages of threads in this folder, "a sample from the pool of questions" is on the second page.  Or type in this web address: http://www.intelproplaw.com/Forum/Forum.cgi?board=patent_agents;action=messageindex;start=25 The order of the threads change with the date of the replies.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: 2dogmum on 06-22-05 at 09:28 am
Quote

2confused4words,
Sorry to hear about your plight.  Is it possible that your exam date it not covered on the current list, despite what the OED receptionist said?  As for my studying, I borrowed a friend's old PLI courseware (2001) and bought the exam simulator software from Patent Education Series.  I read through the courseware to get the basics and used the software to get familiar with the exam questions.  You could probably purchase a used video course on Ebay for significantly less money.  My friend took both the Kayton and PLI courses and said that PLI was much better for passing the exam.  There are two free resources, www.openipsource.com and www.upstartraising.com/patentbar/ that are very good, especially the latter.  I also practiced looking up answers (even to questions I answered correctly) in an electronic version of the MPEP (saved as individual chapters) using Adobe Acrobat version 5.0.  Also, there is another thread titled "a sample from the pool of questions" that may list questions you did not have on your exam.  It has been said before, but being able to regurgitate answers will not help you, I had several questions that I thought were repeats, but upon closer reading were different, thus, you need to know why the answer is correct.  Lastly, if by chance you did not pass, (knock on wood) I would go to the USPTO to review the incorrectly answered questions (section XI.A of the general requirements bulletin).  


I can sympathize--I've taken the PTO exam twice and gotten a 68 both times.  I take it again tomorrow.  

As for prep courses, I would encourage you to save your money and study directly from the MPEP.  I know it sucks, but that is the only way you will know the details, and where to find them.  I took Kayton, and another friend of mine did, too, and we both failed.  It is a great overview but that is NOT what the PTO tests.  As is true for 2confused4words, I can score over 80% on old exams, and fully understand WHY, but my electronic version was nothing like the old exams.  I would say 75% of my questions were from obscure passages (including chapter 1000, and a question about using the Search Room at the PTO) and my computer also locked up when I tried to "find" anything.  I am generally an optimistic person, but in this case I honestly think it is the luck of the draw.  We are not idiots, and we are not used to failing exams.  (I graduated at the top of my law school and have a PhD--clearly by now I should have been able to figure out how to take a test or two).  

On my electronic exam I noticed several of my questions were from the MPEP verbatim, but for a single word change.  That means you MUST look up questions.  If the computer won't let you look up questions, there is no way to pass the exam.
My fingers are crossed for tomorrow, and for all of you who will still be studying.    
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: one lucky guy on 06-23-05 at 03:50 am
To summarize:

1) Know the MPEP sections and what kinds of information are contained in those sections like the back of your hand.

2) Know: PCT, Appeal, Interferences, 102(e)

3) Do not just memorize old exam questions.  Review the answer provided and figure out why the correct answer was correct AND why the wrong answers were wrong.

4) Learn how to electronically search the MPEP and try to simulate testing conditions as closely as possible, i.e. use a computer from the 80's, screen size 15", have your friends coughing and sneezing next to you, sit in an uncomfortable chair, do not leave the room for 3 hours, and download a virus that locks up your MPEP every other search.

Remember, the new format is not testing whether or not you are a good prosecutor/examiner, and it is not really testing whether you have the ability to become a good prosecutor/examiner, rather, the patent bar is testing whether you can memorize a certain amount of facts and be able to quickly search for the stuff you dont know.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 06-23-05 at 06:05 am
I do not understand the disparity between testing centers. Surely if you cannot use the search function, your chances of passing are greatly lowered. The center I went to was very high-tech. The newest computers, decent monitors, earphones to block out noise, and relatively quiet. Search function and MPEP scrolling worked better at the testing center than on any of the computers I practiced with. You MUST find a center where the technology is not a problem, or you are really doing yourself a disservice. If there's not a decent test center near you, well ... that sucks.  :-/
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Ron on 06-23-05 at 06:41 am
Speaking of Test Centers.....
I plan on taking the Test in either the Fairfax, VA or the Richmond VA centers...anyone know which has better equipment?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Chicken_dude on 06-23-05 at 07:09 am
Quote

I can sympathize--I've taken the PTO exam twice and gotten a 68 both times.  I take it again tomorrow.  

As for prep courses, I would encourage you to save your money and study directly from the MPEP.  I know it sucks, but that is the only way you will know the details, and where to find them.  I took Kayton, and another friend of mine did, too, and we both failed.  It is a great overview but that is NOT what the PTO tests.    


I have to disagree. I used the BarBri course. Its clear their instructors and course designers go through the old exams and then teach the principles of the MPEP where the questions are the heaviest.

I tried studying with the MPEP first and frankly its not practical. There are chapters alone that are hundreds of pages. Some small sections of some chapters are tested heavily and others never touched. There is no way to discern the principles without real guidance.

I passed in May. I am not a lawyer or a law student. I didn't crack the MPEP on about half the questions because at least half are questions where general principles will get you the right answer and discern wrong ones as well.

Chicken Dude
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Studying_hard on 06-23-05 at 08:44 am
Has anyone who took the exam in June, received a letter yet?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: kevin19 on 06-23-05 at 10:55 am
I took the exam June 1.  Got my letter yesterday.

To me, it seemed that studying straight from the MPEP without having some sort of basic understanding for the material was very difficult.  Two reasons:

Earlier chapters make references to concepts in later chapters.

The MPEP is a monstrous volume.  There is so much information in there and it's hard for someone to pick out what is most important and what are minor details.

I commented earlier that I had taken PLI homestudy due to my schedule.  I think it was good to satisfy the above concerns.  John White, the lecturer for PLI, is ridiculously dry.  His lecture style is very passive and it took a great deal of independent effort to fill the gaps and make everything fit together.

I'm taking BarBri for the state bar and I like it a lot.  The BarBri system as a whole is more engaging.  This sort of active learning allows for better retention of information.  I don't know if this is how their patent bar material is conducted, but I would assume so.  If I were to do it again (which, thankfully, I'm not), I would probably go with the Barbri course.



Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Studying_hard on 06-23-05 at 02:44 pm
I just received my letter (whew!!  I just couldn't bear looking at the list on-line).

I'd like to offer this advice for first time test takers:
1) As others have suggested, use the tutorial time to make up an answer sheet: 50 questions, ABCDE.  For each question, you will then have the option to eliminate answers on your handwritten sheet before making a choice on computer.
2) Open the MPEP on EVERY question, first off.  I found that often it took 2 clicks to get it to open.  Save valuable seconds!
3) The open MPEP window can be moved around on the screen, so that each choice is visible while the MPEP is open.
4) The test version of the MPEP has a different search engine than Abobe Acrobat.  The test version is slow.  You must click Find. Then to invoke find again, there's a DIFFERENT button...not simply hitting Enter.  
5) When you've finished the Tutorial and indicate so, the test pops up IMMEDIATELY (unlike Upstart Raising sample exams, no warning in the test).
6) When you come to break time (lunch), DO  NOT hit the key (inadvertently) that says something like END...Just let the computer clock run (for break) and make sure you're back in time for 2nd part.  
7) Get back early enough to draw up another answer sheet 1-50, ABCDE.  When you click the End Break button, the exam pops up...no warning screen.

I found my exam to be highly time pressured...My AM part was much more difficult than others have reported.  I had studied extensively, including doing each exam 2000-2003 , and 2001-2003 twice or more (last time via computer).

As others indicate, obscurity has become the underlying theme of the exam, rather than knowledge of patent law. I believe it is very good to have the background that a course gives you, but unfortunately, unless one of the courses has developed a methodology to deal with obscurity, those questions that are involve obscure material require speed look-up.

Thanks to all for your good guidance in preparing for this incredible hurdle of an exam!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Eliz on 06-23-05 at 07:22 pm
A couple of questions for studying_hard (or anyone else):
 
A.  With regards to your point number (2), do you mean that you have to RE-open the MPEP for every question?  What a PITA.  
B.  Can you clarify what you mean about the "find" function for those of us who have yet to take the test?  i.e. can you use cntrl-g to find again?  The version of Acrobat I am using (5.1, I think, which I was told is closest to the actual exam version) does not find again just by hitting enter.  
C.  Also, how slow is the search function?  When taking practice exams I sometimes search e.g. chapter 2100, and even though it is a long chapter it only takes a few seconds to find even if what I'm looking for is at the end of the chapter.  
D.  How long do they give you for lunch?  
E.  studying_hard didn't address this, but I am wondering whether they give you a pen or a pencil to use with your scrap paper (I assume you can't bring in your own writing instrument).  I am probably the only one who cares, but writing with a pencil really annoys me, and if they only give out pencils, I should probably start practicing with one now so I'm not totally irritated by it the day of the exam.  

Thanks in advance to anyone who answers!
Elizabeth
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: kevin19 on 06-23-05 at 08:10 pm
Quote
A couple of questions for studying_hard (or anyone else):
  
A.  With regards to your point number (2), do you mean that you have to RE-open the MPEP for every question?  What a PITA.  
B.  Can you clarify what you mean about the "find" function for those of us who have yet to take the test?  i.e. can you use cntrl-g to find again?  The version of Acrobat I am using (5.1, I think, which I was told is closest to the actual exam version) does not find again just by hitting enter.  
C.  Also, how slow is the search function?  When taking practice exams I sometimes search e.g. chapter 2100, and even though it is a long chapter it only takes a few seconds to find even if what I'm looking for is at the end of the chapter.  
D.  How long do they give you for lunch?  
E.  studying_hard didn't address this, but I am wondering whether they give you a pen or a pencil to use with your scrap paper (I assume you can't bring in your own writing instrument).  I am probably the only one who cares, but writing with a pencil really annoys me, and if they only give out pencils, I should probably start practicing with one now so I'm not totally irritated by it the day of the exam.  

Thanks in advance to anyone who answers!
Elizabeth



A. Gotta re-open MPEP for every question.  Luckily, if you close MPEP and then re-open on the same question, MPEP opens to where you left off.
B, C. I don't think you can control-g to find again.  I found the find function similar, but not the same as in Acrobat 5.  MPEP find is definitely slower, but it's not that bad.  What I found especially annoying is that you have to resize the MPEP window a lot to make the text readable.  Especially on a low refresh monitor (you should lower refresh on your home computer monitor for full Prometric effect!  No seriously, this will get you used to staring at a crap screen for 6 hours.  Your eyes will be fatigued and it will affect your concentration.  Bring eye drops, but keep it in your pocket.)
D. Lunch is an hour.  I went outside, walked around, used the entire time.  Ate the lunch that I brought.  Stared at far away places to try to relax my eyes from all that strain.
E. Prometric supplied me with pencils.  Didn't ask for a pen, so I don't nkow if they're available. You get one scratch paper booklet at a time.

BTW: The locker number you have will be your computer station number.  Just in case you're superstitious like that.

Hmm, while I'm at it I'll throw in a few more insights:

I found that I had enough time on both sections...at least 1 to 1.5 hours on each section to review all my answers.  Basically I bookmarked anything I couldn't find within a few minutes.  After my first run through of each of the 50 questions, I went to the bathroom for a couple minutes.  Allowed myself to relax a little bit.  Coming back to the test, I was able to find answer to most, if not all, of my bookmarked questions.

Having read this site, I expected that the first half would be easier than the second.  I tried to max out on the first half, leaving more room for error on those PCT, Appeal and Interference questions on the second half.

Work deliberately but at a good pace.  Don't get caught up on a question your first time through.  You've put too much effort into this preparation process to not read the question carefully.  IMHO, if you have put in the time to prepare, 3 hours is more than enough time to do 50 questions on an open book exam.  So don't rush, and don't panic.  And don't study the night before and morning of.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 06-23-05 at 08:14 pm
Quote
A couple of questions for studying_hard (or anyone else):
  
A.  With regards to your point number (2), do you mean that you have to RE-open the MPEP for every question?  What a PITA.  
B.  Can you clarify what you mean about the "find" function for those of us who have yet to take the test?  i.e. can you use cntrl-g to find again?  The version of Acrobat I am using (5.1, I think, which I was told is closest to the actual exam version) does not find again just by hitting enter.  
C.  Also, how slow is the search function?  When taking practice exams I sometimes search e.g. chapter 2100, and even though it is a long chapter it only takes a few seconds to find even if what I'm looking for is at the end of the chapter.  
D.  How long do they give you for lunch?  
E.  studying_hard didn't address this, but I am wondering whether they give you a pen or a pencil to use with your scrap paper (I assume you can't bring in your own writing instrument).  I am probably the only one who cares, but writing with a pencil really annoys me, and if they only give out pencils, I should probably start practicing with one now so I'm not totally irritated by it the day of the exam.  

Thanks in advance to anyone who answers!
Elizabeth


Find function is same as Acrobat 5 version. Find-Next is also there. On my machine, the find was really fast.

Regarding lunch; this is how it works - start the test, finish first part anytime within 3 hrs, take a break/go for lunch (I guess max 1 hrs) /or start the next section right away.

paper and pencils (so sharpened you can kill someone with it) will be provided. they don't allow anything (analog watch ok) , not even wallet. I am not sure if they can replace pencils with ballpen but they can't kill you for asking ...

No relationship to locker number to station number in San Jose.

Just a note: if you are well prepared and don't read too slow, you should be done in roughly 1.5 -2 hrs in first section. Second requires too many MPEP searches and the questions have long bodies... don't spend too much time on the questions you don't understand in first two readings. Mark them for later review.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Studying_hard on 06-23-05 at 09:57 pm
Eliz,
As others have said -
No control-G as far as I know...separate Find Next button. You'll get used to it, but I kept on hitting Enter, expecting Find  Next to work (as in Acrobat 5.0).

Every person's exam is different, even on the same day.  My exam was significantly different than some else who described his exam taken same day.  Mine was, IMHO, very tough for AM as well as PM...only about 10 repeats in entire exam overall.  (I wish my AM were as smooth going as some experienced!)

I was not offered a pen.

My locker had no relationship to the desk I sat at.

Computer screen in my facility was ok...this varies with test location.

Here's hoping you only have to take it once!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: listedwaiting on 06-24-05 at 07:08 am
I was sitting here wondering how long it took to be listed as a patent agent, so I checked a few names on the pass list to see if they appear, the first names to appear on the list as an agent were the names from the first pass list of this year.    So those who passed in January are now on the list using the search feature.     I am hoping it does not take this long to receive a agent #, does anyone know?  

It looks like 5 months is the time it takes to appear on the list when you are searching for an agent
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 06-24-05 at 07:27 am
Quote
I was sitting here wondering how long it took to be listed as a patent agent, so I checked a few names on the pass list to see if they appear, the first names to appear on the list as an agent were the names from the first pass list of this year.    So those who passed in January are now on the list using the search feature.     I am hoping it does not take this long to receive a agent #, does anyone know?  

It looks like 5 months is the time it takes to appear on the list when you are searching for an agent


USPTO spends millions every year on IT. Yet, such a rudimentary process takes 5 months. Its a shame.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: melwrc on 06-24-05 at 02:15 pm
You should show up in the agent search about 2 weeks from the date of your pass list (not the day you pass).
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: fingers crossed on 06-28-05 at 08:44 am
Quote
You should show up in the agent search about 2 weeks from the date of your pass list (not the day you pass).


It looks like USPTO might be speeding up the process.  I was on the May 10th/June 24th pass list, and I found my registration number using the advanced attorney/agent search on the OED section of the website.  

Also, a new list was posted this morning.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 06-28-05 at 10:13 am
pretty short list today. Is new system taking its toll?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Eliz on 06-28-05 at 11:26 am
Quote
pretty short list today. Is new system taking its toll?


Let's hope that it's more because there was a rush of people trying to take the exam before the changes went into effect...
Also, if you look back at some of the lists posted in May (before the changes took effect), there are some pretty short ones there as well.  From what I have heard on this board, OED is not necessarily the most consistent about the length of time that these lists cover, so maybe the most recent one just doesn't cover very many days.  That combined with the fact that probably fewer people are taking the exam now than were taking it in May might result in such a short list...so it's not necessarily because fewer people are passing.  
Of course, there's not really any way of knowing for sure until some sort of stats are released...
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: 2confused4words on 06-28-05 at 02:23 pm
Good luck 2dogmum ....and thanks for the words of encouragement!  You made me feel better.  
Now check this out.....I still have not gotten my letter.  So I called the USPTO today and asked them about it.  They said they have no record that  I even took the test on June 4th.  And  no results !!  How crazy is that?!   They are researching my file and are going to call me tomorrow but as of right now they have no idea why my test generated no score or results.   So, I am keepiing my fingers crossed---maybe I passed after all. :-/
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Steven Oppenheimer on 06-30-05 at 05:50 pm
Quote
Speaking of Test Centers.....
I plan on taking the Test in either the Fairfax, VA or the Richmond VA centers...anyone know which has better equipment?


I took the test at the Fairfax Center today (June 30).  The chair was very comfortable, and the staff was very nice.  The computer did not lock up when searching.  However, the display monitor stunk, but I gather that's a problem at all the centers.  (15", low resolution, low refresh rate.)

I know this has been asked before, but does anyone have any idea how long it will take before I see my test results posted, or receive them by mail?

Steve O.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: rcyang on 07-01-05 at 05:58 am
The OED must be getting more and more efficient.  I took the exam on 6/24 and I was on the 6/28 pass list.  I got the pass letter 2 days after that.

Good luck to everyone!
Robert
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: TakingIt on 07-01-05 at 11:23 am
1.  Would you or anyone who recently passed be willing to share your MS Word/ PDF notes, outlines, flashcards, etc on the newly heavily tested areas, such as PCT, Appeals, Interferences, Petitions, etc?

2.  Since old questions don't help in this testable area, I would appreciate any suggestions on how best to study the foregoing, particularly in view of how dry our dear MPEP really is!   :-/

3.  Finally, have any of you seen going back to 1999 exams helpful?  I'm taking it in a week and I need to determine whether to stop at 2000 and read more or to go back to 1999.

4.  Did anyone see any biotech in recent months?

I would greatly appreciate your help!     ;D
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Steven Oppenheimer on 07-01-05 at 01:16 pm
Quote
1.  Would you or anyone who recently passed be willing to share your MS Word/ PDF notes, outlines, flashcards, etc on the newly heavily tested areas, such as PCT, Appeals, Interferences, Petitions, etc?

2.  Since old questions don't help in this testable area, I would appreciate any suggestions on how best to study the foregoing, particularly in view of how dry our dear MPEP really is!   :-/

3.  Finally, have any of you seen going back to 1999 exams helpful?  I'm taking it in a week and I need to determine whether to stop at 2000 and read more or to go back to 1999.

4.  Did anyone see any biotech in recent months?

I would greatly appreciate your help!     ;D


1.  I just took the test this week, so I think I'll hold onto my notes for a while.... :)

2.  Visit www.openipsource.com. They have multiple free resources that will help, including:
-- A "Reader's Digest" version of the MPEP, highlighting essential points.  (It still runs about 300 pages.)
-- Old test questions organized by categories, so you can focus on the topics of concern to you.

3.  I would also try to read the actual sections of the MPEP that you are most concerned with.  My own feeling is that I'd give 50% odds on my having passed the test;  if I didn't, I suspect it would be because I spent a little too much time searching, when I did not know where to find things.  So I would not only read the MPEP, I would outline it.  Tedious, but probably worth the time.

4.  Not sure about the 1999 exams.  I'd encourage you to use the openip test questions, as indicated above.

5.  I did not notice a whole lot of biotech.  In fact, I'm not sure if I saw even one such question.  But they do test heavily on some of the other areas you mention, especially PCT (particularly priority dates, PCT and foreign priority, and PCT and 102(e) dates), appeals, petitions, and also when to use reissue vs. when to use certificate of correction.  (Several questions on the latter.)

Steve O.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Eliz on 07-01-05 at 01:35 pm
IMO, the problem with the 1999 exams is going to be that there will be outdated questions on them...so unless you have a version where someone has weeded those out for you, you may spend a lot of time trying to figure out which Qs are still valid.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: cstorm on 07-01-05 at 04:57 pm
Quote
I'd like to offer this advice for first time test takers:
1) As others have suggested, use the tutorial time to make up an answer sheet: 50 questions, ABCDE.  For each question, you will then have the option to eliminate answers on your handwritten sheet before making a choice on computer.
7) Get back early enough to draw up another answer sheet 1-50, ABCDE.  When you click the End Break button, the exam pops up...no warning screen.


The General Requirements Bulletin for Admission to the Examination states that "Cheating may include, but is not limited to, copying or photographing questions or answers, recording answers elsewhere than on the computer, bringing notes into the testing area, leaving the testing area and checking notes located elsewhere before returning to the testing area."

Would writing down ABCDE and then crossing off the answer choices be considered cheating?  I've found the method very useful when doing practice tests (considerable boost in scoring), but I'd hate to get thrown out of the exam because of it.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Studying_hard on 07-02-05 at 09:57 am
Quote

The General Requirements Bulletin for Admission to the Examination states that "Cheating may include, but is not limited to, copying or photographing questions or answers, recording answers elsewhere than on the computer, bringing notes into the testing area, leaving the testing area and checking notes located elsewhere before returning to the testing area."

Would writing down ABCDE and then crossing off the answer choices be considered cheating?  I've found the method very useful when doing practice tests (considerable boost in scoring), but I'd hate to get thrown out of the exam because of it.


If you want to follow the letter of the law, you don't have to write down the answers...merely cross off the wrong choices.  However, you are not permitted to remove scrap paper from the test facility, so I think it's a moot point.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 07-05-05 at 02:27 pm
Congrats to Steve Oppenheimer and others who passed!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: nbaker on 07-06-05 at 02:53 pm
Quote
pretty short list today. Is new system taking its toll?


Ugh it took its toll on me.  Does anyone know if you must submit another transcript when you re-apply? Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 07-06-05 at 07:13 pm
no (within one year). in the form, they ask you the exam date.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: yosar on 07-06-05 at 11:10 pm
I appreciate information on how the test MPEP viewer works

- What is the best MPEP single pdf file that matchs the MPEP viewer in how it displays the MPEP contents?  I am looking for the source of the MPEP file to use for practice.

- Question on the actual test MPEP viewer once you select a chapter:  Do you have to click down in an individual chapter, one level at a time, or is all the detail exploded on one click down?  

- When all the detail is exploded [visible], is it arranged hierarchically [indented so that it is easy to see the level] or just one vertically, left-aligned list [with the levels in the hierarchy not visible]?   The later would be faster but visually more difficult to pick the section if you don't remember the numbers.

- Displaying the MPEP. If you open the MPEP viewer, I understand you can move it around on the screen so that you can at least see some of the question behind the MPEP Viewer.  Is this correct?  Can you resize the Viewer of the question?

- Finally, does the MPEP Viewer default come up at the 78% fit or 100% size.  The later is easier to read.

Thanks for sharing your experience.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Eliz on 07-07-05 at 07:22 am
Hi yosar--I have not taken the exam yet, so someone out there might correct me on the following if I am wrong on anything.  

My understanding is that Adobe Acrobat 5.1 is the closes, but still not exactly the same as what they use on the text.  

My understanding is that you open one chapter at a time, and that it looks just like the MPEP.  i.e. there is a TOC at the beginning of each chapter and it would be just as if you had a paper copy of the MPEP in front of you, except of course it's on the computer screen.  This is why it's so important to get familiar with the actual MPEP to learn where things are.  

Also, apparently you have to reopen the viewer for each question on which you need to use it.  

No idea on the other stuff, but interested to see answers from someone else...
Elizabeth
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: nbaker on 07-07-05 at 05:22 pm
Does anyone have any advice on the time-frame for re-taking the exam?  I got a 66, so I'm close but I don't know if that means that I need 3 more weeks of studying or three more months.  Also, any thoughts on how to re-study once you have already exhausted the recent practice tests would be appreciated.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 07-07-05 at 08:36 pm
This forum is a great resource.

I think that if you're close to passing, and not quite there, I would do the following:

Retake the exams.  Retake them again.  I know that after awhile you'll memorize answers, but it's more important to memorize principles.  That's the sort of analysis you should be doing.

In the past 43 pages, and in other threads, people have posted questions and or topics.  Look these up in the MPEP.  Even if you don't have enough information to answer the questions, use these posts as prompts to help focus your studying.

Of course you may already be doing all this.  In that case, keep at it.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 07-07-05 at 09:48 pm
I dont want to freak people out, but I just noticed that the various MPEP chapters on the www.openipsource.com site appear to be a mixture of the Version 8 (dated Aug 2001) and Version 8 rev 1 (dated Feb 2003) - see the dates at the bottom of the pages.

I havent searched prior posts to see if someone has already noticed this and posted the information previously so
this may be a nonissue for some - but newbies to the board may be unaware of the differences and detrimentally rely on those outdated versions.

Anyone have any info to share re this?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 07-07-05 at 10:54 pm
Quote
I dont want to freak people out, but I just noticed that the various MPEP chapters on the www.openipsource.com site appear to be a mixture of the Version 8 (dated Aug 2001) and Version 8 rev 1 (dated Feb 2003) - see the dates at the bottom of the pages.

I havent searched prior posts to see if someone has already noticed this and posted the information previously so
this may be a nonissue for some - but newbies to the board may be unaware of the differences and detrimentally rely on those outdated versions.

Anyone have any info to share re this?


I also noticed that when I was preparing for the exam. But, I didn't investigate further because I believed that when they came out of Rev. 1, they actually didn't change each and everything in MPEP. Apparently, they made changes in only some of the chapters.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Eliz on 07-08-05 at 07:18 am
Don't freak out....look at the MPEP downloadable from the PTO website...there are some chapters that have earlier dates at the bottom of the page (e.g. chapter 300, chapter 1900).  I'm sure they just didn't update those chapters for Rev2....and if this is the version on the PTO website, I don't think we have anything to worry about.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Eliz on 07-08-05 at 07:20 am
Also, if you look at the Blue Pages (where they list all the changes made for rev2, you will see that no changes were made in the chapters that have the earlier dates).  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: cstorm on 07-08-05 at 05:33 pm
Just took my test today.  I feel about the same as I did after taking practice tests, where I was scoring about 46-48 out of 50.  Doesn't mean I'm not nervous though...

The testing center was great.  The computer was a PIV, and the monitor was 17" with good resolution.  Apparently, the computers are provided by prometric to the testing sites, so places that don't have upgraded computers probably will get them at some point.

The MPEP was easy to use if you know what chapter to turn to.  The only major problem I had was that when you do a search, it won't find the next instance of the search based on what page you are looking at.  Instead, it will start wherever your last search ended.  So, for example, when trying to find certain terms in the obviousness section of 2100, you end up hitting "find next" an awful lot.  That said, opening up the MPEP every time wasn't a problem at all, and the submenu's were available.  Made navigating the larger chapters easy.

There were more obviousness questions than I could count.

I must have had the exact same test that previous posters on this board had, because I had just about all of the same repeat questions from the 2003 exams.  The night before the test, I went over those questions that were supposed repeats, and it helped out alot.

I had three nearly identical questions pertaining to assignments.  The answer I found in 301.01.  The second paragraph after the patent rule passage states that "The Office will not open only certain parts of an assignment document to public inspection.  If such a document contains two or more items, any one of which, if alone, would be open to such inspection, the entire document will be open."  Knowing that, the answer to all three questions was apparent.  (The answer choices were A,B,C, A&B, AB&C.  A was obviously true, B relates to the quote above, and C was where they tried to trick you on the language.)

I am somewhat worried that every repeat question I can recall was identical to a practice test.  I hope I didn't go too fast through them, but they all appeared to be the same as from the 2003 tests.

The new questions that people posted previously here were also on the test.

There was a question on the test that gave three PCT corrections, and wanted to know if the first, second, third, all three, or all three depending on disclosure, were admitted into the PCT application.  The first was a typo "ccar", the second was an omitted description fully disclosed elsewhere in the spec, and the third was an omitted drawing that was in the priority document.  I said that the first and second would be allowed since the first one was obvious, and the second one would be considered as an amendment, in which I believe you only get one in the IA.

There were a couple of questions related to how to correct a claim for 119(e) priority after issue (apparently, after Nov 29 1999 or 2000, you can't do a reissue on this).  

There was also a question about if you deleted a claim for priority after allowance and before issue, and then the examiner pulled the application back and rejected it, how do you get the claim for priority back in the application.  (one of the answer choices was none of these actions are allowable, so i don't even know if it's possible since you willingly gave up priority).

There was also a question on how does examiner pull an application from allowance to consider prior art (straight from MPEP at the end of 1300).

Claims are given their broadest reasonable interpretation in light of the specification.  Remember that wording.

There was a mailing certificate question, where the answer turned out to be that you can't use cert of mailing when submitting a maintenence fee to beat the deadline before it is abandoned (I hope).

The test had a question about giving the applicant a chance to fix the IA and take the later filing date.

Surprisingly enough, there were no claim counting questions.  There weren't any proper dependent questions.  There may have been one comprising/consisting question, but I'm not sure.  Not much small entity stuff, other than a 3 month question.

I am glad the first question on the Oct 2003 AM wasn't a repeat, because I missed it every time during practice tests.

Weird thing:  33 on the April 2003 AM was on the test, even though there are supposedly two right answers.  I put A (which is atleast one of the two).

I'm hoping some of these that I didn't feel as confident in weren't real questions.  If I remember any more questions, I'll post them.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Nervous on 07-12-05 at 02:14 pm
Anyone know if they are going to post another names list today???  If so, do you happen to know what test dates it will cover???
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: cstorm on 07-12-05 at 02:31 pm
Quote
Anyone know if they are going to post another names list today???  If so, do you happen to know what test dates it will cover???


Names will be posted tomorrow if not today.  Letters have already been mailed out for tests through July 8th.

I took the test on July 8th, and I've been checking way too often...
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Nervous on 07-12-05 at 02:35 pm
Quote

Names will be posted tomorrow if not today.  Letters have already been mailed out for tests through July 8th.

I took the test on July 8th, and I've been checking way too often...


I took it on July 7, and I thought for sure it would be posted by now.  Do you know when the letters were mailed... probably yesterday I would think.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: cstorm on 07-12-05 at 03:19 pm
Quote

I took it on July 7, and I thought for sure it would be posted by now.  Do you know when the letters were mailed... probably yesterday I would think.


The lady didn't say when they were mailed out.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: 2confused4words on 07-13-05 at 07:00 am
Man!  You guys are so lucky!  I can't believe USPTO is already posting results from tests taken on July 8th!  I took the test on June 4th and I STILL don't have my results because they lost my test forever!!!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: prosdog on 07-13-05 at 10:27 am
"Man!  You guys are so lucky!  I can't believe USPTO is already posting results from tests taken on July 8th!  I took the test on June 4th and I STILL don't have my results because they lost my test forever!!! "
-----------------------------------

That's absolutely terrible.  I'm really sorry.  Have they offered to do anything to help you?  Any chance they may still "find" your exam?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 07-13-05 at 11:34 am
New list is out.

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/regprac27aug05.htm
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: cstorm on 07-13-05 at 11:51 am
Quote
New list is out.

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/regprac27aug05.htm


Today is a good day.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 07-13-05 at 12:02 pm
 cstorm, you got the result in 4 days. ;D you are one lucky bas****.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: chuangm on 07-13-05 at 12:24 pm
Quote

Today is a good day.


Damn straight it is.  Congrats.  My name is on the list too.






Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: prosdog on 07-13-05 at 05:10 pm
Congrats to both of you!  Hope I can do the same next week.  T minus 5 days and counting.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: 2confused4words on 07-14-05 at 06:45 am
Quote
"Man!  You guys are so lucky!  I can't believe USPTO is already posting results from tests taken on July 8th!  I took the test on June 4th and I STILL don't have my results because they lost my test forever!!! "
-----------------------------------

That's absolutely terrible.  I'm really sorry.  Have they offered to do anything to help you?  Any chance they may still "find" your exam?


I took the test on June 4th and on July 7th they finally said they found it.  Course they won't tell me results yet.  Prometric sent it to USPTO and supposedly USPTO mailed my results yesterday.  I don't know whether I should be on the list posted the 13th or not.  I don't think so because the results for people listed on the web on the 13th were mailed out on the 11th or 12th.  Mine were mailed on the 13th.  So who knows!!  Guess I just have to wait till I get the letter.  This was AFTER Prometric canceled my test 3 times without notifying me ( I took off work and showed up all 3 times) AND the MPEP search button was frozen on my computer.  Needless to say, I am not too happy with them!!!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wanda Greene on 07-14-05 at 10:44 am
Since it has been awhile since you posted your question, my hopes are with you that you have now passed the bar.  If not, don't give up - - keep trying.  I have a great tool for those brand new lawyers - - discount USED LEGAL LAW LIBRARY BOOK SETS.  Many can be updated and all will add that special, professional look to your new office.  You can view the books I have available at http://stores.ebay.com/GreenesThings . Be sure to check back often, I have more on the way.  Again, best wishes for you in your new career.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: FunkyHomoSapien on 07-14-05 at 01:45 pm
Hi, I'm taking the exam next Wednesday.  Can anyone answer the following questions I have?

1. How much of the PCT, interference, appeals, etc. (the "2nd half" questions) were brand new?  I'm taking Kayton, and I can't think of a way to study for these questions except to read and re-read the treatise chapters on these topics.

2. I'm getting right about 70% on the old exams.  That's probably a bad sigh, right?

3.  Why is the index useless?  I keep having to refer to it, since I can't remember all the chapter headings and because it is at times quite specific.  Can someone explain?

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 07-14-05 at 02:32 pm
I always thought the "s" at the end of Homo sapiens wasn't there to indicate plurality. Could be wrong. Anyway ...

1. I took the "old" MPEP version exam, so I can't answer this. But if you mean "new" in comparison to old printed/paper exams, then there were quite a few new ones.

2. 70% is not necessarily a bad sign, though it isn't great. You can learn a lot in one week if you put other things aside and really focus. That sounds like something you might need to do. By the way, you should be getting in the high 90s on old exams if you're taking them a 2nd or 3rd time. Memorize/understand each and every question on recent old exams. If you're making a 70 on your first try on the old exams, then you're in decent shape, but still use this last week to really lay it on thick.

3. I was unaware that the index is useless ... seemed useful to me!

Main thing I could suggest at this point is to thoroughly learn the MPEP. Understand the basic STRUCTURE/skeleton of the book and then start understanding how the details are laid out. Try doing a very broad outline if it will help. People that are failing the test, at least on this board, seem to me to be the ones that don't know the MPEP very well.

Best wishes and God bless you on your test.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: FunkyHomoSapien on 07-15-05 at 06:13 am
Thanks for your reply.  I have a few more questions.

1. How familiar w/ the MPEP can you get?  My approach has been to memorize the chapters most commonly tested (e.g., 2100, 700, 600, etc.) and then otherwise use the index.  Can you elaborate on how I should familiarize myself with the MPEP?

2.  The PDF Acrobat reader has a nice submenu on the side.  Does the software on the real exam have something comparable?

Thanks!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: FunkyHomoSapien on 07-15-05 at 06:41 am
Sorry, one more question.

What's the deal w/ the 102(e)(2) reference date for a US PATENT issued from an app filed b/f 11/29/00 and after that date?  I thought:
1. Filed After 11/29/00, it's the international filing date, as long as the app is published in English.
2. Filed Before 11/29/00, it's the entry into national stage date.

However, the answer to question 12 on the April 2002 exam says that 102(e)(2) says that a patent is NOT entitled to any international filing date for prior purposes?

Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 07-15-05 at 07:48 am
Quote
Thanks for your reply.  I have a few more questions.

1. How familiar w/ the MPEP can you get?  My approach has been to memorize the chapters most commonly tested (e.g., 2100, 700, 600, etc.) and then otherwise use the index.  Can you elaborate on how I should familiarize myself with the MPEP?

2.  The PDF Acrobat reader has a nice submenu on the side.  Does the software on the real exam have something comparable?

Thanks!


1.) That's a good start. You know details about the chapters most commonly tested. However, there are a lot of points to be earned on concepts that are in chapters NOT commonly tested. In the other chapters, take time to at least learn how everything is organized. Make a mental outline of the basic structure of each chapter. Don't use the index as a crutch; if you KNOW where to find something, you won't spend valuable time looking it up in the index and then trying to find the actual passage. If you encounter a strange question, you can at least think, "Hmm, that's probably in so-and-so chapter, and I'm not positive, but it's probably in so-and-so area of the chapter." Not everything is found in the index, as you know. Be sure you are a search-tool expert, by the way.

2.) Unfortunately, I don't remember whether it does or not. The PTO has a helpful "simulation" on its site where you can see screenshots of the software used in the PTO exam. Others on the board might be able to remember.

As to your other question, there are some example scenarios and some flowcharts which are incredibly helpful in these types of questions. So much so that you encounter a question, flip to the flowchart, and you'll probably wind up with a good answer. It's in Ch. 700 (this is why I stress familiarity w/ the MPEP - you should know that! This type of 102(e)/filing date stuff makes up a decent portion of the test!).



Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: 2confused4words on 07-15-05 at 08:36 am
Quote

I took the test on June 4th and on July 7th they finally said they found it.  Course they won't tell me results yet.  Prometric sent it to USPTO and supposedly USPTO mailed my results yesterday.  I don't know whether I should be on the list posted the 13th or not.  I don't think so because the results for people listed on the web on the 13th were mailed out on the 11th or 12th.  Mine were mailed on the 13th.  So who knows!!  Guess I just have to wait till I get the letter.  This was AFTER Prometric canceled my test 3 times without notifying me ( I took off work and showed up all 3 times) AND the MPEP search button was frozen on my computer.  Needless to say, I am not too happy with them!!!



Yippee!!!  I DID pass!  Just got my letter. Guess I'll be on next week's posting.   What a rollercoaster ride this has been!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: anonymous1 on 07-15-05 at 08:44 am
Alright!! Congratulations! I'm especially glad for you, since you had to deal with the "what do you mean you lost my test?" issue.

Again, congrats and God bless.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: 2confused4words on 07-15-05 at 12:01 pm
Thanks Anonymous 1!!  This forum is a great help.  Thanks to everyone who posts.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Eliz on 07-15-05 at 12:54 pm
Congrats 2confused!  that must have been so stressful!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: prosdog on 07-15-05 at 01:06 pm
Congrats 2C4W!  Hope I do as well you did.  T minus 3 days and counting.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Studying_hard on 07-15-05 at 03:18 pm
Quote


Yippee!!!  I DID pass!  Just got my letter. Guess I'll be on next week's posting.   What a rollercoaster ride this has been!


2confused:
I think all of us who follow this forum send our congratulations to you!!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: xenoslush on 07-18-05 at 01:28 pm
Just wanted to say something about my unique experience with the OED.

I took the exam on June 1st and got my letter... today! My name has not been published on any of the lists (registration notices) as of yet.

About a week ago, I came back to the forum after a long while to see what people are saying about the exams -- once I found out that those who took their exam in July were receiving their letters I asked myself the question.. why in the hell haven't i? I took the exam on June 1st for chrissakes! So, I called the OED and was told that my letter was supposed to have been sent out a while ago and that someone somewhere will take a look at my file and send me another letter. Right away I thought, great, my name's not on the list and the letter was lost in the mail, or something like that.. so I obviously did not pass.. because the LIST! the frickin list -- my name is not on any of the lists and it has already been 6 weeks! So, I shed some dry tears yet again.. sucked it up and started studying again. Today, I check the mail, and see an envelope from the patent office. Failure notice.. or so I think. Can't be a pass notice.. oh what is my failing score, do i wonder. I open the envelope and read... "I am pleased to inform you that you have attained a passing grade..." OMG. I couldn't believe my eyes. I passed. ..you know, I was sure I passed right after I took the exam, but after having gone through all this waiting and checking and rechecking the lists I lost all but the slightest glimmer of hope. I was broken. Really.. emotionally exhausted. I passed! ..still can't believe it.

Anyways, that's my story. ..and the moral of it is, DO NOT TRUST THE LIST!!    ..a friend of mine said, "man, who cares what some 'unofficial' list says." and I thought, "it's not unofficial, it's official!! I failed!!"  ...turns out i didn't after all.

Good luck to everyone who is taking the test! I wish you guys all the best. This forum is key and it helped me tremendously. Thanks!

..and 2confused4words, thanks for sharing my concern. and congratulations!


xenoslush
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: cheshire_cat on 07-18-05 at 03:26 pm
Thank you to all the posters from the past months.  I just took the test last week - regardless of whether or not I passed, I know that there would have been no chance in hell for me to pass if I had not read these listings.  

My point of view is to read through PLI's free notes (a suggestion made previously, which I took) which seem to cover every bit of info that has been tested over the past few years... I had taken the 01-03 tests prior to reading the PLI notes and found that the PLI notes cover all the essentials, both major and minutiae-wise.

I had studied from "the Guidebook to Patent Law" for half a year and found out [frightenly] that it was meager to the task for learning the important material -  I would stay away from "the Guidebook."

All-in-all, knowing the 2003 exams is key.  The PTO used plenty of recycled questions therefrom.  Good luck to all future test takers...  hopefully I will not be one myself!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: yosar on 07-18-05 at 05:47 pm
cheshire_cat.  Hope you did well.  

What are the "PLI's free notes" you refer to?  Do you mean www.openipsource.com?  Thanks for the clarification.  If it not openipsource, I would appreciate a more direct pointer.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Eliz on 07-18-05 at 07:28 pm
I think cheshire is referring to http://www.patentbarreview.com/
Scroll down and click on "Previous PTO Exams"
There is a list of the previous exams back to 1998, along with the official PTO answers and an analysis by PLI.  I have found the analysis to be useful where:
1) I am looking at an old exam and think a question might be out of date (their analysis often states which q's are no longer relevant), or
2) even after looking at the PTO answer, I am still confused about a question...their analysis does not clear things up for me 100% of the time, but in general it's pretty good (and you can't beat the price)
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: 2confused4words on 07-18-05 at 07:29 pm
Quote
Just wanted to say something about my unique experience with the OED.
Good luck to everyone who is taking the test! I wish you guys all the best. This forum is key and it helped me tremendously. Thanks!

..and 2confused4words, thanks for sharing my concern. and congratulations!


Xenoslush - CONGRATULATIONS!!!  We survived the OED inflicted trauma - -it's like a dreadful cat and mouse game...but we snuck into the mousehole just when we thought all hope was lost!!! :P
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: cheshire_cat on 07-19-05 at 08:58 am
Sorry about my stupid mistake... Indeed, I meant to refer to opensource (http://www.openipsource.com/PatentBarReviewCourse.html), not PLI.  Must have been the post-test trauma affecting my brain!  For sure, watch out for outdated questions.  Good luck
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Stressed Out on 07-19-05 at 11:05 pm
Hey all, I just started studying for this between law school semesters (I am in my thirties and taking law school at night). I figured 6 weeks would be fine and am now feeling completely overwhelmed by the mass of information, especially since 20-30% of the MPEP is horribly worded. I wouldn't feel this overwhelmed but I am constantly surprised at the level of detail in some of these questions considering the breadth of the exam. I also have the patbar program and don't understand how people can look anything up on these exams, the search function is horrible only taking you to the first instance - I had one question about fees that took me 5min to look up. And most of the questions we see at the end of the sections don't admit to look ups, they require knowing the rules (claim counting, file dates).

What concerns me the most is that other people I know who took the exam prior to its computer format said that the key to passing was really taking old exams. Their experience was that there was enough identical or extremely similar questions recycled to pass just from knowing the old exams. This made me feel comfortable because I have an excellent memory (though not excellent enough to memorize 1600 pages of material).

Reading here it seems like others thought the same thing and then were poleaxed with questions they had no clue about. Others say theirs was very similar.

Which is right? Or are they both right and it's luck of the draw now?

I was pretty even keeled coming into this but now i am almost constantly stressed about this exam.

I'm hoping I will take my first practice exam in this patbar course soon so I will know if I am worrying to much. Right now I do a section and sometimes I get 100% right at the end, sometimes 70-80%, others 20-40%. There was one question on IDS' that was so long and complicated it took me 3 minutes just to sort through and dump out what didn't matter :-/. If it was a paper test I'd line through the immaterial portions.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: prosdog on 07-20-05 at 07:25 am
The new list just came out.  I wasn't on it.  I took the exam 2 days ago on the 18th.  I shouldn't worry, should I?  I wouldn't have been on the list that came out Wednesday if I took the exam on Monday, right?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Eliz on 07-20-05 at 08:04 am
stressed out--I don't take the exam until Friday, but here's my 2 cents.  6 weeks sounds kind of short, but not totally undoable.  You didn't say how far along you were, but I found that as I got more towards the end of the program, things started to come together more.  There is a lot of repetition throughout the MPEP on certain topics.  It sounds like you are doing the prior exam q's from each module using the electronic MPEP, which is good.  I wish I had started doing that earlier on.  It is very important to get comfortable with the electronic MPEP.  I'm not sure what you mean that the search function is only finding the first occurrance of the word or phrase.  There should be a "find again" button immediately to the right of the "find" button in Acrobat (you should be using the version that David from patbar recommends).  I have heard that the version for the actual exam is slightly different, but that there is a find again function.  This should help you a lot, I imagine...I am using "find again" quite a bit on my practice exams.  

I have also found that getting familiar with the organization of the actual MPEP has helped me look things up a lot quicker.  i.e. knowing what chapter to go to for what topic, and becoming familiar with the "table of contents" at the beginning of each chapter.  I know that the patbar materials place a lot of emphasis on the using the index, and I think that the index can be useful, but I have found that it is not always organized in the most logical way.  

I know people are saying that there are some bizarro questions on the exam lately...but for all we know these may be the beta test questions that are not scored.  I would try not to freak out about that too much.  Also, people are still saying (at least last I heard) that there are a good number of repeats on the exam.  Honestly, it makes sense with the new format that there are going to be repeats, since all the "real" questions have to be ones that have been psychometrically analyzed and therefore they have a limited pool of questions (i.e. there can only be so many that have been sufficiently analyzed since they stopped publishing the exams).  As far as what people are saying about the PCT, interference, appeal, etc questions, there have been questions on those topics on the exam before...although it sounds like they may be more highly represented on the recent exams.  If I were you, I would make sure you go through the sections in the patbar manual on those topics and make sure you do and understand the questions.  Also, when you run across one of those topics on the practice exams, make sure you understand it.  

I would go ahead and take a prior exam and see where you are.  You may be doing just fine.  I would probably take one of the '03 exams, since people are saying that many of the repeats are coming from those.  

A few other random things I have found that have helped me improve my score and times on my practice exams:
1.  If you have a fact-pattern type question, glance at the actual question first.  Then read the rest of the question.  This helps you weed out the unimportant stuff more efficiently.  
2.  For date-based questions, I always make a mini-timeline on a scratch piece of paper to help keep track of the dates and events that go with the dates.  
3.  Watch out for:
    --negative questions....i.e. ones that say "not" or "improper" etc where the wrong answer is the right answer....sounds simple, but I think a lot of people mess these up.  
     --design questions (there is a nice list right at the beginning of the design chapter--1500--of differences between design and utility apps/patents)
    --absolute language in answers (i.e. "always" or "only").  In my experience, these answers are often incorrect...it seems like there are exceptions to almost every rule with the PTO.
4.  read the question CAREFULLY...again, sounds simple, but I can't tell you how many times I have goofed up a question because I was trying to read it too fast.  As a corallary, if you have eliminated 3 answers and the remaining two seem equally good, I often find it helps to reread the question...at least 50% of the time there is something in there that I missed the first time through.

Finally, if you are not already using David as a resource, start.  He is a very nice guy and very willing to answer questions.  He will get back to you very quickly, and will go out of his way to help.  

That's all I can think of right now, and I need to get back to my practice exams :)  Please take my advice with a grain of salt for the time being since I haven't actually taken the real exam yet...I can post again after Friday when I have taken the exam and tell you my impressions.  

prosdog--I wouldn't worry too much...2 days would be lightening speed for the PTO, right?  You could always call OED though and see what test dates it covers.    
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: nothinhere on 07-20-05 at 11:34 am
I just found this forum yesterday and wanted to make a few comments.

I took the test July 14th and found my name on the list today (July 20th).  I'm so happy I passed!!!

Anyway, I used the patbar system and found doing the previous tests were the BEST thing I could of done.  I may not be completely accurate, but it seems like (as far as I remember from last week) almost 40% of my questions were exactly the same as some old test questions (mostly 2003) and a few more with a slight change.  Maybe I got lucky, but it was great to have done those tests (2 or 3 times), so that I knew the answer as I was reading the question.

As far as topics I found on the test....there were 5 straight questions in the afternoon session on the PCT.  Some of them were very difficult, others were a simple quick lookup.  There were multiple questions on appeal, reissue, reexamination, assignments, death of an inventor.  There was maybe 2 questions on claims and a fair amount (6-  8) questions on 102/103 prior art stuff.

I was so happy to see the question (i think from 2003) about calculation of claims where the answer was 147 (if I remember correctly).

I also probably looked up about half of the questions.  I went through the whole test and did the questions I knew without looking up. Then I went back through and looked up the ones I wasn't completely sure about and needed just to lookup to confirm my answer.  Finally, taking the rest of the time doing serious lookups.  I think one question I spent almost 15 minutes, but I had the time left to do so because I was able to answer about 20 questions in about 45 minutes.

I had the same issue with patbar's electronic version of MPEP. It doesn't allow you to look for next occurance, unless when you find the first occurance you skip to the next page and then click find.  But don't worry the real test has the "find next" feature.  I liked using the index, it came in handy.

This has been a very interesting forum, I wish I knew about it earlier.  It is great to hear your experience.  Maybe I'll think of some other stuff later.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Eliz on 07-20-05 at 11:53 am
Quote
I had the same issue with patbar's electronic version of MPEP. It doesn't allow you to look for next occurance, unless when you find the first occurance you skip to the next page and then click find.  But don't worry the real test has the "find next" feature.  I liked using the index, it came in handy.



That's so weird...I have had no problems with the "find again".  Stressed out, if you still have problems with it I would highly suggest contacting David at patbar.com to try to figure out what the problem is.  "find again" has been really helpful for me, and since it will be available on the real exam, I think it's important to get used to using it.  

notinhere--with regards to the PCT questions, I am curious to know whether at least some of those were repeats.  Also, did you have any interference questions?  I am taking the test on Friday, and one of the things I plan to do tomorrow is go over the prior exam q's from the PCT, interference, appeals, and reexam sections.  Thanks in advance for any response.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: nothinhere on 07-20-05 at 12:41 pm
Eliz---

I think there are only 1 repeat question on PCT, the rest of the questions seemed new to me.  But I was able to look them up fairly quickly because I just typed in a phrase from the question and did a "find" that took me to the exact place I needed to answer the question.

There was one question that didn't make sense to me, but I hoped that was one of those beta questions. I really couldn't find any answer, but I don't remember exactly what it was talking about - i think it had something to do with priority dates.

As far as interference questions, I think the only question relating to that was it formed part of an answer....something like there are 2 pending applications within such and such dates, What would be best to comply with the rules of the USPTO?"

I wouldn't worry too much about interference, maybe just the general stuff.  When there might be an interference problem?

I had a couple of questions about the death of an inventor and what happens to the power of attorney? Whether the attorney can continue to prosecute the application or an assignee? It is explained fairly straight forward in the MPEP, just remember where to find it.

And assignments, I really couldn't believe there were so many questions on this topic.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: cheshire_cat on 07-20-05 at 01:09 pm
I was intrigued to read over nothinhere's post.  Congratulations on passing.  I too took the exam on 7/14/05 and found there to be the same number of repeats you report (quite a bunch!).  Interestingly, I did not have the claim counting question though (answer 147).  Therefore, it seems for certain that on any given day, different test takers will have a different test, though I have no idea on the extent to the actual differences.  Anyways...
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: J on 07-20-05 at 04:42 pm
You know what - I just took the patent bar for the first time and passed it. I have a physics degree, and I worked for 1+ year in a patent law firm as a SECRETARY. I can tell you, being a secretary is better than any patent bar study course, as far as learning the procedures. I would say at least 25% of the questions on the exam I knew by heart without ever having to look up, just from being an admin. Tee hee! Many of your experienced secretaries may know the law just as well as you (or better)!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: mohaut on 07-22-05 at 11:24 am
I have 2004 PRG video review course for sale.

If anyone is interested,  

please call 415-504-6618

or email mohaut2005@yahoo.com
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Stressed Out on 07-22-05 at 07:17 pm
Well, I ran into a streak of questions that I could look up - I am in the section on extensions. The search function issue is still a huge one.

I guess I am getting a bit better with practice. My biggest problem right now is that I fall for every trick that gets thrown at you by the PTO. I'm guessing this isn't really a knowledge test but some sort of sick fun they have at the PTO :).

I also take way to long on the sections. 2x the reccomended. But I guess I at least seem to be learning.

If I get 40% repeats from the last three years of tests I should be ok.

Do you get better at recognizing the tricks or pitfalls as you do more questions?

I hate the questions that give you 4 different right answers except that one answer has one word changed.

I didn't sleep but 3 hours last night and I am over 5 weeks from taking this :/.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Interested on 07-27-05 at 09:00 am
Going to take the test pretty soon.

Does the MPEP provided have the consolidated rules and laws?  ???
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: prosdog on 07-27-05 at 03:36 pm
<Does the MPEP provided have the consolidated rules and laws?>


Yes.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: BT on 08-01-05 at 10:34 am
Has anyone who recently took the prometric test gotten an unofficial result immediately after they fininshed the exam?  I was surprised to see this come up after I hit the "end" button.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: FunkyHomoSapien on 08-01-05 at 10:54 am
Hi, can anyone tell me how far I need to go back with the old exams?  Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: BTP on 08-01-05 at 11:07 am
Quote
Has anyone who recently took the prometric test gotten an unofficial result immediately after they fininshed the exam?  I was surprised to see this come up after I hit the "end" button.  


I took the exam on July 26, and got nothing other than "The USPTO will mail the results in due course."

However, due course was pretty quick.  Letter was dated and postmarked July 28 and received today.  I passed.  Whew.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Eliz on 08-01-05 at 02:58 pm
Quote
Has anyone who recently took the prometric test gotten an unofficial result immediately after they fininshed the exam?  I was surprised to see this come up after I hit the "end" button.  


That must be new...I took it on the 22nd and got the "results will be mailed in due course" message.  But like BTP said, "due course" was really quick.  I had been wondering if they were going to start doing that when they switched to the 90/10 exam format.  Guess so.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Hee Kim on 08-02-05 at 10:30 am
Taking the test at the Bethesda, MD center. I called the number to the center to get the low down on the testing center conditions, but I just get a recording. Anyone have any input about the Bethesda Center? I'm actually closer to Baltimore, but Bethesda is a more affluent area and I figure that they will prob be more high tech than B-more. I'm not taking chances with my exam freezing up. Thanks!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Testtaker on 08-02-05 at 12:47 pm
I take the exam tomorrow and am having trouble figuring out the differences between 102e(1) dates for IA publications, USPTO publications and 102(e)2 dates for Patents.  

I have been reviewing the examples under 706.02(f)1, specifically example 8 (page 700-35 in revision 2) and don't understand why there can be no 102e dates for publications yet there can be a 102e(2) date for the patent.  What is this!!?  

How can you have 102e dates for a patent that has arisen from a publication that has no 102e date?  

If anyone can decipher this twisted sadistic mind game I'd sure appreciate it.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: BLV on 08-02-05 at 01:05 pm
I took the test on 7/23 (Tuesday) and got the same "due course" message as BTP and Eliz.  My results arrived (passed - whew) on 7/26 (Friday).

I wish I had found this forum before taking the test (found it when I was trying to find out how quickly results would come).  I especially like the advice to write down ABCDE for all 50 questions during the tutorial (for AM) and during the break (for PM).  I broke questions into 3 categories: 1) Knew the answer w/o any research (probably 25-30% of questions); 2) Felt I could find answer in MPEP in less than 2 minutes (probably another 25-30%); and 3) Felt it would take over 2 minutes to find the answer in the MPEP.  For category #3, I would answer the question (with an educated guess) and "mark" the question so that I could easily return to it.

Last, I agree that using the Index is difficult and should only be used as a last resort.  It's best to know the general category of each MPEP chapter and then go to the start of that chapter.  Using the "find" function will be more efficient that way.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: BTP on 08-02-05 at 01:33 pm
Quote
How can you have 102e dates for a patent that has arisen from a publication that has no 102e date?  

If anyone can decipher this twisted sadistic mind game I'd sure appreciate it.  


I recommend not trying to dechipher it; it only adds to the sadism.  Also remember that a publication, even if it doesn't have a 102(e) date, can still be prior art as of its publication date under 102(a) and 102(b).  Usually, 102(e) date questions will be clearly labeled as such.  If the question is simply "Is this prior art?", con't forget the other subsections.

I found the flowcharts at MPEP section 706.02(f)(1)(III), pp. 700-38 and 700-39, to be invaluable.  Follow them religiously and you will not get a 102(e) question wrong.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: BTP on 08-03-05 at 10:10 am
New list is out.

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/regprac16sep05.htm
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Testtaker on 08-04-05 at 04:39 pm
BTK, thanks for the advice on the 102(e) stuff.  I posted my last message on the 2nd indicating I was scheduled to sit for the exam on the 3rd.  Well, the computer malfunctioned and I had to reschedule (I'm in San Diego).  Fortunately I was able to reschedule my exam for today (4th).  

I thought I'd let everyone know that as soon as the exam was completed I got a message to the effect "preliminary test results show that you passed the PTO exam, you will receive your results in due course."

It appears that the PTO has finally gotten computer grading right on the money.  

If anyone wants to hear the gory details and issues tested let me know.  I can't really think about it right at the moment.  Suffice it to say there were the usual issues posted lately although not a lot of 102, other then 102(e).  

Thank God that's over.  Good luck to everyone still preparing.  

 
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Smile Child on 08-04-05 at 10:30 pm
Does anyone know if you get a paper copy of the MPEP as quoted in the Patent guidelines?

Thanks!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: See Kay on 08-05-05 at 08:51 am
I took the Exam and, since this thread was helpful,   I thought I'd contribute some info:

I did get immediate unofficial results at the end my exam.  As someone mentioned, be prepared for flickering computer screens with low refresh rates and you can't adjust it.  My search function worked well.

As for questions, there were about 10-15 repeats from the last 2-3 exams.  Off the top of my head, here's a few:  45 days to correct an unlicensed FF, that claim construction Q where the "lever of the machine" is correct, 101 Q where the program that moves the robot is the answer; intervention of Assignee who owns entire interest; uncooperative, non-signing inventor; ask PTO for forgiveness if you incorrectly claim SE status at filing (and also a Q on the relevance of at what point in pros the status changes on paying your deficiencies, i.e. IF vs. filing fee).

For non-repeats, there were lots of dead inventors and how this affects Power of Attorney and prosecution.  At least 3 small entity questions.  A hand full of PCT questions (what can you fax; what is a complete app; how long to add a priority claim, Article 34 vs. 19 amendment; obscure amendment of abstract question; proving an applicant is authorized to file).  Declaration controls over ADS; how to amend citizenship.  Some reexam and appeal Q's.  The binding affect of a District Ct decision as to validity vs. invalidity.  When is notice of appeal due when applicant responds to FOA in 2 mo's and Ex doesn't get back with AA until 3.  What sort of app of the following is not considered a newly filed application.  The affect of not responding to an Examiner's Statement of Reasons for Allowance on PTA.  A few 103(c) Q's.  Can't extend IF, but can petition.  A public access to assignment doc's question.  A 3rd party protest question.  Standards for the Ex applying PA to a M+F claim.  A "unduly multiplied" claims question when there's 200 claims.  IDS questions (after allowance both when the inventor has had knowledge all along and when you find PA at the end; IDS is a adequate submission if it's the only thing sent with an RCE other than fee).  Authorization and info needed to of an Employee/Associate of someone of record to access a non-pub, pending app.  Maintence fee sent without app or serial no.

A lot of these more obscure one's could be found by guessing which MPEP section and choosing the right search term based on unique language in the Q (e.g., "unduly multiplied" in 700).

All in all, it wasn't that bad.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Testaker on 08-05-05 at 10:37 am
See Kay, that sounds like exactly  the same exam I took to the letter.  Anyone scheduled to take the exam in the next few days should pay close attention as to how the issues See Kay outlined would be located in the MPEP and how they would be answered.  Wow, what a memory.    
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: BTP on 08-05-05 at 10:42 am
Quote
Does anyone know if you get a paper copy of the MPEP as quoted in the Patent guidelines?

Thanks!


A paper MPEP is only provided for a paper administration of the exam, of which there has been only one since 2003.  The self-scheduled electronic exam has a PDF MPEP with a clunky but useable interface.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wiscagent on 08-05-05 at 12:54 pm
Maheu Publishing publishes a paper copy of the MPEP, accompanied by a searchable CD.  It cost about $50 or $60.

See http://maheupublishing.com/Home.htm
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: yosar on 08-05-05 at 05:51 pm
....a Q on the relevance of at what point in pros the status changes on paying your deficiencies, i.e. IF vs. filing fee).

.....Can't extend IF, but can petition.  

--------------------------------------------------------------
Kay, Thank you very much for your summary.  I wasn't sure what your "IF" abbreviation meant in the above two questions.  Do you mean issue fee?  Thanks.

Very glad you passed.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: See Kay on 08-05-05 at 06:59 pm
Thanks.

IF=issue fee.  And the my other nonsensical statement should have read "a Q on the relevance of at what point in pros your SE status changes and the effect on when (and how much) you pay your deficiencies, i.e. IF vs. filing fee.

The best advice I can give is to know the repeats, practice searching the MPEP electronically until you're very efficient at it, and don't get hung up on questions (put down an answer and move on and you'll have a lot of time to look up answers).

Good luck.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Smile Child on 08-06-05 at 11:33 am
Thanks for the information about the exam.  Very useful!

Is the MPEP used electronically in a PDF format?  Does it offer the option to have the table of contents shown on the left side such as chapters 100, 200, etc.?  

Did you practice old Patent exams using online tests (offered by upstart and others)?  

Thanks!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Nervous on 08-06-05 at 10:13 pm
I just took the test yesterday at the South San Francisco testing center.  After I finished the exam, a message appeared on my screen saying that preliminary results showed that I passed.  When I exited the testing room, I was handed a piece of paper saying "Preliminary results show that you have passed the USPTO registeration exam. Official results will be sent to you in due course."  I was way not expecting to know how I did for at least a week, and was (and am still) in a bit of shock.  Anyways, I was wondering if anyone has heard of someone who got this notification, but then ended up not passing when the official results were posted.  I didn't think we were -supposed- to be told at the testing center, and just don't want to start celebrating if there is still a chance that I didn't pass.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Done! on 08-08-05 at 02:39 pm
I took the exam today (for the first time) in Columbia, Maryland and received preliminary information that I had passed (right after the exam).  See Kay's comments were dead on - I must have taken the same exam (however I though that there were more repeats than See Kay listed - more like 30 or 35).  I studied for 3 months.  The exam really wasn't that hard.

Excellent facility, and MPEP searching worked like a charm.  Don't get discouraged by previous posters - if you know the information well, understand the exam answers from the past 2 years, as well as where to find stuff in the MPEP, you'll pass.  Trust me.  If you know the old questions, as well as the basic stuff, that frees up TONS of time on the harder questions...  I took Jim Longacre's course (he used to work for PLI), and it was excellent.  It's at www.passthepatentbar.com if anyone's interested.  I highly recommend it.  I'll still be checking this thread periodically, so if there are any questions, lemme know.  Or, feel free to send me an e-mail.

Dan

PS.  I have no prior law or patent experience, nor a PhD or anything (but I do have a MSEE), so don't think of my experience as an aberration.  My first-year law school (GW) orientation starts in a week , so I'm definitely glad to get this exam out of the way.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 08-08-05 at 06:20 pm
Can anyone tell me whether the searchable MPEP provided at the prometric testing facility searches subsection headings? I am practicing with old exams using a downloaded MPEP in adobe acrobat format, and it seems that I can't search for the subsection headings. Very frustrating...

Also, is Inter Partes Examination tested that much? I haven't seen very many old exam questions that deal with Inter Partes. Don't know if this has changed.

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 08-08-05 at 07:01 pm
I am trying to take the prometric sample exam from their website:
http://www.prometric.com/demos/uspto/starthere.htm

However, after I finish the tutorial, it takes me back to the beginning again. If I click on "click here to begin", then it just takes me back to the tutorial again. I can't find a link to take the actual sample exam. Anyone else having any luck with this? Response are very much appreciated.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Studying_hard on 08-08-05 at 07:05 pm
Can anyone tell me how I actually receive my reg. no?  My "comment period" is now complete, but the posted list was extracted on July 27, and so is almost 2 weeks out of date.  

Am I to receive the reg. no. in the mail?  Or wait until they update the list of registered attys/agents?

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 08-08-05 at 07:21 pm
I seem to recall that the database was getting updated on Thursdays.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 08-08-05 at 09:26 pm
Try advance search.

Quote
Can anyone tell me how I actually receive my reg. no?  My "comment period" is now complete, but the posted list was extracted on July 27, and so is almost 2 weeks out of date.  

Am I to receive the reg. no. in the mail?  Or wait until they update the list of registered attys/agents?

Thanks.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: wish me luck on 08-09-05 at 10:55 am
I have a question for those who have taken the exam: I am using the simulator from upstartraising, and so far I really like the MPEP search tool that they provide. Does anyone know whether the MPEP search tool for the real exam is as good? Thanks!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: leonb313 on 08-10-05 at 04:25 pm
Hey, all.  Just took the exam today and passed.  This board really did help.  Thank you to everyone who posts here.  I was looking for the questions See Kay mentioned a few days back, but I had a different exam.  Over the last couple of weeks I focused my time on knowing the Apr and Oct 2003 exams, and I counted at least 30 repeats from those two exams (about 18 in my AM session and 13 in the PM session).  I wish I could list some of them here, but my recall memory isn't that great.  After going through this, my tip would be to not get too twisted up about this exam.  Know the old exams in and out and the general PTO concepts, and you'll have lots of time to look up the stuff you don't know.  I feel bad for the people that will have to take the exam in the future if the PTO starts replacing all of the easy repeat questions from the paper exams with the "experimental" questions that they're testing now.

Also, thanks to the people who suggested using the tutorial time to write out ABCDE on the scratch paper for each question.  The main thing it did for me was to ease the butterflies I had in my stomach while I focused on writing 50 A's, 50 B's, ... (not to mention focusing on how tired my writing hand was getting).
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: dazed_and_confused on 08-10-05 at 05:38 pm
I took the exam today as well but am unsure whether I passed or not. I got something saying that I didnt and that my score was 64. I am hope that this is my raw score and I really passed, but I cant find any info on whether it is raw score or % score. The people at Prometric had no idea.

I thought the test centered a lot more on the PCT stuff that I thought was obscure.

I have heard that you can no longer appeal your results. Is that true?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 08-10-05 at 05:47 pm
you are right, no appeal...

good luck.

Quote
I took the exam today as well but am unsure whether I passed or not. I got something saying that I didnt and that my score was 64. I am hope that this is my raw score and I really passed, but I cant find any info on whether it is raw score or % score. The people at Prometric had no idea.

I thought the test centered a lot more on the PCT stuff that I thought was obscure.

I have heard that you can no longer appeal your results. Is that true?

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: dazed_and_confused on 08-10-05 at 05:50 pm
Thats what I figured, I just got my fingers crossed that they gave me my raw score and not the percentage score...but thats hoping for a lot

Has anyone who took the exam and gotten preliminary results as well as official results as well? If so do they match up?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: sorry to say on 08-10-05 at 06:28 pm
Sorry to tell you that the preliminary score and the actual score likely match up.   I got a 65% prelim score and a letter a few days later with the same score.

Good luck next time!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: dazed_and_confused on 08-10-05 at 06:30 pm
thanks, thats what I was worried about. Good luck to you the next time around as well

Kind of kicking myself because I didnt know of the 90-10 format. I probably wouldnt have chased some answers so hard had I known that
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Hee Kim on 08-10-05 at 07:37 pm
I took the exam Tuesday August 9, in Columbia, MD and passed. From reading the horror stories on this forum, I was scared about whether the facilities were up to par, so even though the Baltimore and Towson centers were closer to me, I thought Columbia would have better facilities. I drove an hour out of my way, but it was definitely worth it.

The testing center was really nice, you have your workstation in a cubicle/ study carrel (sp?) type set up, you get headphones to block out the noise. The monitors are a good size, not sure how big it is, but it's good. Searching the MPEP was a breeze- no freeze ups, and it popped up very fast. The center is at a good temperature. I was afraid that it would be too cold, so I brought sweats, but I ended up not needing them. You should be fine in a T-shirt and pants/ shorts.

They tell you to arrive at the center 30 minutes before your test. They use the 30 minutes to seat individuals and set up their tests. So the sooner you get there, the sooner you are seated, the sooner you start, and the sooner you are outta there.

Lemme know if you have any questions, and thanks to everyone who posted on this forum. I could not have passed without your comments.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: dmj4w on 08-10-05 at 08:01 pm
A big thing that really helped me on the exam:

Take a quick pass through the section and do all the short/easy/repeat questions first.  If you've adequately studied the old tests, you should now have tons more average time per question to do the remaining ones.

Also, doing this puts you in a better frame of mind because you've just answered a lot of questions, and should hopefully have more confidence for the remaining ones.

Click the "Review" button in the bottom right corner, and start attacking the remaining questions!!!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: dmj4w on 08-10-05 at 08:10 pm
Do the questions in each section in order of difficulty.  If you're going to sink 15 minutes (for example, for a difficult fact pattern) into one question, make sure its one of the last few you need to do in the section, so you won't be too screwed if you don't get it before time runs out.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: memory man on 08-11-05 at 05:22 pm
Dazed and confused: you mentioned PCT.  I found that one to be a total problem too;  lots of PCT.

I remember a freak question that asked something like: what is the latest you can enter chapter 2 and still enter all national stages in all countries?  And the answer choices were bizarre, like 36 months, 30 months, 20 months, 19 months, etc.  and I had no clue, since I was expecting 22 months. Anyone remember this and how to tackle it? I have read 1800 and still am not clear on the answer.

There was also some question on Biotech sequence listings where it asked the format of the submission.  The problem with this one was that 2400 points out two different kinds of submissions, and it's not clear if they mean CRF or the regular sequence listing, and if it's possible to submit two different copies.

Any tips on these anyone?  They will change these soon, so it won't hurt to offer help to a few of us.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: LessStressedOut on 08-11-05 at 05:37 pm
I just took my first practice test under comp simulation, the October 2003 exam. I scored 82%. I'm doing the pat bar review and I swear there wasn't one question on it that was like some of the really tough bastard questions from earlier exams. For that matter, there wasn't any question I would call overly wordy.

There were very few deadline questions compared to practice volume.

Still need to review what I did wrong but the other thing I noticed is that of the 5 questions I went back and reviewed with time remaining in every single circumstance I changed it from the right answer to the wrong answer...

Will definitely work on my search ability. The other thing I noticed is that this exam had wording much much closer to the MPEP than questions in the study material. In most cases, identical at least as to primary terminology. There was only one question I couldn't elimiate any answers, and each answer came from a different section, but wording was exact so I was able to eliminate within a couple minutes.

Finally,... I get really tired towards the end. After about 75 questions, even with a one hour break in between, my eyes were crossing. I try to get through all the questions in 2 hours 30min so that I can review marked questions, that worked the first section, but second section I ended with only 15ish minutes left. Luckily the afternoon section had more questions that were no brainers.

I'm pretty encouraged, when you start studying for this it all looks like a bottomelss chasm.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: StressedOut on 08-11-05 at 05:48 pm
<<<I remember a freak question that asked something like: what is the latest you can enter chapter 2 and still enter all national stages in all countries?  And the answer choices were bizarre, like 36 months, 30 months, 20 months, 19 months, etc.  and I had no clue, since I was expecting 22 months. Anyone remember this and how to tackle it? I have read 1800 and still am not clear on the answer.>>>

19 months. There is a flowchart that details the fact that there are basically 2 types of countries. The first type allows 30 months before entering the national stage, the second 20 months. In order to enter the national stage in a second type country at 30months, you must enter a demand for preliminary examination (chapter 2) at 19 months, 3 months after the ISA is done.

There are some tough PCT questions but that one is actually pretty easy because they thought it important enough to chart.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Testtaker on 08-11-05 at 05:59 pm
LessStressedOut, one thing that I thought I might suggest and something that might help you when you're getting tired during the last half of the exam is a trick I discovered when sitting for the CA bar.  

After lunch I took 1 1/2 tablets of caffeine pills about 10 minutes prior to re-entering the exam.  My tolerance for caffeine is fairly high so 1 200 mg tablet would probably work for most people unless you can't handle caffeine at all.  It's as good as coffee without the disadvantage of having to go to the bathroom constantly.  

At the risk of offering too much information I passed the exam last week without having to take a single break during the afternoon and didn't get even a little tired.   If you're unaccustomed to taking caffeine it might be a good idea to do practice exams with it if you think you'll take caffeine for the actual exam.  My two cents worth, take 'em or leave 'em.    

Title: contribution and plug
Post by: Hee Kim on 08-11-05 at 08:21 pm
First a contribution, then a little plug for my Ebay Auction:

The question where the inventor's name is Tribell appeared verbatim on the exam I took on August 9, 2005, which was the same exam that Kay took.


Also, I'm selling my PLI patent bar kit. I took the exam on August 9, 2005 and I passed it on my first try.

I am listing it on Ebay starting at 4:30 PM PDT, which I am assuming is 7:30 EST. Bidding starts at $9.99!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6972568934

It includes the updated MPEP 8.2 and Updated Patware Software 8.4.

Please feel free to email me with questions.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Memory Man on 08-12-05 at 01:15 am
Hi Stressed: thanks for the info on PCT.  With your tip, I also found a section in 1843 that mentions the exact number.  Thanks again.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: StressedOut on 08-12-05 at 02:12 pm
<<<My two cents worth, take 'em or leave 'em. >>>

My rule in life, always try advice if it is remotely reasonable, if it doesn't work for me, then discard it :). Will pickup some pills asap and try it, if it works I owe you substantially since the drag on me mentally towards the end was pretty significant. In any case, appreciate the advice.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: I passed! on 08-12-05 at 02:55 pm
Well, since I benefited quite a bit from this thread, I thought I might chip in with my 2 cents:

<>

Now on to the test itself. The first half had no PCT questions, a few appeal and reexam questions, but mostly just questions on the "old" topics. Follow the advice of the people here, do the 2003 exams. Over and over again, until you can totally understand EACH and EVERY question. I know I missed at least 1 question from the 10/2003 exam. I would say overall there are at least 25 repeats questions. Also some of the questions were from even older tests I think. I don't remember how many questions or from which year, but I definitely recognized some of the questions. So if you have time, try to do some older exams as well. I did exams as far back as 2000.

The 2nd half was harder. I barely finished on time. There were maybe 10 PCT questions, and more appeal and reexam questions. It still had some old questions though.

Now I will mention some of the specific exam questions, since one of the previous posters confirmed that it's not against USPTO policy to discuss specific questions.

-There's a question on VELCRO trademark being used. Should it be rejected?

-Divisional reissue being used to correct inventorship/claims.

-There's the question on the computer processor and memory with up to 1 GB of RAM from the 2003 exam.

-There's a biotech question that really deals with obviousness/anticipation.

-There's a question on a guy trying to patent a clock/fan/etc with different dimensions from the reference. Is it OK?

-A patent of a paper airplane with aluminum foil (I think) wings. The prior art is a plane covered with aluminum I think. Is it patentable?

-There's the question with the guy trying to patent how to walk across the street.

-Can part of assignment record be open to the public? I think it's no.

-Who can protest? Up till what time?

-If there's an improper new ground of rejection by the examiner, what should you do?

-A guy patented a phone as a design patent in spain, later modifid it and then filed a divisional design patent in the US, what can happen? I think the answer might be the previous patent can be used as prior art.

-Who is entitled to having apps filed at the USPTO as an RO? Answer is US nationals or residents. What happens if the filers are not US nationals or residents? There are at least 2 questions on this.

-Improper multiple dependent claims. Know where the examples are in the MPEP so you can look.

-Can a German app that is unexamined be used as "patent" in 102d?

I didn't get a PTA or plant app question. That's all the questions I can remember right now. I found the MPEP to be VERY helpful. I didn't know the MPEP inside out, but I was still able to find most of the specific answers. The key is knowing in which chapter to look. So you should at least become familiar with the MPEP to the point that if I give you a topic, you can jump into that chapter without having to go through the Index. Also the MPEP "find" was pretty fast.

Well, good luck to all future test takers!

P.S. I am assuming that I should just wait for the USPTO to do the moral character review now, is that right?



Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Studying_hard on 08-13-05 at 10:39 am
Quote

P.S. I am assuming that I should just wait for the USPTO to do the moral character review now, is that right?




When your name appears on one of the published OED list s (go to the following)

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/gcounsel/oed.htm

click on Notice of Names of Persons
Seeking Registration to Practice in Patent Cases

the header will indicate the end date of the comment period (approx. 6 weeks from official notification that you passed).  After that date your name will be placed in the register, with your reg. no.  However, to gain access to your name and reg. no.  (as Patento pointed out), you may need to use the Advanced Search, as the list of registered attys/agents is updated weekly, or bi-weekly.  Eventually your name, etc. will be part of the register that has been extracted as of whatever date is indicated when you click on
Search for a Patent Attorney or Agent



Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Testtaker on 08-16-05 at 08:56 pm
List is out.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Yeah! on 08-17-05 at 09:58 am
Took the exam on 8/15/05 (and passed!). I agree with Guest (reply 722).  About 20 of the exam questions were repeats from the 2003 and 2002 exams. I thought the fact pattern questions were longer than previous exams.  Lots of reexam and appeal questions.  Also, I didn't know about the way to overcome the "find" problem until today...so it took me a lot longer to look stuff up in the MPEP.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Memory Man on 08-17-05 at 07:26 pm
I passed the exam solidly today and I have to say thanks for the folks who contributed information here, it was very valuable to get tips.  I will return some wisdom here... I think they are phasing out the 'fixed' exams, and going to 'generated' ones.

There were far less duplicates, and the questions were different from what the previous posts in the last week or two have been stating.  There were still some duplicates, maybe 15-20, but they are getting rare.  I did get a question on multiplicity of claims.   But, for example, no Velcro question, no multiple dependent claims, etc.  I had a few questions harping on the same bizarre details of the appeals process, rehashed in a lot of different ways.  If you miss one, you miss them all.

The test is getting harder from what I can tell, and what saved me was memorizing a lot of the nitpicky rules so I could easily spot them.  This involves reading the MPEP over and over.  I hope the USPTO starts publishing model exams, or it's going to be very difficult to pass the first time.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Smile Child on 08-18-05 at 12:21 pm
Quote
<<<I remember a freak question that asked something like: what is the latest you can enter chapter 2 and still enter all national stages in all countries?  And the answer choices were bizarre, like 36 months, 30 months, 20 months, 19 months, etc.  and I had no clue, since I was expecting 22 months. Anyone remember this and how to tackle it? I have read 1800 and still am not clear on the answer.>>>

19 months. There is a flowchart that details the fact that there are basically 2 types of countries. The first type allows 30 months before entering the national stage, the second 20 months. In order to enter the national stage in a second type country at 30months, you must enter a demand for preliminary examination (chapter 2) at 19 months, 3 months after the ISA is done.

There are some tough PCT questions but that one is actually pretty easy because they thought it important enough to chart.


*** QQ** I thought the question said the latest to enter Chapter II which includes national stage.  My understanding is the old PCT Article 39(a) says demand had to be at 19 months and then 30 months to enter national stage or if no demand, then 20 months to enter.  Effective April 1, 2002, national stage must be entered within 30 months (regardless whether demand was made or not).  In the US, it is 30 months, regardless whether demand made or not.  Did I get this wrong?  Please provide comments.  ****  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: V on 08-18-05 at 05:54 pm
[<There were far less duplicates, and the questions were different from what the previous posts in the last week or two have been stating. There were still some duplicates, maybe 15-20, but they are getting rare. I did get a question on multiplicity of claims. But, for example, no Velcro question, no multiple dependent claims, etc. I had a few questions harping on the same bizarre details of the appeals process, rehashed in a lot of different ways. If you miss one, you miss them all.>]

Actually, I think you can find old posts saying what you say. It appears that the questions you receive are pulled randomly from pools based on difficulty. Like anything that's random, how many recent questions you receive will vary greatly. Different people have posted in the same week, having just returned from the tests, that they received 20 or 40 similar questions. I think it is luck of the draw...

The question to ask is whether they are all based on the same material. I don't care if it's a different question as long as it's testing the same basic material. If, however, we suddenly see very obscure questions from previously untested material, there is a problem.

[<*** QQ** I thought the question said the latest to enter Chapter II which includes national stage. My understanding is the old PCT Article 39(a) says demand had to be at 19 months and then 30 months to enter national stage or if no demand, then 20 months to enter. Effective April 1, 2002, national stage must be entered within 30 months (regardless whether demand was made or not). In the US, it is 30 months, regardless whether demand made or not. Did I get this wrong? Please provide comments. **** >]

You are right as to what you wrote to a point. Treaties are habitually followed as countries please to follow them, including the US. In this case, the PCT Article was changed and the US conformed to the change but not every country has. So... It all depends on what your question asked. If it asked the latest you can enter chapter 2 and still enter every national stage, the answer is 19 months.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Vanessa on 08-19-05 at 09:42 am
This might be a stupid question, but I'm taking the test soon, so I'm going to ask.

On the old tests (mainly, April 15, 2003 Q#37), the answer is that a small entities fee for filing a request for continued examination is reduced.  However, I'm pretty sure that 509.02 states that this fee is not reduced.  What gives?  Has this rule changed or are my eyes just going funny because I've been staring at this double column print for too many months?

BTW, Memory Man, how do you know you passed 'solidly?'  Does it give percent now if you pass?

Also, thanks to all those who have posted advice.  It's extremely helpful.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Vanessa on 08-19-05 at 09:42 am
This might be a stupid question, but I'm taking the test soon, so I'm going to ask.

On the old tests (mainly, April 15, 2003 Q#37), the answer is that a small entities fee for filing a request for continued examination is reduced.  However, I'm pretty sure that 509.02 states that this fee is not reduced.  What gives?  Has this rule changed or are my eyes just going funny because I've been staring at this double column print for too many months?

BTW, Memory Man, how do you know you passed 'solidly?'  Does it give percent now if you pass?

Also, thanks to all those who have posted advice.  It's extremely helpful.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Anthony Topper on 08-19-05 at 11:16 am
You have a legitimate concern for confusion, but you read 509.02 too narrowly (remember another section may preclude it). Yes, 509.02 2nd paragraph states that all other fees (other than those just mentioned) are not reduced. It is also true that 35 USC 41(a) and (b) are those requests mentioned which are primarily entitled to fee reduction. Thus, it is reasonable to deduce the exception (no fee reduction) applies to everything else.  BUT 35 USC 132(b) says “The Direct shall prescribe regulations to provide for the continued examination of applications … and shall provide a 50 percent reduction for small entities … under section [35 USC] 41(h)(1)…” See MPEP 706.07(h) which sets the lengthy rules for RCE.

As a matter of equity, continuations, RCE, CPA, divisional, etc continued examinations should reflect the same fee structure as original filings. The statute logically ensures this. It was part of the American Inventors Protection Act (AIPA, Nov 29, 1999).


Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: fingers crossed on 08-19-05 at 11:30 am
Quote
This might be a stupid question, but I'm taking the test soon, so I'm going to ask.

On the old tests (mainly, April 15, 2003 Q#37), the answer is that a small entities fee for filing a request for continued examination is reduced.  However, I'm pretty sure that 509.02 states that this fee is not reduced.  What gives?  Has this rule changed or are my eyes just going funny because I've been staring at this double column print for too many months?


CFR 1.17(e)
To request continued examination pursuant to § 1.114:
By a small entity (§1.27(a))
$385.00
By other than a small entity
$770.00

509.02 paragraph 3
Fees which are not reduced include petition and processing fees (other than revival), 37 CFR 1.17(h)-(k), document supply fees, 37 CFR 1.19, certificate of correction fees, 37 CFR 1.20(a), request for reexamination fees, 37 CFR 1.20(c), miscellaneous fees and charges, 37 CFR 1.21, and international application fees, 37 CFR 1.445

Non-reduced fees apply to CFR 1.17 sections h-k, request for continued examination is under section e.

Are you by chance confusing "request for continued examination" (RCE) with "request for reexamination"?  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Vanessa on 08-19-05 at 12:33 pm
Yes.  Thanks for you help.  How could I miss that?      

Have you taken the exam yet?  If I'm scoring in the mid 80's on old tests without using the MPEP, is that good enough to pass?  Not sure if this is possible, but I think I've studied so much I'm starting to do worse.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: fingers crossed on 08-19-05 at 03:19 pm
Quote
Have you taken the exam yet?  If I'm scoring in the mid 80's on old tests without using the MPEP, is that good enough to pass?  Not sure if this is possible, but I think I've studied so much I'm starting to do worse. /quote]

I took and passed the exam several months ago.  A better gauge of whether or not you are prepared enough is how quickly can you locate the answer, in an electronic version of the MPEP, to all questions on the old exams.  There are two key points to passing the exam, time management and how fast you can look things up in the MPEP.  To help with time management, you need to know about how long it will take you to look up an answer in the MPEP.  Remember each question is only worth one point, so it is better to spend your time looking up several fast answers than to spend it looking up one long tedious answers.  Being comfortable with the electronic MPEP and knowing what each chapter covers will significantly reduce your search time.

For example, people are reporting around 20 repeat questions per test or 10 per section.  Lets be generous and say there are an additional 15 questions per section that you can easily answer off the top of you head.  That leaves 25 questions per section that you will either need to look up because you have no idea what the answer is or will want to look up to verify your answer.  If it takes you an hour and a half to carefully read through all the questions and mark the best answer, that leaves you an hour and a half to look up 25 answers, or approximately 3 minutes and 36 seconds per answer.  Can you find answers that quickly?  

When I took the exam I had at least 20 questions per section that I wanted to double check on and 10 questions that had really obscure topics or unusual fact patterns.  By leaving the obscure questions for last, I maximized the number of look ups.  The other thing that helped was jotting down the topic for each question that I was unsure of, e.g. appeal, reissue, obviousness, etc.  Then I searched by topic and found the answer to several questions at once.


Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Vanessa on 08-19-05 at 07:14 pm
Great suggestions, thank you (especially leaving the questions I have no clue about to look up at the end).  I think I've become pretty efficient at looking up answers in the MPEP from memory and by using the index.  

Currently, I have a PDF MPEP that I use.  But it's one big file and quite a nightmare to search.  Is it true that the exam makes it possible to go to indexed chapter sections just by clicking on them?  That would be so much faster.

Also, do you know anything about the searchable MPEP freezing.  Unfortunately, I am computer inept, so this is bit of a worry for me.

Right now I'm just so bored from looking at it over and over again.  

 
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Search on 08-21-05 at 12:48 pm
As requested by PatBar we have removed references to their services.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Search on 08-21-05 at 12:53 pm
One more question. When using one exam simulation if I accidentally hit the explorer Back button instead of the software Previous button it wipes all the answers, so I write down every answer on a piece of scratch paper.

Same on the USPTO version? Do I need to keep a record of my answers? Maybe smart in case the computer crashes?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: b4sunrise on 08-21-05 at 01:39 pm
Just passed yesterday. Here are some thoughts I'd like to share:

It was a little harder than the Oct 2003 test, with about 20 repeats and many appeal, reexam questions. But I think if you have done the 2002, 2003 tests a couple of times and know the answers well, you will be fine. I was only getting 70-80% on the old exams without looking the MPEP before taking the exam.

Most of the "new" questions mentioned here and in the other "sample questions" thread were on the exam, such as the plane with foil wing, partial asignment, divisional reissue to correct inventorship, etc. Seems they have a limited pool of both old and new questions at this time so they test them again and again.

So, don't worry too much and just do it! Good luck to everybody who's taking the test soon and thanks so much for people who contributed to the wonderful forum.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 08-21-05 at 01:48 pm
Requested by Pat.Bar to remove references to their services.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: LSO on 08-21-05 at 07:49 pm
<<<divisional reissue to correct inventorship>>>

This has me stymied. What exactly does the question ask? Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: b4sunrise on 08-21-05 at 09:35 pm
The question was a patent has two co-inventors. Claims 1-5 are by inventor A, claims 6-10 are by inventor B. How do you get a patent that only has claims 1-5?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: fingers crossed on 08-22-05 at 08:58 am
Quote
Great suggestions, thank you (especially leaving the questions I have no clue about to look up at the end).  I think I've become pretty efficient at looking up answers in the MPEP from memory and by using the index.  

Currently, I have a PDF MPEP that I use.  But it's one big file and quite a nightmare to search.  Is it true that the exam makes it possible to go to indexed chapter sections just by clicking on them?  That would be so much faster.

Also, do you know anything about the searchable MPEP freezing.  Unfortunately, I am computer inept, so this is bit of a worry for me.

Right now I'm just so bored from looking at it over and over again.  

  



The MPEP provided during the exam is broken up by chapter and is closest to Adobe version 5.0.  When you click on the MPEP button you get a blank page with a drop down menu at the top center from which you select the chapter you want, including all the appendices and index.  Once you select a chapter the bookmarks for that particular chapter become available on the left hand side of the screen.  If you go through the tutorial http://www.prometric.com/demos/uspto/starthere.htm there are several screen shots of what the MPEP will look like.  

The search function on the exam is very similar to the search function in Adobe 5.0, do NOT practice using Adobe 6.0.  Adobe 6.0 has completely different searching capabilities, e.g. 6.0 provides hyperlinks to all the occurances of the term you are searching where as 5.0 finds the first occurance, then you hit "find next" (or the "find" button again) to locate the next occurance etc.  The chapters are searched individually, e.g. if you open chapter 7, it will only search in chapter 7.  For practice, it may help to download and save the MPEP in individual chapters from the USPTO website.

When you open the MPEP to a particular chapter, it will stay on that chapter as you go back and forth between the exam and the MPEP as long as you are on the same question.  As soon as you move to another question, then the MPEP becomes the initial blank page with the chapter drop down menu.  Also, you will be hitting the resizing button every time you click on a bookmark or change chapters.  For some reason it defaults to showing the "fit page" on the screen rather than the "fit width" size.  

If the computer freezes during your exam, immediately get help from the Prometric staff.  The answers that you mark are automatically saved and the staff can move you to a different computer.


Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: ta on 08-22-05 at 05:26 pm
hi all:

just look and passed the exam today, according to my "preliminary results."  i wanted to thank everyone here for the helpful hints, like using acrobat 5.0 instead of 6.0 and focusing on the 2003 exams.  they really helped me make the most of my limited study time.

as for the exam itself, i had about 30 repeat questions, mostly from the 2003 exams.  afternoon was much harder than the morning--only finished w/ 5 minutes to spare in the afternoon.  many of the questions that were mentioned by others were on it (e.g., VELCRO, toy plane w/ foil wing, divisional reissue, etc.).  i haven't read that far back on this thread, so forgive me if this is a repeat, but one question that had me stumped for a while was what the examiner should do upon discovering relevant prior art *after* issuing a notice of allowance.  i eventually found the answer (i think in 700, under "rejection after allowance), but it took me quite a while b/c i was digging through the chapters on allowance and reexam.  there were about 10 PCT questions, but mostly on old topics such as entering national stage, claiming priority, and determining 102(e) dates (e.g., no question on article 19 vs. article 34 amendments).

facilities were excellent, and included my own little cubicle and a fast, reliable computer.  i took it at one penn plaza in nyc.

finally, i wanted to give some tips for people who might be in the same boat as me.  i have almost 2 years of prosecution experience as a technical advisor at a firm, but never got around to taking the test b/c of various scheduling conflicts.  so the work experience provided the advantage of a nice knowledge base to build off of, but it also added the disadvantage of very little free time to study.  from start to finish, my preparation for the exam took about 2 weeks, which is all the time i can reasonably take off from work w/o screwing things up.

so for those w/ at least a year of prosecution experience but very little free time, here is what i did:

1) spent 7 days going through the 5-day PLI course at home.  took me a long time b/c i went through the reading pretty slowly, making sure i understood most of it and taking my time w/ the practice questions.  also replayed the parts of the lectures that i didn't understand.

2) skipped the claim drafting and amendment/response exercises of the PLI course, but listening to the lecture on claim concepts, rules, and jargon.

3) did and reviewed the 2003 exams very carefully.

4) did as many other exams as i had time for (in my case, 3).  this provided valuable practice w/ the MPEP, and as well as some level  comfort since i was passing all of them w/ a decent margin.

5) redid the 2003 exams, reviewing the questions i got wrong or was unsure about.

total study time was about 90 hours.  for those of you w/ substantial prosecution experience but very little free time, an approach like mine, adapted to suit your personal style and comfort level w/ the material, will probably get you through.

thanks again for all the great advice and info, and best of luck to those who are studying.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 08-22-05 at 09:00 pm
Quote
The question was a patent has two co-inventors. Claims 1-5 are by inventor A, claims 6-10 are by inventor B. How do you get a patent that only has claims 1-5?



The question probably cannot be answered without listing the answers
given on the exam to chose from.  There are lots of ways to end
up with two patents with the claims separated as indicated.

Most likely the question is testing the point that for a continuation
of any type there must be at least one inventor in common between the
parent and the child application.  Simply filing a continuation with
6-10 after canceling 1-5 from the parent will not work.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: ta on 08-22-05 at 09:32 pm
Quote
The question was a patent has two co-inventors. Claims 1-5 are by inventor A, claims 6-10 are by inventor B. How do you get a patent that only has claims 1-5?


i don't think there are that many ways to do this when the claims have already issued.  the answer i chose was something like "file two related reissue applications, one of which is a divisional of the other."
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: V on 08-23-05 at 12:19 pm
<<<Most likely the question is testing the point that for a continuation
of any type there must be at least one inventor in common between the
parent and the child application.  Simply filing a continuation with
6-10 after canceling 1-5 from the parent will not work. >>>

I'm confused by your answer. I could see your point if you cancelled 1-5 and then filed a continuation with 1-5. Cancelling the claim in the parent then destroys common inventorship (since the parent now only has 6-10 which are claims by a different inventor).

But if you have 6-10 (by canceling 1-5) and then file a continuation on 6-10, seems fine to me.

There is a past question that asks something like this. One person gets in a fight with another, starts licensing to everyone, inventor of one set of claims wants to split his claims out in a reissue. The answer is something like he is screwed, but only because the other answers gave no alternative and appropriate method to do it. It was half a reissue question and half an ethical question
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: LessStressedOut on 08-23-05 at 02:48 pm
The question was a patent has two co-inventors. Claims 1-5 are by inventor A, claims 6-10 are by inventor B. How do you get a patent that only has claims 1-5?  



i don't think there are that many ways to do this when the claims have already issued.  the answer i chose was something like "file two related reissue applications, one of which is a divisional of the other."


I don't know what the answer choices were but if you chose that answer what was the error being corrected? I would instinctively shy away from it because of how joint inventors are treated. In other words, it is not an error to have two different inventors who solely contributed to different claims in a a patent. Inventors may have different levels of contribution, may work seperately, etc. and must just be connected in some way.  So, even if one is the invention and the other is an improvement of the invention, both being seperately patentable, provided the examiner does not require restriction that's fine.

The other thought that springs to mind is that if they elect to create a divisional rather than it being a requirement, they subject themselves to a double patenting issue assuming they aren't completely distinct inventions (nonstatutory double patenting for obvious variants). Unless they fall under the category that is held in abeyance if allowed awaiting the divisional's completions to be remerged.

Again, no idea the answer choices and maybe that was the best but it raises all sorts of issues.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: ta on 08-23-05 at 03:32 pm
wow, who knew that this question would prove to be so fascinating?  ok, here is the original question to the best of my recollection:

a patent containing claims 1-10 has issued.  the subject matter of claims 1-5 was invented by inventor A, who has assigned his rights to your client, company C.  the subject matter of claims 6-10 was invented by inventor B, who refuses to cooperate with company C unless he is the sole named inventor of his own patent.  company C wishes to divide the claims such that one patent contains only claims 1-5 and has inventor A as the sole inventor, and another patent contains claims 6-10 and has inventor B as the sole inventor.  how should you advise your client?
a) this is impossible.
b) use a certificate of correction to cancel claims 6-10 and remove inventor B from the patent, and file a divisional application on claims 6-10 listing B as the inventor.
c) file a reissue, cancel claims 6-10, and remove B as an inventor.
d) file a reissue of the original application along with a divisional reissue, cancel claims 1-5 and remove inventor A from the first reissue, move claims 6-10 and inventor B to the divisional reissue.
e) file two simultaneous reissue applications from the same patent, cancel claims 1-5 and remove inventor A from the first reissue, cancel claims 6-10 and remove inventor B from the second reissue.

so i went w/ d).  as for your questions, MPEP 1451, under "divisional reissue applications," says "applicant may initiate a division of the claims by filing more than one reissue application . . . The multiple reissue applications which are filed may contain different groups of claims from among the original patent claims, or some of the reissue applications may contain newly added groups . . . there is no requirement that the claims of the multiple reissue applications be independent and distinct from one another; if they are not independent and distinct from one another, the examiner must apply the appropriate double patenting rejections."  

the "error" might be that applicant claimed more than he had a right to claim (e.g., if inventor B refuses to be acknowledged as a co-inventor of the patent, you have no right to claim his invention).  but really, if the MPEP expressly gives applicant this right and has a whole section describing how to do it, who would ever question whether there is a valid "error" in this scenario?

as for the obviousness-type double-patenting rejection, of course that is possible, especially it is provided for in the passage quoted above.  but that's what terminal disclaimers are for.  almost all cont's and div's filed on the applicant's initiative are subject to a terminal disclaimer, as they should be.  it is not something to make a big deal out of, or even rightfully call an "issue."  certainly, it should not stop you from executing your client's wishes and dealing with a hostile inventor in the scenario described above.

honestly, i spent about 5 minutes on this question so my recollection might be off and my answer may be wrong.  but the fact that the MPEP provides for this scenario seems to suggest that the divisional reissue mechanism was the point of the question.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: AtticusIP on 08-23-05 at 08:52 pm
Hey all,

I really appreciate all of the time that has been spent creating this thread...so much great advice.  I take the exam next week but unfortunately the monitor at the test site is an "estimated 14 inches diagonal" ~ not so great.

Could someone who has recently taken the exam specifiy whether the division bar/line between the MPEP chapter bookmarks on the left and the chapter content on the right is adjustable during the exam?

Further, it is my understanding that once you leave a question, your spot in the MPEP is lost such that when you return to the question, you start from scratch with the MPEP chapter drop down list.  Is this correct?  If so, I'll have to write down where I was working if I decide to move on without verifying an answer...

Thanks in advance (like payment for USPTO fees) for your responses,

AtticusIP

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: LessStressedOut on 08-23-05 at 11:38 pm
It's funny you point out 1451 because it also says:

<If any one of the several reissue applications by itself
fails to correct an error in the original patent as required by 35 U.S.C. 251 but is otherwise in condition for allowance, the Office may suspend action in the allowable application until all issues are resolved as to at least one of the remaining reissue applications. The Office may also merge two or more of the multiple reissue applications into a single reissue application. No reissue application containing only unamended patent claims and not correcting an error in the original patent will be passed to issue by itself.>

So I think it can be done as you say but there must be SOME error in the patent that must be corrected. It's the basic criteria for reissue. There seems to be an exception in that you can have a continuation that does not have an error as long as ONE of the applications has an error.


It obviously isn't clear and I'd bet dollars to donughts this is an experimental question. It definitely boils down to a divisional or 'impossible'.  We know from previous questione that one inventor can license or assign the entire invention so I would probably go with impossible in the absence of SOME correctable error. Of course, you never know what the rule is until the next time the court interprets it.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: DO on 08-24-05 at 12:51 am
Quote
as for the exam itself, i had about 30 repeat questions, mostly from the 2003 exams.  afternoon was much harder than the morning--only finished w/ 5 minutes to spare in the afternoon.  many of the questions that were mentioned by others were on it (e.g., VELCRO, toy plane w/ foil wing, divisional reissue, etc.).



TA,
Thank you very much for your insight and everyone else's on this thread.  You have been very helpful.

I was wondering if you could expand on the questions you said you had regarding VELCRO and the toy plane.  

As for the VELCRO one, I know Trademarks are not allowed in claims (see 706.03(d)) but they ARE allowed in the specification (see 608.01(v)).  Was the question asking whether it was allowed in a particular area of the application?

What was the toy plane/ foil question regarding?

I am taking the test in a couple of weeks and I really appreciate your help.

Thanks!
Title: Passed on Monday!
Post by: csb on 08-24-05 at 06:43 am
I wanted to thank the board, especially this thread.  I took the exam in Newport News, VA on Monday and passed.  While it's nice to find out immediately, those 20 sec. or so, listening to the computer churn, were certainly nerve-wracking!  Because other posts were so helpful, I thought I'd post my recollections.  I'm not sure how much I remember ... it already seems like a lifetime ago!

First, studying the 2003 exams is the best advice this thread has.  I had probably 35 repeats or close repeats, and easily 20 of those were from 2003.  A little heavier on the Oct. exam.  I also had the PRG software, and I recognized several questions from there.  I assume those are 2002 and earlier questions.

Second, like several others, I noticed that a few of the repeats were questions that the PTO had accepted more than one answer as correct.  The one that sticks out in my head was the Lancer electric toothbrush question.  If I remember correctly, the two correct answers were that the patent didn't specify a power source, and there was something about the placement of the power switch.  The wording was different on the exam I took Monday -- I think in the original question, the patent specified the placement of the power switch, whereas in the current question, the application specified the placement.  (I haven't gone back and looked at the question, so I could be wrong on this.  Point is ... read carefully!)

I had a lot of PCT on the 2d half, maybe one question on the 1st half.  4 or 5 restriction questions, which surprised me a little.  A question about if you have an application pending and call "an examiner" about a question and want to get more information, who do you talk to?  I answered the primary examiner, but I don't know.   A question about whether a request for information was considered an office action for PTA.  Oh, and a LOT of all are correct except ... and which is NOT correct ...

That's about it.  I couldn't really tell which questions were beta and which weren't.  

So what happens next?  I checked the latest list, and I wasn't on there, so I guess I'll be up next week.

Hope this helps, and good luck to all!  Again, thank you, Board!  I couldn't have passed without everyone's advice!

csb
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: ta on 08-24-05 at 09:04 am
Quote

<If any one of the several reissue applications by itself
fails to correct an error in the original patent as required by 35 U.S.C. 251 but is otherwise in condition for allowance, the Office may suspend action in the allowable application until all issues are resolved as to at least one of the remaining reissue applications. The Office may also merge two or more of the multiple reissue applications into a single reissue application. No reissue application containing only unamended patent claims and not correcting an error in the original patent will be passed to issue by itself.>



i agree that it's not very clear, and that it's probably an experimental question.  i forget whether the "impossible" choice said it was impossible b/c there was no way to file multiple reissues off the same application or impossible w/ no reason specified.  the answer would probably depend on the wording.

however, i'd like to point out that you may be misreading the quoted passage.  let's think about the sequence for a reissue application for a second.  the request for reissue is filed by applicant, and is not approved unless there is a valid correctable error.  that approval results in an actual reissue application.  i think the passage is saying that, given a valid reissue application that is already being prosecuted, if the prosecution fails to correct the error that was originally presented, it will not be allowed.  

in addition, i believe that "unamended claims" means the claims have been completely untouched.  there are reissue applications that do nothing but cancel (or add) claims, thereby changing the scope of the claimed invention, which is an appropriate correction of error.  i think the passage is saying that, at the end of prosecution, the claims are allowable but are in the same form as before, and no error has been corrected elsewhere in the application (e.g., a priority claim), the reissue application will not be allowed.

so i think that it's possible that the reissue application may not be approved in the first place due to lack of error, as you originally suggested, but that is not the point of the passage.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: ta on 08-24-05 at 09:17 am
Quote

TA,
Thank you very much for your insight and everyone else's on this thread.  You have been very helpful.

I was wondering if you could expand on the questions you said you had regarding VELCRO and the toy plane.  

As for the VELCRO one, I know Trademarks are not allowed in claims (see 706.03(d)) but they ARE allowed in the specification (see 608.01(v)).  Was the question asking whether it was allowed in a particular area of the application?

What was the toy plane/ foil question regarding?

I am taking the test in a couple of weeks and I really appreciate your help.

Thanks!

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: ta on 08-24-05 at 09:30 am
sorry, my browser spazzed and submitted my reply w/ just the quote.  anyways, here's what i remember:

VELCRO:  a claim in a pending app was amended to define "a VELCRO fastener" as one of the elements.  the spec describes the use of a VELCRO fastener in the invention, but doesn't describe the structure of such a fastener.  how should the examiner address the claim?

the answer i chose said it should be rejected for indefiniteness, b/c applicant is relying solely on the trademark to define the element, without reciting any specific structural limitations.  another choice was that trademarks are never allowed in claims, which i think is wrong b/c they're fine as long as that element is well-defined by other supporting structure.

toy plane w/ foil wing:  applicant claims a toy plane whose wings are covered in aluminum foil.  the spec describes a toy plane whose wings are covered in foil but whose body isn't.  reference discloses a plane that is covered entirely in chewing gum wrapper, which includes aluminum foil and another material.  claim is rejected, and applicant responds by arguing that covering only the wings in foil provides useful aerodynamic properties, and therefore the claimed invention is distinguishable from the reference.  how should the examiner respond?

i said the examiner should maintain the rejection b/c the claim is broad enough to include a plane that is covered entirely in aluminum foil (limitations present in the spec will not be read into the claim if not expressly recited).
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: AtticusIP on 08-24-05 at 01:15 pm
Hello again,

One more quick question for those who recently took the exam...

Does "Alt-TAB" work to switch between the MPEP window and the test window?

Thanks for your answers,

AtticusIP
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Glad it's over on 08-24-05 at 02:52 pm
I took the exam but did not get immediate results.   ???Study old exams and understand WHY the answers are the way they are.  Concepts are basically the same.

I did not have the reissue, wing foil, trademark questions.  I had lots of 700 and 2100 - 102 and 103 questions.  I had appeal questions - when given a new rejection from Board - what happens after one files amendment and rehearing, when to get amendment admitted, how to get new evidence in.........

The MPEP is easy to use online, better than the version I was practicing.  If you know what chapter to go to, use FIND, type in the word, hit FIND AGAIN to find it throughout the chapter.  

You can see the question and the MPEP but the test question remains on the screen the entire time.  Yes, if you move away from that question, MPEP is blank.  However, if you write down your questions and topics to search, then do the complete search at the end - like Q 3, 8, 12 on appeals, look up all the answers to save time.    

If you have read MPEP and understand it to know where to look things up when presented with new issue, it should not be a problem.  Good luck to all.  Glad it is over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Glad it's over on 08-24-05 at 04:09 pm
I meant I did not have the reissue question about inventors.  I had reissue questions presented in different ways.

Yes, you can adjust the MPEP with the chapter outline on the left side and the chapter material on the right side.  I usually adjusted it to 75%.  

If you get really stuck on a topic, go to the index and do a search.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Happy Happy Joy Joy on 08-24-05 at 11:52 pm
My summary:
Knowing how to search and familiarity with the MPEP  is most important. USPTO has added many questions that have not been seen before but are easy searches.
I think I could spot the experimental questions. There were roughly 10 questions that are fairly standard but key words have been substituted with equivalents that make it impossible to search unless you know what they are talking about. I can't recall at the moment but it would be as if they said 'make the application go faster' instead of using 'petition to make special'.
I did not understand the complaints about refresh rate until I tried doing the first question. Makes your eyes cross it's so bad until you get used to it. My mouse was ancient and erratic, made selecting from the MPEP drop down a chore. The software itself seems pretty well designed.

---I did not have the reissue, wing foil, trademark questions.---

Me either. No divisional reissue, no foil, no velcro.

---The MPEP is easy to use online, better than the version I was practicing. If you know what chapter to go to, use FIND, type in the word, hit FIND AGAIN to find it throughout the chapter. ---

<>

I had probably 30 repeats but that's from all of the questions over who knows how many years. From 2003 exam maybe 15 tops. Another 15 were slight variations or subtle twists on previous questions (but usually not different enough to make much difference). Lots of PCT.

USPTO in it's new questions no longer says 'All of the above.' or 'None of the above.' but uses the equivalent in a much wordier way that is easier to misread. Be careful to make sure you understand which it's saying.
I think I had basically the same test as Gladit'sover and CSB had.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Happy Happy Joy Joy on 08-25-05 at 12:04 am
I started to list a huge amount of questions I recall but they are repeats from other posts so here are the ones that I can't recall hearing about before.

1. Two PCT questions requiring you to know that the US went to 30 month national stage on April 1, 2002 and that any application entering the national stage after that date regardless of filing date may enter at 30 months. Two questions on this which had identical fact patterns except for the final line that contained the question.

2. The second question from the 'Questions I don't like' thread. It has an AND instead of an OR yet is still correct. Glad to have known that going in.

3.  One death of inventor question where the only possible correct answer was Barbara, the attorney who was legal representative in the living will. I was hung up a bit not remembering what a living will was. But the other answers were clearly wrong.

4. A question about amending the abstract. The answer is that the examiner will not supply one if it is absent.

6. One obviousness question in there that threw me for a loop because all the answers seemed incorrect. Only one involved involved teaching or motivation even though another answer was in better form but I went with the teaching answer.

9. Two questions on how to extend your patent life by deleting a claim of benefit. If you didn't realize the answer to the first was file an RCE the second question does it in the fact pattern and calls it 'proper'. But in the second question, which is tougher, you have to realize the 4/16 month deadlines, figure out they are exceeded, and realize that because the applicant removed the claim himself he cannot avail himself of adding the claim as unintentional (applicant gets screwed because a new ground of rejection is applied after he withdraws his claim and he has no way to put the claim back).

12. questions on entering the national stage. one had an answer of pay the fee because if you file with the USPTO as an RO you do not need to submit the application or wait for it to be transferred from IB.

13. One question on 102(e) with a date of 1998 so that the reference date of the patent is when it completed requirements under 371(c).

14. About 4 different questions on prior art. One dealt with declassified material (prima facie case established even if only under limited distribution).

16. The design question claiming priority to a foreign app. 6 months not 12.


20. Question on suspended practitoner. Tough one that I think has two answers that are not correct. USPTO apointing ad litem (search for ad litem produces nothing). There is a section you can find with search that basically says a suspended practitioner is the equivalent of a plague bearing peasant and lists a few of the choices.

This exam is harder than the 2003. Be familiar with the basics and know how to search.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: DONEdonedonedone on 08-25-05 at 12:13 am
One More

The answer, I think, was the examiner should submit a written request to the TC director to withdraw an application from issue due to unpatentability of claims.  2-3 choices listed the supervisory examiner being asked. Looking it up in MPEP the power to withdraw was delegated to the TC director and there was a passage in there about what to do if the TC Director is absent.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: G-man on 08-25-05 at 03:17 pm
Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this very helpful thread.

:)
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: AtticusIP on 08-29-05 at 04:35 pm
Hey all,
I just wanted to again express my appreciation for those of you who took the time to post here...I took the exam today and got the passing preliminary result screen and printout stating that official results will be sent to me in due course.  What a relief! (except for the "preliminary" nature of the results)...has anyone ever heard of getting passing preliminary results and then not getting passing official results?  If not, I hope I won't be the first!

Anyway, my take on the exam:

I won't bother with listing the questions, as they were represented very well by other recent posters...I didn't get the foil airplane question or the Velcro question.

For whatever reason, I wasn't prepared to forgoe the use of my digital watch...so when I had to lock it up in a locker minutes before the test I was a bit concerned...I followed the advice of others and spent about 5minutes making a pencil written answer sheet on the official scratch paper...if you have bad handwriting or the inability to properly space things on paper like me, I suggest folding the paper such that 6 question are placed in each resulting rectangle (with 7 in two of the sections)...it really helped me space out the ABCDE's and prevent undesired confusion between answer while in a hurry. ~ Further, I would suggest calculating/marking the correct "Time Remaining" next to the ABCDE's to as many questions as you can so you can best gauge where you are as the individual questions whiz by during the test.

Of course, know the 2003 exams in and out...it bears repeating.  One thing I noticed on my exam was that many of the 2003 type questions were very similar in the fact pattern (if not exact to the 2003 exam) but the question selection often would NOT include the answer you are conditioned to look for from your practicing the 2003 exams, but INSTEAD would append "None of the questions follow the Rules, MPEP..." ~ The lesson here is that if you don't know by heart whether EACH of the options in the 2003 exam questions was correct or not (and instead rely on recognizing the correct answer associated with the fact pattern) you will be bewildered for a moment while you look for the old answer...then you are left to research each of the other answers in the MPEP.  KNOW EACH 2003 ANSWER OPTION FOR BEING A CORRECT OR AN INCORRECT ANSWER.

My experience testing with Prometric was good overall.  The equipment was OK...about the search ability of the pdf MPEP:  If I remember correctly, when I used the "Find Again" button, I couldn't find any place to cancel the search...so I was sometimes just sittin there waiting for the search to complete after I would have otherwise cancelled the search when using the "Find" button.  Also, I had trouble searching from a particular place within a chapter.  For example, let's say I searched the 10th page of a chapter by opening the chapter, clicking on a bookmark taking me to the tenth page and pressing the find button...that worked OK...BUT, if I later tried to search the same chapter at page 8, I would click a bookmark to take me to page 8 and use the "Find" button...the result would be to find the next result beyond the search I previously performed...I got around this by switching questions, and reopening the MPEP chapter (resetting the chapter).

At my test site, I was given complimentary ear muffs for cancelling sound, 2 sharpened pencils, and the official multipage Prometric scratch paper.  The screen was a 17" CRT (with some reflective problems related to damaged coating)...I would suggest taking in some individual "eyeglass wipes" or something similar, and asking the proctor if you can first wipe the screen (your eyes will thank you in no time!)  The room was monitored by camera and microphone, and I had to sign in and out of the test area as I started the test, took the lunch break, and finished the exam.

So, that is my take...any further insight anyone has as to whether I should really celebrate would be appreciated!  Good luck to you who haven't yet endured the exam, but know that it isn't impossible and that proper preparation (especially the recent old exams) will all but carry you through...at least to get "preliminary passing results"!

ATTICUS
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Testtaker on 08-30-05 at 03:15 pm
Just thought I'd mention I've never heard of anyone getting the preliminary pass message and then not getting an official pass letter.  If you go the PTO website under OED you'll find the notice of passers getting the preliminary pass message upon completion of the exam if they scored the necessary 70% or better.  It also explains that if you didn't pass you'll get a message indicating your scored percentage (the value will of course be less then 70%) and that you'll receive results in due course.  If you pass you don't get a scored percentage.  Congratulations, looks like you passed.  

   
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: darth_razor on 09-01-05 at 06:06 am
I may be hallucinating but I believe I once saw a reference that stated the USPTO Bar aka Registration exam was the hardest (or toughest - is there a difference?) in the US. (It sure felt like it!). Can anyone confirm this and point me to the reference? I don't feel like going through 2 million + Google hits to find this again.
thanks
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: AtticusIP on 09-05-05 at 10:05 am
Hey all,

Just to let you know how fast results can be obtained...I took the exam on a monday (finishing in early afternoon), received preliminary passing results at the test site, and received official results by letter from the USPTO on Friday of the same week.

Atticus
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: mcm121 on 09-08-05 at 06:58 pm
I am taking the electronic exam Sunday.  I have one question yet to be answered: Is the "searchable" MPEP only searchable by chapter, or can you search the entire thing at once like a normal PDF file?

Please Advise.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 09-08-05 at 08:32 pm
within chapter

Quote
I am taking the electronic exam Sunday.  I have one question yet to be answered: Is the "searchable" MPEP only searchable by chapter, or can you search the entire thing at once like a normal PDF file?

Please Advise.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Phu Fighter on 09-09-05 at 06:52 pm
I've been lurking on this forum over the last couple of months and I wanted to say how much I've appreciated this forum.  

I took the exam today and I recieved my provisional pass!!!!!!

It was a marathon, and I wanted to write a brief recap

My thoughts were:
   1.  The first 50 are pretty easy and straight forward do all the 2002/2003 exams and it will be a pretty good gauge of what you will see.
   2.  The afternoon section was EXTREMELY DIFFICULT.  None of the exams really simulate how much harder the afternoon session is when compared to the morning session.
   2a.  Lots of appeal, rexam and PCT questions.  Plus obscure questions based on every other section.  The practice questions do a good job preparing to look stuff up, but the afternoon session had very detailed questions that had detailed fact patterns.
  2b.  The 102e flowchart and the 102e example timelines are key to getting the questions right.  I don't think I would gotten those questions without them.
   2c.  I had a bunch of new questions that I've never seen before including, Velco, Foil wing and the lever questions.
   3.  I think probably about 30-40 were repeats from previous years.

Hopefully this recap of the exam waspretty helpful.
   
Overall, I thought the Bar/bri materials did an incredible job of preparing me for the exam.  I thought the lectures, outlines and mini-review were spot on and really made the MPEP much more digestible.

Good luck to everyone else who is prepping for the exam
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Passed It!!! on 09-10-05 at 06:22 pm
THANK EVERYONE WHO GAVE INFORMATION ON THE FORUM! After 30,000 printed pages of review, 4359 cups of coffee, dreaming of 102's and 103's,  I took the exam today and got my preliminary pass!

I would like to add some more to this tread but its hard to since all the major things have already been discussed.

For anyone taking the test I only have 2 suggestions:

1)The BEST thing to do is go over the 2002 and 2003 exams to the point you know the answer to EVERY question and WHY they are correct.  Try to get to the point where no matter what question it is you instantly know what the answer is. There are TONS or repeats from these old exams.  

2)The other thing I would do is go through this thread from the beginning and take note of ALL the questions discussed by people who have already taken the exam because almost everyone of then is also in the exam (i.e. Velcro, foil plane, unduly multiplied, dead inventors, etc....).  Based on all the comments about the questions from the test in this thread, figure out EXACTLY where to go in the MPEP and review these particular areas heavily.  

If you follow these two suggestions you will have TONS of time to search for the stuff you are unsure of. This along with  having at least a basic understanding of all the other major topics, you shouldn't have any problem passing.

My last comment oi regarding the testing facility.  I've heard good things and nightmares on this thread about them.  Well I had a NiGHTMARE.  Particularly with the PC I was on.  The screen was about 14 inches diagonal and had terrible flicker.  In addition EVERY time I clicked the 'Find' button to search the MPEP the computer FROZE!  This happen THREE times in a row and I had to have the guy running the facility restart my computer all three times.  He also couldn't put me at another computer after i started the exam.  It really sucked.  So basically I had to take the entire exam WITHOUT the 'Find' feature!  On the plus side the guy made notes in my account regarding it and he said if I failed i would probably be able to retake it without a problem.  So if I had failed I would of had a free second go at it and it would have given me some additional time to study.  So if this happens to you don't stress too much about it.

Anyway,  thanks again to everyones helped on this and GOOD LUCK to everyone who hasn't taken it!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: mcm121 on 09-11-05 at 04:13 pm
I took the exam today and preliminarily got a 68, which fails.  Can the official results change to a pass considering that the official results take into account the 10 experimental questions, now requiring only 63 of 90 to pass?  Has anybody had this problem and found an answer?  

Please advise.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 09-11-05 at 06:27 pm
Quote
I took the exam today and preliminarily got a 68, which fails.  Can the official results change to a pass considering that the official results take into account the 10 experimental questions, now requiring only 63 of 90 to pass?  Has anybody had this problem and found an answer?  

Please advise.


Somewhere on this board there is discussion of this exact situation.
The answer is that 68 is a percentage and not the number of right
answers.  I would not expect this to be converted to a passing
score based on discarding the experimental questions.  You'll need
something to happen to a couple of the 90 questions that do count.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Humbled on 09-12-05 at 11:33 am
MCM 121 -- I feel your pain, I sat for the exam last Friday (9th) and got a score of 68.  The result page they gave us is worded in a confusing manner but the PTO website states this it provides a percentage.
My question:
1) Do they round up, i.e. - did I need one more correct or two?
2) I had two old exam questions for which there was more than one correct answer.  Do the prelim. results account for this?

thanks
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: ralphie on 09-12-05 at 12:55 pm
Quote
2b.  The 102e flowchart and the 102e example timelines are key to getting the questions right.  I don't think I would gotten those questions without them.


I was wondering where to find the 102e flowchart and example timelines (or any other helpful flowcharts/timelines for that matter).

Thanks!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: HoustonLwyr on 09-12-05 at 12:59 pm
What is it with the 68's?  I took my exam last Tuesday the 6th and got ... a 68.  I know it's paranid of me, but with the new format, the test takers have absolutely no way of verifying the integrity of the system.  There could have been a computer glitch that graded the tests incorrectly giving 1/2 the people failing grades and we'd never know it.  And yes, this rant is due in part to being so damn close, yet not close enough. ???
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Don Peri-On on 09-12-05 at 05:58 pm
Ralphie,
You can find the charts and time lines in Chapter 700,  pages 29-39 or so.  Hope this helps you.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Boardsweeper on 09-13-05 at 07:15 am
Got a lot of good tips from this forum so I wanted to share some from my test experience yesterday 9/12 (passed).  

A few repeats from the 2003 exam in the AM, but about 10-15 in the PM for about 20 overall.  A few that were counted for several answers in 2003 were CORRECTED to reveal only one correct answer now, but if you know them well this is obvious.  Do the 2003 exams, print the answers, highlight, take notes, and do them again!
Great advice on this.

SEVERAL questions on death of inventors.  2 inventors sign a POA and one dies.  Inventor dies after assignment of fill interest, inventor dies after assignment of partial interest.   Right to intervene of assignees.  I was confused by one question which gave alternative answers to "executor of the estate" and "admininistrator of the estate appointed by a court" where there was no will.  The MPEP section recites both executor and administrator so I dont know which was the best answer.

1 Q about how many and what kind of digital media you have to submit with a gene sequence.  I had trouble finding it and it may not be worth studying in advance.  Likely there to waste time you need on other questions!

2 Q on the 103(c) prior art exception (or non-exception), 102(e).  

A few on claim construction.  One on claim construction regarding means plus function.

LOTS on reexam and reissue, also know citation of prior art and protest.  One where a hairdresser find his competitor gets a patent but has an adversisement that he was selling the patented product one year before the competitor got his patent to that product.  
Many questions in this area of correcting patents.  In some, it was correction of inventorship of ISSUED patents where they gave you 1.48 (applying to applications) and wanted to see if you recognized the difference.  One on when you can file a reissue to correct inventorship (straightforward from MPEP).  Know all the options well for both review of the scope and validity of issued patents, as well as correcting mistakes on issued patents.

A few questions on when you get a FILING DATE in both utility apps and IAs, where something is missing.  

Id say about 4 PCT questions overall, and 2 dealt with filing date and 2 with priority (calculating due date, the other was on what date counts for PATENT TERM from a  resulting US patent).

A few questions on APPEAL (no suprise), where RCEs are filed proper and improper, when the Board remands on a new ground of rejection what are the possibilities for what will happen to the appeal as a whole.  

One or two on third parties in reexams - can you sumbit more than one reexam, when, what can they cite.  Overall know what kind of art belongs in each category (citation of prior art, protest, reexam, reissue) and in what circumstances each is appropriate - also timeframes to file.

The AM section was much harder than the PM section, but overall Id disagree that it was "much" harder than the 2003 exam.  The repeats help.  I found one section of the October 2003 exam much harder than the other (I think it was the PM) so Id say the exam I got was exactly as hard as the 2003 but no harder.  Dont stress.

Thanks to previous posters for some good tips and good luck to future takers.



Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: ydong on 09-14-05 at 06:51 am
Thanks for all the info on this forum. I'd like to show my approach to the exam, it works for me, and it might work for others as well.
I did one old test (available at USPTO website) just by common sense before any preparation, the result was so bad that I doubted the logic of MPEP. I decided to read the MPEP to see if all the patent agent/attorney/examiner are a little crazy. I read MPEP 8th-2nd rev through (am I crazy also?). It took me more than one month. I found the illogic rules make sense. I saw from MPEP the efforts and struggle of USPTO to mentain the hundreds-years-old patent system afloat. I have some experience before CIPO (the China's PTO), I may see the merits of the tedious rules at USPTO. Since it make sense, it is easy to follow even after one reading. I practiced with the past exams of 2003 and 2002 on paper and studied the answers and double checked them with the 2nd revision in my 2nd month of preparation. I took and passed the exam on Sep. 8.
In my opinion, the cumputerized test makes it easier with all the functions, such as mark/unmark, review, etc. I found the online MPEP is useful if you are familiar with the  topics and format. I think the 50 questions per test section is less stressful compare with Multistate (100 questions/section) I passed two years ago. You may have hours to play with MPEP after you finish the questions.
It is feasible, as least for me, to pass the test without spending a cent on prep material. Though you have to have time to read the MPEP. It is not as interesting as casebook at law school. But if you do want to know HOW USPTO functions, it is worth while.
An accident happened with my test: when I was bored with MPEP, I stretched myself and the computer rebooted! I was freak out since there was only 45 minutes left and there is no way to redo all the questions. I jumped up but couldn't cry since others were still with their tests. I grabed the technician for help. What happened was I kicked off the power cable. It turned out that I was OK, since the test was saved in the server in real time. I may get back to where I were, I lost 7 minutes to reset it, though.
I just love the computer test b/c it gives you the result rightaway. The test center at New York (1 Penn Plaza) even gives you a printout with their seal. So you don't have to stress yourself wondering if you saw the passing result on the screen correctly or it was a dream...
Good luck to those future test takers!
Ydong
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Badchicken on 09-15-05 at 10:27 am
My best advice is not to eat the spicy chicken sandwich at Hooters during lunch.  I spent most of my evening puking in the bathroom and didn't get to read through the entire evening exam.  Still made a 68, so I guess basically I am just gonna have to shell out another $400 to take it again.  

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: ta on 09-15-05 at 10:48 am
Quote
My best advice is not to eat the spicy chicken sandwich at Hooters during lunch.  I spent most of my evening puking in the bathroom and didn't get to read through the entire evening exam.  Still made a 68, so I guess basically I am just gonna have to shell out another $400 to take it again.  



sorry to hear about the bad chicken.  i would actually advise test takers to bring their own lunch, if possible.  i brought a sandwich and soda and just ate in the waiting area.  it saves you the trouble of signing in and out of the testing center and going to a store/restaurant to get food.  you can use the extra time to relax, review your notes (if that's your thing), or start the second half of the exam early.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: G-man on 09-15-05 at 07:51 pm
So after paying the registration fee, how long does it take to receive the registration number?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 09-15-05 at 09:47 pm
Usually 6 weeks.


Quote
So after paying the registration fee, how long does it take to receive the registration number?

Title: MPEP-redacted ?!!
Post by: someone told me on 09-16-05 at 02:22 pm
Someone I know took a Exam last month and told me that portions of searchable MPEP were redacted!!!

Is this true?!

He specifically stated that some portions of MPEP was redacted that he could not read some facts base "examples."


Has anyone seen and used the redacted MPEP?

I had never heard this from previous test taker.



Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: You can't be serious on 09-17-05 at 10:05 am
Your friend is an idiot.  

When you first open the searchable MPEP the zoom level is set so that the page is scaled vertically to the screen.  Becuase of the resulting resolution the parts of the MPEP that quote the CFR appear to be gray lines instead of text.  If you zoom in then it all becomes clear.  It's just a product of the screen resolution and not any redacting.  

I'd question any of your friend's other advice if he went through the whole test without figuring that out.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: humbled on 09-20-05 at 10:39 am
The OED informs me that any old exam question for which credit was given for more than one answer has been modified on the new test so that there is only one correct answer.

Has anyone seen the electric toothbrush question on the new test?  I got it and it appeared to be the exact same at Q33 on April 03 Morning Exam, for which both A and E were acceptable answers.

To referesh your memory here is a paraphrase of the old question:

Q33.  A claim in a pending patent application for an electric toothbrush is rejected under 102 as anticipated by Lander.  Lander issued one day before f/d.  Claim in pending application contains limitation specifying location of on/off switch.  Which, if true, would overcome:
(A)  The Lancer patent discloses and claims an electric toothbrush, but does not mention whether its toothbrush includes a power supply.
(B)  Evid. is submitted to show comm. successful.
(C)  The Lancer patent teach away from bristles.
(D) Lander is one of the three named inventors of the claimed toothbrush in the pending app.
(E) The on/off switch in the Lancer patent is on a different side of the body than that recited in the claim for elec. toothbrush in app.

How was this changed on the new test, so that both A and E are not correct?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: PatentingMyNoseHair on 09-22-05 at 03:47 pm
When I took the test that exact question was on it and it didn't apper as though they changed anything with the question.  However, they may just allow for two seperate and correct answers for this question.  Technically, there is nothing wrong with that question, it just has TWO answers.  I think that OED might have been referring to questions that were just incorrect and unanswerable all around, such as the one were you file a application in May 2003 and recieve an Office Action in June 2001 (I know one of the exams had this question as 'All Answers Accepted' but I don't remember exactly which exam its from).  In this case you cannot answer the question since it is improper because the Office Action is sent to you 2 years BEFORE you ever file an application.  However, OED could have changed the '2001' to '2003' and the question is okay.  Thus I think they are referring to questions like this as the ones they fixed.

Good Luck...
Nose Hair Man
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Tim on 09-23-05 at 06:14 pm
 ::)

I'm taking the exam in a few weeks, and I was wondering if any one of you who have taken the exam in the last couple of weeks have any advice.  I know the exam is time sensitive, and there were changes this summer in regards to using the revised version of the MPEP.  Have those changes effected the questions on the exam?  Is there still a shifted focus toward PCT, Appeals, and Reissue questions?   Also, are those questions regarding assignments, and death of the inventor still in the mix?  What about the Bio sequence question?  Thanks.  Any advice would be great.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: humbled on 09-25-05 at 01:56 pm
PatentingMyNoseHair Posted on: Sep 22nd, 2005, 4:47pm
"However, they may just allow for two separate and correct answers for this question."

The OED specifically informed me that any old exam question for which there was more than one correct answer had been modified so that there is only one correct answer.

I think this is a VERY IMPORTANT TIP for all exam takers, but I am almost certain that the question I posted above involving the electric toothbrush was not changed.  

Did anyone else encounter an unchanged old exam question with more than one correct answer?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: I passed on 09-26-05 at 07:24 am
I encountered the Lancer power toothbrush question.  In my preparation I used the PatWare Software from PLI.  That software only allows one correct answer, but in the explanation, it states if the PTO accepted more than one correct answer.  Thus I thought the better answer (even though both were correct) to be the answer marked correct by the Software (which has its glitches, don't get me wrong).  So I marked A as the answer to this question, even though A and E are technically correct.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: I passed (me again) on 09-26-05 at 07:32 am
Also, I would like to point out the question asking who can sign a 1.132 petition showing that a previous invention was not by another.  The subject matter of the question is "Application A" and "Patent X" I believe.   This is an old exam question, although the particular exam escapses me at the moment.  The answer choices (I believe) included variations of: declarations or statemens from -the owner of Application A, the inventor of Application A, the inventor of Patent X, the attorney, and there was another choice.  2 answers were accepted because the inventor is in a position to have the best knowledge of ownership of the invention - or something along those lines - but the original correct answer was the attorney can send in a statement.  I marked that answer on the exam.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: testtaker/passesr on 09-27-05 at 09:17 pm
Just thought I'd let everyone who was curious how long it took me to get my registration number.  I took the exam on August 4th, got the preliminary pass results the same day.  I received the official pass letter about a week and a half later (approximately August 20th).  I did a search in the Advanced Patent Agent/Attorney search on Monday September 26 and my name appeared.

So it takes close to two months before you actually get your registration number and the right to hold yourself out as a registered Attorney, even though you've passed.  It'd be nice if they stream lined that whole process along with the exam results.  Yeesh.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: juststudying on 10-04-05 at 11:38 am
Is there an easy way to determine whether an answer will be in Chapter 700 v. Chapter 2100 ... specifically with 101, 102, 103, 112 questions?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: ta on 10-06-05 at 06:46 pm
Quote
Is there an easy way to determine whether an answer will be in Chapter 700 v. Chapter 2100 ... specifically with 101, 102, 103, 112 questions?


i took the exam in august, so this is based on some fuzzy recollection.  as a broad generalization, i remember 700 dealing more with hard rules and procedures (e.g., a publication with this priority chain is 102(e) art as of this date), whereas 2100 dealt more with standards that are applied when determining patentability (e.g., what makes a particular invention "obvious").  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Flip on 10-06-05 at 10:14 pm
I am taking the Patent Bar at the end of October.  I am using the Patent education Series.  I am now beginning to do the practice exams.  How many of these questions are repeats?? Does anyone know or have any advice on other outside reading I can do to pass this thing?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: D_NICE on 10-10-05 at 10:46 am
I would highly suggest reading through the last 10-15 pages of this post.  It will tell you how many repeats there were on the various tests, what topics to focus on and even some sample questions that people remember from taking the test.  This will answer almost all of your questions.  Also, know the past three exams inside and out and where to find stuff in the MPEP and you should pass.  Good Luck....
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: PassedYesterday on 10-11-05 at 11:58 am
Just took the exam yesterday, and passed, thank God. I would not want to take that again. On the whole, it seemed more difficult than any of the old exams.

There were about 20 or so questions that I recognized from old exams, particularly from 2003 exams. I was told to study those, and that was good advice. Recognizing and answering the old exam question quickly is essential, in my opinion. There will be questions where you need longer than 3.5 minutes to look up an answer if you don't know off the top of your head. Any extra time you can get will help.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Taking_exam_soon on 10-17-05 at 11:57 pm
I noticed www.openipsource.com as a good resource. There they put together the past exam questions by section.

Based on past exam questions MPEP 600/700/2100 seem overrepresented.

Do any of the recent exam takers notice a difference? More questions on foreign applications? or design patents? etc.

THANKS!

PS> If you recently took exam and passed and want to sell to give me any advice (or possibly sell unwanted study guides) contact me at:
Fordhamlaw_2005@yahoo.com
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 10-24-05 at 10:30 am
just passed [at least per testing site] on friday.  These postings helped me a lLOT. Here is my recollection:

A significant number of Q's from 02 and 03 [especially fall 03].

probably 10 PCT Q's -- mostly priority data and requirement-for-F/D Q's.

A lot of Q's regarding:  assignments, re-exam, RCE, reissue Q's.

1/3 knew without lookup, 1/3 pretty sure marked for dbl check via lookup if time, 1/3 had to lookup.  In other words, looked up 1/3 at initial answer and marked another 1/3 to go back and dbl check.  I only had time to dbl/check about 1/2 of marked Q's though.

no problem with computer or lookup - was fast and straightforward.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Taking_exam_soon on 10-26-05 at 08:25 am
previous post:

>A lot of Q's regarding:  assignments, re-exam, RCE, >reissue Q's.

thanks for the info--any chance someone could be more specific? assignments from chapter 300, where was most of the info for re-exam/RCE/reissue? (probably nothing on CPAs since just refers to design patents?)

also, could previous exam takers comment on access to a separate 37 CFR file? is it available? useful?

thanks...
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: BTP on 10-26-05 at 10:07 am
Quote

also, could previous exam takers comment on access to a separate 37 CFR file? is it available? useful?



Most of 37 CFR (and all the parts you'll need) appears and is indexed in Appendix R of the MPEP.  It's fully searchable while you're taking the exam.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Taking_exam_soon on 10-26-05 at 03:28 pm
Thanks for the answer to the 37 CFR question.

Could anyone that has taken the test give me a summary of the most important sections related to CPA/continuation in part/RCE/reissue applications?

thanks

PS> if anyone in the NY area has stuff left over after passing the exam and wants to get rid of it please contact me at: Fordhamlaw_2005@yahoo.com
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: nice_to_be_finished on 10-27-05 at 02:02 pm
Thus passed the exam today. Here is my 2 cents....

It seems to me that the number of repeats is decreasing as time progresses; ergo, if you are procastinating, you are doing so at your peril. The exam is spreading like kudzu accross the entire MPEP.

What to know?
1) The stuff covered in the model exams like:
-(non)obviousness.
-anticipation
-claim language and construction (comprising, etc...)
-although their importance is decreasing (see supra), the model exam questions are still worth knowing as well as possible. The main reason being they buy you time to consider the new material.

2) Appeals (1200)
3) Re-examination (not inter partes) - know timelines and required content, fees (or lack thereof)
4) PCT
5) RCE practice
6) right of priority (not just PCT)

I saw interferences mentioned in this thread, but I only had 1 question on that topic.

Some subject areas might reward general knowledge, but regarding PCT, go hard or go home. My PCT questions were complex monsters (so much so that I skipped most of them outright).

IMHO, previous posts rely too much on lookup during the exam and not enough on knowing the rules. Aside from PCT, reading the MPEP (specifically the areas mentioned in this forum) was time well spent.

My morning session was much easier than my afternoon.

Regarding study aids, I used the MPEP, the model exams, and this forum as my inputs. IMHO, you don't need the expensive review courses, just these materials and Patent Prosecution I and Patent Prosecution II from FPLC.  ;D

Good Luck.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Taking_exam_soon on 10-28-05 at 02:19 pm
Quote
It seems to me that the number of repeats is decreasing as time progresses; ergo, if you are procastinating, you are doing so at your peril. The exam is spreading like kudzu accross the entire MPEP.


Congrats on passing, bet those FPLC classes helped-then was it more or less than the price of a PLI/PRG class?-just kidding. ;)

Your evidence that the # of questions from past exams is that you only saw a few? also how many question did you actually look up? and where did u take the exam?

thanks.
Title: LabView
Post by: Agassi on 10-30-05 at 04:18 am
I am a computer programmer and I wrote a LabView program that simulates the patent bar exam exactly as it is seen on the exam.  I passed the exam on Monday and this software really helped me out.  I had the 2003 and 2002 exams in the program.  The searchable MPEP was also incorporated into the software.  Would anybody be interested in this software?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: KittyKitty on 10-30-05 at 08:47 am
Hello,

I have a question about using FIND feature on the MPEP during the exam.  Is FIND the same as SEARCH?  How do I use this funtion during the exam?

I searched using the INDEX on the exam last summer and found that I couldn't read the print on the right-hand column on some pages.  It was just jibberish.

Any tips on using the MPEP during the exam would be appreciated!

Thanks!!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Hugo B. on 11-03-05 at 05:04 pm
I took a test today and got a letter isued by Prometrics stating that my score is 60.  Is it 60 correct answers or 60 % out of 90 graded questions?

Did any of you had an experience of going to D.C. to view the test with correct and missed results?

thanks to all whowill respond
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 11-03-05 at 06:04 pm
It means your scored 60 percent compared to the 70 per cent you need.  

It may not meen that you've gotten a particular number of questions right.  Apparently some questions are weighted more heavily than others.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 11-04-05 at 09:15 am
 :-/ Weighted questions?   I've been prepping for a while & will take the exam very soon.  Weighted questions have not been mentioned in anything I have read, please expound.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 11-04-05 at 01:54 pm
 

"Accordingly, to pass the examination a candidate must correctly answer seventy percent (sixty-three) of the ninety scored questions."

(COPIED FROM http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/gcounsel/09jun2005.htm - the link doesn't seem to work now)


It specifically states that you need 63 questions correct out of 90 graded questions. What I understand from this is that all the questions are weighted equally.  



Quote
It means your scored 60 percent compared to the 70 per cent you need.  

It may not meen that you've gotten a particular number of questions right.  Apparently some questions are weighted more heavily than others.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 11-05-05 at 02:11 am
I don't have any personal knowledge of the subject. There is a thread in this forum titled "New Scoring of the Revision 2 Test" that describes some kind of weighting scheme including a quote from a letter from the PTO describing the rationale.

The psychometric corrected scoring described in that thread may have been a one time thing, but it was used at least once.


 
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 11-05-05 at 02:12 am
I don't have any personal knowledge of the subject. There is a thread in this forum titled "New Scoring of the Revision 2 Test" that describes some kind of weighting scheme including a quote from a letter from the PTO describing the rationale.

The psychometric corrected scoring described in that thread may have been a one time thing, but it was used at least once.


 
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Clarity for Idiots on 11-06-05 at 12:37 pm
There isn't any weighting on the questions.   All questions count equally for the total you need to pass.  The confusion seems to be coming from the fact that on the new test incorporating the revision 2 material only 90 of the questions are "real" and 10 are test questions that the PTO is still experimenting with.   Your exam score is determined using only your answers to the 90 real questions.

Thus you need to answer 63 out of the 90 questions that count to get 70% on the exam.  Your answers to the 10 test questions don't matter at all and are not factored into your score.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 11-07-05 at 07:44 am
I have to admit to not having a vital interest in how the registration exam is graded, but for patento and "clarity for idiots" is it your opinion that the poster who quoted written statements from OED indicating that weighting was applied to questions on an administration of the registration exam fabricated the statement?

I would hope that even when we strongly disagree with someone's post that the discourse could at least be civil when possible.   I don't always manage that, but I try.  

But post as you will.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 11-07-05 at 12:41 pm
I am sorry, what part of my message (below) was offensive and uncivil?

Quote

 
"Accordingly, to pass the examination a candidate must correctly answer seventy percent (sixty-three) of the ninety scored questions."

(COPIED FROM http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/gcounsel/09jun2005.htm - the link doesn't seem to work now)

 
It specifically states that you need 63 questions correct out of 90 graded questions. What I understand from this is that all the questions are weighted equally.  
 
 


Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 11-07-05 at 02:21 pm
Mr. Patento, your message was completely civil.   I am curious about why you are dubious about the past use of psychometric weighting, but I have no real problem with your disagreement.

On the other hand, another message contained similar content to your message but was from someone who posted under the handle "clarity for idiots".    I have the same curiosity about clarity's response as yours, but I have far less respect for clarity's methods.

I note that the poster who originally suggested that questions were being weighted wound up having to defend himself against personal attacks that seemed unwarranted.   I'm not sure why this particular topic draws this kind of response.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: better_late_than_never on 11-07-05 at 03:58 pm
Quote

Congrats on passing, bet those FPLC classes helped-then was it more or less than the price of a PLI/PRG class?-just kidding. ;)

Your evidence that the # of questions from past exams is that you only saw a few? also how many question did you actually look up? and where did u take the exam?

thanks.


sorry for the tardy response

Yes, my evidence is purely anecdotal, based on what I experienced in taking the exam. I probably looked up around 20-30 questions. I took the exam in Concord New Hampshire. The testing center was good. (shappy computers, etc...)
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 11-08-05 at 01:21 pm
I am not dubious about anything. I don't even care about examination system. I simply posted a quote from an official USPTO document. I am not sure what ticked you off?

Quote
Mr. Patento, your message was completely civil.   I am curious about why you are dubious about the past use of psychometric weighting, but I have no real problem with your disagreement.

On the other hand, another message contained similar content to your message but was from someone who posted under the handle "clarity for idiots".    I have the same curiosity about clarity's response as yours, but I have far less respect for clarity's methods.

I note that the poster who originally suggested that questions were being weighted wound up having to defend himself against personal attacks that seemed unwarranted.   I'm not sure why this particular topic draws this kind of response.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: LaoK on 11-09-05 at 03:57 pm
Just took the test today.  Preliminary results show I passed!

I'll confirm the advice about studying the 2003 exams, as I saw several repeats (and though I don't think they changed any of those questions, I read over them carefully anyway).  I used one prep course and studied from May through early October at a comfortable pace, starting out with their "Core Curriculum" two volume set (but I only got through the first book, which covers MPEP 100-700 and 2100) and then switched over to the one-volume "Last Minute" review book as I saw I was running out of time before I had to go back to class (I'm a 2L, with a biology B.S./M.S.).  

After submitting my credentials to the USPTO back during the mid-summer, they gave me until mid-November to take the test.  So I crammed from last Friday to today, mostly taking the 2003 exam halves (Oct AM and PM, and April AM) in the prep course software simulator and reading most of MPEP Chapter 2100 and 700.  Using a simulator with Acrobat v.5 is very helpful, so you know what to expect as far as searching capabilities.  

If you're studying with materials where they cut out a lot to get the chapters down to a reasonable size, I'd recommend actually reading as many MPEP chapters as you have time for, particularly in 2100, 700, 1200, 1400, 1800 (in that order, really).  But if you're going to read the MPEP, you have to have a good basic understanding of the concepts first.  (I found it also helps to be taking Patent Law as an elective at the same time you're studying for the test, since many of the cases mentioned in 2100 are covered in class!)

Didn't see any inter partes reexam on my test, but I do recall seeing the Lancer toothbrush question mentioned earlier, as well as the one where the inventor had a living will and became incapacitated (and who had a presumptive heir who was also a minor and mentally incompetent) and his personal representative would be the one to sign the oath.  There were also a couple of questions which were framed from the examiner's perspective, one in which relevant prior art comes up after the notice of allowance has issued, and what can the examiner do to stop the patent issuing if he believes that with the newly discovered prior art, a patent claim isn't allowable.

As far as examsmanship, making the answer sheet on the scratch paper helped, so you can keep track of what answers you've eliminated.  Since each question counts the same, I used a strategy of going through and answering the ones I was sure of first, marking the ones that I thought I knew the answers to but was uncertain, and skipping the ones where I had no clue.  Then reviewing the skipped, since they would take more time, then reviewing the marked.  If you have a general idea which chapter of the MPEP an answer is in, I found that searching for keywords from questions was effective and (at least on the computer i had, pretty quick).

I'm so glad I passed on the first try!  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Amanda Westervelt on 11-10-05 at 09:34 am
Agassi -
You mentioned a program you wrote - does it work on Linux by any chance?  If so, I'm interested.  Thanks!

All - this message board rocks.  Thanks for all the tips!!!!

Amanda
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: new_pat_agent on 11-10-05 at 01:07 pm
 :o
Hello Agassi,

Per your offering the labview to prepare the test.  I Would like to share that tool that you created and offer.  How to contact with you. I send  you many  e-mails but your e-mail was not  valid or available.

Please let me know how to get it

Thanks in advance,
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: quxiotic on 11-11-05 at 01:49 pm
I am taking the patent bar next week.  Before taking the exam I am going to PTO to examine my failed exam.  Has anyone had any experience with this process.  Any idea how many of the questions are repeated?
Thanks
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Dr. Talk on 11-14-05 at 07:23 pm
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who contributed to this posting.  I took the exam today and received the preliminary pass.  Still waiting for the official word before jumping up and down too much (wouldn't want to jinx it  ;) ).

The advice here was just great and helped alot with organizing my studying and working through the exam.  The idea for writing out the 1-50 numbers on the scratch paper with ABDCDE next to them was perfect for giving me someplace to cross off the obviously wrong answers.  Helped keep my head clear instead of juggling them all up there at once.

I took the PLI course with John White in Chicago and it was really good.  The study guide is very thorough and I like White's dry sense of humor.  One extra thing I did to help study after the course and before the exam (besides the postcourse work and old exams) was to play the lecture CD's while I drove in the car during the day.  I have an hour commute to and from work, and it makes good use of the empty time.  

If you are preparing for the exam, I would definately study the old exams as there are alot of repeats.  Study the reasons for the right and wrong answers alike. On the exam read them through to make sure there weren't any changes.  The repeats are a nice relief from the tough questions that have you stumped.  Also, make sure you know which chapters the topics are found in.  It will help you get to the right place to search quickly, when you are looking, because on the exam you can only open one chapter of the MPEP at a time.

I didn't get the VELCRO and airplane questions which was dissappointing because they sounded kinda cool.  There were a few PCT questions, lots of dead inventor ones, and the usual assortment from 102.  The dead inventor questions were cool because I had never gone into much depth studying them and I enjoyed having a chance to look at it in more detail.

The test center was pretty good although the screens had that nasty flicker to them.  There are little lockers in the main waiting area with locks for you to lock up electronic stuff (I threw in my wallet and car keys, so I didn't have them jabbing me in my pocket).  One hour break for lunch (or whatever), but you could opt to continue on without stopping if you desired (or if you are insane).

One thing to note is that the test room was kinda small and is closed up, so it gets somewhat warm by the afternoon.  You probably don't want to wear a big thick sweater.  Maybe bring a lighter shirt if you aren't sure and leave it in the car to change into at lunch time if you are sweltering.

Thanks again to everyone here for the great advice, and good luck to everyone who is taking the exam soon.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Cheshire Cat on 11-14-05 at 09:14 pm
Dear Jon_in_Michigan,

First congrats to your passing the exam! Thanks alos for your input.

A few quick questions for you as I'm taking PLI's home study course myself.

In your view or experience, how useful is PLI's Study Guide? Does it sufficiently cover the stuff to be tested? Is it possible to pass the exam without reading MPEP at all? In other words, assuming one is extremely familiar with or knows the entire Study Guide by heart,  can he then pass the exam without having to painfully go through MPEP, or even part of it?

Your feedback is appreciated.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Dr. Talk on 11-15-05 at 08:51 am
Cheshire Cat,

That's hard to say.  I know there is alot of material that is covered in class but not in the depth that you might see on the exam (e.g. Appeal).  But the depth of the questions can be found by doing the old exams and the post-course work.  Definately do the old exams.  If you know the study guide material perfectly, you would probably only need to look up a few specific examples that appear in the MPEP.  In that case, you need to make sure you know which chapters the different topics are found in.

I never read the whole MPEP, but I did read large sections of 2100.

Good luck on your exam!

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: becca on 11-15-05 at 09:00 am
Dear Jon_in_Michigan

congrates!

where did you take exam ? which center ?

thx.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Dec-9th-is-the-day on 12-02-05 at 02:41 am
Thanks to everyone that has posted-this is a very helpful collection of info.

I was taking the practice exams and noticed that on some questions it is not obvious which part of the MPEP to go to.

Of course no quick fix to passing this exam.  But, I was just curious if anyone that has passed the computer based USPTO exam could give any suggestions of their strategy when a tough question is encountered? For example if the question references 37 CFR did u go there 1st? 37 CFR seems to be pretty vague but gives a good overview of the issues? or try to figure out the best chapter of the mpep and then find-it-or-forget? or did some people find that the computer based system allowed for searching several places as long as only ~5 questions per section fell into this category?

any suggests on exam strategy appreciated-thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Dec-9th-is-the-day on 12-02-05 at 03:32 pm
Just to add a litte to the post above.

I think I figured it out-basically using the 'find' feature will virtually the question for you.  For example practice exam April 2002 PM question #4, if you don't know whether "the lapse of time between" is relevant in selection B, just use find in MPEP 700 and it lands on the exact passage needed to answer the question.

But, as stated above I wonder how much time people who actually took the test found they had to do such searches, for example is it only practical on 5-10 questions per section?

thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Cyndi on 12-02-05 at 06:25 pm
Just took the exam today, and passed (preliminarily, anyway)!  Woohoo!  The advice in this thread was very helpful in preparing for the exam.  

To add my two cents to the previous two posts, I looked up nearly every question, except for those I was 100% positive of (e.g. repeat questions).  For questions that I didn't immediately know where to find the answer (a fair number), I always started out by looking in the index (last chapter/section of MPEP) and searching for key words.  That led me to the right chapter/section, and usually to the exact answer.  I did get the user pass question, and for that one, I had no clue where to look.  I just started in chapter 100 and searched each chapter for "user pass" until I found the right chapter.  Luckily it didn't take long!

The key to passing is to do practice exams, and more practice exams (this has been said many times before - it is true!).  Know all of the exams from April 2002 on, and know them cold.  This isn't as hard as it sounds, you just have to take each of the exams 2 or more times.  

One thing that surprised me was the number of appeal questions.  I got pretty familiar with the appeal chapter today!

Finally, since I passed, I'm selling my PLI course materials (including PatWare) on e-bay.  Check it out if you're interested: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6992530902&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1

-Cyndi
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: hosed on 12-03-05 at 12:00 pm
Dear All,

I just took the exam on Friday, and I'm pretty sure I failed.  My preliminary score was 64 out of 100.  Although the test includes 10 non-counted "proposed" questions (similar to the LSAT), You still need a 63 to pass out of 90.  That means I need to have at least 9 wrong answers as test questions, very unlikely.

I was really suprised how different the questions were from those in the past exams I was studying.  Including the 2003 exams.  At least 30% of my exam was 103 Obviousness rejections.  At least 20% was PCT questions (yes, I'm not joking at least 20 PCT questions mostly in the PM).  I studied PCT for about 4 hours total.  I didn't even know what the IB and the IAS were, but after 5 questions on them I began to be concerned.  The afternoon session had a string of PCT and I was really beaten by this.  Since the exam randomly selects questions, it appears I got a raw set.

About 30% of the questions were verbatim from old exams, and I am pretty comfortable with getting those correct.    

About 15% I had no clue and bore no resemblance to past questions.  The MPEP is the second edition, which means that since I used the 1'st edition to study, all the formatting of pages that I was familiar with had changed.  Plus, I think that significant changes on obviousness related questions may have come into play.  This may have changed in the second edition.  

Some notable repeats.  Claim counting question with 147 claims, jane and the pre-first action interview, electric toothbrush with power supply, 112 first paragraph, second paragraph, sixth paragraph, sales of rights, chemical formula is obvious with 34.9% compared to 35% in prior art.

Some notable ones I wasn't expecting.  Several death of inventor questions, death of joint inventor, practitioner disagrees with IAS, foreign, foreign, foreign blah blah blah, appeals on appeals,

The searching of the MPEP is with a Windows like search box that does not display a full list of results.  Really sucks.  You don't have the PDF viewer search tool available.  Unfortunately my PDF MPEP does display a full list of results which lets you see the phrase in context.  Plus, the PDF search eliminates punctuation from the search, whereas the Windows engine does an exact search.  Minor details, but unhelpful in locating text in the MPEP.

The trouble is that there is little I could have done differently to prepare.  There are no new test questions for the new exam available.  I have no materials which are useful for PCT test question prep.  I'm not ready to take this again, and I fear I will fail again regardless.  I have no way to prepare for the questions I missed.  It's really frustrating.  I would like to know how many people have passed this new exam, because I prepared thoroughly and still lost.

This is really irritating.  After taking the PLI course, and scoring above an 80 consistently on practice exams (often above a 90) I felt very prepared for the exam.  

One note, over a month ago I went to sit for the exam after being completely primed and ... the exam software crashed repeatedly.  This didn't help much, because since then I've had little time to study.  But, I don't feel that my knowledge evaporated so much as to cause this failure.  I simply wasn't ready for the barrage of obviousness and PCT questions.  

And all this just in time for law school final exams.  Ho ho ho.

-hosed


 
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Dec-9th-is-the-day on 12-03-05 at 01:11 pm
Thanks to the above posts.  

Congrats to everyone that passed.  Not passing is a reality of this exam (I'll probably be in there too soon)-but at least it is easy to retake and I don't think there is much downside compared to a law school exam, the real bar exam, or getting a low MCAT/GRE/LSAT.

But as far as the PCT.  Maybe that is a point of emphasis and so most of the beta questions are from the PCT so it appears to be wildy overrepresented but really is not.  Still aren't most of the answers in Chapter 1800?  Would anyone be willing to explain the areas tested that are not in 1800, etc.?

thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: hosed on 12-03-05 at 02:37 pm
Dec 9'th -

One would think that after having familiarity with the MPEP, PCT would not be so tough.  Trouble is that as you probably have observed doing practice exams - without going through questions in advance and becoming familiar with the subject matter, it's very tough to figure out new subject matter even with the 2500 pages of PDF available.  

Trouble is that I did so little PTC preparation, and had almost no test question on it I was blindsided by how to search/approach the problems.  Although you can usually rule out a few possible answers, on the PCT it was very hard to reason anything.  Searching the MPEP was not easy as I wasn't familiar with the terminology.  

I have to email John White and tell him to dedicate 20% of the PLI course to PTC.  

-Hosed
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Dec-9th-is-the-day on 12-03-05 at 06:27 pm
Just wondering: are the PCT questions anwerable based on chapter 1800? could you give some specifics?

thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: chemichael on 12-04-05 at 08:20 am
One piece of advice I took from the Kayton course that I found really helpful was that I went through and did all of the short questions first.  This did two things for me:  One, I didn't  get bogged down early on a longer, complex question and two, it seemed that most of the short questions I knew the answers too right away which gave me alot of confidence early.  I made a point of not spending alot of time on any one question.  In other words, on my first pass if I couldn't answer it in a few minutes, I moved on to another question.  The result was, that at the end, I have a few long questions to deal with but I had plenty of time to spend on them, look them up in the MPEP, etc.

I also had trouble with computer-based exam.  I was originally scheduled to take it in April.  I showed up at the testing center twice to take the exam and both times the exam crashed on the first question.  I wrote a letter and requested that I be allowed to take the written exam and the PTO granted my request.  I had been studying using the searchable MPEP so I was concerned about having to use the hard copy of the MPEP.  I found it to not be an issue.  I had plenty of time to look up the things I wanted to look up and typically finished a little early so I had time to go back and double check those questions I was a little unsure of.

I noticed quite a few PCT questions but I also spent a fair amount of time studying PCT.  I used the CD-ROM that comes with the Kayton course and spent alot of time covering those chapters I felt I was a little unsure about.

I ended up passing the written exam and felt that the Kayton course was a good prep.  I did the home course (video tapes and CD-ROM).  

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Florida Patents on 12-05-05 at 07:51 pm
It certainly sounds like Chapter 1200 and 1800 constitute a greater proportion of the exam.  I am making my final preparations for my exam on Wednesday (Dec. 7th).

I recently listened to John White's update on the computerized version of the exam.  Two points stuck out in my mind (i) the UPSTO / Prometric have resolved the issue with the computers freezing, and (ii) that while there are more PCT questions, they mirror most of the past exam questions.

I took the advice of this forum, and reviewed the PCT questions collected on www.openipsource.com (which was a very, very, very helpful lead).  

I wonder if Hosed reviewed those questions, if it could have helped him or her.  As Hosed experience is abit alarming at this stage in my prep.

Any last minute words of advice?

- Florida Patents
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Dec-9th-is-the-day on 12-05-05 at 08:38 pm
Florida,

nice to hear about the PCT questions-but there are only a whopping 3 Q's (the 4th is a repeat) www.openipsoure.com chapter 1800??

Hope u post after your exam (I'll be the "Dec-9th-is-NOT-the-day" poster soon)

thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Cyndi on 12-05-05 at 09:55 pm
Florida - keep in mind that John White is selling a product... his course.  The audiocast, while it may contain some useful information should be taken for what it is - an advertisement/infomercial.  He likely gets his information from a small sample former students who contact him after taking the exam, all of whom have seen different questions on the exam.  I'm guessing he hasn't personally taken the exam yet (I could be wrong on that), and doesn't have a 100% clear understanding of the types of questions that are being tested now, but he has probably heard second- or third- hand about what is being tested.  I can only say that based on my experience, out of the 6 or so PCT questions on my test, only 1 was similar to (not the same as) one of the former questions.  New questions seem to be testing on very subtle points of law for PCT and other topics (appeal, reexam, priority claims, refunds, etc) - things you probably won't know off the top of your head.  But don't let that worry you... if you know how to search the electronic MPEP quickly and efficiently, you won't have a problem at all.

Good luck to you on Wednesday!  And good luck to Dec-9 on Friday!

-Cyndi
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Dec-9th-is-the-day on 12-05-05 at 11:09 pm
Cyndi,
Just a quick question: did u search Appendix T for the PCT or just 1800?
thanks.

Florida,
might want to skim Appendix T just get some aspects of the PCT from a different perspective, best of luck on Wed!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Baxter W. Banowsky on 12-05-05 at 11:46 pm
I took the test today and passed! ;D

I found this site last week and this thread was very helpful.  I can confirm several things.  First, study the 2003 Exams.  Take them more than once.  Make margin notes by the questions you missed with the general concept that you missed.  I reviewed my old tests this morning before the exam, and just read the margin notes on the many questions I missed.

There were a number of repeats from the 2003 exams.  It's nice to be able to quickly answer the question you've seen several times (like the Lancer toothbrush, the May 31 Appeal brief, etc.).  It gave me time to look up all those PCT questions I didn't know off the top of my head.

Thanks to reviewing this thread, I answered all the questions I knew of the top of my head or knew where in the MPEP to find the answer, without marking them.  I answered the questions I thought I knew but would like to have looked up but also marked them for later review.  I skipped the long questions I did not know the answer to and was not exactly sure where to find the answer.  After I finished going through the exam, I had about 6 questions I had skipped.  The software will take you through the skipped questions by going to "Review Incomplete."  When I finished those, which I knew were all right because I looked them up, I was pretty much out of both time and give a shit.  I never went back to the marked questions, but hey, I passed. ;D

The PCT questions were pretty much all right out of 1800, but there's a lot of information in 1800.  Most questions were related to priority date or whether an International filing date would be afforded.  There was at least one PCT abandonment question.

There must have been 10-15 total PCT questions.  My guess is that some were beta questions.  There was at least one question with spelling/gramatical errors which must have been a beta.  The aluminum foil airplane was on my test.

Most of the questions that I had not seen before were similar in structure and principle to the questions from the 2003 exams.  There's a question about a cure for cancer and utility (compound Y).  

I found this site trying to find an online MPEP that mimicked the Prometric online MPEP, instead I found this thread.  It was very helpful.

One point I would emphasize, I downloaded all the MPEP pdf files from the PTO's website.  I then stopped using my paper MPEP all together and searched exclusively with Acrobat.  The Prometric version is, in some ways, easier to deal with, but you must search by chapter just like with the individual MPEP pdf files.  I am certain that practicing with the MPEP pdf files saved me valuable minutes on the exam so I could look up the material I did not know off the top of my head.

Thanks to all who shared their experiences on the exam and good luck to those who have not yet taken it.

Baxter W. Banowsky
Dallas, Texas
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Thankful its over on 12-06-05 at 08:24 am
Thanks to everyone who posted.  Before the exam I reviewed PRG (Profs. Kayton, Gardner, and Co.) a few free resources from the net and this board.  I found that what people are saying on here is pretty accurate.  A lot of PCT questions (maybe 15% of the exam) a lot of Reissue and Reexamination questions (maybe 15% of the exam) a lot of 102/103 question (maybe 30% of the exam) at least two "dead inventor" questions, as well as various other questions.  I enjoyed the "public use" question regarding the fruit-flavored lip gloss, which someone posted on here earlier, but I did not see the foil airplane or Velcro questions.
Time was not an issue for me.  I went through all the questions, marking the ones I was not sure about (roughly 25 questions in the morning and about 18 questions in the afternoon).  Then I went through and looked up each answer (without "find") to the questions I had marked.  Then I started to go through all the questions again, just to make sure.  I did not complete that last review, but it was really just "something to do" for the last 15 minutes or so of the exam.
I took the exam at the Alexandria, VA test center.
The room was a tad hot, the computer screens were not big, but not small (I think 17 in.).  The refresh rate (60 Hz) was a bad combination with the florescent lighting.
And when I clicked "Find" <<TADA>> the system locked, though the counter kept ticking.  So, I could not use the find feature on the exam.  If you are going to try to use the find, I suggest that you resist the temptation to make the MPEP window full screen.  Leave it in a small window and make sure that you can click the "previous" button on the exam window behind it.  Even if the MPEP locks up, if you click on previous it will close the MPEP (it has some interesting graphical glitches in the process) and you'll be fine.  If the MPEP is in full screen mode when you click "Find" you'll have to reboot - which will cost you 3-5 minutes.
At the end of the exam it will tell you "out of time."  You click "ok."  It tells you that this is the end of the exam.  Don't just get up.  Click "End"  ... you will then get a new screen that will either tell you your percent or that you passed.  Click "End" again and you will go to the survey (8 questions and you can complain in free text at the end).  At the end of that click end, and then leave.
Good luck to all!
;D
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Cyndi on 12-06-05 at 11:02 am
Dec 9 -

I always started my searches in 1800 for PCT questions.  I only had to refer to Appendix T once, on a question on what happens when a US resident files an IA with the USPTO as the receiving office, but the application is filed in Japanese.  Searching 1800 led me to find that the PTO is not competent to be a recieving office for any apps in a language other than English, and if the app was in a language accepted by the International Bureau, it would be given a filing date and forwarded to the IB upon payment of a fee.  I had to go to Appendix T to make sure that Japanese was a language acceptable by the IB (this might have been in 1800 as well, but I knew it was in Appendix T for sure).

-Cyndi
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Cyndi on 12-06-05 at 11:04 am
Dec 9 -

I always started my searches in 1800 for PCT questions.  I only had to refer to Appendix T once, on a question on what happens when a US resident files an IA with the USPTO as the receiving office, but the application is filed in Japanese.  Searching 1800 led me to find that the PTO is not competent to be a recieving office for any apps in a language other than English, and if the app was in a language accepted by the International Bureau, it would be given a filing date and forwarded to the IB upon payment of a fee.  I had to go to Appendix T to make sure that Japanese was a language acceptable by the IB (this might have been in 1800 as well, but I knew it was in Appendix T for sure).

-Cyndi
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Jimmi on 12-08-05 at 08:49 am
Cyndi:

Do you think that Exhibit T is a better source  as compared to Chapter 1800 for searching the answers when dealing with PCT questions?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Cyndi on 12-08-05 at 11:32 am
Jimmi -

It probably depends on how familiar you are with both section 1800 and Appendix T.  I liked to start with 1800 because it has a good table of contents and gives detailed explanations of the treaty sections as applied to the USPTO.  I didn't practice searching Appendix T when I was studying, so I didn't even think to use it on the exam until I ran into a question that I couldn't find an answer to in 1800.

-Cyndi
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: dec. 13th is my lucky day on 12-09-05 at 04:43 pm
cindi,  i can't believe that you were able to look up every question!  any secrets you care or dare to share or bare?  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patent.b on 12-14-05 at 03:38 pm
I passed yesterday!  I am SO glad that is done!!!

Unfortunately, my sign-in/out sheet forbid me discussing questions after the exam.  However, I feel comfortable saying that the PRG CD made me well prepared.

Thanks to everyone who posted advice on this board.  I followed the advice and studied like crazy, but it was worth it.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 12-14-05 at 03:59 pm
Quote
I passed yesterday!  I am SO glad that is done!!!


Congratulations!

Quote
Unfortunately, my sign-in/out sheet forbid me discussing questions after the exam.  However, I feel comfortable saying that the PRG CD made me well prepared.


No discussion eh?  Is this a new thing?  Back when I took the test, there was an online forum where pretty much the only topic of discussion was exam questions.   We walked through 10 feet of snow to get to the exam center.  It was uphill coming and going, etc.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patent.b on 12-14-05 at 04:27 pm
We walked through 10 feet of snow to get to the exam center.  It was uphill coming and going, etc.

LOL,  ;D

No discussion eh?  Is this a new thing?  Back when I took the test, there was an online forum where pretty much the only topic of discussion was exam questions.  

Now I don't know if you are being funny or sarcastic?   ???
I know some testing centers have not required test-takers to sign confidentiality agreements.  Mine was specifically pointed out to me when I signed in and signed out of the exam.  I found it unfortunate because of how much I appreciate and wanted to contribute to this forum.   :-/
Title: Free at last!
Post by: Cheshire Cat on 12-17-05 at 03:57 pm
Quote
Dear Jon_in_Michigan,

First congrats to your passing the exam! Thanks alos for your input.

A few quick questions for you as I'm taking PLI's home study course myself.

In your view or experience, how useful is PLI's Study Guide? Does it sufficiently cover the stuff to be tested? Is it possible to pass the exam without reading MPEP at all? In other words, assuming one is extremely familiar with or knows the entire Study Guide by heart,  can he then pass the exam without having to painfully go through MPEP, or even part of it?

Your feedback is appreciated.


I posted the above message when I just started my PLI course. I passed the exam a few days ago, after about five to six weeks of study. I'd like to thank this forum, and everybody who has contributed to it, for the valuable information provided. Here’re some of my observations of the exam.

In theory, the exam shouldn’t be more difficult than previous paper-based exams. In practice, I found it to be the case too. There are two reasons for this. First of all, typically, there are at least 15 repeat questions in the exam. If we assume—and I believe this is a valid assumption too—that  these questions are graded,  and that we can get those 15 questions right without any problems, we are only left with 90-15=75 questions to deal with. Out of the 75 questions, we only need to get 43 (63-15=48 ) to pass. That is 48/75, which is only 64%, instead of 70%!!  And 64% is at least where you should be after taking a bar course like PLI for about five to ten days, even if you have never practiced patent law or know anything about it.

Secondly, the electronic exam format dictates that all questions and answers be displayed in one single screen without too much scroll up/down. I only found one exception to this, out of 100 questions. That means, long questions, or “two-handers” (questions which you can not cover with both hands on paper), questions involving multiple questions, are very rare, if not completely eliminated.  So in our preparation and study of old exam questions, we can skip those long questions involving complicated factual patterns.

Now let’s get down to the specifics. The questions are essentially a replay of many old exam questions with, of course, a few new, but relatively easy, additions. Passing the exam without looking at the MPEP is a real possibility, if we have thoroughly studies those old exam questions well. I only did exam questions between 2001 – 2003. That’s a total of 6 sets of exams (or 600 questions). But I feel that should be enough if you know all the answers very well. This has been emphasized many times over in this forum and I want to emphasize it again. The newly added question types have been discussed previously and won’t be repeated here, although overall, I feel I personally have benefited more from studying old exam questions than learning about those mentioned here (for example, I didn’t get any of those “classic” questions like foil wrapped airplanes/lip palm etc.)

If you don’t need have whole a lot of time to study for the patent bar, I would recommend you spend about five to ten days using a patent bar course (such as the PLI’s patent review course), like during the holiday season (I know this may sound crazy :) or weekends so that you get a good grasp of the basics. I found PLI is really a good course to bring you up to speed in an amazingly shout period of time. Then do as many practice questions as you can between now and the exam day. You may do so one or two hours at a time on a daily or weekly basis once your school starts. Preferably, you want to get used to staring at a dull screen while doing your practice questions (PLI has a nice PatWare for that too).  

I purchased the PLI HOME STUDY course (2005) a couple of months ago and  am selling my materials (still in new, unmarked conditions)on ebay. You may check it out if you’re interested. http://cgi.ebay.com/Patent-Bar-Review-Home-Study-Course-PLI-2005_W0QQitemZ6995397517QQcategoryZ2228QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Flunky on 12-17-05 at 06:52 pm
I took the test today, and I failed (67). Thanks to all of you who have posted to this forum and have left tips and suggestions. First, a little background. I am a experienced Engineering Manager with an MSEE and no background at all in patent law; other than I have been awarded several patents. I really thought I was well prepared for this test.  My own preparations for the test involved the following:

<>

3. I did the April and October 2003 exams on the computer using Acrobat 5.0 over and over and over until I could consistently "ace" them without looking up the answers.

4. I read the "Readers Digest" version of the MPEP on "openIPsource" http://www.openipsource.com/Courses/PatentBar/Materials/MPEP%20Summary.pdf).  

5. I did all this over a period of about 5 months, spending 2-3 hours a day. Some days, on weekends, I would spend 6 hours.

6. Test strategy: Make the previously-mentioned 1-50, A-E tables so I can keep track of obvious/unlikely answers. Quickly go through the whole test and answer any questions that were on the Apr/Oct 2003 exam and any questions I know for sure. Go back and answer the questions that I think I know, but maybe needed a lookup to verify. Mark those.  Afterwards, go back and look up the ones I skipped. In the time remaining, go back and look up the ones I marked.

In reality, what happened in the morning session is that it took me so much time to look up the skipped ones that I didn't have time to review the marked ones. In fact, in the last 10 seconds of time remaining, I had to guess at the last 2 skipped ones.  The afternoon session wasn't much better; although I did have time to check a few of the marked ones.

There were 24 questions that were from the 2003 exams, plus several others that I don't know which exam they were from (I got the electric toothbrush question). There were questions that you could search all day and never find the answer. There were questions in the form "Which of the following is proper USPTO practice and procedure" followed by 5 totally unrelated answers. This requires you to look up at least three of the answers, wasting a lot of time. There are several questions where the USPTO is just trying to trick you, or see if you can remember minute details that would rarely come up in actual practice. I found this very frustrating when I was doing the practice exams.

In summary, I found this to be the most difficult test I've ever had to take, including all of my engineering graduate courses on electromagnetic field theory, semiconductor physics, and esoteric math courses. I had hoped that I would never have to take this test again, but now I must prepare myself for more torture.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Flunky on 12-17-05 at 07:29 pm
Just as a follow-up. Unlike the previous poster (Cheshire Cat), I got a lot of long questions that required scrolling and had complicated fact chains. In your studying, I would not advise "skipping those long questions involving complicated factual patterns".

Regarding the test center (Santa Rosa, CA), I found the equipment to be fairly up-to-date, but the 14-15" monitor had the 60-Hz refresh rate problem (annoying flicker). I had no issues with hang-ups doing searches; although the function keys will not work, you have to click on the "search again" icon.  I had to leave everything but my ID and the clothes on my back in the provided locker. Environment (temperature, noise level, etc.) was great. They even give you ear muffs if you want even more quiet.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Cheshire Cat on 12-17-05 at 08:09 pm
Sorry to hear the bad news, Mr. Flunky.

I think you were right in that the lack of long questions in my exam was probably just luck of the draw and shouldn't be generalized and carried too far.  I also feel that the exam was very hard. To me it was the most nerve racking exam I'd ever taken. I didn't feel very nervous when I took the state bar. But on this one, I spent like 10 minutes before the flickering 17" monitor before I clicked to start, although afterwards I sort of feel it was (luckily) "easier" than, for instance, the 2003 exams. But again, that was just my personal observation. My room was very noisy with like 10 computers all running at the same time (people were taking different computerized exams). I was given ear muffs too but they were not comfortable to wear.

I was able to finish all questions in about 1 hour and half in both sessions. Whenever I saw an old "face" I just recklessly selected an answer I knew to be right and moved on, without further checking (for example, when I saw one of the five answers contained "one-hundred forty-seven", I just clicked on it and moved on :).  This obviously carried some risks but saved me a lot of time. I looked up MPEP to find (but most of the time just to double-check) answers for about 8-10 questions. Even if I didn't get hangup, it was very slow. Each time you select an answer, you had to close MPEP. Then you had to open it to look for the next answer. I wouldn't bet using MPEP to answer too many questions. It's not very efficient.

Just my two cents.




Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Flunky on 12-18-05 at 12:28 pm
Regarding opening and closing MPEP; if you're still on the same question, you don't need to do that. You can shrink the MPEP window a bit and move it around the screen to see the answers you need to look up in the background window. Just wanted to make sure everyone's aware of that to save you time with look-ups.

As an engineer, I have an analytical, rational mindset. This type of exam requires very little thinking or rationalization. It's really about brute-force memorization of a bunch of rules, regulations and procedures. There's no way someone can memorize all of the information in the MPEP; thus, looking up answers is very key to passing this exam. You must get really proficient at that.

Perhaps the law-type people out there are used to this type of testing methodology and will do better with the exam. From the posts I've seen in the past from engineers and engineering educators, this test requires a different approach than we're used to.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: seizure prevention on 12-19-05 at 01:43 pm
You may be able to adjust the monitors at the test center.  When I first looked at the monitor, it was flickering so badly I was feeling queasy, however, during the introductory tutorial, which gives you 15 minutes before the start of the exam) I was able to adust the refresh rate thus greatly reducing the flicker.  To do this, click on the right mouse button, select properties, click on the settings tab, click on the advance button, click on the monitor tab, select the highest refresh frequency rate from the drop down menu.  You may have to shrink down the program and right click while on the desktop.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: luckypasser on 12-21-05 at 11:56 am
i can't believe it but i passed.  my impression is that the exam was on par in difficulty with the past exams.  my strategy: whenever i recognized a past question/answer, i didn't even bother reading the rest of it and simply chose the answer--i think this really helped me save time for the lookups.  as everyone mentioned before, i can't stress how important practicing the past exams are for preparation--i think i had maybe 20-30 verbatim.  also, i read every page of this thread for questions that came up on other's exams (foil wing, spanish phone, lancer toothbrush, lip balm, etc...), which REALLY helped.  my advice is to find as many of those as you can.  many of those old questions came up (probably 10 or so) and i accredit my passing because of those questions--if you add up the past questions, i didn't have to answer very many new questions at all to pass.
i thank everyone who posted earlier!  i personally have the worst short term memory otherwise i would post more exam questions!  i didn't take a course or read the mpep, but did lots of practice questions and read an outline(although i did read a summary on the pct).  i am not a genius by any means, so i think my approach to the exam enabled me to pass. thanks again to past posters, good luck to future takers, and i wish even better luck to those who need to retest (i took the paper october 2003 and failed, so there's hope!).
james    
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: cgy1 on 12-29-05 at 09:45 pm
I'm currently studying to take the patent bar in January, and I am wondering if there is any word on when the USPTO will switch to testing on a later version of the MPEP. I'm assuming studying E8R2 is still the way to go for January?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: mamadoc on 01-02-06 at 01:22 pm
Wow, this forum is a GREAT find!  I am PLI rep for my school so have used PLI.  I scheduled my test (San Jose) for this coming Thurs, Jan 5, but am thinking of moving it to Jan 10, the next available slot.  Need to decide before noon tomorrow (noon 2 days prior to appt).

QUESTION:  ANYONE HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH THE SAN JOSE, CA TEST CENTER?  I am hoping that, in the heart of the Silly Con Valley, they have modern computers and decent monitors, but now I wonder...

Someone asked when Rev 3 will get to the exam.  I had called the USPTO about this, and they said, not til summer 2006.  So, we are safe with Rev 2 for awhile.

Someone said they got initial score of mid-60's and thus would not pass.  I read on some Patent Bar Prep company's website that if you just miss by a few, you should appeal.  Appeal every single question you got wrong, use any argument you can think of.  Apparently, the USPTO is pretty generous on appeals and you almost always get another point or two, sometimes 3 or 4.

Ina Bendis
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 01-03-06 at 02:46 pm
Quote
Wow, this forum is a GREAT find!  I am PLI rep for my school so have used PLI.  I scheduled my test (San Jose) for this coming Thurs, Jan 5, but am thinking of moving it to Jan 10, the next available slot.  Need to decide before noon tomorrow (noon 2 days prior to appt).

QUESTION:  ANYONE HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH THE SAN JOSE, CA TEST CENTER?  I am hoping that, in the heart of the Silly Con Valley, they have modern computers and decent monitors, but now I wonder...

Someone asked when Rev 3 will get to the exam.  I had called the USPTO about this, and they said, not til summer 2006.  So, we are safe with Rev 2 for awhile.

Someone said they got initial score of mid-60's and thus would not pass.  I read on some Patent Bar Prep company's website that if you just miss by a few, you should appeal.  Appeal every single question you got wrong, use any argument you can think of.  Apparently, the USPTO is pretty generous on appeals and you almost always get another point or two, sometimes 3 or 4.

Ina Bendis


1. San Jose Center is no different than other centers - same old crapy computers and little CRT monitors (with aweful frequency settings).
2. The apeal process is no longer available.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 01-03-06 at 03:31 pm
Correct.  The appeal process no longer exists.  When it did exist, it was extremely rare to get more than 2 points.  

There was at least one prep course offerer who used to go on and on about spotting a high number of appealable questions.  I'm not sure that turned out to be anything more than hype.

Title: First Financial Reward...
Post by: Cheshire Cat on 01-03-06 at 04:29 pm
Passing this very difficult bar exam may certainly bring us many benefits, among them is the pecuniary gain. Right after my passing the exam, I was offered to do a job at an hourly rate of $600. $600/hour, think about it! Fancy that!! Well, the only catch was that they only gave me five minutes to complete it.

It was a survey request from a major patent bar review company that offered to pay $50 in exchange for filling out their form. Buried in their four-page very easy questions is question about recently tested topics/subjects... I'm wondering whether that's where the central purpose of the survey is. Interesting, huh?

For those who are still working on the bar, I'm hoping this will serve as a little additional push to pass it... ^_^



Quote

I posted the above message when I just started my PLI course. I passed the exam a few days ago, after about five to six weeks of study. I'd like to thank this forum, and everybody who has contributed to it, for the valuable information provided. Here’re some of my observations of the exam.

In theory, the exam shouldn’t be more difficult than previous paper-based exams. In practice, I found it to be the case too. There are two reasons for this. First of all, typically, there are at least 15 repeat questions in the exam. If we assume—and I believe this is a valid assumption too—that  these questions are graded,  and that we can get those 15 questions right without any problems, we are only left with 90-15=75 questions to deal with. Out of the 75 questions, we only need to get 43 (63-15=48 ) to pass. That is 48/75, which is only 64%, instead of 70%!!  And 64% is at least where you should be after taking a bar course like PLI for about five to ten days, even if you have never practiced patent law or know anything about it.

Secondly, the electronic exam format dictates that all questions and answers be displayed in one single screen without too much scroll up/down. I only found one exception to this, out of 100 questions. That means, long questions, or “two-handers” (questions which you can not cover with both hands on paper), questions involving multiple questions, are very rare, if not completely eliminated.  So in our preparation and study of old exam questions, we can skip those long questions involving complicated factual patterns.

Now let’s get down to the specifics. The questions are essentially a replay of many old exam questions with, of course, a few new, but relatively easy, additions. Passing the exam without looking at the MPEP is a real possibility, if we have thoroughly studies those old exam questions well. I only did exam questions between 2001 – 2003. That’s a total of 6 sets of exams (or 600 questions). But I feel that should be enough if you know all the answers very well. This has been emphasized many times over in this forum and I want to emphasize it again. The newly added question types have been discussed previously and won’t be repeated here, although overall, I feel I personally have benefited more from studying old exam questions than learning about those mentioned here (for example, I didn’t get any of those “classic” questions like foil wrapped airplanes/lip palm etc.)

If you don’t need have whole a lot of time to study for the patent bar, I would recommend you spend about five to ten days using a patent bar course (such as the PLI’s patent review course), like during the holiday season (I know this may sound crazy :) or weekends so that you get a good grasp of the basics. I found PLI is really a good course to bring you up to speed in an amazingly shout period of time. Then do as many practice questions as you can between now and the exam day. You may do so one or two hours at a time on a daily or weekly basis once your school starts. Preferably, you want to get used to staring at a dull screen while doing your practice questions (PLI has a nice PatWare for that too).  

I purchased the PLI HOME STUDY course (2005) a couple of months ago and  am selling my materials (still in new, unmarked conditions)on ebay. You may check it out if you’re interested. http://cgi.ebay.com/Patent-Bar-Review-Home-Study-Course-PLI-2005_W0QQitemZ6995397517QQcategoryZ2228QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 01-05-06 at 06:37 am
I just took the Prometric exam for the second time, and passed! First time I got a 67% (yep, missed by a rounded up three answers). So, on the topic of money, I would like to add two cents on a couple of topics (yes, considerably below the $600/hr. rate above!), hoping they help others like me.

Exam in General:

Being a Registered Professional engineer, and having a BSEE and MS, I agree with a previous poster. This has been the hardest test I ever took. I think it is because in the others, you either knew the answer (or not), and then you did the math. Here, the nuances of the suggested answers are really something.

Morning/Afternoon:

First time, the morning gave me time to review, with the pm being a down to the wire effort. Second time it was the reverse. Without speculating on the people generating the test for Prometric, I would guess that there is no pattern.

I concur with the person suggesting caffeine for the afternoon. It helped to stay focused.

Exam and reviewing it at the USPTO:

Being in the East Coast, and having Southwest at my airport, I “invested” $100 to fly down to DC (actually BWI, but for $6 the train takes you to Union Station), to go see where I missed. Most of the ones I missed were on this board, but I “discovered” the board after the first failure in October. Bottom line however, was that none of the “really tough” questions I missed the first time were repeated the second time. (But I did not know that when I went to DC). . I still think it was a worthy investment, but like a poster before, if it had been $250, I’m not sure I would have gone to the USPTO.

Being able to do the above is continued East Coast bias (blame Jefferson). But remember that you guys out west can legally fax your documents to the USPTO at 2:59 am!

Review Course:

I first used OmniPrep, because for $295, you can’t go wrong. Their review material pretty much sucks, but at least it broke down the studying and the reviewing of the various sections of the MPEP. Halfway through October they changed their exams, I do not like their new setup as much. They promised my money back if I failed, and they did return it. So I can’t complaint.

I ended up using the http://www.openipsource.com/ review material much more. But alas, as someone mentioned here, they are now going to be a “for profit” arm of the Pierce guys (if you google it, and check out the cached answer, you can still see what it was organized as). As someone else mentioned, that’s the American way. I still thank them for their efforts.

Net-net:

Answer the ones you know (see below), right away. Nothing like looking at the clock with 1:30 remaining and knowing you have 30-35 of them in the bag.

As stated on this board, nothing helps to prepare for this test as knowing the previous exam answers (and the why). First time I was getting by with 80-85 correct answers per exam, this time I made sure to get that number to 90-95. I recognized a bunch of them verbatim, made sure they were as stated, and went for it.

Keep it simple. I really believe the examiners are not out there to mess with you. If the simple answer meets the requirement, go for it.

Best of luck,
;D
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Done with it. on 01-10-06 at 03:32 pm
Maybe it is just me but I didn't think that the exam was THAT hard. Yes, it was long and grueling, and the monitors at the test center gave me a bitch of a headache but the types of questions were no different from those discussed here or on past exams. In retrospect, I think I only saw about 10-15 repeat questions from past exams (I studied the 6 exams from spring 2001 to fall 2003). I did see about 15 PCT questions but I was expecting this - I read this board. The remaining questions that I still had questions about were easy to limit to 2 or 3 possible answers - for example, no matter how many times the test suggests it - you cannot get a filing date by FAX and most things require a Fee.

I have to say that I liked the search funtion for the supplied MPEP - it worked quickly and being able to limit your search by chapter was nice.

As for time  - I found the morning session harder than the afternoon - I finished going though the exam in about 2.3h and was just finishing up checking the questions that I had marked when the time ran out. The afternoon - was easy in comparison - I finished the questions in about 1.5h and took about an hour to go back and check everything that I even remotely had a question about. I know this helped because I was able to correct some of my errors after scanning through the MPEP.

Title: I passed!  I want to sell my home study kit.
Post by: Jerry Xu on 01-13-06 at 05:13 pm
 :D
I Passed with Jim longacre's study guide !!(www.passthepatentbar.com).

I failed my first exam by using PRG( patent resourses group, prof. Kayton & Prof. Gardner). Don't read me wrong, Prof. Gardner is doing an extremely good job teaching you the patent knowledge. But not enough is covered on how to pass the exam.

In contrast, Jim's course is very clear and concise. It just let you know everything you need to know to pass the exam. Nothing more and nothing less (I regard this as the beauty of Jim's course).

My study guide includes the whole package ( study guide and DVD). All in good condition. MPEP edition 8 rev 2 NOT included. But you can get it for free from PTO.

My email: jxu3609863@hotmail.com

-Jerry
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: angelito_pdx on 01-13-06 at 05:52 pm
Hi,

I am into my first week of studying for this Patent Exam.  In reading this board, however, I am starting to wonder as to what is the purpose of this exam.

It seems like it is just a matter of memorizing past exams.  How does memorizing past exams help with understanding the Patent Law?  How does taking this exam show that you can make logical deductions and follow due process?

At least in Software or Hardware Engineering, you have to write the code or develop the circuitry, which reflects how well you know the basic.

Perhaps I am misconstruing what I've read here about the exams; hence, please englighten me.  

Anyway, my first week's plan is to study Chapter 100: Secrecy, Access, National Security, and Foreign Filing.

Right off the bat, I came across something that threw me for a loop, and am asking any aspiring or practicing lawyer out there who can explain.

In 37 CFR 1.14, paragraph (iv) Unpublished abandoned application, there are some statements:
"An application is considered to have been identified in a document, such as a patent, when the applicaition number or serial number and filing date, first named inventor, title and filing date or other application specific  information are provided in the text of the patent, but not when the same identification is made in a paper in the file contents of the patent and is not included in the printed patent..."

I have no clue what was just stated.  Can someone clarify in plain English?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 01-13-06 at 08:42 pm
Memorizing past exams wouldn't take you too far. The exam is all about memorizing the MPEP. Chap. 2100 requires little more than simple memorization.

Moreover, patent bar tests the procedure of prosecuting patent applications; patent prosecution is just one aspect of the patent law.


37 CFR 1.14, paragraph (iv) - I think you meant 37 CFR 1.14(a)(1)(iv). If this is your first reading of MPEP, you will not understand lots of things at first. But, once you read more chapters, things will start to come together. For instance, you will understand this section of CFR better after reading the chapter which deals with "claiming priority to a pending application".

my 2 cents.

Quote
Hi,

I am into my first week of studying for this Patent Exam.  In reading this board, however, I am starting to wonder as to what is the purpose of this exam.

It seems like it is just a matter of memorizing past exams.  How does memorizing past exams help with understanding the Patent Law?  How does taking this exam show that you can make logical deductions and follow due process?

At least in Software or Hardware Engineering, you have to write the code or develop the circuitry, which reflects how well you know the basic.

Perhaps I am misconstruing what I've read here about the exams; hence, please englighten me.  

Anyway, my first week's plan is to study Chapter 100: Secrecy, Access, National Security, and Foreign Filing.

Right off the bat, I came across something that threw me for a loop, and am asking any aspiring or practicing lawyer out there who can explain.

In 37 CFR 1.14, paragraph (iv) Unpublished abandoned application, there are some statements:
"An application is considered to have been identified in a document, such as a patent, when the applicaition number or serial number and filing date, first named inventor, title and filing date or other application specific  information are provided in the text of the patent, but not when the same identification is made in a paper in the file contents of the patent and is not included in the printed patent..."

I have no clue what was just stated.  Can someone clarify in plain English?

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Marcos on 01-17-06 at 05:04 pm
Does anyone know where I can get some old PCT questions to review aside from the ones available on the USPTO website.

I checked the openipsource website and there are no longer any accessible PCT review questions there.  (Or at least, I am unable to locate them.)

I have the exam scheduled in one week.  

Thanks
-Marcos
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: angelito_pdx on 01-20-06 at 12:34 am
Hi Marcos,

I hope it is not too late, but here are the info you were looking for:

http://web.archive.org/web/20050206134218/openipsource.com/PatentBarReviewCourse.html

My head is spinning in reading all of Chapter 100...I am thinking about just bunkering down and use OmniPrep.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: mamadoc on 01-20-06 at 07:29 am
 :D

I took the Patent Bar yesterday at the San Jose CA center and passed.  I want to thank all of you here for the great information about what to expect.  Before telling you about my experience (which I hope will be helpful to future candidates), I will mention that all the OmniSource archive links are dead now, and answer the question: "Does anyone know where I can get some old PCT questions?"  Go to: http://www.patentbarreview.com/ and scroll about 1/2 way down.  The nice thing about this site is that they tell you what questions to ignore in the older tests due to the changes in the MPEP.  This is, by the way, PLI's site -- I was their rep and took their course and it is the best.  If you want to take it, I can probably get you a discount -- email me at ikbendis@aol.com.

I spent the 3 days prior to the exam doing old exams, especially (at PLI mentor John White's recommendation) the 2003 ones, until I was getting at least 94% on all of them routinely.  For some reason there were some that I kept getting wrong over and over but you can't win em all.

OK, so here is how it went for me.  The morning was just awful -- only about a half-dozen repeats, lots of obscure dead and comatose inventors lurking about, lots of things to look up, trying to get used to the orientation of the things on the screen.  I committed the terrible sin of not realizing that I had almost no time left, and did not have time to put checkmarks in random boxes in two of the questions I had left blank with the intent of returning.

Thanks to the WONDERFUL input from this Board, I spent my lunch hour going over 1800 and racing once more thru a bunch of questions (either the Oct or April) 2003 PM exam.  

Well, as you guys predicted, the afternoon was chock full of PCT (and easy-to-look-up Appeal) questions so, that worked out great.  But the real clincher was that the afternoon must have had at least a dozen -- maybe 15 [after a while I lost count] -- old questions, word-for-word (except Lancer, which as someone had mentioned has been changed to not mention the power supply in the invention, so now it has only one correct answer, putting the switch on the other side, i.e., "E").

There were all my old friends ... the PCT question where the correct answer is B (some date in 2000) rather than A (some date in 1999), nonprovisional doesn't need FOT to get date, the one where the answer is E having to do with some Japanese patent priority thing, the doorknob with the handle and the bar, the question where both A and D were accepted, etc.  But, no, "Mr. 147" did not make his appearance...

Anyway, as awful as the morning was, those friendly old questions made the afternoon a total breeze so that I finished my first run-thru with a half-hour to spare and was able to go back to my marked answers (two of which I had originally chosen the wrong answr but was able to correct due to having all that extra MPEP time).

YOU GUYS WHO WILL BE TAKING IT -- MAKE SURE YOU KNOW THE 2003 AND ALSO 2002 EXAMS WELL ENOUGH THAT YOU CAN RACE THRU EACH OF THEM IN AN HOUR AND CONSISTENTLY GET OVER 90%!

I also was pleased to see some of the ones you folks spoke of, like the lady with the lip gloss who used it for over a year after completing her invention.  By the way, in the question where "lever" was answer [A] I disagree with those who picked that.  I don't recall the question but I did notice the "lever"!  Haha.  No foil airplane though...

Anyway, it is real nice to have this additional credential.  I am looking forward to doing the patent agent thing and hopefully, pursuant to passing the July 2006 California Bar Exam, becoming a patent lawyer!

Thanks again for all your help and support!

Ina Bendis AKA "mamadoc"
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 01-20-06 at 08:55 am
Hi Ina,

Congrats.

I passed the patent bar exam about 7-8 months ago and got several offers from local law firms.  Joined a medium size one part time without leaving my technology job. Just quit the law firm to prepare for Feb 2006 CA bar.

Meaning, there are plenty of opportunities in San Jose bay area, SFO area for patent professionals.

good luck.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 01-20-06 at 09:14 am
Old but might be useful

http://www.seanet.com/~bross/index99.htm
Title: chapter 26 optional inter parte reexaminations
Post by: Newbies on 01-20-06 at 02:13 pm
I'll take the exam next week.  I am just wondering if any guys out there know how much time should be spent on the optional inter parte reexaminations.  Are there actually any questions related to this chapter on recent exams?

Thanks a lot for your help
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: LJG on 01-24-06 at 04:02 pm


I am reviewing for the PTO exam.  Some answers list references to "Submission of info in a reply to a first Office Action" 67 FR XXX or "Changes to Implement the Patent Business Goals; Final Rule," 65 FR XXX.

I've searched in the USC, CFR and MPEP, but I can't seem to locate these sections.  I am concerned that some of the questions will be pulled from these sections.

Where can I locate these references during the exam?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 01-24-06 at 04:32 pm
Those references are not going to be available during the exam.  The citations are to the Federal Register where changes and proposed changes to the CFR appear.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Jcam on 01-25-06 at 03:55 pm
DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY PLI PREP MATERIALS FOR SALE?

???  I need some advice.  I am in a desparate state.  I took the Patent Bar today and I did not pass.  And now I do not know what to do.

I used the BARBRI review materials and I only scored in the high 50s.  I am working as an attorney (former engineer), and I really cannot afford to take any more time off of work.  I took a week off, and to be honest it was not enough time for my brain to absorb enough to pass!  I really wish there were old exams from 2004 to review.  I need more PCT practice questions!!  I did most of the practice questions in BARBRI and all of the past exams.  I know I need more time to commit the material to memory, but I am not sure if I can make up the 13 points I need.  If I take the exam again, I need to do it quickly, but I am unsure how to approach it differently!!  Please help!

Prior to the 7 day crash studying, I had already viewed the home study DVDs, etc.  I had not started any practice questions other than the standard 10 which were suggested at the end of each lecture.  I did go through their practice questions and old exams; however, I ran out of time to reach the level of success and familiarity with these exams as INA suggested.  I knew that I really did not have a chance of passing; however, the only benefit is I did get to see what is on the exam (emphasis on PTO, Appeal Procedure questions, etc.)  But this is the first time I have actually failed an exam, and that is a horrible feeling.   So, I KNOW I need to put more time into studying (although I am terrified of the possibility of not being able to pass on a second try); however, I am wondering can I do it (pass the bar) with my BARBRI materials?  

DOES anyone or is anyone willing to sell their PLI materials?  Please let me know ASAP
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 01-25-06 at 04:03 pm
If time is short, I suggest taking one of the live courses and putting in some evening time.    One week sounds to me like woefully inadequate preparation, so maybe the good news is that you can probably pass with an adequate effort.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: mamadoc on 01-26-06 at 06:50 am
1- Patento, I'd love to pick your brain off-line.  Would you please email me?  ikbendis@aol.com

2- Jcam, figure that prepping for the patent bar takes 150-200 hours.  40 hrs just won't do it.  BarBri Patent Bar course is supposedly not that good (have not seen it but that is what I have heard).  The best one is the PLI course, which you can do at home at your leisure (like I did).  You do not have to take off work, just take enough time to study.  That means 150 hrs or more, so it may take a few months if you are doing it just in the evening.  And, like I said above, AFTER you have finished the course, do the 2001,2002 and 2003 exams (which they give you as part of the course) over and over and over until you can whiz thru them fast and always get over 90% each time.  Then you will pass.  No question about it.  Ina
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Kevin M on 01-26-06 at 09:25 am
Hello all.   I have been visiting this forum for a few months, but this is my first post.  I sat the exam for the first time on Monday in San Jose and passed (provisionally at least).  Phew!  That was not something that I wanted to go through again.  I would rate the San Jose test center as quite good.  It was quiet and easy to find.  The monitors were a little small and had poor refresh rates, but I did not find it distracting after starting the exam.

Can someone tell me about how long it will be before I hear from the PTO?

As many other posters have mentioned, this forum was a great asset in preparing.  I also saw the lever and lip balm questions.  There were at least 5 questions on the japanese application followed by PCT w/wo entry into the national stage.  The morning was by far more difficult then the afternoon, at least for me.  Some of this probably had to do with nerves settling down, but I also believe the content was easier in the afternoon.  The morning seemed to include a lot of appeal questions (at least eight).  The afternoon had more "look this up and state the answer verbatum" type questions.  There were at least two questions that said "prima facie anticipation", rather than obviousness, which I overlooked the first time I read the answers.

As for studying, I used the Kayton (PRG) video course.  I found it took time to work through, but that the video material gave me a good foundation for answering questions that came out of the blue.  I would recommend any type of classroom type course to people who can afford the time.  I focused exclusively on old exams and practice questions for the last month.  For those of you who haven't taken the exam yet, it is hard to explain how good it feels to see a repeat question!

Congrats to all who came before me, and best of luck to all that follow!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Seriously on 01-26-06 at 02:56 pm
Quote
And some of the Federal Registration citations are here:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/dapp/ogsheet.html

Does anyone read this massive archive ? I am taking pat bar in five days and wondering if anyone has any recommandations regarding fed citations.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: mamadoc on 01-26-06 at 09:05 pm
Also passed at SJ center.  Passed Thurs, got letter in mail with forms to fill out today.  After we fill out forms, they publish name in gazette for 6 weeks or so, then take another month.  So figure about 3 mo from the date you took the test you will be a patent agent.

Ina
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: tayan on 01-27-06 at 04:46 pm
Took the exam today & provisionally passed!!!

I suggest not wasting your money on the course and simply download the mpep off the internet for free and take the exams off the PTO website until you are scoring in the 90's on all of them.

In my opinion, the morning was harder than the afternoon.  The questions were similar to the ones posted on this site.  In the morning, I had a lot of small entity, assignment, inventor (death, incapacity), patentability, disclosure, RCE, QS.
In the afternoon, it was primarily re-issue, re-exam, PCT, obviousness QS.

I'm going to begin a complete mind dump of what QS I remember, so hold on tight...
1)  1st Q was a repeat off 2003 w/ regard to Foregn filing in Japan.  
2) Lancer toothbrush
3) compound Y, cure for cancer not incredible utility
4) computer 1GB, RAM & processor speed
5) design patent from abroad, 6 mo to claim priority
6) PCT appl cannot be filed via fassimile
7) claim for  walking across the street.  5 steps
8) when is suppl oath treated as an amendment? A. after NOA in reisssue
9) necessary reqt's of provisional & non-provisional
10) re-exam on claim1-4, claim 5 deals with a separator.  the one that enlarges the scope deal w/ a method instead of an apparatus
11) Plenty of PCT QS w/ the US as a RO dealing w/ non-nationals who file, translations, filing dates.
12) for a re-exam, remember that only patents can be used.
13) for RCE, remeber when it may be used and when it cannot.
14) if AA is received b4 SSP ends, you calculate your extension period from SSP
15) Pre-AIPA QS - US patent can obtain prior art date wen NSA fulfills 371(c) reqt's.  Remember, for Pre-AIPA, US Patent pubications do NOT have a prior art date.
16) IDS question after NOA.  submit a submission, fee, and 1.97(e) statement
17) 102(g) req't.s for ex-parte rejection.    
18)  suspended practioner QS.  look in ch.400
19) for a 1.131 declaration, it cannot be used to overcome a statutory bar
20) PCT - USRO is used to file IA.  what is needed upon 30 months from prioroity date?  only the fee b/c the IA has already been given to the USRO.  Remember, if you filed in another USRO and then want to enter the US, you must submit the IA & fee.
21)  enablement QS - your appl does not require a stmt which specifially points out the best mode.  ch2100
22) ADS vs Oath Decl. -  Oath decl trumps ADS when it comes to citizenship issues.
23) claim w/ elements ABCD.  add ABCDE , then remove A leaving only BCDE:  perfectly fine if supported by original disclosure
24) Appeal - if applt argues claims 1,4,6 in brief.  the examiner must consider 1,4,6 separately on its merits.
25) QS of 103 elements.  

Hope it helps.








:D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: SciGuy on 01-27-06 at 05:15 pm
nice post Tayan!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: qman on 01-28-06 at 08:32 pm
Whats Pre-AIPA?  I just started to study.  

BTW, thanks for the great post!  Very useful info.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: tayan on 01-29-06 at 02:04 pm
pre AIPA are the rules for 102(e) prior art before 11/29/00.

before 11/29/00, publications could not be used as prior art, only US patents that were granted could be used.  As for int'l appl's, they could only be used as prior art as of the date the the Nat'l Stage Appl fulfilled the req'ts of 35 USC 371(c).

on/after 11/29/00, patent publications could also be used.  Also, US appl's could bridge priority back to the filing date of the IA so long as it was filed on/after 11/29/00.


it can be found in various places of the mpep.  I particularly liked the explanation in MPEP 700.

Hope it helps.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: kajrare on 01-31-06 at 07:55 pm
How long did everyone study for the patent bar? I know people are saying about 200 hours, is that the consensus? Could I study nights/weekends and take it in 3 months?

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: saffin on 02-01-06 at 11:21 am
That's exactly how I did it.  I studied between 2.5 and 3 hours a day after work and 7 to 10 hours per weekend everyday for three months.  I used PLI and it was excellent.  The key for me was to study methodically and take very few days off.  (I may have taken 2 days off.)  One other recommendation is to set a deadline for yourself early on.  If, for whatever reason, you are not ready to take it then, which I wasn't for my first deadline, you can always schedule another deadline.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Scott on 02-01-06 at 05:37 pm
I passed after studying for 3 weeks, 8 hrs or more per day. PLI recommends you study in 4 hour chunks, so the way you are suggesting sounds better than what I did.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: emanon on 02-03-06 at 08:15 pm
I am trying to find materials to begin my studying for the patent bar exam and I was sad to see that openIPsouce has now been pulled off of the web because it intends to be a pay service.  I was wondering if anyone here has downloaded the .pdf files from the site before it was shut down.  I belive these would be of great value to me in preparing for the emam.  If you could post any of this information or PM me about possibly emailing me the files it would be excellent.  Thanks!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: skoz686-iplaw on 02-07-06 at 08:23 pm

The "Patent Bar Simulator " site says:

"The computer-delivered USPTO registration exam is proctored at locations with access to a copy of the Manual of Patent Examining Procedure (MPEP) that can be searched for specific text in its entirety. The copies of the MPEP provided here facilitate a similar search both through the Adobe Acrobat Reader search function and the Quick MPEP page search available below.

Quick MPEP Page & Section Search:
Use this search to find the pages on which a specific phrase appears and then jump (Ctrl+N in Acrobat Reader) directly to that page in our single file versions of the MPEP. This quick search is also integrated into the menu of our Patent Bar Simulator."

You can see the above information here:

http://www.catprep.com/exams/patent-bar/mpep/searchable_mpep.html

But after looking at the "Prometric Online Sample Test" here:

http://www.prometric.com/demos/uspto/starthere.htm

it seems that you can only search the MPEP one chapter at a time, and NOT in its entirety.

Can those who already took the test please shed some light on this?

Can the MPEP given in the actual USPTO exam be searched both in its entirety and one chapter at a time, or can it only be searched one chapter at a time?


Thanks!

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: trey lepontier on 02-08-06 at 08:05 am
I believe you can search only one chapter at a time but I could be wrong on this - - It's been quite awhile since I've taken the exam.  In any event, I think that searching by chapter is more productive that searching the whole MPEP.

Before going into the exam, you should have the main chapter numbers (i.e. 600, 700, 2100, etc.) memorized according to the topic covered in each chapter - - e.g., knowing that "Ownership and Assignment" is covered in MPEP 300 will allow you to go directly to that chapter and begin searching for an answer - - this will save you precious time on the exam.

DO NOT waste too much time on any one question.  Instead, go through each question and answer it, noting those that you are unsure about - - with whatever time remains, go through the MPEP to confirm (or change) your initial answer.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patent_misfit on 02-08-06 at 11:40 am
Great posts by everyone to date! I'm on home stretch, preparing to take the exam next Tuesday (Valentine's Day). Took the PRG course, studied since June 1st last year, and have been taking practice tests for the past month.

Two things I hadn't paid much attention to before reading this forum were:
- Although I took the 2003 exams (once) I hadn't bothered to review them until I know the questions and all answers cold. I will now.
- I had become more comfortable searching through the 37 CFR Rules than the MPEP, due to brevity. However, I now see that there is higher value in knowing the MPEP, since the answers come directly from it. So some crash MPEP time is in order, to understand where the main topics might be.

I thought the PRG materials and classroom lectures were very good, but perhaps oriented more toward understanding patent law and how it operates rather than simply passing the patent bar. As such, it was very well suited to me, who was in no rush and had as much time as I needed to study everything. That said, I'm a bit nervous about taking the test next week and most definitely need to improve my efficiency in MPEP lookup.

Crossing my fingers...!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: skoz686-iplaw on 02-08-06 at 04:16 pm

Quote
I believe you can search only one chapter at a time but I could be wrong on this - - It's been quite awhile since I've taken the exam.  In any event, I think that searching by chapter is more productive that searching the whole MPEP.

Before going into the exam, you should have the main chapter numbers (i.e. 600, 700, 2100, etc.) memorized according to the topic covered in each chapter - - e.g., knowing that "Ownership and Assignment" is covered in MPEP 300 will allow you to go directly to that chapter and begin searching for an answer - - this will save you precious time on the exam.

DO NOT waste too much time on any one question.  Instead, go through each question and answer it, noting those that you are unsure about - - with whatever time remains, go through the MPEP to confirm (or change) your initial answer.


Trey,

Thanks a lot for the information and your advice!

I guess the information on the Patent Bar Simulator site is misleading then?

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Dan Black on 02-09-06 at 01:57 am
Regarding the search function of the computerized exam - you can only search one chapter at a time.  You CANNOT do a full mpep search on the exam.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: pingsj2004 on 02-11-06 at 04:54 pm
Would you like to offer your study material for the test you passed? thank you.
I am a full time student

Lisa
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Tom Lavan on 02-15-06 at 10:10 am
Whew! I took the exam yesterday, and was fortunate to get a Provisional pass. Now on pins & needles waiting for the official word.

It was harder than I expected. I thought I went into it very well prepared, but I was caught off-guard by the emphasis. I was hearing from others that there will be lots of Reissue, ex-parte Reexam, PCT, and 102(e) prior art questions. If I had to rate the areas most frequently asked (in order) it would be:

   1. Priority claiming and perfection to foreign and international applications (MPEP 200) - I'll bet that 30-40 questions touched on this. Know it cold!
   2. Assignment (MPEP 300)
   3. Restriction practice (800?)
   4. 35 USC 112, 102, and 103, especially 112 and 103  
   5. Publication of patents - some of these were pretty tricky    
   6. Appeal (MPEP 1200)
   7. Correction of Patents (MPEP 1400), mostly reissue, but some certificate of correction
   8. MPEP 600 - the complete process of submitting an application. Concentrate on Final rejections and options
   9. PCT (MPEP 1800) - especially several questions about entering the National Stage. I doubt more than 10 questions on the whole test involved PCT
  10. Inventorship and some dead inventor questions
  11. Representation
  12. Ex-Parte Reexam - probably 2 questions, but some (wrong) answers to other questions mentioned reexam
  13. 102(e) as prior art - 1-2 questions
  14. Interferences - 1 question (from old exams, too)

NO questions at all on inter partes reexam, terminal disclaimers, claim counting, multiple dependent claims, or patent term adjustment. From the old exams, I estimate that about 15-20 were present, notably the Lancer Toothbrush, flavored Lip Gloss, and "Potter". I read these old questions looking for subtle differences from the old tests, but I detected no trickery - exactly the same questions and answers.

For me, the morning part of the test was MUCH tougher than the afternoon. The first 5 questions all had complex and confusing fact patterns that took me a long time to look up (with 50-60% certainty). That put me behind such that I scrambled in the last few minutes to get all anwered - with no time for review. During the lunch break, I really thought I was hosed. Anyway, the afternoon was much easier and I was able to attack it aggressively. I thought I had a reasonable chance to pass as the end of the day, but if I passed it wouldn't be by much.

It seems to me that you are best served to take it immediately after a thorough review. There are just too many nitpicky details to commit to memory. On the other hand, you won't have the time to look up everything so need to know enough to get you past the easier questions.

The MPEP viewer was a major problem for me. It "resets" to a blank screen on each new question, so you need to restart any search or lookup from scratch. When it comes up, I had to resize the zoomed document each time as the text was much too small for me to read. I figure 5-6 mouseclicks minimum before I was even viewing something I could read. That is part of the reason you may not have time to look up everything. As others have indicated, refresh rate for monitor set too low and it flickers noticeably. In the test center I went to, all monitors were 17". Good news though - the computer did have a mouse wheel that made the viewer infinitely easier to use.

Good luck to all who are taking it, or plan to. Get a good night's sleep before so you are fresh and ready to focus.

I really recommend Professors Kayton and Gardner (PRG) materials. Not only to they prepare you well for the test, but I think they provide a good grounfing in the fundamentals of how patent law works. Not cheap, but then....

Tom
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: skoz686-iplaw on 02-16-06 at 01:15 am

Tom,

Thanks for the excellent recap of your experience.

30-40 questions related to Chapter 200! Wow!

I guess your summary is a fair warning to future test takers that one can no longer focus on only certain chapters. The USPTO is selecting chapters at will, and asking a bunch of questions from them.

They are probably trying to make the exam harder and less predictable. They may even be tracking this forum and finding that exam takers are seeing a pattern. So, they are trying to change that pattern.

In any case, reading the MPEP thoroughly will probably be a good idea for future test takers.

I'll take the exam in April. I just completed Chapter 100. Now, I'll start Chapter 200.

Chapter 200 was not on my list to read more than once. Now, I'll read the entire Chapter at least twice! Same goes for Chapters 300, 600, 800, and 35 USC 112, 102, 103.

You are right when you said it is not possible to remember every little detail, as there are too many. Also, it is a good idea to take the test right after completing your study, when the material is still fresh on your mind.

But knowing where things are in the MPEP, practising old exam questions again and again, and knowing why the wrong answers are wrong, will probabaly save time in the exam. As there isn't enough time to look up everything.

I am preparing by reading each chapter directly from the MPEP, and solving old exam questions. I'm not using any study guides.

By the way Tom, how many weeks and how many hours per day did you study? Did you directly read from the MPEP? When doing the old exams, how far back did you go, 2000, 1999, 1998?

Thanks again!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patent.b on 02-16-06 at 09:11 am
Timeline info for those who have passed.

I took the exam on December 13, 2005 & got provisional pass notice that day (Tuesday).  The letter telling me I had passed came the following Thursday.  This is a little longer than other poster's took; I assume it was due to the holidays and my location on the West Coast.  I immediately sent in the forms & fee.  My name was published in the Gazette on the Feb. 03, 2006 list.  On Feb 08 I was able to pull up my name by using the Advanced Search feature on the USPTO website.  My registration certificate arrived in the mail on Feb 11, and today I can pull up my name using the regular patent attorney search.  So altogether, about 2 months from taking the exam to everything being done--really not too bad considering that just a couple years ago I would have waited almost that long to find out if I'd even passed!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Tom Lavan on 02-16-06 at 09:53 am
Skoz,

I signed up with PRG and received their materials at the end of May last year. From a patent attorney I work with a lot who had previously taken PRG a few years ago, I started studying on June 1st. I in put an hour per weekday, with about 8 hours each weekend. I completed all 27 chapters of study in mid-December. I then took off until January 8th, when I attended a week-long review course. I estimate I put in somewhere around 400 hours total, but that includes reviewing everything PRG provided, at least once. I do realize that their materials covers more than just what is needed to pass the exam, but that was what I was after.

Taking off the 3-4 weeks was a mistake, in retrospect. I believe you need to constantly and regularly refresh the material. I didn't start taking practice tests or using the Examware CD until the classroom week in January, but made sure I did some practice questions each day up to the exam. I do feel that I took enough practice tests. I'm not sure how far back the Examware pracice questions go, but I believe it is somewhere in the 90's when there were "True/False" and other answers with less than 5 choices.

I really didn't study from the MPEP, although I believe that alone can be effective practice for the exam. One of the mistakes I made in my early prep was referencing the Rules whenever possible, as opposed to the MPEP. The rules are much briefer and many items can be quickly found in the rules. But the MPEP IS the exam, so you are more likely to find the answer verbatim in the MPEP.

After 45 minutes in the morning session, I had completed only about 5 questions, and those 5 with about 50% certainty. I remember thinking "this wasn't how the test was supposed to go..." and "these 5 questions must be some of the beta questions". As you have observed, the topic emphasis (at least on my exam) was much different from what others have observed. In the afternoon, I recall 4 questions in a row dealing with restriction practice! "Whats up with that"?

Best of luck on the exam, and follow the advice of others here - very good advice indeed!

Patent.b - your timeline seems to mirror what I am hearing from others - very close to 2 months from taking the exam.

Tom
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Taxman on 02-16-06 at 08:53 pm
My date with destiny is the first week of April. Took PRI course in December. Not as prepared as I should have been. Have been serious now for several weeks. Daily 2 hrs. Answering old questions. Plus additional time reading till My head spins. My mind is ready to burst from all the minutia.... and I have a ways to go. This forum is scaring the bejesus out of me. Will go back to my studying. have gone thru about half the material. Will keep studying. Some of the material is so bloody nitpicky- its driving me nuts. Other materila I kinda like.
Shrugs. Good luck everyone.

T
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 02-17-06 at 06:15 am
Taxman,

Your study program appears to me to be on schedule.   If your uncertainty motivates you to study seriously, that's a good thing.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: IPonYou on 02-19-06 at 07:20 pm
I could not come up with answers with exam questions that were posted on this board, and maybe someone can help me with it.  

Q1: Applicant files a PCT, but then changes his mind and files an international application - know what happens when the two conflict?  (the person who posted this picked the answer that said that the International Application was O.K., but the PCT was not)


Q2: a patent containing claims 1-10 has issued.  the subject matter of claims 1-5 was invented by inventor A, who has assigned his rights to your client, company C.  the subject matter of claims 6-10 was invented by inventor B, who refuses to cooperate with company C unless he is the sole named inventor of his own patent.  company C wishes to divide the claims such that one patent contains only claims 1-5 and has inventor A as the sole inventor, and another patent contains claims 6-10 and has inventor B as the sole inventor.  how should you advise your client?
a) this is impossible.
b) use a certificate of correction to cancel claims 6-10 and remove inventor B from the patent, and file a divisional application on claims 6-10 listing B as the inventor.
c) file a reissue, cancel claims 6-10, and remove B as an inventor.
d) file a reissue of the original application along with a divisional reissue, cancel claims 1-5 and remove inventor A from the first reissue, move claims 6-10 and inventor B to the divisional reissue.
e) file two simultaneous reissue applications from the same patent, cancel claims 1-5 and remove inventor A from the first reissue, cancel claims 6-10 and remove inventor B from the second reissue.


I'd pick A or D, probably A.  I think that reissue should be used only if there is a defect in the patent, and simply wanting to split the patent does not qualify as a  reason for filing reissue.


what do you guys think?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: IPonYou on 02-19-06 at 07:23 pm
 I could not come up with answers with exam questions that were posted on this board, and maybe someone can help me with it.  

Q1: Applicant files a PCT, but then changes his mind and files an international application - know what happens when the two conflict?  (the person who posted this picked the answer that said that the International Application was O.K., but the PCT was not)


Q2: a patent containing claims 1-10 has issued.  the subject matter of claims 1-5 was invented by inventor A, who has assigned his rights to your client, company C.  the subject matter of claims 6-10 was invented by inventor B, who refuses to cooperate with company C unless he is the sole named inventor of his own patent.  company C wishes to divide the claims such that one patent contains only claims 1-5 and has inventor A as the sole inventor, and another patent contains claims 6-10 and has inventor B as the sole inventor.  how should you advise your client?
a) this is impossible.
b) use a certificate of correction to cancel claims 6-10 and remove inventor B from the patent, and file a divisional application on claims 6-10 listing B as the inventor.
c) file a reissue, cancel claims 6-10, and remove B as an inventor.
d) file a reissue of the original application along with a divisional reissue, cancel claims 1-5 and remove inventor A from the first reissue, move claims 6-10 and inventor B to the divisional reissue.
e) file two simultaneous reissue applications from the same patent, cancel claims 1-5 and remove inventor A from the first reissue, cancel claims 6-10 and remove inventor B from the second reissue.


I'd pick A or D, probably A.  I think that reissue should be used only if there is a defect in the patent, and simply wanting to split the patent does not qualify as a  reason for filing reissue.


what do you guys think?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patent_misfit on 02-23-06 at 09:45 am
Just got my pass letter yesterday - yahoo!!! Does anyone know what the approximate pass rate is? Only think I have seen is what PRI/PRG publish - which seems to be as much propoganda against each other as anything...

PM
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: BTP on 02-23-06 at 10:12 am
Quote
Just got my pass letter yesterday - yahoo!!! Does anyone know what the approximate pass rate is? Only think I have seen is what PRI/PRG publish - which seems to be as much propoganda against each other as anything...

PM


No way at all to tell the pass rate since the self-scheduled exams were started.  Welcome to the openness typical of today's PTO.

Congrats on passing, though.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: angelito_pdx on 02-23-06 at 01:33 pm
How much?

Angel
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: gg on 02-23-06 at 04:43 pm
 8)

Hi, Angel:

How about $500 total? S/H is on me. The package weighs about 40 lbs. Drop me a mail.

:-*
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: hoya2006 on 02-24-06 at 06:20 pm
Just took the test today and provisionally passed.  I found this board to be very helpful and wanted to say thanks to all those who have posted.  Hopefully my comments will also be of some help to those of you studying now and in the future.  

I started studying in early January, so I spent about 6 weeks and about 100 hours total.  I used BarBri's course b/c the firm I will be working for in the fall picked up the cost.  The material consists of outlines that BarBri has created themselves (as well as the actual MPEP) along with practice questions from the past 12 years of exams.  The package also included DVD recordings from the live BarBri course.  As with many of the people on this board, I gained the most from doing tons and tons of practice questions.  BarBri recommends doing about 200 hours of study, but I worked at the PTO for 2 years, so I could get away with less study time...otherwise, BarBri's estimate seems about right if you want to pass the first time.  

I took the exam at the DC test center.  The facility was nice (albeit a little warm at times) and the people were friendly.  My computer actually restarted during the AM session, but they were able to fix the problem pretty quickly and none of my answers were lost.  Screens were CRT and had flicker issues, but I think all test centers will be like that.  

The exam was a little harder than the previous exams, but it was pretty much what I expected after reading through this board.  I had about 25 repeats from previous exams.  I had done the 2003 exams twice (and pretty much memorized all the questions and answers), so I was able to breeze  through those questions, which was huge b/c I needed the extra time to do the more difficult questions.  New questions (that I can remember) from the AM session included 4 on dead inventors and one on CRF for sequences.  PM was much harder, with 5 or 6 new PCT questions and many, many appeal and reexam.  

My advice is to know the 2003 exams cold so that you can pick up free points there and be very comfortable with searching the Adobe version of the MPEP...many answers will be almost copied verbatim from the MPEP, so you just have to know how to find it.  Pretty much the same advice that others have given, but it's good advice.  

If anyone is interested in buying my BarBri books (sorry, had to return the DVDs), send me a message.  If you have questions about the exam, the BarBri course, or working at the PTO, feel free to send me a message as well.  

Good luck to everyone!   :)
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Hard Worked Paid Off on 02-24-06 at 08:59 pm
Thank you to those who have posted to this post.  I passed the exam on the second try.

FIRST ATTEMPT.

I took the exam in September and scored a 65.  In hindsight I should have postponed the exam.  My daughter, 3 months old at  the time,  was very sick and I didn't sleep the night before the exam. I am an Associate at a large firm and work a lot.

I took the Kayton Course.  The Course provides a good foundation and covers the basics very well.  However, this Exam is VERY specific and the Course didn't cover the highly specific questions on the exam.  Also,  I used the  CD-rom and found it to be okay at best

I took the 2003 exams twice and reviewed this board , but obviosuly that wasn't enough to pass.  

VISIT TO THE PTO.
After failing the exam,  I visited the PTO to review my missed questions.  I am VERY glad I did so.  Though I couldn't take notes while reviewing the question,  I memorized the call of the question, correct answer, and applicable section in the MPEP.  After leaving the PTO,  I recorded everything i could remember, which provided a basis for studying.   A missed a lot of 103 questions on my first attempt.

PREPARATION FOR SECOND TEST

I did the old exams, starting at October 2001,  many times.  I created outlines that contain: the questions I got wrong ,  and the question I had no idea why I got right.  Then I studied that outline and re-took the same exam again (to cement what I just learned).   I did this a minimum of three times for each session.   This process increased my scores tremendously.  

One week prior to the exam,  I reviewed this entire board.  I made  certian I could find the answer to anything posted in this forum.   Two days before the exam I took the April 2003 exam under time and reviewed the answers.  I score a 95%.
One day before the exam I took the October 2003 exam and scored 94%.  I also reviewed my outlines one last time.


EXAM DAY  
My testing center (Raleigh, NC)was good but my computer ABSOLUTLEY SUCKED!.  It was very slow.  Luckily,  I recognized quite a few repeats  or very similiar concepts from the old exams.  

TIP#1 -  as previously posted before,  create an answer sheet before starting a session.

TIP#2 - after creating the answer sheet ,  subdivide another page on the supplied scrap paper into a grid. Create  labels for the major tested areas ( 103a,  102b, Reexam, appeal, reissue,  112, etc).
When taking the exam and marking  a question for review.  Note on the answer sheet the question number under the applicable grid (103a, etc).  When reviewing the questions you can answer all that pertain to a particular area at once .  This will save a lot of time and significantly reduce the amount of searches required.

EXAM CONTENT
As been said many times on this board,  do the old exams from 2001 until you understand each and every question and answers choice.  This covers enough material to pass in my opinion.
Do the exams as many times as necessary. It is time well spent.  

I noticed about 20-30 repeats,  many if not all have been noted  on this board. (LANCER,  reissue with ABCDE,  etc).  There were a few unavailable inventors type questions.  Obviousness and Appeal were heavily tested.

I can't say this enough,  don't read but STUDY the postings on this board and do the old exams and you will pass.  

This is a very tough exam, but with effort it is passable.

Best of luck and I hope my posting is helpful.





 
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bc on 02-26-06 at 10:47 pm
Hi,

This question has probably been asked before.  Sorry to repeat it.  But since this thread has been running for 2 yrs, I'd like to get up-to-date advice on test taking strategy.  Some questions are only a sentence or two and can be read very quickly.  Others are several paragraphs long and may take a minute or so just to read through.  Is it good strategy to go through the exam first and hit the short questions and then go back to the longer ones?  Or does that chew up more time?  And thanks to all those who have taken the exam and then returned to the board to help out.  Good to know there's still decent people out there.  Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bc on 02-26-06 at 10:52 pm
Each session is 3 hrs long, which is a long time.  Are there breaks?  For example, if you need to go to the bathroom.  Can you bring water with you?  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 02-26-06 at 11:04 pm
Sure, you can take breaks during the session (if time permits because the clock won't stop).


Quote
Each session is 3 hrs long, which is a long time.  Are there breaks?  For example, if you need to go to the bathroom.  Can you bring water with you?  

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patento on 02-26-06 at 11:12 pm
3 hrs is sufficient if you are well prepared. you should be able to finish 15-30 minute early. This would enble you to review some of the question.

I answered the question as they came up on the screen.  I am sure you know it, there is a functionality to "mark" the qeustion for later review. I used this functionality when there was a doubt and a simple search in MPEP didn't come up with a satisfactory answer. After I was done (20 minute before 3 hrs), I reviewed these marked questions again, spent little more time searching MPEP....


Quote
Hi,

This question has probably been asked before.  Sorry to repeat it.  But since this thread has been running for 2 yrs, I'd like to get up-to-date advice on test taking strategy.  Some questions are only a sentence or two and can be read very quickly.  Others are several paragraphs long and may take a minute or so just to read through.  Is it good strategy to go through the exam first and hit the short questions and then go back to the longer ones?  Or does that chew up more time?  And thanks to all those who have taken the exam and then returned to the board to help out.  Good to know there's still decent people out there.  Thanks.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: saffin on 02-27-06 at 09:56 am
Quote
Each session is 3 hrs long, which is a long time.  Are there breaks?  For example, if you need to go to the bathroom.  Can you bring water with you?  


Make absolutely sure you have time to take a break during the 3-hour session.  When I took the test in Brooklyn, I also had to sign in and out to go to the bathroom.  That, in and of itself, took a couple minutes.  My proctors were certainly in less of a hurry than I was to check my ID and open up the sign-in/out book.  Your other option is don't drink coffee before the test.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bc on 02-27-06 at 10:30 am
Hi.  This is addressed to the older gang.  This test requires a lot of brute force memorization.  It's not like a science or engineering test in which you learn basic principles and then apply them to a problem.  I'm now 53.  When I was younger, I could memorize long lists and spit them back out.  Now it's a lot harder.  I know memorization becomes harder as you get to the 50+ range.  If there are others in this age bracket out there, I'd like to hear how you're doing in your studies.  Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patent.b on 02-27-06 at 12:33 pm
While I don't meet the age parameters of your questions, everything else describes issues I dealt with while preparing for the exam.

First: I don't think "Brute force memorization" is what one really needs to pass the exam.  Understanding the relationships between sections of the MPEP, reading the MPEP, and doing MANY practice exams did provide the type of "principle" learning that I needed to pass the exam--and after so many practice exams, I had essentially memorized the questions.    I only allowed myself to take 2 1/2 hours on each practice exam for the last couple of weeks of prep, which helped me have enough time for searching with the slower computer on the exam itself.  My advice is shell out the money for a good prep course with a CD of previous questions & follow the study instructions with possibly an extra week or so for additional repetitions of practice exams.  Do lots of practice questions on a computer.  A slower computer with a 17 inch monitor and without split screening the MPEP and the questions.  (If your eyes are really tired, as mine were, the night before the exam use paper exam questions).

Second: Accept that you will feel like you have returned to kindergarten at the testing center.  No water, no lip-balm, nothing in your pockets.  Dress in layers so that you can adjust your own temperature.  Do NOT plan on taking a bathroom break--you may have time, but you may not--too much depends on the luck of the draw regarding your question set.

Third: Things I did to prepare--No food/beverage while studying.  Put myself on the same break schedule as the exam during prep so that I would get used to not just taking a break when I felt like it.  Also, studying in 3 hour chunks with a short break in between as often as possible.  I stopped drinking coffee a week or so before the exam and switched to "Red Bull."  I don't know why, but my digestive system deals much better with it than coffee when I'm stressed.  Also switched to protein bars with water/red bull for lunch so that I could eat that in my car and rest/review between am and pm sessions.  Took 1/2 "No-Doz" caffeine tablet 1/2 hour before commencing study (and on exam day) and another 1/2 at lunch.  

I hope all this is helpful.  Good luck!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bc on 02-28-06 at 07:47 am
Test timing.  Sorry to be so thick headed here.  Going over the previous posts, I'm confused about the test mechanics.  I know there's a 15 min tutorial to get used to the computer, a 3hr session in the morn, a lunch break (1 hr?), and a 3hr session in the aft.  But I read posts such as:  (1)"Make a sheet with ABCD check off lists during the tutorial for the morn and another list during the break for the aft", (2 "I munched a Powerbar for lunch and went right back in for the second session,  (3) "Be sure not to hit the END button at the end of the morn session", (4) "The clock keeps ticking if you go to the bathroom, which may take a while if other people are lined up to sign out/sign in."  , (5) "My computer froze and I chewed up 15 min moving over to another station."      Some questions:  (1) When you say make a list during the break...does that mean when you come back from lunch, you don't have to start the test right away.  You can take 10 min or whatever to compose yourself and make a list before you start again.  (2) I gather that the lunch break is 1 hr maximum, but it can be as short as you please.  Is that correct? (3) Don't understand the warning about not hitting the END button.  Does that mean it ends the whole test and locks you out of the aft session?  (4) If there's equipment malfunction after you start the test and you move to another station, does the clock keep ticking away?  That is, if the move takes 15 min, do you now have only 2hr:45 min for the test?  (5)  Anybody have a computer crash well into the test; e.g., after 1 hr?  What happens then?  Some people say they finish early, so 15 min or so loss is not a big deal; others have been presed for time and it is a big deal for them.  Sorry about the paranoia, but I've been a frequent victim of Murphy's Law...getting pencils with no points, unreadable exam booklets where the ink ran out during printing, and junk like that.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patent.b on 03-01-06 at 09:02 am
"...confused about the test mechanics.  I know there's a 15 min tutorial to get used to the computer, a 3hr session in the morn, a lunch break (1 hr?), and a 3hr session in the aft.  But I read posts such as:  (1)"Make a sheet with ABCD check off lists during the tutorial for the morn and another list during the break for the aft""

bc,
I understand your concerns--they are many of the same ones I had, so let me try to answer. . . 15 min tutorial-I have heard that some people did not get this time, I did although it was basically the same "practice" you can get online at the prometric site.  However, always follow the instructions provided on the screen-- they are clear and there to keep you out of trouble.  DO use the time to make the 1-50 A,B,C,D sheet--very helpful as you are working through the questions.  The variation that I used was to draw lines making columns for "Notes", "A", "B", "C", "D"  that I then made note of the topic for questions I wasn't sure about and checks in the columns of answers I was sure were wrong & occasionally notes about the remainin possible answers.  Do the same during the lunch break to use for the afternoon session.

Continued on next post . . .
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patent.b on 03-01-06 at 09:29 am
". . .(2 "I munched a Powerbar for lunch and went right back in for the second session,  (3) "Be sure not to hit the END button at the end of the morn session", (4) "The clock keeps ticking if you go to the bathroom, which may take a while if other people are lined up to sign out/sign in."  , (5) "My computer froze and I chewed up 15 min moving over to another station." Some questions:  (1) When you say make a list during the break...does that mean when you come back from lunch, you don't have to start the test right away.  You can take 10 min or whatever to compose yourself and make a list before you start again.  (2) I gather that the lunch break is 1 hr maximum, but it can be as short as you please.  Is that correct? (3) Don't understand the warning about not hitting the END button.  Does that mean it ends the whole test and locks you out of the aft session?  (4) If there's equipment malfunction after you start the test and you move to another station, does the clock keep ticking away?  That is, if the move takes 15 min, do you now have only 2hr:45 min for the test?  (5)  Anybody have a computer crash well into the test; e.g., after 1 hr?  What happens then?"

bc,  
. . . As I remember the clock/timing . . . You sit down at the assigned station & the proctor begins the program for you.  Once it begins "the clock is running."  First there is the 15-min tutorial time--(use some of this to make the checklist) you only have 15 min, but if you don't want to wait to start the actual exam you can truncate that time & begin the exam.  Once you start the exam, you have 3 hours for the morning session . . . the clock keeps running no matter what . . . bathroom breaks, computer crashes (which I've not heard of happening very often--if you do experience one, remain calm, get the proctor to move you ASAP, & follow the advice on this board about ways to save time while taking the exam).  If you have finished the morning questions and there is time left, I would use the time to look up any you weren't 100% certain of, but if you want, you can stop the morning session timer & the lunch break timer will start--it starts automatically when you hit the finish button for the morning session.  (It will hide your exam and show the break timer on the screen.)  The tutorial clearly explains the END button--it means END of the Exam. DO NOT hit it unless you are quitting the exam and DO NOT want to enter anymore answers.  

OK, once the clock is running on lunch . . . you have 1 hour until the afternoon session timer starts.  During that time you need to sign out, eat, review, relax, bathroom break  . . . get your watch from your coat pocket or wherever ASAP after signing out for lunch & be sure to be back in time to empty pockets again, sign in, be back in your seat, & make your afternoon checklist before the lunch timer expires.  At the end of the break timer, the afternoon session (3 hour) timer starts automatically.  However, same as with all the timers, if you want to, you can stop the current timer early, which will start the next timer.

Continued on next post . . .
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patent.b on 03-01-06 at 09:35 am
". . . Some people say they finish early, so 15 min or so loss is not a big deal; others have been presed for time and it is a big deal for them.  Sorry about the paranoia, but I've been a frequent victim of Murphy's Law...getting pencils with no points, unreadable exam booklets where the ink ran out during printing, and junk like that. "

bc,
. . . As for whether you'll be crunched for time . . . there is no way to know for certain.  The best you can do is expect that you will be & prepare for that anxiety.  Too much depends on the set of question that one randomly receives & no two appear to be exactly the same.  In my case, the morning was more difficult than the afternoon with fewer repeats & I only had about 5 minutes before the morning timer expired to check answers I wasn't sure about.  (Needless to say, I didn't have time to check more than a couple.)  I got back in my seat from lunch in time to do my checklist, took a couple of deep breaths, & started the afternoon session a couple of minutes early.  I finished the afternoon with about 20 minutes left, reviewed the questions I was unsure of & looked them all up, changed one answer, had about 3 minutes left, took a deep breath & hit END.  Some people have had afternoons that were more difficult than their morning set--you just don't know what you'll get.

Do as many practice exams as you can.  By the time you are taking the exam, if you are getting over 90% on the practice exams & YOU don't freeze up, you should be ok because you'll be "in the zone" & will be able to take any curve ball in stride.
Good luck!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bc on 03-01-06 at 07:13 pm
Hi patent.b.  Thanks very much for your support.  Really appreciate it  Bit rusty.  Haven't taken a formal test like this since my GRE in 1974.   Somehow, quantum physics seemed easier.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patent.b on 03-01-06 at 07:37 pm
You're welcome bc,

Remember there were keys to learning quantum physics and there are for preparing for the patent bar, too.  Primarily, use a good commercial prep course with computer delivered practice exams & practice those computer exams until you have them down cold.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: TataBox on 03-04-06 at 08:39 am
I just would like to chime in here.   I dont think that many need a thousand dollar prep course to pass this test.   This is what I think you need to do.

1.Review the MPEP in its entirety, couple or 1 section at a time, jot down a note or two about each heading.  Its boring, but do it.
2.Download all the tests given by the USPTO (I have them all if you need them)
3.Practice a couple tests just using the MPEP, not timed.   You will memorize or know where the HOT sections are in the MPEP
4.Do timed exams there on out.   Repeat exams if you have to, but understand why you got certain ones wrong, dont just memorize the answer.

* you have to know the HOT sections cold and know where to look for the obscure ones.  

*start two - three months before test date.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bc on 03-06-06 at 07:21 am
Hi Again.  Questions on the electronic version of the MPEP.  I've gone through the previous posts.  But since things change, I'd like to get confirmation from people who have taken the exam recently.  Could someone please confirm the following.  (1) Acrobat Reader V5 is used.  (2) The electronic version contains all the Appendices, most notably 35 USC and 37 CFR.  (3) Although versions with everything on a single .pdf file are available, the test version has multiple .pdf files, notably one .pdf file per chapter.  The Upstart Raising webpage explicitly has this caution...want to check whether this is still up-to-date.

If all this is true, I then have questions on how useful it is.  (1)  I've tried the Find (search) function.  It looks like you need to have the exact wording.  For example, if I want to find the list of rejections under 35 U.S.C. 102, I at least know it's in Chapt 700 and I can run down the section headings and find it.  But if I use the search function, here's what I get:  (1) I need to put the periods in; "35 USC 102"  yields nothing, "35 U.S.C. 102" is OK.  (2)  I need to put the exact phrase in; "rejections 35 U.S.C. 102" yields nothing; "rejections under 35 U.S.C. 102" does.  If I have this much a problem with a section that I know, then how useful is it to search for an unfamiliar section?  I wouldn't know the exact phrasing at all.  Is there some way around this?

I'm using the Innovita simulator (it seems to be pretty much the same as the Upstart Raising simulator; except it is self-contained on a single CD).  On each question, there is a button on the bottom of the page labelled "MPEP".  When I click it, I get a list of the chapters and appendicies.  There is both a .pdf and a html file for each.  I open the .pdf file of course.  When I do, the file for the chapter launches in a separate window.  Now the problem.  If I want to keep that chapter open, I need to minimize the Adobe window to return to the exam (or otherwise close the window and reopen that chapter everytime I need it...but that takes a lot of time).  But that means if you need, for example, 10 chapters open, you'll need 10 windows open.  Does the current test version even support multiple windows? It's diffficult to keep track of all these windows.  I'm also concerned that everything will freeze if I don't have enough memory in the PC to support so many windows.  I'd greatly appreciate any help here.  Longacre's advice is that the electronic version is a total pain  and to not count on it... but to memorize his tables...OK if the list has 4 or 5 items; not so great if you have a list of 10 - 20 items (unless you have a photographic).  Others in this forum don't seem to have had any major problems.

Once again, I appreciate all the great help on this forum.  bc
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bc on 03-06-06 at 07:37 am
By the way, in the last post I meant to say "photographic memory".  I didn't want anyone to think I meant smuggling in a photograph.  :) :)
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 03-06-06 at 07:53 am
I don't think anyone has said that Acrobat was used.  What has been said is that more recent versions of Acrobat have search capabilities that will not be available using whatever application is provided in the exam.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: JM_Nano on 03-06-06 at 12:36 pm
 Thanks a lot for all the advice posted here.

Without attending any of the expensive training courses, I need to get a simulator to practise the old exams (without getting online).  My concern is possible screw-up if I am not familiar with the computerized format at all (even though I use Acrobat 5.0 for chapter-by-chapter searching now).  Please recommend. Thanks.

JM Nano
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: TC on 03-06-06 at 02:09 pm
Hi Ina,

I am planning on taking the Patent Bar exam in order to become a patent agent.  I am looking into prep courses now and I saw your posting about a discount from PLI.  I was wondering if you could maybe give me more information on the discount.

Thanks in advance,
TC
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Adam on 03-06-06 at 03:43 pm
A few pages back, I noticed someone mention that USPTO may intend to switch to MPEP edition 8 revision 3 in the summer of 2006.  I have recently started the preparations for a test date that I hope to lay in June or July.  I am concerned that USPTO will switch the MPEP revision used on the exam before I am ready to take it.  How much of an advance notice does USPTO give before they switch over to a new revision?  Hopefully it is not instantaneous(!)?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bc on 03-06-06 at 06:52 pm
Hi Adam.  Here's an excerpt from e-mail sent out from one of the prep companies:

Our materials reflect what is currently tested
(Rev 2).  Once the OED (the office in charge
of the patent bar exam within the Patent Office)
finally decides to add in the new Rev 3 changes
to the exam, they have stated they will provide
us with 90-day window before the changes take
effect.  There still is no notice.  Therefore, you
can still take the exam with Revision 2 of the
MPEP until at least May 23rd, possibly much
longer.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 03-06-06 at 07:44 pm
I've had a copy of Rev 4 on my desk since the end of January.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Adam on 03-06-06 at 10:01 pm
Thanks bc.  Hopefully they'll post the 90-day warning on their website when they do decide to switch over.  I don't really understand why they'd switch from rev 2 to rev 3 instead of rev 4, but then, it's not for me to ask. :>
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bc on 03-06-06 at 11:13 pm
I'll put on my systems engineering hat.  My guess is that the Patent Office is following sound business practice in delivering a new product; in this instance, a new exam.  At some point you need to freeze requirements (in this instance, the revision) to allow adequate time for development.  But also, there's something weird going on.  The interval between r1 and r2 and between r2 and r3 were each ~1 yr.  But r4 came only a couple of months after r3.  Let's just hope you and I and others in the same boat pass before the r3 test comes out.   :)
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 03-07-06 at 08:30 am
I think the problem is that changing the version of the MPEP is pain because the effect of new law and rules on all of the existing questions in the test bank must be considered.

Now that there are no available appeals, there is a premium on making sure that each question accurately tests the law when the question is used.   The only available process for debugging questions is to use them as the 10 or so questions that do not count.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: BruinEd03 on 03-07-06 at 09:12 pm
I just took + passed the patent bar today.  Only took 20 mins of lunch break + finished 2nd exam 20 mins early.  Again like everyone said, take a review course + study the old exam!

Anyways I'm selling my PLI materials (almost new) here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=ADME:L:LCA:US:31&item=7013803142 (Item #7013803142)

Good luck!!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: cgy1 on 03-08-06 at 12:09 am
I took and (preliminarily) passed the exam yesterday. It was much more straightforward than I expected. There are very few tricky questions. If you know your stuff, mastered old exams, and focused on the hints and advice in this thread, you should be more than fine. I took the Bar/Bri course and thought it was excellent and prepared me very well.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bc on 03-08-06 at 08:20 am
Hi.  Is the preliminary result consistently on target?  That is, have people gotten a preliminary pass but an official fail?  Devastating!!!  :-[ :-[  Have people gotten a preliminary fail but an official pass?   Ecstatic.!!! :D :D  Since this is a computerized exam, the only case I see this happening is if the Patent Office changes its mind on some answerss in the limited time window between the exam and the official notice.  I would think this is unlikely, but strange things do happen.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: prosdog on 03-08-06 at 10:18 am
This is my second attempt at the exam.  I took one prep course my first time, didn't get much out of it and didn't pass.  I switched to the PES course this time, its really helping.

I'm finishing up the PES course probably in 2 weeks, taking the exam on April 14.  That gives me around 3 weeks to do old exams again.  

Any suggestions on what are the best exams to do?  Is there some point in the past prior to which the questions are outdated?  If I have limited time, which exams are most like the computer exam?

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patent.b on 03-08-06 at 04:07 pm
Due to limited time, you'll probably want to stick with questions from 2002 & 2003, IMO.  

Be sure whatever questions & answers you use take into account the changes in the law since the questions were initially a part of an exam.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Taxman on 03-10-06 at 11:56 am
Question about taking the computerized exam. with-respect-to the mroning and afternoon section. I know you are not allowed to bring anything into the exam with you. But note taking on blank paper IS allowed right?


If so. Notes taken in the morning. Can they be used in the afternoon?.

ie if I scribble down in the morning section some dates, highlights, things that I want to remember...will I have access to those notes in the afternoon?

thanks

taxman
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: exq0867 on 03-10-06 at 03:23 pm
 ;D

It is gonna depend on where you take it.  

The Sylvan learning center I went to gave me a 4 page booklet which I could take notes on and let me use the same booklet all day long.  I've heard that other places will confiscate the morning stuff and give you fresh sheets for the afternoon.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: exq0867 on 03-10-06 at 03:28 pm
 8)

By the way, I passed on my first try today!  

I'd recommend anyone taking the exam to look thru this board for possible questions.  However, don't count on memorization to get you thru.  I only had about 10 to 15 repeat questions on my exam.  I'd suggest, regardless of what prep course you got (I recommend PLI hands down), do ALL the questions you can on a computer and get used to doing that way.  SInce I was so used to getting around the MPEP electronically, I took almost no notes during my exam.

Good luck to all!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: OJ on 03-10-06 at 07:09 pm
First off, a big thanks to all who have share their experiences on this board.

I just wanted to draw everbody's attention to this free website that posts ALL the old PTO exams (with answers) from 1997 onwards.  

http://www.legaled.com/patentbarexam.htm

While I wouldn't recommend going back further than 2001 (since major rule changes went into effect around this time), this is a good, economical option for those seeking to practice on more exams than the PTO website provides.  

Good luck to all!
8)
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: paul shaw on 03-13-06 at 01:04 pm
I used http://www.easybarpass.com's questions and test prep to prepare for the exam. I passed. They have real repeat PTO questions, and old exam questions (in PDF) are free.

ps
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: OJ on 03-13-06 at 06:15 pm
Hi everyone.

I took the exam today in Brookline,  Ma and passed(!) ;D.

Just wanted to offer some of my thoughts to those still studying:

-The exam was tough, but by no means a killer.  To pass this exam, you must be able to quickly answer questions from previous exams, so you will be able to look up answers to those questions you aren't able to immediately answer (and there are many).
-Know the death/change of inventorship down well.  Many of these popped up on my exam, and can be easily answered if one is prepared.
-I had one strange question about the requirements for nucleotide sequencing from Ch.2400 - basically what must be filed for nucleotide sequences (CD, paper copy).
-One tough question about the effect of a District Court judgment - be aware where to look up these effects for the exam (2100).
-Overall: go through the exam once, marking any question you believe will take you more than a quick checkup, and answering all re-peats and easily answerable questions.  With the  time remaining (hopefully last 45 min or so), spend time looking up answers for those complicated questions.
-I used Jim Longacre's patent review.  It was a good course, especially considering the cost ($1000), and prepares a student adequately to pass the exam. I studied about 2-3 hrs a day for almost 2 months, with the last 2 weeks reviewing old exams.  
-BOTTOM LINE: you will NOT be able to memorize every quirky piece of trivia housed in the MPEP; what you CAN do is be able to answer the easy ones and repeats quickly, and know WHERE in the MPEP to find the answers to those especially tricky questions. Use the subject index if necessary, and the "find" feature to find particular CFR sections which you can't easily locate.  

Good luck!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: OJ on 03-13-06 at 06:26 pm
I have a complete Jim Longacre's home-study kit for sale (I passed using this review kit in less than 2 months, studying only 2-3 hrs a day).

The kit includes:

The study guide,  MPEP (8th ed, ver 2), 26 CD-ROMS with lectures, access to the on-line site with access to many old exam questions, and a PDF-version of the MPEP.   The study guide (and some of the MPEP) is admittedly heavily marked up, but still readable.  I'll sell the normally $1000 kit for $200.00, or best offer.  If interested, e-mail at omarjabri@gmail.com.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bc on 03-16-06 at 03:04 pm
Hi.  Going over old exams.  One question dealt with amendments to reissues.  To me it's clear what the correct answer is.  But the answer given is "All answers accepted."  That obviously can't be true, because (E) is "None of the Above."   What does "All answers accepted" mean?  Some type of flaw with the original grading?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patent.b on 03-16-06 at 05:24 pm
From the Annual Performance and Accountability Report of the USPTO:
"In FY 2005, OED processed 3,025 applications concerning the registration examination. OED admitted 2,669 applicants who took the computerized registration examination and 32 applicants who took the examination in a paper format. OED registered 941 individuals as agents and 501 individuals as attorneys. OED issued 146 limited recognition numbers to non-citizens of the United States."

1588/2701 = 58.8% Pass rate for 2005.

Am I missing something here?  My understanding was that pass percentages weren't available--admittedly, I didn't read any of the earlier Annual Reports.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: rw on 03-21-06 at 04:10 pm
Hi Everybody!

So, I am just starting to study for the patent exam and needed some advice...Should I study rev. 2 or rev. 3 of the MPEP?...I know that the exam is going to reflect rev. 3 soon...I'm planning on taking the exam sometime in June...What do you guys think?  Rev. 2 or 3? ???

Thanks in advance! ::)
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bc on 03-21-06 at 07:22 pm
Hi,

See Reply #929 above on this question.  The PTO gives 90 days advance notice when they plan to cut over to Rev 3.    The OED webpage still has Rev 2 posted.   For now you're OK with Rev 2 til mid June at least.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Beth on 03-22-06 at 08:04 pm
I'm thinking to buy a couese either from PLI, Longacre, Barbri, or PRG.  I'm wondering what the difference are.
Which do you recommend and why?

I'm also interested in buying a used material. I heard that CD-ROM is protected and can't be installed to another computer.  Is it true and why are many people selling used one?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: dexa0201 on 03-26-06 at 07:31 pm
 ;D ;D ;D ;D

Received my official approval letter from PTO on Friday. Thanks for the wonderful info posted on this forum. Good luck for everyone!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: jd78605w on 03-30-06 at 09:00 am
Greetings fellow users. I don't want to bore you by saying how great this forum has been because so many others have expressed their appreciation to this regard already!  ;D

Question regarding use of Apple Mac OSX. I don't think this has been discussed yet. Do apologize if that is indeed the case. (would appreciate a link to that if this is the case!)

I am planning to take the test in the summer and I use a Mac OSX Tiger computer. Do any of you have used it in the past while prepping for the test? I would like to hear about your experiences with the mac during test preparation, simlulated full-length practice exams, and specially with using Adobe Reader version 5.0. Also, where did you find Adobe 5.0 for Mac? I did a quick search but no luck as yet. Also, did you have any compatibility issues with any of the review course softwares or other test prep material out there?

Would really appreciate you elaborating on this.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Enalbenroh on 03-30-06 at 11:13 am
Thanks to all who have contributed!

I have been lurking several months now and am scheduled to take the test on April 17.  I'm in the home stretch.

If anyone has recently taken the test, would you care to elaborate on whether the trends and specific questions discussed earlier in this thread are still showing up?  EG PCT, appeal, reissue, reexam...I know these will be heavily tested.  But did you notice other heavy areas?  Any specific questions to look out for?

Any insight would be appreciated!  I'm off to redo old tests.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: thisguydave on 03-31-06 at 06:26 pm
hi all,

Great forum, studying hard and was wondering has anyone catalogued the questions from the 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2003 exams by MPEP subject.

I'm just starting to, but if someone else has already
done it no need to re invent the wheel as it were.

Thanks

D.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bc on 04-02-06 at 03:00 pm
The Innovita test simulator CD has copies of the old exams.  In addition, questions are broken out by MPEP chapter and subject.  HOWEVER, there are bugs.  Some chapter tests have questions which don't correspond to the proper chapter.  If you are using the disc for review, these goofs will be obvious (e.g., PCT questions in the design patent chapter).  But if you are going chapter by chapter for the first go around, you will get confused by these.  Also, I've been running into typos (some with serious impact) in some questions.  


http://www.innovita.us/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/28?osCsid=da400898c75b19f24a57e09f8ca685b0
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Jcam on 04-04-06 at 07:03 pm
Anyone selling their PLI materials????


Or any other preparation materials other than Bar-Bri?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Passed on 2nd Try! on 04-05-06 at 02:28 pm
 ;D

Took my 2nd exam yesterday and PASSED!!

Thanks to the questions posted on this forum.
These questions helped me very much.

My AM questions were very time consuming ones compared to PM questions.

1. Lancer tooth brush

2. Lip Gross Question

3. Lots of repeats from 2002 and 2003
2002 APRIL PM: 24,
2002 OCT AM: 1, 2, 6, 34, 46, 49
2003 OCT AM: 5, 6, 8, 12, 14, 20, 22, 23, 24, 26, 29, 34, 36, 38, 44, 46,
2003 OCT PM: 1, 2, 4, 8, 10, 15, 20, 21, 22, 25, 27, 28, 29, 31, 34, 37, 39, 40,  

4. No interference

5. Third party submission CFR 1.99

6. Appeal questions
1213.02 Read this section, answeres can be found word to word in this section

7. 724 Q on Trade secret, Proprietary, protective order materials, if you read first couple sections, you can find answer

8. Assignment: "which one of the following in accordance with MPEP, except" type of question

9. Reissue - manner of filing amendment if you had a Certif Correct in the parent, and want to file preliminary amendment, what do you do type of question

10. No patent term extension

11. No jurisdiction - invalidity/validity question

12. asked about who to contact when you are filing petition under CRF 1. 183???

13. correspondence received by FAX, Express Mail, Cert of Mailing: know which documents can be filed with what mailing method

14. Restriction Requirement - Linking claim questions
Read that section, answers were eash look up

15. PCT - 1803 (if the US is the only contracting state in an IA, IA will not be published at 18 months) know this!
PCT filing requirement, National stage filing requirement (Translation and Oath can be filed later - know this too)

PCT specific question

French application filed, then PCT application designating US filed claiming French application and IA was published in French (I think).
At some point within 30 months, without entering National Stage, applicant files continuation from PCT application, is the claim for French priority proper? or is it perfected?  

Ans: claim for french priority proper, but not perfected.
since you filed continuation and USPTO only has the French application, you need to file translation to USPTO.

I chose that answer.  There were other choices.

16. 707.05(f) Declassfied printed matter - I had 2 or 3 questions

17. I had question on submitting 52 tables in CD-ROM.
52 tables were divided into two portions; 1-26 and 27-52.  Is this proper?  that sort of question.

18. If I remember more, I will come back and post.

GOOD LUCK EVERYONE!  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: byte on 04-05-06 at 07:39 pm
Great information!  Thanks for taking the time to summarize your experience.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: sk686 on 04-05-06 at 11:30 pm
Quote
Great information!  Thanks for taking the time to summarize your experience.


I second that! Very good memory as well!

Good luck with your Patent career.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: prosdog on 04-06-06 at 06:45 am
Wow, thank you!  I'm taking the exam a week from tomorrow, this will really help.

Congrats on passing the test, hope I can do the same next week.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Passed on 2nd Try! on 04-06-06 at 02:15 pm
 :D

Hi, I just remembered couple more questions.
First, my impression on the exam was "very straight forward."  Fact Patterns were straight forward and if you spend just bit more time to think about the fact pattern, you should be all right.

Here we go.

1.  Which of the following document can be used as a 102(b) prior art? type of question.
Could have been 102(a)  

2.  PCT designating USA filed in English claiming priority to JP application.
Filing date was after Nov 29, 2000. IA published in English, and entered the National Stage.  US application publication was published. Subsequently, the application was patented.  When is the 102(e) prior art date?

3. APRIL 2000 AM: 6 (similar to the product-by-process question discussed in the forum, MPEP 2113), 9, 17, 23 (on the exam, wording of question changed, answer choices changed), 32, 34, 42,       47,
APRIL 2000 PM: 41,

OCT 2000 AM: 2,

4. To ALL: I found the invalid/valid jurisdiction questions in the 2000 AM&PM problems. I’m not sure if any of them were on the Exam, but worth studying these problems?
2000 AM: 40
2000 PM: 19

5. Company A gave their agent B, the competitor’s patent application number, and asked if the agent B could get the information on the competitor’s patent application; whether it has been published and publication date. By telephoning the office, how do you get such information?  
MPEP 101: TELEPHONE AND IN-PERSON REQUEST FOR INFORMATION


** some "Repeat" questions were exactly word to word, but, some other questions were similar to the repeat questions.  

If you understand the past exam problems, then, PTO changing some of the fact pattern should not confuse you.

Thank you all!!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Passed on 2nd Try! on 04-06-06 at 02:49 pm
 :D

My studying strategy was like this.

Anyone studying for the Exam, go back this thread from the beginning and study the posted problems carefully.
That really helped me.

What I did right before taking Exam?

MON-FRI: studied the Forum questions,
studied paper exams 2002 & 2003 APRIL, OCT

Sun: 2002 OCT exam on computer
Reviewed incorrect problems

MON: 2003 APRIL & OCT exams on computer
Reviewed incorrect problems

TUE: TOOK Exam

By the way, I spent
AM: Full 3 hours because I had to look up MPEP many times to confirm my answers
PM: 2hrs

Come to think about it, my PM questions had more repeat questions than AM questions.
My brain was already too tired 5 hrs into the Exam,
so I took my chance and finished the Exam early.

Then, I saw "provisional pass" on my screen.

Went home and slept...
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Thisguydave on 04-07-06 at 11:50 pm
Does anyone have details of  the

lip gloss question?

The lip balm question?

foil wrapped airplane question?

spanish phone question?

Thanks

Dave.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: MNatty on 04-10-06 at 04:26 pm
I took and passed the exam last week Thursday on my first try.  Just wanted to thank everyone for the helpful posts on this forum!  Most of what I say will be a repeat of what the others have said, but I think it's very valuable advice.  I am certain that I passed because of it.  

By the way, I had the pleasure of re-scheduling my exam because of "technical difficulties" at the test center (Edina, Minnesota).  I received an automated voice mail 6 days before I was scheduled to take it and had to call to re-schedule.  Thankfully it was only delayed by 3 days, and that was the worst of the patent bar disasters for me.

1)  Writing down 1-50/ABCDE on the scratch paper really helped.  Come back a little early from lunch to write down the afternoon session's 1-50 before you get started (your computer will just be sitting there waiting for you and you don't have to take the full hour lunch).

2)  Know the 2001-2003 exams cold.  I had about 20 repeats out of the total 100 questions.  They were VERBATIM, no word changes, nothing sneaky there.  It was really nice to get a freebie every few questions.  I actually had the claim counting one (147) AND the Lancer toothbrush one!

3)  My morning section was much harder than the afternoon.  Most of the repeats were in the afternoon.

4)  I used the index more than I thought I would for the questions where I needed to search the MPEP.  Sometimes it would send me to exactly the right spot.  Other times it didn't help me at all.  But if I wasn't sure where to look for something, before searching multiple chapters for something, I'd try the index.

5)  I went through and did the repeats and the ones I didn't need the MPEP for first, skipping the hard ones.  I had enough time after that to go back and spend the extra time on the hard ones.

6)  I did a weird combination of the PLI and PRG courses (borrowed the PLI audio from a friend and then got a job where the firm had the PRG software questions and binders).  I don't know which one was "better" - all I know is, I studied for 3 months while working half time.  I didn't have much experience in patent prosecution so I was kind of learning from scratch.  If you're lucky enough to be able to attend a live course, I'm sure that will save you some time (it's tough to get through all that audio or video on your own motivation and time!).

7)  This one is a NO BRAINER, but be sure to read the questions and answers carefully.  I screwed up on my first run through the old exams quite a bit because I missed one word here or there.  There's also a fair number of "both A and B are correct" answers so don't skip any answers!

Good luck to everyone, and thanks again for the helpful posts!    
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: John McWanld on 04-14-06 at 10:44 am
Besides MPEP, do we have access to 35USC and 37CFR in the test center?  Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: jd78605w on 04-14-06 at 11:20 am
Yes. Appendix L - Patent Laws (35USC) and Appendix R - Patent Rules (37CFR) will be accessible.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: prosdog on 04-14-06 at 08:42 pm
Well, I took the exam today for the second time, and didn't pass.  :'(

I was scoring 75 to 85 percent on the 2001-2003 exams.  I felt I knew the material well.  I was confident going in.

The test had very few repeat questions.  Many questions I had never seen before, subjects that both courses I took never even touched on.  I did get the Lancer question and the lip gloss question.  PCT questions that had 6 different dates involved.

I'm not sure what more I could have done.  I guess I'm going to forget about it for the weekend and figure out what I'm going to do next week.  I'll definitely take it again, no way is this test going to defeat me, but I guess I need to rethink my approach to studying.

I guess another few months of not seeing my wife and kids as I barricade myself in my study.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: thisguydave on 04-15-06 at 01:08 pm
Hi prosdog,

Can you remember and details of the lip gloss question?

thanks

Dave.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: L on 04-15-06 at 04:23 pm
So if Prometric says you have preliminarily passed, it means you passed right?  Has there been anyone who had a prelim pass but did not pass in fact?

Do you ever get your raw score?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: jd78605w on 04-15-06 at 06:51 pm
If the preliminary results say you passed, for the most part, it would be safe to assume that you passed.

You get your score if you do not pass. If you pass, you get a message stating just that.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: L on 04-15-06 at 10:57 pm
Selling PLI home study course.
Bought 2/06 from PLI website.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Complete-PLI-Home-Study-Course_W0QQitemZ7023740800QQcategoryZ2228QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: prosdog on 04-15-06 at 11:37 pm
Lip Gloss question, don't remember the details, but it mentions that the inventor used it first for experimentation, then as a gag item before filing.  Think the answer was that using it as a gag item over a year before filing made it a "public use" 102(b) statutory bar.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wolfcastle on 04-18-06 at 10:27 am
From what I've read so far, the gist of the lip balm question is that experiemental use of lip blam is not a 102 stat. bar, however, giving it away to your friends as a gag gift is.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: patentneo on 04-19-06 at 04:55 pm
 ;)

Took the exam on April 10th in Brooklyn and passed. Excellent test taking site, highly recommend it.
This forum had been excellent study guide and I recommend anyone to go back to page 1 and to study it very carefully.

THe first part was hard. Lot's of look up questions and few repeats. The look up questions were mainly from chapter 300, 400, 600 and 700. Know the content of these chapters cold. Know how to locate the rules quickly if you need them. I remember questions about whether a Canadian patent agent can prosecute in the US and who can sign 1.131 declaration and terminal disclaimers. For searching, think about hitting the right search term. That is the key to finding answers sometimes. Few October 2003 repeats, one computer !GB, RAM, and RCE/CPA repeats from April and Oct 2003, know them cold.

The second part had more repeats ---appeal repeats from 2003, claim for walking across the street, compound Y for cancer curing, Lancer toothbrush and ABCD reissue. Look ups from chapter 1400, 1200 and 2200, know these chapters cold. About 4 PCT questions which could be looked up as well but know PCT procedure well. No dead inventors, luckily. Old classic questions like clock/fan with different dimensions, airplane covered in aluminum foil, CIP of design for a Spanish phone.
Lot's of 103 questions from 2100, 102(a) and declassified material ( see chapter 700), few Mfees questions, Velco trademark question. That is all, I think that I can remember.

I studied a lot from the MPEP and CFR rule section. Good luck to all and keep the forum going, very helpful.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: elberama on 04-20-06 at 10:36 am
I took the exam on April 3rd and passed on my first try.  

I used the PLI course, and studied for 5 weeks without working.  The PLI course is thorough, and quite time consuming.  I am glad I took the video course because I couldn't imagine sitting still and absorbing effectively all that information if I had to watch John White's talking head for 6 hours in a day.  

It took me close to three weeks to complete the supposedly 5-day course because I read, studied, and tried to understand each chapter's study materials before I turned the video on.  If I realized that a phrase went through one ear and out the other, I would always rewind.  There's no point spacing out on a homestudy lecture!

I spent about 6-8 hours of "billable" studying, interspersed with breaks and lunch.  It actually translated to about 10 hours of actual work time each day, because the 3 hours or so of breaks are almost mandatory for your sanity (especially during the days of learning 102).

Here is my list of tips:

(1) You would be crazy to not take the PTO past exams from 2002/2003.  I had 20 questions repeated verbatim.  You need to do them in real test-taking conditions so that you can practice your timing.

(2) I wrote ABCDE on my scratch paper for each question so that I could keep track of eliminated wrong answers.

(3) I tried to make a first run-through of the questions in 1:30 hours to 2:00 hours.  I found that I needed to go back and look up about half (25) of the questions in each section.

(4) If you hit a question and you recognize within the first 5 seconds that you won't know the answer, just skip it.  Don't read further.  You'll end up reading the thing again when you look it up, so just save yourself some time.  This strategy was the ONLY way I was have enough time at the end to look up everything.

(5) A lot of the questions are phrased "The following is not in accordance with the MPEP."  These questions may alone cover 3 different topics.  You must know enough to eliminate 3 choices with certainty, and then go back to do 2 look-ups to verify which response is the correct one.

(6) If you manage to eliminate 3 choices, DON'T guess your answer!  Mark it and look them up.  Your guess will always be wrong.  It's Murphy's Law.

(7) Here's a PLI John White tip:  Read Chapter 2100 cover to cover.  I didn't have time to do that, but I found myself going back to that chapter over and over again for my answers.  Realize that Ch. 2100 has examination guidelines for separate technologies, which has been tested.

(8) You need to know how to look things up either using the index, or using the Table of Contents at the beginning of each chapter.  You should familiarize yourself with the TOC.  Just read them over and over.  The Full-Text search is an ineffective load of crock.  It's a linear-search of a PDF file, which is way too SLOW.  Know the MPEP terminology, understand how the MPEP is indexed, and look things up as if you were searching in the 3000-page paper volume.

(9) If you have time, look it up!  There's no such thing as an educated guess, in the sense that you'll invariably pick the wrong answer.  The choices are drawn from the MPEP verbatim.

(10) There are too many nuances for predictability on this test.  Just make sure you do the 2002/2003 tests so that you can answer the repeats correctly, know your claims drafting and 102(a)-(g), and don't be afraid to MOVE ON to the next question and LOOK UP the answers later.  You need at least an hour and fifteen minutes or more to look up stuff that wasn't covered in the PLI course.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: L on 04-20-06 at 12:38 pm
I also took the PLI course and passed.

In hindsight, all the video learning is really just to prepare you to make sense of the practice exams.  Ultimiately, you learn the exams, not the materials.  You also learned how to do lookups quickly.

On my first practice exam I got a 55, after having gone thru the videos.   But after doing a few exams I got better at looking stuff up and began to memorize the old questions.  Within 2 weeks I passed.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: someone_to_love on 04-20-06 at 08:41 pm
someone please tell me about the following questions:

spanish phone,
velco trademark
lancer tooth brush(i think this one is a prior exam)
lip gloss
etc...

seems like these quetions are very important

are these new questions or prior exams  ???

thanks in advance
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wolfcastle on 04-21-06 at 11:54 am
I was wondering if anyone could tell me if you can copy and paste phrases from the test questions into the search function of the MPEP that is available in the prometric test.

I've searched this site, but haven't been able to find relevant info. Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wolfcastle on 04-21-06 at 12:02 pm
Someone-to-love:

velco trademark question deals with the rules about including trademarked names into an application. I believe the answer is that in the spec. or claims, trademarks are generally okay as long as a typical person would recognize what they stand for.

lancer tooth brush(i think this one is a prior exam). A previous patent discloses a toothbrush with the on/off switch on one side. You file an application that discloses the on/off switch on the other side. Is your claim anticipated? I think the answer is no...of course it certainly is obvious.

lip gloss. This question has to do with experimental use and a 102(b) rejection. Know that experimental use doesn't start the 1 year for a 102(b), but using it in a non-experimental way, even in a stupid way, starts the 1 year for 102(2)


etc...
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: TataBox on 04-23-06 at 06:56 am
I can remember a few that were very specific, you search the term and come up with the answer in the MPEP.   It was almost verbatim.   If you were really lucky, the term only came up once.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: TataBox on 04-23-06 at 06:58 am
I dont think you can copy and paste from acrobat.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wolfcastle on 04-23-06 at 09:10 am
I looked up the old VELCRO question, and it turns out that trademarks in teh spec. are okay, but not in the claims.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: byte on 04-23-06 at 10:39 am
See MPEP 2173.05(u).  Trademarks are fine in claims as long as they "identify a source of goods, and not the goods themselves."  Keep in mind that if you reference a trademark without an actual product corresponding to it, even if that trademark is currently associated with only one product, over time, the product(s) a trademark represents can change.  Having such a variable in a claim would be a very bad thing!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 04-24-06 at 05:17 am
Quote
See MPEP 2173.05(u).  Trademarks are fine in claims as long as they "identify a source of goods, and not the goods themselves."  Keep in mind that if you reference a trademark without an actual product corresponding to it, even if that trademark is currently associated with only one product, over time, the product(s) a trademark represents can change.  Having such a variable in a claim would be a very bad thing!


While the MPEP does indeed say that, it is a rare case for a trademark to be considered okay in a claim.    When I examined, some applicant's found it particularly galling that I would reject a claim for indefiniteness based on the recitation of a trademark, but would then make an art rejection implying that I understood the claim despite the indefiniteness.

Title: New participant
Post by: Sunday_Manoa on 04-27-06 at 10:16 am
Can anyone tell me where I can find some of the questions referred to in this forum?  Specifically, the design for Spanish phone, lip gloss and the clock/fan with different dimensions.  Also, the "airplane covered in aluminum foil"?

Also, it being April, have they recently changed the exam?

Thanks
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wolfcastle on 04-27-06 at 01:53 pm
If they have changed the exam recently, they haven't changed it all that much. I took the PTO exam April 24th, and I was excited to see the VELCRO question, the spanish phone, the clock/fan, AND the tin foil airplane question.

It did seem like there were 5-10 questions on the minutia of appeal.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bc on 04-30-06 at 03:00 pm
Hi.  I too would appreciate a reference to the "classic" questions mentioned here.  I've skimmed through old exams back to 1997 and haven't found them.  Are these some ancient questions that are highlighted in study guides?  Are these posted online anywhere?  Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wolfcastle on 04-30-06 at 03:22 pm
Unfortunately, these classic questions aren't classic at all. They are just common questions that have been added since October of 2003.  If you want to know what these questions are, all you have to do is read all 66+ pages of this thread.

There is an Aug 24, 2005 post that is quite insightful.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bean on 05-02-06 at 06:21 am
Is anyone familiar with the testing environment of the Columbia, MD prometric testing center?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: andaluzia on 05-02-06 at 10:38 am
Hello!
I used the Kayton Patent course and I passed from the first try.
Here is my advice on how to pass the exam. I will base my discussions on kayton, because this course is great, definitely, if one has the money, one should buy it to prepare.
1. Do the questions in the Kayton course (there's 2000 of them...) review the 2002 and 2003 exams (they are all in the Kayton question databasse, interspersed).
2. Review Kayton lecture slides.
3. Review questions posted on this board.
4. Review the table of contents of each MPEP chapter.
5. If you have time, read each MPEP chapter, so you know where to find what. Really, you don't have to memorize much except the dates like preAIPA etc. Everything else, well if you kind of know in what chapter is likely to be discussed, you will be fine if you get a question about that, regardless if you memorized stuff or not.

If you have not been in patent law before, you may not understand what MPEP is talking about. You may be reading some MPEP chapter and remembering nothing, because it doesn't make much sense. Kayton is great, because his course explains you what MPEP is all about, so you can understand the MPEP. Since you only have the MPEP available to you during the exam, it's very useful to understand what each chapter and subchapter, and underchapter etc., is all about. For example, of course most appeal stuff is in the Appeal MPEP chapter, but some related stuff is in Ch 700, odd things like that.
Andrea
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: SciGuy on 05-03-06 at 08:02 pm
Passed today.  Glad it is over.  The test was quite a bit harder than any of the practice tests that are available.  I had no sense of whether I passed or failed until the end.  In each session it took me an hour and a half to get through all the questions allowing the final hour and a half available to look up marked questions in the MPEP.  I used Jim Longacre's course and didn't read the MPEP.  The latter was probably a mistake because it slowed my pace when trying to look up questions.

1. Know what happens to the power of attorney and who can sign when the applicant dies.  Know what the result is if inventor dies before filing, upon filing, or during prosecution.  Know how this changes when the applicant assigned entire interest away before dying.  Know assignee's right if the inventor's estate wants to control prosecution.
2. Know that you can't use 1.48 to fix inventorship in a patent and that you can't use Cert. of Correction if one of the inventors refuses.  Know who has to sign a reissue that adds inventors when one of the inventors to be added refuses to partake.
3. Know the 4 Graham Factual Inquires verbatium.
4. You can't use 103(c) exception if the 102(e) ref can be used under other 102s.
5. PCT: Know the minimal parts and what can be submitted later for the Request and when entering the national stage.
6. PCT: Probably 6 IA questions where you have to figure out the 102(e) date or the term start date.  No big deal if you know "the charts".
7. Lancer tooth brush was exactly the same as in the 2003 test (answer is A or D, power supply or location of switch).
8. Don't get fooled by a non-103 102(e) rejection that was commonly owned at the time of the second invention.
9. You can't antedate using 131 if the ref is a patent that claims the same invention.
10. No PTA, no lip gloss, no velcro, no foil airplane
11.  Know how to overcome all types of double patenting rejections
12. I got the 147 claims question

That is all for now.  My brain is hamburger.  I'm going to bed.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 05-04-06 at 07:25 am
Congrats SciGuy
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: saffin on 05-04-06 at 08:04 am
Interesting.  I just read this:  56.4% pass rate from 7/04 to 6/05.  

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/com/sol/og/patrgex.htm
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Thisguydave on 05-04-06 at 08:52 am
After searching the forum this is what I have for the
aluminum foil plane question.

toy plane with aluminum  foil wing:  

applicant claims a toy plane whose wings are covered in aluminum foil.  the spec describes a toy plane whose wings are covered in foil but whose body isn't.  reference discloses a plane that is covered entirely in chewing gum wrapper, which includes aluminum foil and another material.  claim is rejected, and applicant responds by arguing that covering only the wings in foil provides useful aerodynamic properties, and therefore the claimed invention is distinguishable from the reference.  how should the examiner respond?

i said the examiner should maintain the rejection b/c the claim is broad enough to include a plane that is covered entirely in aluminum foil (limitations present in the spec will not be read into the claim if not expressly recited

-A patent of a paper airplane with aluminum foil (I think) wings. The prior art is a plane covered with aluminum I think. Is it patentable?

similar to Oct 2003: PM 46 (airplane with foil on wings, prior art has airplane covered completely in chewing gum wrapper)

46. A primary examiner is examining a patent application. The application includes a specification and a single claim to the invention that reads as follows:
1. A building material to be used as an alternative to brick in the construction of a
house, said building material comprising compressed refuse, the majority of which is wood.  In the specification, the inventor explains that the wood to be used in the inventive building  material should be balsa wood. According to the specification, balsa-containing building material has the advantage of being lighter than brick. In a first Office action mailed to the registered practitioner representing the inventor the single claim was rejected as anticipated
under 35 U.S.C. § 102 over Patent A. Patent A issued more than one year before the effective filing date of the application, and teaches a building material to be used as an alternative to brick in the construction of a house comprising compressed refuse, the majority of which is pine. The practitioner replies to the first Office action by arguing that the invention is different from that of Patent A. According to the practitioner, the inventor uses balsa wood, not pine. The claim has not been amended. Which of the following describes how the examiner should proceed in accordance with the patent laws, rules and procedures as related in the MPEP?

(A) The examiner should allow the claim.

(B) The examiner should allow the claim only after including a Reasons for
Allowance pointing out that the inventor argues that her invention is directed to
using balsa wood, not pine.

(C) The examiner should issue a Final Rejection again rejecting the claim as
anticipated under 35 USC102 over Patent A.

(D) The examiner should reopen prosecution and begin anew, this time searching for a reference that shows a building material containing balsa wood.

(E) The examiner should withdraw the rejection but issue a new Office action this
time rejecting the claim under 35 USC 112, second paragraph, because the claim is broad enough to encompass using pine.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Thisguydave on 05-04-06 at 08:58 am
The computer  Patent test search application.

You cannot copy and paste with this.

It is very similar to adobe acrobat v5, but not as good.

You must search every document from the very
beginning.  It is very slow so when you search
some of the longer chapters it is very painful.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Thisguydave on 05-04-06 at 09:53 am
Any one remember details about the

Canadian patent agent living in America question?

Only reference in the MPEP I can find MPEP 402

A power of attorney or authorization given to a registered
Canadian patent agent, to be valid, must be given by the applicants, all of whom are located in Canada. See 37 CFR 10.6(c).


10.6
(c) Foreigners. Any foreigner not a resident of the United States who shall file proof to the satisfaction
of the Director that he or she is registered and in good standing before the patent office of the country in which he or she resides and practices and who is possessed of the qualifications stated in § 10.7, may be registered as a patent agent to practice before the Office for the limited purpose of presenting and prosecuting
patent applications of applicants located in such country, provided: The patent office of such country allows substantially reciprocal privileges to those admitted to practice before the United States Patent and Trademark Office. Registration as a patent agent under this paragraph shall continue only during the period that the conditions specified in this paragraph obtain.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Sunday_Manoa on 05-04-06 at 12:44 pm
I still cannot find the Spanish telephone or the clock/fan questions.  Anybody know where they are or what the gist of the questions are? Also, what is a Graham Factual inquiry?

I'm looking to take the test soon and need all the help I can get. I've been looking at this stuff so long I'm getting a little buggy  :o :o This is a gruelling test of a persons ability to retain minutia.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: SciGuy on 05-04-06 at 01:13 pm
Office policy is to follow Graham v. John Deere Co. in the consideration and determination of obviousness under 35 U.S.C. 103. As quoted above, the four factual inquires enunciated therein as a background for determining obviousness are as follows:

(A) Determining the scope and contents of the prior art;
(B) Ascertaining the differences between the prior art and the claims in issue;
(C) Resolving the level of ordinary skill in the pertinent art; and
(D) Evaluating evidence of secondary considerations.

Also know these:

When applying 35 U.S.C. 103, the following tenets of patent law must be adhered to:
(A) The claimed invention must be considered as a whole;
(B) The references must be considered as a whole and must suggest the desirability and thus the obviousness of making the combination;
(C) The references must be viewed without the benefit of impermissible hindsight vision afforded by the claimed invention; and
(D) Reasonable expectation of success is the standard with which obviousness is determined.

A suggestion:  Practice looking up questions even if you know the answer.  As I said a few post up, I had over an hour to look up questions.

I can't stress enough the importance of having down pat the interplay between death/assignment/signing/power of attorney/type-of-application (original, continuing, reissue, reexamination (not really a applicaiton though)).
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: JM_Nano on 05-04-06 at 01:44 pm
Quote
After searching the forum this is what I have for the
aluminum foil plane question.

toy plane with aluminum  foil wing:  

applicant claims a toy plane whose wings are covered in aluminum foil.  the spec describes a toy plane whose wings are covered in foil but whose body isn't.  reference discloses a plane that is covered entirely in chewing gum wrapper, which includes aluminum foil and another material.  claim is rejected, and applicant responds by arguing that covering only the wings in foil provides useful aerodynamic properties, .......................

similar to Oct 2003: PM 46 (airplane with foil on wings, prior art has airplane covered completely in chewing gum wrapper)

46. A primary examiner is examining a patent application. The application includes a specification and a single claim to the invention that reads as follows:
1. A building material to ................"


Hi, Thisguydave:

I can not see the analogy between these two questions.

For the toy plane question, is the rejection based on 102 or 103?

Can anybody familiar with this question clarify the answer?  Thanks.

JM
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Thisguydave on 05-04-06 at 02:48 pm
Hi JM_Nano,

I was reposting all the details I could find in the previous
forum posts on the foil airplane question, I posted the question in the hopes it may trigger someone's memory as far as the details are concerned.

D.


Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wolfcastle on 05-04-06 at 03:02 pm
I got the tin foil airplane question, and I don't rember if the plane was rejected under 102 or 103. I don't think it could be rejected under 102 since all the elements where not taught in the reference(ie: the lack of foil on the body). I believe that is was rejected under 103, and the answer I put down was that it patentable due to unexpected results(ie: the airplane flew better than the one with all foil).

Of course, this is all just speculation. It is possible that my answer was off by a mile. In my take on the question, the fact that chewing gum wrappers made out of aluminium were used previously was just a red herring designed to throw you off.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Thisguydave on 05-04-06 at 03:06 pm
Details on the Spanish phone are sparce.

This is the best I have found

CIP of design for a Spanish phone.

More details gratefully accepted  :)

D.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: fingers crossed on 05-04-06 at 03:40 pm
JM_Nano and Thisguydave,

The fact patterns for the plane/foil and composite/balsa are the same, just substitue one for the other.  The PTO like to recycle questions, easier to make minor changes to the unimportant details than to rewrite a new question that potentially could have been appealed back in the days of appeal.  This is a classic example of how learning to recognize fact patterns will give you a quick and easy answer.  

The fact pattern is this, inventor A invents X, examiner finds prior art by inventor B that is the same as X.  Inventor A argues that invention X is different from inventor B, but does not change the claims.  Examiner should reject under 112 second paragraph (indefinite) since inventor A did not amend his claims to reflect the difference from inventor B.  

The same thing with the lip balm question, it is a variation of the store owner with the special floor coating, i.e. research versus public use.  

Thisguydave, since you found the 'a sample from the pool of questions thread', really pay attention to the similar to questions, especially the ones that could have minutia changed to make it look like a new question.

The spanish phone question had to do with a design patent and I believe the fact that design patent priority must be claimed with in 6 months (versus 1 year for utility)
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wolfcastle on 05-04-06 at 03:57 pm
From what I remember about the spanish phone question, a phone was made in Spain. A US application covering the utility of the phone was filed within the appropriate time period. Later, the patent issues for the phone in Spain. Some time later, while the application is still at the USPTO, the inventors the realize that they have a great looking phone and they want to get a patent for the design. What can they do?

A. File a design app claiming priority to the US application
B. File file a CIP of the utility application
C. Give up
D. File a design application with prioirty based off the spanish patent application


Please keep in mind that this was only 1 of 100 questions I had to answer that day, so it is quite possible that some of the details of the question are wrong. Of course, one little small detail change in the question will likely cause a different answer to be correct.

I think the answer I chose was give up since you only have 6 months for design patents under 102(d).
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Thisguydave on 05-04-06 at 04:09 pm
Thanks for the clarification fingers crossed.

Any insight on the

The clock fan with different dimensions question.

Something to do with taking existing parts
and assembling them to make a clock, and
the inventor has taken the time to resize the
parts so they all fit together?

D.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: fingers crossed on 05-04-06 at 04:22 pm
Amendment to my earlier post.  

Forgive me for my mis-post, it has been over a year since I last looked at this stuff.  The answer to the plane/composite question is actually issue a final rejection under 102, but the reason for the rejection is the same, because the inventor did not amend the claim.  

I am unable to provide any insight into the clock/fan question since I it was not part of my test.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: JM_Nano on 05-04-06 at 05:53 pm
Fingers Crossed:
& Thisguydave:

Thanks a lot for the toy plane questions.  Finally got the puzzle pieced together.

If the applicant did not limit the original claims when filing and did not make amendment to limit the claim either, it makes perfect sense for a final rejection under 102.  Any other change in the details can make a different answer.

Thanks again.

BTW, the spanish phone sounds so familiar. Is it not in any old exam?

JM
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bc on 05-05-06 at 07:39 am
Hi.  Anyone out there use the Innovita computer test simulator?  I know that there is a bug in the questions sorted by chapter or topic functions (wrong questions in the wrong place).  But I was looking for some material that someone had mentioned was in the Oct 2003 exam.  I couldn't find it on the Innovita disk, so I decided to double check with the paper versions downloaded directly from the OED website.  Three questions on the morn exam and three on the aft exam weren't the same (the rest were all in the proper sequence).   Either there were some minor changes in the paper tests, or there are bugs in the simulator.  Any thoughts?  Thanks.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Margaret F. Emerson on 05-05-06 at 01:07 pm
I have a question regarding the search capability of the prometric exam.  Is it possible to search w/in the patent rules appendix, for example for "methods of payment" (or do you need to find a topic by the alphabetic listing in the index section, i.e. go to P for payment)?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wolfcastle on 05-05-06 at 02:25 pm
All of the 8r2 versions of the PDF files found at:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/index.html

are available on the exam. They are all searchable(including the index), but you can only have one of them open up at a time.

You can't copy and paste from the exam into the search feature, so be aware of that if you have a tendency to type things incorrectly.

You don't have to memorize the chapter names of the MPEP since the chapters have roughly the same names used in the site listed above.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bc on 05-05-06 at 03:53 pm
Hi.  A couple of posts have mentioned that the "Lancer toothbrush" question is a repeat from the Oct 2003 exam.  I can't find it.  Can someone give me the specific reference.  Morn or Aft?  Question number?  This is related to my previous post about searching he Innovita disk and OED paper copies.  I can't find that question in either one.  But maybe my eyes are just too boggled out by now.  Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: SciGuy on 05-05-06 at 07:14 pm
Lancer is from April 2003:

33. A claim in a pending patent application for an electric toothbrush is rejected under 35 USC 102 as being anticipated by a U.S. Patent, which was issued to Lancer, the sole name inventor, for a similar electric toothbrush. The Lancer patent was issued one day before the filing date of the application in question. The claim in the pending application contains a limitation specifying the location of an on/off switch. In accordance with USPTO rules and procedures set forth in the MPEP, which of the following arguments, if true, would overcome the rejection? (A) The Lancer patent discloses and claims an electric toothbrush, but does not mention whether its toothbrush includes a power supply. (B) Evidence is submitted to show the electric toothbrush claimed in the application is commercially successful. (C) The Lancer patent teaches away from the bristles of the claimed toothbrush. (D) Lancer is one of the three named inventors of the claimed toothbrush in the pending application. (E) The on/off switch in the Lancer patent is on a different side of the body than that recited in the claim for the electric toothbrush in the patent application.

33. ANSWER: (A) and (E) are accepted as correct answers. Regarding (E), see MPEP § 2131. To anticipate a claim, the elements of a reference “must be arranged as required by the claim….” See MPEP § 2131, citing In re Bond, 910 F.2d 831, 15 USPQ2d 1566 (Fed. Cir. 1990). In (E), the on/off switch of Lancer’s toothbrush is arranged differently than that of the claimed toothbrush. (A) is accepted as correct because the given facts do not specify the location of the power supply as being included within the toothbrush. Though the description of the toothbrush as being electric can imply an inherent source of power, it may also may imply an external power source for the electric toothbrush. Accordingly, (A) is also accepted as a correct answer in the circumstances. (B) is incorrect because evidence of secondary considerations, such as commercial success, is irrelevant to a 35 U.S.C. § 102 rejection. See MPEP § 2131.04. (C) is incorrect. “‘Arguments that the alleged anticipatory prior art…‘teaches away from the invention’…[are] not ‘germane’ to a rejection under section 102.’” MPEP § 2131.05 (quoting Twin Disc, Inc. v. United States, 231 USPQ 417, 424 (Cl. Ct. 1986)). (D) is incorrect. “The term ‘others’ in 35 U.S.C. 102(a) refers to any entity which is different from the inventive entity. The entity need only differ by one person to be ‘by others.’ This holds true for all types of references eligible as prior art under 35 U.S.C. 102(a) including publications….” MPEP § 2132. Here, because Lancer is only one of three inventors of the claim, the patent is by others.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Sunday_Manoa on 05-05-06 at 08:42 pm
What exactly is the difference between statuatory and non-statuatory double patenting? ???
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bc on 05-06-06 at 05:34 am
Hey SciGuy,  Thanks very much for the scoop on the Lancer toothbrush question.  Looks like I'm not that boggled after all.  I had done the 2001-2003 tests on Innovita, and I just didn't remember Lancer at all.  Such an odd question should have stuck in my mind.  Just cross-checked  Innovita vs OED for the April 2003 test as well.  Three questions in the AM and one in the PM didn't jive.  Murphy's law at work:  The Lancer question is missing from Innovita.  Users of Innovita:  Cross-check the questions with the original paper tests.  Thanks again, Sci Guy.  bc
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: chanti on 05-07-06 at 07:08 am
Need help with some PCT quesions (collected from previous posts)

1. How long you have to correct a PCT application with no address
after you are invited to correct the problem?

2. What is required if you don't make a demand and want to proceed
straight to national stage application -- how to accomplish it and
what needs to be filed?

3. Consequences if certain papers are not sent from IB on time?

4. Applicant files a PCT, but then changes his mind and files an
international application - know what happens when the two conflict?
(the person who posted this picked the answer that said that the
International Application was O.K., but the PCT was not)

5. obscure amendment of abstract question;

6. proving an applicant is authorized to file
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: smgsmc on 05-09-06 at 07:02 pm
Got crisped, not surprised.  Hard time keeping all this stuff in my head, but decided not to keep putting it off and give it a trial spin.  You guys have been really great, so here's some feedback before I get soused and prep for the next round.


Heavy areas:  PCT, Appeals, and Fees (~5 obscure questions on fees!)

Surprises: 3 biotech, NOT simple stuff like sequences on a CD or B&W photos of blots.  One actually went into Recombinant DNA strains and expressing proteins and all that.  I don't think these were general questions with bio examples substituted. looks like they're edging into 103(b) and Chapt 2400.  Also several claims used chem examples instead of traditional physics, ME, and EE.  You need to delve deep into Chapt 2100 for case studies about chemical structures and pharmeceutical processes. Bad news for me who hates bio and organic chem.  But that's the future these days, so it's not surprising that PTO wants to test more.

Pet questions of the day:

(1) Lancer toothbrush (verbatim from 2003).

(2) Velcro.  My variant.  Original claim involved a "fastener".  Rejected.  Applicant narrowed claim to "Velcro fastener". OK or not?  

(3) Aluminum foil toy airplane. Not sure if the details are the same as ones previously reported here. Really tricky wording.  I think there was one answer that was more technically valid than the others, but that wasn't the one that "the practitioner argued."  Many past exam questions have used this ploy...you never know whether it's a deliberate trick or fuzzy wording (surprise, surprise).  Also a point to consider, chewing gum wrapper is not just foil, it's foil bonded to paper. Pretty sure that comes into play.

(4) Spanish phone.  My variant. Design patent applied for with foreign priority to Spanish patent.  Later alters keypad design and files CIP for the new design.  I think the key to this variant is the same as for the others: that foreign priority and 102(d) is 6 mo for design.

(5) Clock, fan, motor. My variant.  Inventor comes up with a combo specifying dimensions of each.  Prior art reference has a drawing, but no dimensions in the spec.  Inventor argues that dimensions are essential.  He measures the drawing and, see, the dimensions are different. But this is absurd of course, since you don't know the scale.


Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: smgsmc on 05-10-06 at 05:15 am
Waaaay back at the start of this thread, when the computer test was just being introduced, there were complaints about the computer test equipment.  What has been people's latest experience?  I know it will depend on the site, but it would be good to get feedback and complain to Thomson and OED.  I took my test in Clark, NJ.  The monitors were old, slow refresh rate, bad flicker.  You couldn't tilt them so there was glare from the overhead light.  My eyes were really strained during the aft session. Worse though was the sticky mouse.  I wanted to cuss everytime I opened MPEP for a search.  Also, their mousepad is the stiff vinyl type, which gets real greasy and smooth with use.  It wasn't just my station.  I switched at the very beginning during the warmup.  I also heard grumbling from other cubicles.  You're pressed for time and every minute counts.  Since the clock keeps ticking, you can't go to the front desk and ask for the mouse and pad to be replaced, even assuming there's one in good working order.  Mice and pads need to be cleaned regularly.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wolfcastle on 05-10-06 at 07:44 am
I certainly agree that less than ideal computers/monitors can make an already stressful situation much worse. Some useful advice that people have given includes:

1. Bring asprin for when your eyes start to hurt

2. Take a ~3 minute break halfway through each section and go to the bathroom or eat a candy bar. It will help you relax and come back more focused.

3. Create an answer sheet that has 1 through 50 A,B,C,D,E so you can easily note which answers you have found are wrong.

4. Take the full one hour break between sections, but you may want to come back and create an answer sheet for the second section.

5. Drive to the testing site before the day you actually take the test. You don't want to show up to the site stressed from not being able to find the place.

6. When you visit the site, plan your break. At my site there was a Krispy Kreme store close by so it was fairly obvious what I was going to do.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: smgsmc on 05-10-06 at 09:09 am
Yeah, I did most of the right things.  (1) I drove to the site the day before.  On the day of the test, I allowed an extra 45 min in case of traffic.  (2) Popped Motrin before the exam. (3) Put eyedrops in before the morn session and before the aft session. (4) Brought my lunch with me. (5) Writing ABCD 50 times left me with a stiff wrist though.  (6) Other posts have talked about dressing in layers to get comfortable as the room temp changes.  In my test site, I was told I couldn't wear a sweater inside and then take it off.  If I wanted to take off the sweater, I would have to sign out and put it in the coat rack.   Check the local protocol. (7) A lot of this is taking a 6-hr test in one day.  Besides a mental test, it's also a test of physical endurance.

I called up Thomson this morn to carp. (1)  They told me that all the monitors had problems yesterday and had "loaded new software" afterwards to fix it.  Not sure what that means, unless all the video drivers got corrupted.  Well, great for people taking exams today, not so great for those of us yesterday. (2) As for other problems...the stock reply is "Raise your hand and we'll move you to another station."  Not acceptable in my book; who wants to keep getting moved around.  If it's a generic problem, moving won't help.  (3) By the way, one thing I found out this morn, but was not aware of yesterday, is that they stop the clock if you need to be moved or otherwise have problems with the equipment.  Other posts had warned that the clock keeps ticking away, which was a main reason I put up with it.  I'll know better next time. (4) I was told this morn that I was supposed to get a site evaluation form yesterday, but I didn't.  But again, feedback after the damage has been done doesn't do you much good.  And it doesn't appear to help future test takers either.

My basic question:  Have others complained?  If you passed the first time, it's no longer relevant to you.  But what about others who have had to go back?  The local site referred me to the national "customer care center".  Waiting for a return call.  I'm later going to call OED to see whether anyone there monitors the test centers.  After all, we cough up $150 for the privilege and our future careers are on the line.  Others please chime in.  Don't know if all Thomson sites follow the same physical layout.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: smgsmc on 05-10-06 at 09:12 am
Yeah, I did most of the right things.  (1) I drove to the site the day before.  On the day of the test, I allowed an extra 45 min in case of traffic.  (2) Popped Motrin before the exam. (3) Put eyedrops in before the morn session and before the aft session. (4) Brought my lunch with me. (5) Writing ABCD 50 times left me with a stiff wrist though.  (6) Other posts have talked about dressing in layers to get comfortable as the room temp changes.  In my test site, I was told I couldn't wear a sweater inside and then take it off.  If I wanted to take off the sweater, I would have to sign out and put it in the coat rack.   Check the local protocol. (7) A lot of this is taking a 6-hr test in one day.  Besides a mental test, it's also a test of physical endurance.

I called up Thomson this morn to carp. (1)  They told me that all the monitors had problems yesterday and had "loaded new software" afterwards to fix it.  Not sure what that means, unless all the video drivers got corrupted.  Well, great for people taking exams today, not so great for those of us yesterday. (2) As for other problems...the stock reply is "Raise your hand and we'll move you to another station."  Not acceptable in my book; who wants to keep getting moved around.  If it's a generic problem, moving won't help.  (3) By the way, one thing I found out this morn, but was not aware of yesterday, is that they stop the clock if you need to be moved or otherwise have problems with the equipment.  Other posts had warned that the clock keeps ticking away, which was a main reason I put up with it.  I'll know better next time. (4) I was told this morn that I was supposed to get a site evaluation form yesterday, but I didn't.  But again, feedback after the damage has been done doesn't do you much good.  And it doesn't appear to help future test takers either.

My basic question:  Have others complained?  If you passed the first time, it's no longer relevant to you.  But what about others who have had to go back?  The local site referred me to the national "customer care center".  Waiting for a return call.  I'm later going to call OED to see whether anyone there monitors the test centers.  After all, we cough up $150 for the privilege and our future careers are on the line.  Others please chime in.  Don't know if all Thomson sites follow the same physical layout.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 05-10-06 at 09:14 am
Quote
Waaaay back at the start of this thread, when the computer test was just being introduced, there were complaints about the computer test equipment.  What has been people's latest experience?  I know it will depend on the site, but it would be good to get feedback and complain to Thomson and OED.  I took my test in Clark, NJ.  The monitors were old, slow refresh rate, bad flicker.  You couldn't tilt them so there was glare from the overhead light.  My eyes were really strained during the aft session. Worse though was the sticky mouse.  I wanted to cuss everytime I opened MPEP for a search.  Also, their mousepad is the stiff vinyl type, which gets real greasy and smooth with use.  It wasn't just my station.  I switched at the very beginning during the warmup.  I also heard grumbling from other cubicles.  You're pressed for time and every minute counts.  Since the clock keeps ticking, you can't go to the front desk and ask for the mouse and pad to be replaced, even assuming there's one in good working order.  Mice and pads need to be cleaned regularly.


You just neet to be a little creative to adjust the station to you liking.

1.  You can flip the mouse pad over and use the rubber side, which usually works better than new textured vinyl.  
2.  Mice are really easy to clean, you just rotate the plate holding the ball in place to open, remove the ball, remove the built-up lint, remove the grime on the side rollers, replace everything.  This can be done in less than two minutes, especially if you practice with your own mouse.
3.  I was able to adjust the refresh rate on my monitor by right mouse clicking and using the 'properties' function.  You may need to shrink the window to get to the desktop.
4.  They will usually issue you several pencils, since they are not mechanical and prone to breaking/dulling.  Use one on each side to prop up your monitor.  Additionally, you could use the top portion of your keyboard or adjust your seat height.

All of these things can be done during the fifteen minutes alloted to review the tutorial, which is the same one on the OED/Thompson website.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: smgsmc on 05-10-06 at 09:22 am
Hi.  This is funny.  I also flipped the mouse pad over.  But in my case, the foam was brittle and started shreading.  But you're missing my basic point.  Why should you need to clean the mouse, prop up the monitor with a pencil, and other clever jury-rigs in the first place?  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 05-10-06 at 10:04 am
Quote
Hi.  This is funny.  I also flipped the mouse pad over.  But in my case, the foam was brittle and started shreading.  But you're missing my basic point.  Why should you need to clean the mouse, prop up the monitor with a pencil, and other clever jury-rigs in the first place?  


I agree that the equipment should be upgraded, but you are also missing my point.  If you let minor inconviences like these get you so riled up that you cannot concentrate on the exam, then you may never pass.  Do you want to leave the fate of your next exam to the host site, or do you want to be proactive and adjust things as best as you can so you can turn your focus to the minutia of patent law.  If you had taken two minutes to clean your mouse during the tutorial session, how much time and aggravation would that have saved you during your exam?  According to an earlier post, approximately 55% of the people who took the exam last year passed and those who passed took the exam under the same or conditions you had.  

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: mfe on 05-10-06 at 10:42 am
I'm loving all the negative feedback regarding the test site. We should complain to them! I had the "opportunity" to have taken the exam last year (in MN) - let's call it a practice run shall we... Anyway the screen was flickering and green. I could barely read it. The monitor should have been in a museum. I'm hoping things have improved in a year.  One minor bonus was that they had giant earphones so that I would not be able to hear the person 2.5 feet away from me slobbering all over the end of their pencil.  :o
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: smgsmc on 05-10-06 at 12:41 pm
One last post on equipment and site layout and I'll drop it to concentrate on technical work.

To: mfe and others.  

If we don't complain to Thomson AND ESPECIALLY OED, things will never improve.  You're HOPING that things have improved.  And it looks like you can't assume they have.  Check it out first.  Others who have gone through this (and unfortunately have to go through it again) need to speak up.  

To:  Guest.

Your point is well taken.  However, we can't always improvise.  (1) mfe's hardware probably didn't support a higher refresh rate.  No amount of tweaking software can do anything  about that (Even assuming she had user access to tweaking the refresh rate.  And remember, on older units, you need to reboot the PC when you change the refresh rate.) (2) I've cleaned plenty of mice.  When they get too gunky, I need to break out the canned air, alcohol wipes, and swabs.  I don't want to HOPE that I can clean them with my fingers and sleeve. (3) I couldn't use the pencil trick even if I wanted to.  In my site, rule is two pencils only.  If you wear out both pencils, you need to turn them in for fresh ones.  And, no, I don't want to jam the front of my keyboard under the monitor.   I guess I could also have jammed a headset under it or be creative with whatever was available.  And, no, my chair didn't adjust properly. (4)  As I mentioned above, I couldn't use the foam side of my mousepad because it was too rotted.  I almost tore a sheet from my booklet, but I was concerned that may have violated test center protocol.  

So what if 55% passed with grungy equipment?  That leaves 45% who didn't.  In my instance, I was crisped enough that I would have failed even with better equipment.  I readily admit that.  Next round I plan to be better prepared.  I want my success or failure to be limited by my skills not by the test site.

Point to ponder:  How many people who had scores in the ~65 - 69 range would have hit 70 if they had decent equipment and a properly configured test room?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wolfcastle on 05-10-06 at 01:17 pm
Frankly, I see complaining to OED about the prometric equipment as roughly the same as complaining about the vague and tricky questions asked on the exam.

The bad equipment is part of the exam. The exam does not test your ability to be a good patent agent, it tests your ability to pass the exam. It’s not a coincidence that pass rate the computer based test is roughly the same as for the older paper based exams. The exam is designed to fail a certain percentage of people who take it, and the bad equipment is another factor that helps to acheive the desired pass rate.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Sunday_Manoa on 05-10-06 at 03:12 pm
I got up this morning, said a prayer, went in and passed the test.  I don't know whether it was the prayer or the six Vicodin but either way I can't complain ;D.

Do they give different tests simultaneously?  I had no aluminum planes, Velcro.  I did have death though, lots of death.  Do people really spontaneously die after they file a patent?  Or does getting a patent take so long that this becomes a not unusual occurance?  If it's the former, I really have to rethink this as a profession.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: nate on 05-11-06 at 03:17 pm
Congrats to all who have passed the exam!  

I am working on the old exams and not sure about the answer of Q39 in OCT 2003 morning.  The answer posted was: Credit Given For All Answers.  Since someone has mentioned that it is one of the repeats in test, I want to confirm the correct choices.  Any combination of (A), (B) and (C)?  Thanks.

39. On May 1, 2001, a complete patent application was filed with the USPTO naming H as
the sole inventor. A primary examiner rejected all the claims in the application under 35
USC 102(e) as being anticipated by a U.S. Patent granted to inventors H and S. The patent was
granted on September 25, 2001 on an application filed on December 7, 2000. The claims of the
patent application and U.S. patent define the same patentable invention as defined in 37
CFR 1.601(n). The U.S. patent and the application have common ownership. Which of the
following, if properly submitted by applicant, would overcome the rejection in accordance with
the patent laws, rules and procedures as related in the MPEP?
(A) File a terminal disclaimer in accordance with 37 CFR 1.321(c).
(B) File a declaration under 37 CFR 1.131 to establish the inventor invented the
subject matter of the rejected claim prior to the effective date of the reference X.
(C) File a declaration stating that the application and patent are currently owned by
the same party, and that the inventor named in the application is the prior inventor
under 35 USC 104.
(D) (A) and (C).
(E) All of the above.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 05-11-06 at 03:46 pm
Answer "C" is wrong because it is not applicable to 102 rejections.  That's enough to rule out answers "D" and "E" as well.

Answer A is wrong.  A terminal disclaimer would be part of what's needed to invoke 103(c) to overcome a 103 rejection or a non statutory double patenting rejection, but does not help with a 102(e) rejection.

That leaves B

B won't  work because the claimed invention in the application is the same as the claimed invention in the patent.    Cannot use 1.131 in that case.


What might work is a 1.132 declaration that the inventor H alone invented the particular subject matter in the reference used in the rejection.  But that ain't one of the choices.

Looking at the answer key, it looks like the PTO gave credit for any response to question 39.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Flunky on 05-11-06 at 04:02 pm
I took the test for the second time today and failed again (65). See my previous posts on page 57.  This time memorized all 400 questions from the 2002 and 2003 exams. There were 28 questions that were from those exams, and I know I got all of those correct. There were questions that you could search all day and never find the answer. There were questions in the form "Which of the following is proper USPTO practice and procedure" followed by 5 totally unrelated answers. This requires you to look up at least three of the answers, wasting a lot of time. Oh well, another $400 down the drain. Maybe I'll try again in a few months.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: thisguydave on 05-11-06 at 04:14 pm
Hi,

Does anyone have recent experience of how long it
takes to get another test, after failing (oh joy 65%).
I just mailed in another application and am hoping
it'll be within 2 weeks.

Any input?

Thanks

D.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: nate on 05-11-06 at 04:28 pm
Thanks Issac.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: smgsmc on 05-12-06 at 05:33 am
One common test strategy is to study old exams, pray that you get a lot of repeats, check those off quickly, and move on.  But we know that PTO is extremely tricky.  Have people noted whether PTO puts subtle twists in old questions, so we in fact need to be extra careful with these instead?  One simple way would be to shuffle the order of answers.  For example, you say to yourself, "Ha! I know the answer is A", except the previous answer A is now answer B (assuming the difference is subtle enough that a quick read won't catch it.)  We also know that PTO is fond of multiple negatives.  Have people found old questions with an extra "not" or two thrown in for fun?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: thisguydave on 05-12-06 at 12:23 pm
Small entity status.

For a company I am sure I read that it has to
have 500 employees or less, but I can't find
a reference for it anywhere now.

If someone has a clue where this information
is hidden I'd really appreciate locating it.

This is the best I can find

(ii)
Meets the size standards set forth in 13 CFR 121.801 through 121.805 to
be eligible for reduced patent fees.


Thanks

D.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: thisguydave on 05-12-06 at 12:36 pm
Small entity status.

For a company I am sure I read that it has to
have 500 employees or less, but I can't find
a reference for it anywhere now.

If someone has a clue where this information
is hidden I'd really appreciate locating it.

This is the best I can find

(ii)
Meets the size standards set forth in 13 CFR 121.801 through 121.805 to
be eligible for reduced patent fees.


Thanks

D.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wolfcastle on 05-12-06 at 01:57 pm
Dave, what exactly is a small business is not defined in the MPEP. Therfore, it is not on the exam, so don't worry about it. Questions dealing with small enity status will usually define something to either have or not have the status. The rare exception is the case were you have to pick out an organization that can never have small entity status. An example would be:

Which of the following can never be considered a small entity?
A. A University with 500 students that receives 37% of its funding from grants from large entity companies.
B. A small buisness with net sales of $2 million/year
C. A small buisness with 200 employees and gross sales of $5.2 million/year
D. The US government
E. A taxi service that employs 520 people, and of those employees, 247 of them are independent contractors.  

This is one of those types of questions that if you get tricked you will most likely waste heaps of time looking for obscure rules regarding independent contractors that simply don't exist in the MPEP.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: fingers crossed on 05-12-06 at 01:58 pm
Quote
Small entity status.

For a company I am sure I read that it has to
have 500 employees or less, but I can't find
 a reference for it anywhere now.

If someone has a clue where this information
is hidden I'd really appreciate locating it.

This is the best I can find

(ii)
Meets the size standards set forth in 13 CFR 121.801 through 121.805 to
be eligible for reduced patent fees.


Thanks

D.




You will not find 13 CFR 121.801 in the MPEP, the MPEP only covers chapter 37 of the Code of Federal Regulations.  Below is a link to the CFR and yes, you are correct that for patent purposes, small entity is 500 or less employees including anyone who takes a license to the invention.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=84c406e172323926ba2362e9dbfe1211&rgn=div5&view=text&node=13:1.0.1.1.15&idno=13#13:1.0.1.1.15.1.238.49


Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 05-12-06 at 02:10 pm
Haven't previous exams asked questions relating to the definition of small entity status as it concerns businesses?  I thought the answers to all questions were to be found in the MPEP.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: fingers crossed on 05-12-06 at 02:40 pm
Quote
Haven't previous exams asked questions relating to the definition of small entity status as it concerns businesses?  I thought the answers to all questions were to be found in the MPEP.



Most of the small entity questions that I remember had to do with incorrectly claiming small entity, incorrectly not claiming small entity, and correctly claiming small entity but licensing to large entity during prosecution.  There may have been a question on an old exam (pre 2000) where you needed to know that small entity was 500 or less.  As for Wolfcastle's posting, just remember government, non-profit and universities, which are all listed in the MPEP, qualify for small entity.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: fingers crossed on 05-12-06 at 02:53 pm
Oops, let me clarify my previous post.  Whereas the government does not qualify for small entity, licensing to the government, in most circumstances, will not change a company's small entity status.
Title: Flashcardexchange.com: Studying w/ Flash cards
Post by: Studying for Bar on 05-13-06 at 09:02 am
Suggestion for those of us who study with flash cards.
Excellent source of flash cards already made by other law student.

I am hoping to get a bank of PATENT BAR study material.  
Just a suggestion not an advertisement.

Share Share Share
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: mfe on 05-14-06 at 12:03 pm
 :(
I just got a 65 on try number two... A suggestion is to make sure you know death. There were three or four questions on the subject. One in particular that was hard to quickly find was what if the inventor dies between filing and issue, and the assignee and the estate are at odds - who controls then?
Also, repeat questions seemed to be modified a bit (someone asked about that before).
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wolfcastle on 05-14-06 at 12:53 pm
Considering that the assignee of the whole interest has the right to exclude a live inventor from prosecution of a patent, wouldn't the assignee control over the estate?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: smgsmc on 05-15-06 at 07:47 am
Sorry to hear the bad news, mfe.  Must be aggravating when you were so close.  I go for my round 2 in about 6 weeks.  How was your test site this time?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: mfe on 05-15-06 at 09:27 am
 :-[
The test site definitely did not improve since the last time. I checked w/ others around MN and it seems that the location I went to is especially bad. Maybe people should ask how new the equipment is before booking with them. A friend that went to a newer center said that she definitely didn't have the problems I did with the search capabilities.  The MPEP search was so slow (even when you went right to the correct chapter) - you would literally sit there for 30 seconds watching a page counter flip through pages. Monitors were still 20 years old. Oh - this really beats all - the computers crashed in the middle of the morning session. And no, they don't seem to employ onsite IT people. Quite a bad experience at that location - won't go to that one or recommend that one to anyone (stay away from Edina, MN everyone).
Found out that such equipment/site complaints can be submitted to: 'OED@uspto.gov'
Better luck on your 2nd try!  ;)
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: thisguydave on 05-15-06 at 09:33 am
hey smgsmc,

how long did you second application take?

D
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: thisguydave on 05-15-06 at 09:34 am
hey smgsmc,

how long did your second application take?

D
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: smgsmc on 05-15-06 at 02:09 pm
Oh, I haven't sent in my second application yet.  I flunked just last Tues and got my official thumbs down in the mail on Sat.  My first application was processed within two weeks, so I don't see a need to blow the $240 unless I'm confident I have a good chance the second time around.  Six weeks is just my target date.  I have a hard time memorizing all this material.  I figure if I don't consistently score ~90 - 95 in the old exams...at home, low stress, with good computer gear...then I might fold (and save the $150 Prometrics fee as well).  I'll see.  And good luck to all in round 2 or 3; and round 1, of course.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Guest on 05-15-06 at 08:29 pm
So, I am getting passing scores with good margins on the old exams on the first tries.  I am eager to take the exam but have to wait until next Tuesday.  Besides going back over the old exams again and again, can anyone suggest ways to keep all of this information fresh in my mind for a whole week?  I wish the date was closer!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Newguy on 05-17-06 at 04:16 pm
I know many of us took the exam - but not all passed. It would be very helpful =whether you passed or failed = to post as many questions as possible from the exam.  I know its very demotivating to post stuff when you failed but - if enough people post - then we all have a shot at passing the exam.  I'll be taking it in June - pass or fail - I will post as many questions as I can remember.  As a new guy - could anyone give a list of common questions that they remember from previous exams - that were taken recently.

Thanks
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest on 05-17-06 at 05:48 pm
Quote
I know many of us took the exam - but not all passed. It would be very helpful =whether you passed or failed = to post as many questions as possible from the exam.  I know its very demotivating to post stuff when you failed but - if enough people post - then we all have a shot at passing the exam.  I'll be taking it in June - pass or fail - I will post as many questions as I can remember.  As a new guy - could anyone give a list of common questions that they remember from previous exams - that were taken recently.

Thanks



Read all 70+ pages of this thread, people have been posting exam question for almost two years.  I would estimate that one-third to one-half of the questions in the USPTO test bank have already been mentioned or described.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: bubba on 05-17-06 at 09:02 pm
Took the test today for first time and passed.  This message board deserves a fair amount of credit for that small miracle.   Most of the stuff on this board has been accurate as far as what they are testing so I'm really not going to break any new ground.  Here's what I remember...

Lots of repeats... approx 20-30 questions.   Been said many times but I'll say it again...Study the 2002 and 2003 exams and know why every answer is right or wrong.  I spent the last two days (10-12 hours per day) just focusing on the '02 and '03 exams.

About 10 PCT questions-what do you need to get accorded a filing date for the IA,  What can you fax, who has authority to sign, priority dates, 102(e) flowchart questions, Art. 19/34 amendments.  This board freaked me out about the PCT but it wasn't really that bad.  Just know the basic big picture stuff, the questions from the board, and you'll be able to look up everything else.

The classics-Lancer, 147 claims (Multiple Dep.), Tribell, spanish phone (but no velcro, foil airplane, or lip gloss)

~5 dead inventor questions-why is the PTO emphasizing this so much?  I almost laughed every time I saw another one of these type questions.   Save yourself some time and know this stuff before the exam.

-who signs a terminal disclaimer when there are multiple assignees and multiple inventors.

-claims are unduly multiplied question

-appeal (new rejections, affirm rejection of ind. claim w/accompanying  dep. claims)

-Reply to final office action within 2 months, advisory action after shortened stat. period, when do you measure extensions from? - mailing date of AA or receipt of AA?

-what is a new app?-RCE, CPA, prov app.

-effect of Dist. Ct. Judgment/ CAFC-- if the claims are found valid/invalid in the court, can they later be found valid/invalid in subsequent actions by the PTO?  See previous posts-I think its a 2000 question.  Just know that the court can find a claim valid but the PTO can find other info that later renders them invalid in something like a reexam.

~5 reissue questions including one to correct inventorship.

That's all I can remember right now.  I'm going to sleep.

Oh yeah, they (Prometric) make you take a computerized survey ( 8 questions) after the exam, but before they tell you whether you passed or failed.  Bastards.  

On a good note, my testing center was really nice.  My MPEP menu was quicker than anything I used in preparation.  As previously mentioned, get used to version 5 of Adobe reader.   You've gotta get quick at looking things up on the computerized version of the MPEP-this is a big key to passing the exam.

Hope this helps somebody pass.  






Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: florida on 05-18-06 at 01:17 pm
On my test I noticed that there were a lot of repeats from the october 2003 test.  This was lucky for me because this was the last practice test that I took.  I had 10 tests total, and in 6 weeks I only had time to do 9 of them.  When it came down to the day before the test, I had two practice tests to choose from and I almost didn't do the october 2003 test because I knew that it had the lowest national pass rate.

I also noticed that there were about 3-5 dead inventor questions.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: smgsmc on 05-18-06 at 01:25 pm
Quote
:-[
The test site definitely did not improve since the last time. I checked w/ others around MN and it seems that the location I went to is especially bad. Maybe people should ask how new the equipment is before booking with them. A friend that went to a newer center said that she definitely didn't have the problems I did with the search capabilities.  The MPEP search was so slow (even when you went right to the correct chapter) - you would literally sit there for 30 seconds watching a page counter flip through pages. Monitors were still 20 years old. Oh - this really beats all - the computers crashed in the middle of the morning session. And no, they don't seem to employ onsite IT people. Quite a bad experience at that location - won't go to that one or recommend that one to anyone (stay away from Edina, MN everyone).
Found out that such equipment/site complaints can be submitted to: 'OED@uspto.gov'
Better luck on your 2nd try!  ;)



To All:  mfe has great advice.  Please write to OED to complain.  I've had a frustrating time with a rep at the Thomson Prometrics "Customer <We Don't> Care Center".  The only answer I got to my complaints was "Your problem has been logged and will be forwarded to a district manager.  No further discussion.  It is an internal matter."  She was a supervisor and absolutely refused to let me talk to anyone higher up.  Get this:  According to her, if I want to have the equipment checked out in advance to make sure it works, and to clean a dirty mouse and such...I would have to apply to the USPTO for a "special needs" dispensation.  Straight out of Dilbert.   I called another site to ask about the age and condition of their equipment.  They told me they couldn't tell me; they also said I couldn't visit the site in advance to see whether it was better or worse than the other one.


I called up OED.  The rep there told me that when people have complaints they need to send e-mail to the address listed by mfe; otherwise, OED never knows that there are problems.  At the very least, when the contract with Thomson comes up for renewal, OED will have a record of complaints.  I'd like to ask that even those who have passed also write in.  Every letter helps.

Some changes can be done right away in time to help many of us here (routine daily maintenance and check, e.g.); other changes (equipment upgrade, e.g.) will be too late for us, but will help others in the future.  I know others disagree, but I don't think we should shrug and say to ourselves, "This is the way it is.  We can't do anything about it.  Live with it."  There's too much at stake.  I've spoken to OED several times about different issues; each time the rep was polite, knowledgeable, and responsive.  No runaround...I was impressed.  Can't say that about Thomson.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: pingsj2004 on 05-18-06 at 02:05 pm
I believe that you passed the exam. Would you like to sell your materail?
Tks
Lisa
408-820-8011
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Thisguydave on 05-22-06 at 07:30 am
Hi,  

Sent off my application for my 2nd test on  Saturday 29th of April and received my ok to take the test again reply on Saturday 20th of May, 3 weeks to the day.  
Just a heads up.

D.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: smgsmc on 05-22-06 at 09:19 am
Quote
Hi,  

Sent off my application for my 2nd test on  Saturday 29th of April and received my ok to take the test again reply on Saturday 20th of May, 3 weeks to the day.  
Just a heads up.

D.



Thanks for the info.  Follow-up question.   Does the new 90-day window start on the earliest day you can retake it?  For example, if the earliest date for a retake is July 15, but you send in your application and they process it by July 1, does the 90 day window begin on July 1 or July 15?  (Gee, sounds like an exam question!)  I don't want to lose any of the window in case I get delayed.  Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Thisguydave on 05-22-06 at 10:33 am
I took the test on the 26th of April.

My dates for the next exam are 5/25/06 - 08/23/06

D.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Thisguydave on 05-22-06 at 01:58 pm
Opinion please  :)

Question 2 October 2003 AM

I know this is an all answers accepted, but it would
seem there is just a typo in the question 36 USC 103(A)
instead of 35 USC 103(A).

If you over look the typo which answer would you go
for?

D ?????


Thanks

D.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 05-22-06 at 02:27 pm
2. A claim in a pending patent application stands rejected under 35 USC 103(a) as being obvious over Kim in view of Lance. The Kim and Lance references are both U.S. Patents issued on respective applications filed before the date of the application in question. In the rejection, the primary examiner asserted that no determination of the level of ordinary skill in the art was
necessary because the subject matter of the application and of Kim and Lance were so easily understandable; and that the Kim reference relates to the applicant’s endeavor. The examiner properly found motive in Kim and Lance for combining the references, but the motive would produce a benefit different from that offered by applicant’s invention. Neither reference teaches or suggests the ambiguous limitation. In the rejection under 36 USC 103(a), the examiner did not address an ambiguous limitation in the claim. However, the examiner separately rejected under 35 USC 112, second paragraph as indefinite due to the ambiguity. According to the patent laws, rules and procedures as related in the MPEP, which of the following arguments, if true, would overcome the rejection?

(A) The examiner asserted that because the subject matter of the application and of Kim and Lance were so easily understandable, a factual determination of the level of skill in the art was unnecessary.
(B) The Kim reference is nonanalogous art because, although it relates to the field of the applicant’s endeavor, it is not pertinent to the particular problem with which the applicant was concerned.
(C) The reason given by the examiner to combine Kim and Lance is to obtain a benefit different from that offered by the applicant’s invention.
(D) Neither the Kim nor Lance references teaches or suggests the ambiguous claimed limitation that the examiner separately rejected as indefinite.
(E) All of the above.


Ignoring the typo...

C is wrong because the motivation to combine can be different from the applicant's purpose.   That means E is incorrect as well.

D is wrong because even if individual references do not separately teach a limitation, the combined references might teach the limitation.

B is wrong because art can be analogous if it either  it relates to the field of or is pertinent to the particular problem of concern to the inventor.

A is wrong because a specific finding of the level of skill in the art may not be required in all cases.   See MPEP 2141.03.

While D is the most attractive answer, I don't see an answer I could mark correct.   Somebody goofed.   I suspect the intent was to test whether the examiner has to address an ambigous limitation.   The Examiner is suppose to pick the easiest possible interpretation of an ambigous limitation to reject and then to make a complete 103 rejection.  Unfortunately the question failed to test anything because another potentially testable point was included in the quesiton.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: byte on 05-23-06 at 03:11 pm
Well, I passed the patent registration exam today.  While subsequent substances have yet to counteract the effects of caffeine pills, I will say that I believe the morning section had at least 25 questions similar to or the same as questions found in the 2002/2003 tests, and was relatively straightforward.

The afternoon section, however, was far more difficult.  From what I can recollect, only 5 or so questions matched questions on previous exams from 2002/2003, though I did encounter the lancer toothbrush question, the spanish phone question, and the foil airplane question.  Rather than reach out to various sections of the MPEP, the exam seemed intent on focusing primarily on appeal and reexamination, and I had to resort to lookup for many if not most questions.  Of course, there were a number of questions based on material besides appeal and reexamination, but if I had to pick subjects of focus, these would definitely be it.

Good luck to future test takers.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: cerass84 on 05-23-06 at 06:09 pm
hey guys,
thanks for all the help on this board. I'm scheduled to take the exam next month and have one small question regarding the electronic MPEP that's dished out in the exam. Does it have an index page, just as the paper based MPEP?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: JM_Nano on 05-24-06 at 11:11 am

I have two related questions which did not appear on the previous exams.  

1. In a situation, you found that your competitor just got one granted patent.  But you know for sure that the product based on this invention was for sale in this country more than 1yr before filing (102 b bar).  The evidence you have is a photo showing the product taken one year before the filing.   And also he is not the actual inventor (say he found this product in a foreign country being used for years) -102 f rejection.   But he did not disclose and the examiner did not find out. And then the patent is granted.  The similar situation appears in the previous exams but the question did not.  How can you get the patent invalidated?

Either Public use proceeding or protest is not a choice here due to granted patent.
Either citation of art or reexam is not a choice either since you do not have a printed publication.

Is this something beyond USPTO?  What can you do?

2.  Small entity for a university:  If a university of a big size is private offering degrees to students, does it qualify for small entity?  MPEP only points out "public" university.

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Wiscagent on 05-24-06 at 03:59 pm
“Is this something beyond USPTO?”  Yes, I believe the federal courts would have to resolve this one.  Certainly you could use your evidence if charged with infringement.  

My understanding (based on nothing in particular) is that a “public” university is one that admits members of the public as students.  In contrast a seminary, for example, might have very restrictive rules for admission relating to sex, religion, age, and so forth.  I do not interpret “public” as primarily funded by tax payers.  But this is just my impression, I have no evidence.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: thisguydave on 05-24-06 at 07:55 pm
Thanks for the great answer Issac.
Appreciate it

D.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Thisguydave on 05-24-06 at 07:57 pm
How similar is it to this question JM_Nano?
April 2001 AM question 40.

40. In June 1998, Jack and Jill, a married couple, are vacationing in Vietnam (not a WTO
country) when they encounter a man selling bamboo knives for cleaning fish. The particular curvature of the bamboo both lends support to the knife to prevent it from bending and breaking and facilitates cleaning inside the fish. Jill takes a picture of Jack with the knife cleaning the fish. Subsequently, in November 1998, when Jack returns to the United States he begins to make and sell an identical knife to the one seen in Vietnam. In July 1999, he files a patent application claiming the nearly identical knife. Jack discloses no prior art during the prosecution of his application and fails to mention the knife he saw in Vietnam. The examiner finds no prior art similar to the claimed knife, and Jack is awarded a patent in December 2000. Meanwhile, Jill divorces Jack, and associates with Sam. Unfortunately, Sam is penniless. To raise cash, Sam and Jill begin selling a knife identical to the one Jack produces, only Sam and Jill make their knife out of plastic. The knives of Sam and Jill sell like hotcakes. Jack sues for infringement.  Jill and Sam come to you for advice. Which of the following is not true?


(A) Jack is entitled to patent protection since Vietnam is not a WTO country and
evidence of the Vietnamese knife cannot be used against him to reject his patent
claims.

(B) Jack had a duty under 37 C.F.R. §1.56 to disclose his discovery of the bamboo
knife in Vietnam to the examiner during the original patent prosecution.

(C) Since the use in Vietnam was not in this country, it does not constitute a public
use bar under 35 U.S.C. § 102(B).

(D) If Jill’s attorney files a request for reexamination, it will be denied because the
picture is not a patent or printed publication.

(E) Although Jack marketed the invention before obtaining a patent, the patent claims
cannot be invalidated under 35 U.S.C. § 102(A) since Jack’s making and selling of
the knife cannot be used against him under 35 U.S.C. § 102(A).


40. ANSWER: (A) is the most correct answer. Answer (A) is not true since Jack did not invent
the knife, therefore he is not entitled to a patent. Jack derived the invention from another, and
the picture of Jack with the Vietnamese knife is evidence of derivation. 35 U.S.C. § 102(f);
MPEP § 2137. Answer (B) is correct in that Jack should have disclosed “all information
material to patentability,” including the existence of the Vietnamese knife, during the original
patent prosecution. (C) is correct in that to qualify as prior under 35 U.S.C. § 102(b), the use
must be in this country. (D) is correct in that a request for reexamination must be based upon
patents and printed publications. (E) is correct in that public use derived from the inventor’s
own work cannot be used against the inventor under 35 U.S.C. § 102(a). MPEP § 2132.

D.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: smgsmc on 05-25-06 at 06:54 pm
Quote
I have two related questions which did not appear on the previous exams.  

1. In a situation, you found that your competitor just got one granted patent.  But you know for sure that the product based on this invention was for sale in this country more than 1yr before filing (102 b bar).  The evidence you have is a photo showing the product taken one year before the filing.   And also he is not the actual inventor (say he found this product in a foreign country being used for years) -102 f rejection.   But he did not disclose and the examiner did not find out. And then the patent is granted.  The similar situation appears in the previous exams but the question did not.  How can you get the patent invalidated?

Either Public use proceeding or protest is not a choice here due to granted patent.
Either citation of art or reexam is not a choice either since you do not have a printed publication.

Is this something beyond USPTO?  What can you do?

2.  Small entity for a university:  If a university of a big size is private offering degrees to students, does it qualify for small entity?  MPEP only points out "public" university.

Thanks.



MPEP points out "public or other nonprofit institution".  I don't know what the legal definition is, but contrary to another post, in common use, "public" refers to a university funded by the government, usually state universities.  For example, U. of Mass is a public university because it is funded and administered by the state.  MIT is a private university, but it is nonprofit and meets all the other MPEP university criteria for small entity.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Thisguydave on 05-28-06 at 08:56 am
Hi,

If anyone is taking the test in the next 2 weeks, I'd
really appreciate feedback on any questions or
pointers you can bring back.

Thanks in advance.

D.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: pingsj2004 on 05-29-06 at 12:37 pm
Would you like to sell your materail if you pass your exam. Let me know.

Tks.
Lisa
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: mfe on 05-30-06 at 02:39 pm
Good news for all you taking the Exam soonish. I just received a very pleasant call from a guy way up in Prometric (a friend of a friend) and he said that a known bug in the search engine of the mpep was just fixed on 5/18/06! So you can forget some of my previous complaining (about seeing page numbers go by as you waited for your search to finish). I'd still recommend going to the newest test location you can find though- for the newest monitors/equipment.
Good luck -
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: smgsmc on 05-30-06 at 03:04 pm
Quote
Good news for all you taking the Exam soonish. I just received a very pleasant call from a guy way up in Prometric (a friend of a friend) and he said that a known bug in the search engine of the mpep was just fixed on 5/18/06! So you can forget some of my previous complaining (about seeing page numbers go by as you waited for your search to finish). I'd still recommend going to the newest test location you can find though- for the newest monitors/equipment.
Good luck -


Thanks for the follow-up, mfe.  Since you have the ear of someone at Prometrics...have you brought up the overall issue of low-grade equipment, lack of maintenance...lack of  uniform policy governing sites?  Could you also check whether there is a policy on checking out a test site in advance?  After round one, I called up another test site and asked (1) How old is your equipment and (2) Can I visit the site in advance?  Answers:  (1) Can't tell you and (2) No way.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Thisguydave on 05-30-06 at 04:11 pm
I feel your pain smgsmc.

I only have 2 sites as options, I tried calling but it
was a waste of time, the people working there are
pretty clueless.

So I took a drive and visited both. Chatted to
the people in the office and did the best I could
to look around.  The equipment at both locations
looked equally antique.  The seating arrangement
at the one location looked the least depressing so
I've gone with that.

My point just go take a look, both the sites I visited
you could look into the test are through glass panels.

Good luck

D.

Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: prosdog on 05-31-06 at 09:35 am
Quote
Good news for all you taking the Exam soonish. I just received a very pleasant call from a guy way up in Prometric (a friend of a friend) and he said that a known bug in the search engine of the mpep was just fixed on 5/18/06! Good luck -


Any idea of exactly what the bug was?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: mfe on 05-31-06 at 08:24 pm
The bug evidently caused the extremely slow searches I was experiencing (where you'd see page numbers flip by while you waited 30 seconds for it to find your word in the mpep).  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: smgsmc on 06-02-06 at 01:24 pm
I started a separate post on design patents, but there have been zero replies.  I apologize for repeating questions here, but this thread is where all the action is and I’m trying to wrap things up for round two.


1/Best Mode (Someone else also asked this question in another post and got no answer).

Does the best mode requirement of 35 U.S.C. 112, first paragraph, apply for design patents?  One old exam question says “yes”, another says “no”.  The key reference is:second paragraph of 35 U.S.C. 171 Patents for designs “The provisions of this title relating to patents for inventions shall apply to patents for designs, except as otherwise provided.”

First answer:   Best mode requirement for design patents is not specifically addressed in the MPEP.  Therefore, since it is not “otherwise provided”, the requirement still holds.

Second answer:  There is only one mode for a design.  Therefore, there is no requirement.  Citing Racing Strollers v. TRI Industries. But, I can’t find this reference in MPEP.

Options:  Depending on your use of grammar:  (a)  “Best mode” implies that more than one mode is possible.  Since only one mode is possible for a design, there cannot be a requirement for best mode. (b)   Since only one mode is possible, by default it is the “best mode.”  The requirement holds and is by default met.   (c) A claim can cover “multiple patently indistinct” embodiments.  Is each patently indistinct embodiment a different mode?

At this point, I just want to know which answer will score me a point.

2/ Hidden feature.  MPEP says that you cannot automatically reject a design claim just because the design is hidden under normal use.  But then it goes on to say that if a design is hidden under normal use, it isn't ornamental, which is the basic premise of a design patent.  Then again, ornamentation may be a “matter of concern” even if it is hidden under normal use.  I guess this means that ornamentation of a component may help sell it even though the component is hidden in a final assembly?  Does anyone have a concrete example of a hidden design which is patentable?

3/Rejections under 103(a) (multiple references).  MPEP says you can't just hypothetically take pieces of different designs and slap them together; there must be an actual embodiment.  So, how do you create an obvious combination of two or more pieces of prior art that will bar the applicant’s claim?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: sgh on 06-02-06 at 01:27 pm
Hi all,

I want to thank everyone for their informative posts on this forum, because some of the information was certainly helpful for me to pass the exam yesterday.  This is my first posting on the forum, and I wanted to provide some helpful information for those who have not yet taken the exam.  This is all to the best of my recollection, so some of the numbers are certainly off a bit, but it does provide perspective.

This was by far the most I ever studied for a test in my entire life, and when I was about 75% through with the exam yesterday, I felt certain that I was doomed for failure and thought to myself that I would never want to take this test again if I don't pass.  Though I passed, and am very excited at such, I'm sure that it was by the skin of my teeth and that I could not have scored any better than a 72.

Chapters heavily tested:
600
700
1200
1800
2100
2200

Other chapters tested, with approximate number of questions:
100 (4)
200 (3)
300 (4)
400 (4)
500 (3)
800 (4)
1300 (2)
1400 (2)
1500 (1)
2000 (2)
2500 (1)
2600 (2)
2700 (1)

Chapters not tested:
900
1000
1100
1600
1700
1900
2300
2400


Surprises:
-- the low number of repeats (~8-10) from the written exams from the years 2002 and 2003
-- the number of questions from chapters 100, 300, 400, and 800
-- how much time I had (and had to) search the MPEP
-- why are there so many dead inventors?  (Not too surprised because of this information being posted already on the forum)
-- how complex most of the questions were relative to the written exams from 2002 and 2003
-- how easy the chapters in the MPEP were to search -- the tool worked great
-- how good the Prometric testing site was (Raleigh), other than the monitor refresh rate, which was defaulted to 60 Hz

Good luck to all!

Cheers,
SGH
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: smgsmc on 06-02-06 at 01:32 pm
Similarly, is there a "best mode" requirement for a plant patent?  It is the plant which is patented, not the method for creating it.  35. U.S.C. 161 raises the same "otherwise provided" clause.  Chapt 1600 does not address best mode directly.  I would assume that the answer for a plant patent is the same as for a design patent.  But with MPEP, it is never safe to assume logical consistency.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 06-03-06 at 07:17 am
Quote
I started a separate post on design patents, but there have been zero replies.  I apologize for repeating questions here, but this thread is where all the action is and I’m trying to wrap things up for round two.


1/Best Mode (Someone else also asked this question in another post and got no answer).

Does the best mode requirement of 35 U.S.C. 112, first paragraph, apply for design patents?  One old exam question says “yes”, another says “no”.  The key reference is:second paragraph of 35 U.S.C. 171 Patents for designs “The provisions of this title relating to patents for inventions shall apply to patents for designs, except as otherwise provided.”

First answer:   Best mode requirement for design patents is not specifically addressed in the MPEP.  Therefore, since it is not “otherwise provided”, the requirement still holds.


This logic does not hold up.  The MPEP is not part of Title 35 of the US code so what the MPEP says is not relevant.   The conclusion may be correct, but the reasoning is not.

Quote
Second answer:  There is only one mode for a design.  Therefore, there is no requirement.  Citing Racing Strollers v. TRI Industries. But, I can’t find this reference in MPEP.


I think the real answer is that best mode does apply but generally has no impact.   I'm not familiar with Racing Strollers v. TRI Industries, and I could not find a free source for the case, but a look at cases citing Racing Strollers suggests that Racing Strollers probably says that best mode is irrelevant for the purpose of claiming priority under 35 USC 120, but not for all purposes.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: smgsmc on 06-03-06 at 11:49 am
Quote


This logic does not hold up.  The MPEP is not part of Title 35 of the US code so what the MPEP says is not relevant.   The conclusion may be correct, but the reasoning is not.


I think the real answer is that best mode does apply but generally has no impact.   I'm not familiar with Racing Strollers v. TRI Industries, and I could not find a free source for the case, but a look at cases citing Racing Strollers suggests that Racing Strollers probably says that best mode is irrelevant for the purpose of claiming priority under 35 USC 120, but not for all purposes.
[/quote

Thanks, Isaac.  Sorry, I was using "MPEP" sloppily  to include the appendices.   Regardless, best mode requirement is not explicitly addressed in 35 U.S.C., 37 CFR, or the MPEP proper.  It's still not clear to me what the correct answer to the exam question should be (regardless of whether there is any impact in actual practice).   I am using the Innovita exam simulator disk.  In addition to actual exam sessions, it sorts questions by Chapt and topic.  The Chapt and topic exams do not give the original exam session that the questions came from.  Either the requirement changed at some point, or the patent office changed it's mind on what the answer should be.  Right now, I'm following Longacre's advice:  Put down the answer that the patent office wants, right or wrong (my paraphrase).  Has anyone come across this question in old exams and know which answer is the more recent?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: smgsmc on 06-03-06 at 12:09 pm
Quote

This logic does not hold up.  The MPEP is not part of Title 35 of the US code so what the MPEP says is not relevant.   The conclusion may be correct, but the reasoning is not.


I think the real answer is that best mode does apply but generally has no impact.   I'm not familiar with Racing Strollers v. TRI Industries, and I could not find a free source for the case, but a look at cases citing Racing Strollers suggests that Racing Strollers probably says that best mode is irrelevant for the purpose of claiming priority under 35 USC 120, but not for all purposes.


<I apologize if this response is repeated, but I don't think it posted properly the first time.>

Thanks, Isaac.  Sorry, I was using “MPEP” sloppily to include all the appendices as well.  Regardless, as far as I’m able to find.  best mode requirement is not  explicitly covered in 35 USC, 37 CFR, or MPEP proper.  For now I’m following Longacre’s advice:  Put down the answer that the patent office wants, whether it’s right or wrong (my parapharase).  I’m using the Innovita simulator.  In addition to actual exam sessions, it has practice exams arranged by MPEP chapter and topics.  In these exams, references to the original sessions are not given.  Either the requirement changed at some point, or the patent office changed its mind on what the correct answer should be.  Anyone find the best mode question on old exams and know which answer is the more recent?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: rs_il on 06-03-06 at 04:18 pm
Took the exam today and passed. Seemed fairly straightforward and to the point. Most of the questions are already covered. Took about 45 mins for AM and 30 mins for PM session. Took the rest of the time to revise answers.
If you have a good handle on MPEP and know what chapters to search most answers are verbatim from there.

Few repeats which were quite straight forward.
My studying was quite intensive. Know some one who flunked multiple times so was apprehensive. Answered every question from 1997-2003 exams multiple times. Got 95+ in most cases which prepared me quite well.

Remember MPEP searching is more about the "right search words" than about knowing chapter numbers.  
Best wishes in your studies.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: checkrovisky on 06-03-06 at 05:07 pm
is a preliminary pass really passing ?

how many days does it take to get the letter after the exam?

anyone?


Thanks in advance
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: supranets on 06-07-06 at 01:50 pm
Hi Group,
Is anyone familiar with Prometric test centers in San Francisco, San Jose, Sacramento (Fair Oaks), or Reno?
Thanks.... ;)
Title: Checkrovisky...
Post by: Enalbenroh on 06-09-06 at 08:34 am
A preliminary pass is very very close to a formal pass.  I believe it is the concensus on this board that a prelim is basically equal to a formal pass.

No one on this board (or anywhere else) to my knowledge has prelim. pass results and failing formal results.  We probably would've heard about it if it's happened, especially if it happened to someone who used this board.

It takes just about a week to receive your letter from the PTO.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Han Cho on 06-11-06 at 10:55 pm
I took the exam on Friday in San Jose, CA and passed on the first try. I've studied two months and the total accumulated hours were close to 200. Questions were far more difficult than I expected and there are lots of new questions since 2003. I did not have any information regarding what the latest trend and focus of the questions are. They changed quite a lot.

As many experienced, there were approximately 10 PCT questions, 20-30 old questions. It would be quite challenging to read and answer new questions under stressful circumstances, so I suggest to familiarize old exams (for the past 5 years or so) and answer them immediately without wasting your time. I was able to finish 50 questions in about 2 hours and spent the last hour digging up MPEP and was able to answer some obvious but never studied questions.

My strategy was not to buy any expensive study materials, instead I was wiiling to take several exams if necessary. I was lucky enough to pass on the first try.

Prometric allows you to start the exam as soon as you check in. Arrive early (30 min before the appointment time) and allow sometime to gather your breath. Search takes a long time if you search long chapters such as 700 and 2100.

You can take a break up to an hour or you can continue the afternoon session if you want.

The test center is quite nice and give you a headset, scratch paper and two pencils. The computer monitor has lower resolution so that you often have to scroll down the screen to view the entire answers, but most of the questions were short.

Hope this helps for the soon-to-takers.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Jeff on 06-12-06 at 08:24 am
Han Cho

you said you did NOT buy any study materials?  If i am reading correctly, you are saying you only took old tests and passed?

Please let me know as I was just approved by OED to take the test and I am trying to figure out my study technique.  Thanks
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: koister2001 on 06-12-06 at 12:34 pm
Quote
Han Cho

You said "Questions were far more difficult than I expected "


How so?  Were the questions more detail oriented or just meaner?




I have a new login name.

When I was studying old exams (1999-2003), I noticed that there are typically less than 20% of "new" types of questions, the rest are exactly the same or simple variations of old questions or simple enough to direclty answer by looking up MPEP or CFR. If you see the passing rate of old exams, the highest passing rate was 70% or so, the lowest passing rate was 40% or so. Even the exams of 40% passing rate were easier than the exam I took. It is a subjective opinion so it may not apply to others. Those years, you were able to bring your own note, which I believe was an advantage over the computer exam. On the other side, you can do keyword search the MPEP in the computer exam, which I believe is greater advantage for people like me who did not throughly study MPEP in preparation.

Answering Jeff's question, No, I did not buy any study materials. My preparation was purely based on the old exams and MPEP, 37 CFR and 35 USC. I also bought "Introduction to Patent Law" by Mueller, which I believe is a text book in law school, but haven't had time to read it through.
I wasn't able to convince myself to invest 2-3k on the prep materials.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: jeff on 06-12-06 at 02:51 pm
Quote
I have a new login name.

When I was studying old exams (1999-2003), I noticed that there are typically less than 20% of "new" types of questions, the rest are exactly the same or simple variations of old questions or simple enough to direclty answer by looking up MPEP or CFR. If you see the passing rate of old exams, the highest passing rate was 70% or so, the lowest passing rate was 40% or so. Even the exams of 40% passing rate were easier than the exam I took. It is a subjective opinion so it may not apply to others. Those years, you were able to bring your own note, which I believe was an advantage over the computer exam. On the other side, you can do keyword search the MPEP in the computer exam, which I believe is greater advantage for people like me who did not throughly study MPEP in preparation.

Answering Jeff's question, No, I did not buy any study materials. My preparation was purely based on the old exams and MPEP, 37 CFR and 35 USC. I also bought "Introduction to Patent Law" by Mueller, which I believe is a text book in law school, but haven't had time to read it through.
I wasn't able to convince myself to invest 2-3k on the prep materials.

Hope this helps.

i was debating between your method and buying either the Longacre course or a used PLI; so it is nice to hear it worked for you
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: smgsmc on 06-13-06 at 07:16 am
Quote
i was debating between your method and buying either the Longacre course or a used PLI; so it is nice to hear it worked for you



Hi Jeff,  

Please keep one important deadline in mind:  If you've already been accepted to take the test, you need to take the test within 90 days (the valid dates are given in the acceptance letter).  If you miss the deadline, you will need to re-apply and cough up the $240 fee all over again.  If you haven't even started to study...you will find that 90 days tick away quickly.
Title: Thoughts from recent success
Post by: KB on 06-13-06 at 09:22 am
Having gleaned so much from this board, I thought it only proper for me to post some of my own insights...

I recently took and passed the exam.  For preparation, I did the PLI home course, did lots of old exams, and read this board. (I've also been practicing in this field for a few years, which added familiarity of the general concepts, but certainly didn't do much for the types of low-level details tested.)

My exam strategy was a little different from what many have posted here.  I didn't find the ABCDE column thing to be so helpful to me.  Instead, I used two columns: "MUST look up" and "SHOULD look up".  As I did a first pass through the questions, I did one of three things: 1) Answered it with confidence; 2) placed it in the MUST column if I really had no idea (i.e., there were at least two answers that were equally appealing); 3) placed in the SHOULD column if I had an inkling, but wanted to verify.

On the morning portion, I finished my initial pass after about 1:10.  Saw lots and lots of old questions, including just about all the ones mentioned here (Lancer toothbrush, foil airplane, Spanish phone, clock/lamp, etc.) There were only seven questions in my MUST column, and twelve in my SHOULD column.  I was amazed that the other 31 were so straightforward.  Finished review of those nineteen with about 50 minutes left, so I wound up reviewing other Q's, too.  If I missed even two questions in the morning, they would have been from stupidity (e.g., checking the wrong box inadvertently).

Notables from the morning session: no real PCT stuff.  Lots of RCE + submit IDS after final type Qs.  There was even one interference (client asks attorney to copy claims from an issued patent to provoke interference, but the attorney is on vacation, so it isn't filed until more than 1 year after the patent had issued.  Is it petitionable?)  Also, there was at least one question that must have been a beta: it had answer choices for Smith and for Jones, but no Smith was mentioned in the fact pattern... oops.  And there was a question on third party submissions straight out of MPEP 1134.01.

As easy as the morning session was, the afternoon was that difficult.  Using the same technique, my MUST list was twice as large (14 Qs) and my SHOULD list was about 15.  I barely was able to look all those up before time expired.  Not nearly as many old questions there.  A ton of Reexam questions and appeal questions, with a couple real stumpers (there were two in particular that I simply couldn't find an answer for).  A decent number of PCT questions, too, testing things like 102(e) dates and what happens when a foreigner files a PCT app in the RO/US.

I was very pleased with the PDF searching.  My machine was very very fast at it (unlike my home computer where I'd been practicing).  As a result, I found the following technique extremely useful:  if a question mentioned a particular CFR Rule with which I was not familiar, I'd go to the Index, use Find to look it up, and then go to the corresponding MPEP section and Find it there.  Used this approach several times to get to the right spot very quickly.

I hope some of you find these comments helpful, and that you use them to pass the exam when you take it.  Good luck!
Title: Re: Thoughts from recent success
Post by: guest47 on 06-13-06 at 11:16 am
Quote
As easy as the morning session was, the afternoon was that difficult.  Using the same technique, my MUST list was twice as large (14 Qs) and my SHOULD list was about 15.  I barely was able to look all those up before time expired.  Not nearly as many old questions there.  A ton of Reexam questions and appeal questions, with a couple real stumpers (there were two in particular that I simply couldn't find an answer for).  


That sounds very similar to my experience.  I found the morning easy with a good number of repeats.  After my lunch break I felt pretty confident, but by the time I was midway through the afternoon portion I was getting rather nervous.  I had a multitude of appeal and reexamination questions that were quite difficult.  It seems like the afternoon exam is tending to focus on one or two specific topics in great detail.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: KB on 06-13-06 at 12:19 pm
Quote
How long ago did you two (KB and guest47) take the exam?  


Last week.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: guest47 on 06-13-06 at 01:39 pm
Quote
How long ago did you two (KB and guest47) take the exam?  


I took the exam about 3 weeks ago.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: KB on 06-13-06 at 02:14 pm
Quote
Thanks for your help. I am slated to take the test on friday and am trying to assure myself that I'll be ok.  
Do you have any additional advice for the test?



Nothing really that hasn't been said already.  Just remember that a good night's sleep the night before is much more valuable than a couple extra hours of study.  Really.

Good luck!
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 06-13-06 at 03:08 pm
Quote


Nothing really that hasn't been said already.  Just remember that a good night's sleep the night before is much more valuable than a couple extra hours of study.  Really.

Good luck!


I agree.  "Well rested, well tested!"
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: KDonn on 06-20-06 at 12:37 pm
I took the exam this morning.  The prometric site was beautiful...all new equipment.  Their personnel get a solid "F" from me.  I finished the first half, signed out,  took a half-hour break, and returned to sign-in.  The proctor turned ghost white and said, "ummmm, I thought you were finished, so I closed out your exam."  When it is "closed out" that is it, it cannot be reopened.  Their solution was to allow me to start a new exam.  There were only 6 hours left until they closed, so I would have had to take parts 1 & 2 straight through.  I refused.  

To top it off, today is day 90 of my 90-day window.  To say I am livid is an understatement.  Right now I am waiting for a call from OED to tell me my options.  Nothing in the instructions said I had to inform the proctor that my exam had two parts.  I would have thought that the people administering the exam already knew that.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: KB on 06-20-06 at 04:00 pm
Inexcusable.  I hope you got the proctor's name and contacted his/her supervisor, who should have fired this incompetent soul on the spot.

Also, be sure to write a letter (after you take your exam) to the OED letting them know they may want to revisit their contract with Prometric.

Meanwhile, try to stay calm and focused (yeah, that's easy...).  Keep us posted on how this turns out.  I feel for ya...
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: tlc on 06-21-06 at 08:47 am
I found a similar question on a past exam here is what it said:
Does Best Mode apply to design patents? No, but written description, definiteness and independent claim is necessary.  In Racing Strollers Inc. v TRI industries the Federal Circuit said that for design patents the best mode requirement is not applicable as a design has only one mode, described only by  the illustrations shown.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Alicia Goodman on 06-21-06 at 09:04 am
I found a similar question in my study materials regarding best mode of a deisgn patent.  The explanation to the question stated this:

Does Best Mode apply to design patents? No, but written description, definiteness and independent claim is necessary.  In Racing Strollers Inc. v TRI industries the Federal Circuit said that for design patents the best mode requirement is not applicable as a design has only one mode, described only by  the illustrations shown.  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Joe7451 on 06-23-06 at 03:30 pm
Alright fellas,
I took the exam today in Alexandria and failed it with a 66.  I took PRG and found that most of the morning questions were covered somewhere in the database.  The afternoon was a little different.

There were a lot of reissue, reexam, and PCT questions.  I got Lancer, Spanish phone, Japaneese language, foil airplane, clock/lamp, walking across the street, divisional reissue, VELCRO, and the one about using recombiant DNA to cure hearing loss instead of vision loss (something like that).

I was surprised with the lack of 2100 questions, I think I only opened that chapter twice during the exam.  In the morning there were a lot of 700.

There was one question that I don't remember seeing on the board (though I didn't go through all the posts before I wrote this).  It reads something like:

You represent Joe Blockhead who files a nonprovisional application which claims the benefit of a provisional application.  You recieve a Notice of Allowance and Blockhead decides that he wants to extend the term of his patent and remove the benefit.  How are you necessarily going to enter an amendment to do this?

a) pay the issue fee, then file a RCE with the amendment.
b) Don't pay the issue fee and file a RCE with the amendment.
c) Juggle watermelons (not really, but something out there :))
d) pay the issue fee, then file an the amendment.
e) don't pay the issue fee, and file the amendment.

MPEP 201.11 reads that removing a filing benefit can be done by amendment before the notice of allowance, but this is a matter of grace and not a matter of right.  It's also not on the slew of 'will be rejected' amendments.

RCE Practice will allow an amendment, but is silent on specifically mentioning this one.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: cerass84 on 06-24-06 at 06:03 pm
I failed with a 68 yesterday, does anybody know if a provisional fail takes the experimental questions into account?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: TataBox on 06-24-06 at 06:38 pm
Quote
I took the exam this morning.  The prometric site was beautiful...all new equipment.  Their personnel get a solid "F" from me.  I finished the first half, signed out,  took a half-hour break, and returned to sign-in.  The proctor turned ghost white and said, "ummmm, I thought you were finished, so I closed out your exam."  When it is "closed out" that is it, it cannot be reopened.  Their solution was to allow me to start a new exam.  There were only 6 hours left until they closed, so I would have had to take parts 1 & 2 straight through.  I refused.  

To top it off, today is day 90 of my 90-day window.  To say I am livid is an understatement.  Right now I am waiting for a call from OED to tell me my options.  Nothing in the instructions said I had to inform the proctor that my exam had two parts.  I would have thought that the people administering the exam already knew that.  



I have never heard a story like that before, except stories of taking the california bar and having the room flood or the lights go out when you do not have a flash light.   Extremely sorry to hear that.   I guess you have to just hit it again.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: smgsmc on 06-26-06 at 05:36 am
Quote
I took the exam this morning.  The prometric site was beautiful...all new equipment.  Their personnel get a solid "F" from me.  I finished the first half, signed out,  took a half-hour break, and returned to sign-in.  The proctor turned ghost white and said, "ummmm, I thought you were finished, so I closed out your exam."  When it is "closed out" that is it, it cannot be reopened.  Their solution was to allow me to start a new exam.  There were only 6 hours left until they closed, so I would have had to take parts 1 & 2 straight through.  I refused.  

To top it off, today is day 90 of my 90-day window.  To say I am livid is an understatement.  Right now I am waiting for a call from OED to tell me my options.  Nothing in the instructions said I had to inform the proctor that my exam had two parts.  I would have thought that the people administering the exam already knew that.  


I'm sorry to hear about your experience.  There have been several sad stories of woe here; but, yours, unfortunately, is at the top of the heap.  Once things calm down for you, I do hope you let the proper dept at OED know what a schlock outfit Prometrics is.  I don't know when their contract with OED comes up for renewal, but an associate at OED told me they do keep track of complaints...but of course, people need to notify OED.  Please let us know the outcome.  A six-hour exam is bad enough.  I can't imagine someone going through nine hours.  Besides expiration of your 90-day window, it'll be iteresting whether anyone has the audacity to ask you to shell out more $$.  My sympathies.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: smgsmc on 06-26-06 at 05:52 am
Quote
I failed with a 68 yesterday, does anybody know if a provisional fail takes the experimental questions into account?



Whether a provisional pass/fail consistently maps to an official pass/fail has cropped up several times before.  As far as I can tell, no one has ever reported an inconsistency.  That is, no one who was crying in his beer after a provisional fail popped open a bottle of champagne after receiving his official OED letter.  Conversely, no one savoring a Napoleon brandy after a provisional pass guzzled a Jim-Jones-Kool-Aid special the following week.

Your question does raise a mathematical issue, though.  Since the score is based on 90 questions, the final score should be reported as a percentage.  But I checked the numbers.  For the actual number of correct answers from 55 to 63, if you round up the percentage (correct answers/90) to the next highest integer, you will get the same equivalent point score out of 100 (correct answers/100).

63/90 =  70%
62/90 = ~69%
61/90 = ~68%
....
56/90 = ~63%
55/90 = ~62%

This procedure breaks down if the number of correct answers is 54 or less, but then who cares?  Does anyone know if this is how OED crunches the numbers?
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: Isaac on 06-26-06 at 06:48 am
Quote
This procedure breaks down if the number of correct answers is 54 or less, but then who cares?  Does anyone know if this is how OED crunches the numbers?


I'm not sure I understand the point you are making, but is a score reported at all if you pass?  
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: smgsmc on 06-26-06 at 08:24 am
Quote

I'm not sure I understand the point you are making, but is a score reported at all if you pass?  



From previous posts, if you pass, you don't get an actual score.  Could someone who passed recently please verify this directly?  It just matters that you graduated; graduating summa cum laude buys you nothing.  

If you fail, you get the actual score.  This is helpful.  If you missed by just one or two questions, with some more practice and some luck you probably have a good shot at passing on round 2.  On the other hand, if you missed by 10 or more questions, you have some serious studying to do before round 2.  

The issue with experimental questions is that they usually chew up a lot of time and then count for nothing.  Hypothetically, if you get 72 answers correct (out of 100), but 10 of them are experimental and get trashed, you end up with only 62 correct answers (out of the 90 that count) and fail.  If I have this all screwed up, please chime in, anyone.
Title: Re: New Patent Bar Online Exam - Prometric
Post by: g