Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Mr. Nobody]

Hey, I wanted to share this because there seems to be a lot of negativity on this board toward the USPTO.  In particular, I have been lurking around here for some time and have seen people assert that you will become stuck at the PTO or have a hard time getting interviews, that it isn't that valuable of an experience, etc.

I attended a law school ranked just outside top tier.  The law market is flooded, IMO, and even though patent prosecution does narrow out a lot of competition, job interviews were not exactly falling into my lap.  At the end of my third year of law school I had a job offer to work in criminal prosecution contingent on passing the bar, a job offer at the PTO, and a possibility of a job offer at a very small firm that I had worked for that would definitely be contingent on passing the bar exam.  I could not afford at that point to spend 2.5 months studying for the bar unpaid and then wait three more months knowing that my job was contingent on my results, so I accepted the offer at the PTO.

The PTO is most definitely an experience.  There are lots of people there that you would never want to associate with.  There are people there that cannot speak fluent english and don't know how to use a computer.  In my opinion, the PTO is like most things in life: it is what you make out of it.  When I started I had passed the patent bar and had about 4 IP courses in law school.  Even from that starting point, I know that I did learn a fair amount at the PTO.  Basically you learn how the office works, and how an examiner will view the claims that you draft.  The benefit of the job in terms of learning definitely hits a plateau at 6 months or even before.

While at the PTO I studied for and passed the VA bar exam, I just recieved my results about two weeks ago.  While waiting for my results, I sent my resume out to only a few places based on job postings I had found, and through the AIPLA job fair.  During my third year of law school I had tried to participate in the AIPLA job fair, and didn't recieve a single interview despite having passed the patent bar.  With the PTO on my resume and my cover letter stating that I was awaiting VA bar exam results, I recieved every interview that I was qualified for (the ones I didn't get said they preferred portable business, or preferred EE degree, etc.)  These firms were all in the top 25 in terms of patents prosecuted per year, as ranked by IP Today.  A couple of them said they wanted 2 years of experience, and didn't state whether they meant PTO or law firm, and I got the interview having between 1 and 2 years at the PTO.  I have an job offer now at a firm that I am happy with.

So in summation, my experience at the PTO was positive and I definitely believed it helped me.  If you go to a top 20 or top 30 law school, this probably isn't relevant to you.  If you are in a situation like mine where your law school pedigree is fairly good to mediocre and interviews aren't falling into your lap, I think the PTO is a good avenue to break into the market.  If you can walk into an interview and come across as a normal person, and you can pass a state bar while you are working at the PTO, I doubt that you will become stuck there as some people try to assert.  There may be many firms that view PTO experience as a negative, but of course there are many firms that only recruit out of top 10 law schools.  Point being that there are medium to large size firms in the DC-NOVA area that apparently view PTO experience as a plus. 

[patentdude]

This is great news. I knew this is how it is. Mr. Nobody, how about passing a state bar prior to going to the PTO? Does the PTO look down upon passing a state bar before starting employment, or do they just not care?

[Wolfcastle]

There may be many firms that view PTO experience as a negative, but of course there are many firms that only recruit out of top 10 law schools.

I was always of the impression that a few years of PTO experience isn't a negative, but an extended stay at the office raises many red flags for firms. 

[nypatentlaw]

very helpful, thanks for sharing.  if others have a similar track (joined PTO AFTER law school), please share more experiences...

What is an appropriate timeline for making a transition from PTO to firms?  ie. how much time should one stay at the PTO before successfully applying for firm jobs, and at what point does your time at the PTO become detrimental to getting a job at a firm?

I also don't understand why working for the PTO would not be valuable experience for any firm looking to hire someone with prosecution experience.  It seems that the PTO ought to be the best training ground for this.  I am not suggesting that USPTO examiners will make the best prosecutors, but there is a difference between someone on an examiner track (ie. non-lawyer with technical degree and limited communication skills who is making a career out of being an examiner), and the lawyer who doesn't a top school and stellar grades to get into the better IP firms and can pick up on PTO experience pretty quickly...

thanks all for sharing...

[nypatentlaw]

btw, thanks for starting this thread, Mr. Nobody... this is distinct from "working at the USPTO" and I think much of the negative thoughts appear on that thread.  I would be very interested in knowing more experiences from people who are not making a career at the USPTO, but rather using as an alternative route for getting into a firm. 

I have noticed that some firms also pay a nice bonus for associate hires who have the patent bar registration.

[wannabe]

There may be many firms that view PTO experience as a negative, but of course there are many firms that only recruit out of top 10 law schools.

I was always of the impression that a few years of PTO experience isn't a negative, but an extended stay at the office raises many red flags for firms. 

Yeah, I was surprised to see this too.  What firms view PTO experience as a negative?  I'm at a BIGFLAW firm that would love to have more associates with PTO experience.  Also, I'm from a top 15 law school and I can say without hesitation that if patent prosecution is what you want, doing a stint at the PTO with even a tier 3 law school degree will yield far more interviews than a top 10 (like me) with none.

[patentdude]

Wannabe - get out of here. You are totally making your post up. Having a degree from a top 15 school will beat out PTO experience. That is not to say that PTO experience won't land you something - but your post is completely untrue.

[wannabe]

Also, this may be because of the poor economy, but here's an n=1 anecdote (always the best, right?).  Less than 4 months ago we offered a law school grad from a decent, but not so awesome, law school (think American U.) a second year salary (was $175k/yr at the time, but we recently dropped to $160k).  She declined.  She had just over 5 years of experience at the PTO and went to law school part-time.  She was then "hotelling" at the PTO and lived near NY.  I'm not sure what hotelling is or how it is done.  Making nearly $140k/yr with her bonuses, which we confirmed.

I was shocked she declined, and of course our managing partner called to find out which firm's offer she decided to accept, and she said that she was staying with the PTO.  She may have been playing us to find out if we would bump it up to 3rd yr associate level for her experience.  Or she may have really thought making $140k and doing a job she was good at was worth the stay?  Who knows.  I wish she had come on board.

[wannabe]

Wannabe - get out of here. You are totally making your post up. Having a degree from a top 15 school will beat out PTO experience. That is not to say that PTO experience won't land you something - but your post is completely untrue.

A top 15 school will definitely beat out PTO experience for anything except for patent prosecution experience.  I graduated from Georgetown with no patent pros experience, and got into a good biglaw firm.  But several of my fellow first years worked at the PTO and graduated from 2nd/3rd tier schools.  They would not be at my firm without PTO experience.  True story.

[wannabe]

BTW, I would genuinely like to know how a person with a BS in EE with just over 5 years at the PTO makes almost $140k.  Can anyone answer this?  I've looked at the starting salaries at the PTO and they hover around $70k.  But I don't understand the GS levels or all of the different bonuses/overtime available to PTO Examiners.  Can someone in the know shed some light on that?  Although our pathetic "HR" department confirmed the above examiner's salary, I still don't believe that's possibly right.

[mk1023]

BTW, I would genuinely like to know how a person with a BS in EE with just over 5 years at the PTO makes almost $140k.  Can anyone answer this?  I've looked at the starting salaries at the PTO and they hover around $70k.  But I don't understand the GS levels or all of the different bonuses/overtime available to PTO Examiners.  Can someone in the know shed some light on that?  Although our pathetic "HR" department confirmed the above examiner's salary, I still don't believe that's possibly right.

Five years is enough to make primary and get GS-14 money (107854+). The overtime rate at that level is 51.64+ per hour. 12 hours of overtime per week at that level is enough to make $140k. Examiners have laptops which enables them to claim overtime at home. If you work efficiently, your "overtime" at home could consist of you watching TV with the laptop turned on.

[wannabe]

BTW, I would genuinely like to know how a person with a BS in EE with just over 5 years at the PTO makes almost $140k.  Can anyone answer this?  I've looked at the starting salaries at the PTO and they hover around $70k.  But I don't understand the GS levels or all of the different bonuses/overtime available to PTO Examiners.  Can someone in the know shed some light on that?  Although our pathetic "HR" department confirmed the above examiner's salary, I still don't believe that's possibly right.

Five years is enough to make primary and get GS-14 money (107854+). The overtime rate at that level is 51.64+ per hour. 12 hours of overtime per week at that level is enough to make $140k. Examiners have laptops which enables them to claim overtime at home. If you work efficiently, your "overtime" at home could consist of you watching TV with the laptop turned on.

If 12hrs/wk overtime + 37.5 hrs = 49.5hrs/wk makes $140k at the PTO, then she probably made the right choice.  I had no idea they could make that much.  I can't remember a week I billed less than 60 hours.  My personal target is 65.  My bonus was $3.5k last year, with no pay increase.  Some in my class went down in pay.

[wannabe]

Getting back to my original question though.  Which firms view PTO experience as a negative?  I've never heard of that.  The only time we view it as a negative is if they have less than 2 years, because the assumption here is they couldn't make the cut.

[IP_Dude]

btw, thanks for starting this thread, Mr. Nobody... this is distinct from "working at the USPTO" and I think much of the negative thoughts appear on that thread.  I would be very interested in knowing more experiences from people who are not making a career at the USPTO, but rather using as an alternative route for getting into a firm. 

I have noticed that some firms also pay a nice bonus for associate hires who have the patent bar registration.

Hello all-

I'm very new to this board as you can tell from my overwhelming number of posts to this point.  Anyway, I feel compelled to share my particular path to getting into a patent law firm via the PTO.  First let me apologize if this post turns out to be extremely verbose--I will try and be succinct.

I have, what some view in the patent world, one of those valuable EE degress.  Although, I'm not sure how valuable it is at this point, I've been told by a few of my IP profs and others in the IP field that I should be in good shape if I can get out of law school with decent grades.

Here's where things go terribly bad.  After working in the semiconductor industry for 10+ years as a process engineer and then later as an equipment engineer, I decided to go to law school to become a patent attorney.  At that time, I had no idea if I would focus in on the prosecution side or the litigation side.  Anyway, I had a terrible LSAT score and found myself at a 4th-tier school in the Midwest.  Oh, it gets better.  After a year and a half of "hanging" on (my grades are very mediocre), and being treated like I have an incurable disease by law firms at the Patent Law interview program in Chicago (two years in a row now)--I can see that my EE degree and my experience got me "noticed," but not much else.  I can only conclude that I'm being treated that way because I'm attending a 4th-tier school AND because my grades are poor.  I was able to land several interviews in Chicago for one of those coveted paid summer internships--but sadly, no offers ever materialized.  That's when I began to see the writing on the wall, as well as my law school debt begin to pick up speed!

Figuring that I could probably only graduate in the top half of my class (if I'm lucky), I applied for a position at the PTO.  I kept hearing from my profs and others in the IP field that firms are interested in individuals who show significant commitment to this specific field of law.  At the same time, my profs absolutely did their best to dissuade me from leaving school to spend any time at the PTO.  They assured me that if I picked up my grades, my EE degree and experience would surely gain me entrance into the field of patent law.  Long story short (I know it's too late), I left school to take a position as an examiner at the PTO.  I've been off school for a couple of terms now and will resume part-time beginning in January.  Yes, I will be commuting to and from Michigan from Northern Virginia to finish up my J.D. as a weekend student.

I decided to take this job at the PTO because of my mediocre grades.  I figured I could get 2+ years of PTO experience while finishing up my degree, pass the patent bar (taking it Nov. 14th), and then hopefully gain employment as a patent attorney.  I've been told by a few patent attorneys that spending longer than 4 years at the PTO could be detrimental to my goal of becoming a patent attorney.  I'm told 2-4 years is ideal--so that's what I'm shooting for.  I certainly don't want to become institutionalized by staying at the PTO too long.

Anyway, this is my solution to try and overcome mediocre grades and the fact that I'm attending a 4th-tier law school.  I don't know if I even have a realistic chance once I get my J.D., but I figure passing the patent bar and working at the PTO will definitely show my commitment to working in the patent law field.  If anyone out there thinks differently--I would definitely love to hear from you.

I'm really glad that this board exists.  And I'm just as exuberant that Mr. Nobody started this particular thread.  Because it seems like examiners get a lot of crap from attorneys out there.  I'm trying to disabuse myself of all the negativity surrounding the fact that I work at the PTO--but it's extremely difficult at times.  English is my first language, and I'm a fairly sociable person--so I think I'm in the minority at the PTO.  There are definitely a lot of "strange" or I should say "different" people that examine patents for a living.  I really don't see myself doing this type of work under these stressful constraints for an extended period of time.  I just want to get my J.D. and then bail out if I can.

Thanks for allowing me to share my "sob" story.  I just wanted people out there to know that there are people like me who are "hanging" on in order to have the opportunity to practice patent law.  I know it won't be easy--but I'm definitely committed to achieving this goal and will work my fingers to the bone in order to make it make it come true!  Working at the PTO has solidified my interest and passion for the field of patent law--that is for sure.

[patentdude]

WOW IP_Dude, this is an incredible story. I think you'll be fine. Along with Mr. Nobody, I know someone else who went to the PTO after getting their law degree, without passing the bar, took the bar while at the PTO and then later found a prosecution job.

In any case, what is so wrong with staying at the PTO? After a few years you'll get better with examining once you know the prior art better. After 5 years you'll be banking with lots of job security. You'll find the pressure of time constraints pretty much at any prosecution law firm job you take anywhere - it's everywhere.