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[mouns]

huskerdooo thanks, I understand where you were going with this.

[BotchedExperiment]

Still Studying, I was kidding. I was attempting to portray an unreasonably emotional reaction to your statement. I'm a very funny man.

But I definitely think the person at the PTO who told you to include court fees is full of it.

To me, it's the same as an examiner who might say something over the phone like, "Look, 101 says you can't patent microorganisms, so all your claims are rejected."?

We are not bound (mostly) by what some PTO employee *Thinks* the laws or the rules say.  We're only bound by what the laws and rules actually say.

[chameleon17]

Quick question for anyone kind enough to reply.  If the speeding tickets were eventually disputed and no fault was found, they would still have to be listed, correct? Based on the language appearing on the application, it would appear that they would have to be listed and then I would have to explain the situation. What about documentation? I don't have anything form the court in my possession.

[still_studying]

B.E., I thought the legal-ish phrasing of my reply would alert you to the fact that I fully intend to sue for the emotional distress that your reply caused me, er, I mean that I was too. 

Quick question for anyone kind enough to reply.  If the speeding tickets were eventually disputed and no fault was found, they would still have to be listed, correct?

Yep, that's what OED told me.

What about documentation? I don't have anything form the court in my possession.

OED told me to write to the court (and save a copy of my letter to show to OED), and ask for any information they may have (which must then be sent to OED along with my letter).

[chameleon17]

Thanks, s_s.  I had a feeling that filling out this application was going to be too easy, especially now that I moved 450 miles away and I can't go to the court in person.

[4LegsGood]

Woo hooo!!

So last Wednesday, I think I sent in an about 30 page document with Exhibits A-I explaining everything, and today I got my letter of acceptance to take the exam!

So basically Answering YES about the 4 tickets delayed my application 3-4 weeks, and I spent about 15-20 hours probably getting everything together.

I'll spell everything out so people know what I sucessfully did:

1. I have received 4 traffic violations that I can remember in my life spanning 20-5 years ago. One 20 years ago was speeding, One 12 years ago was an illegal turn, one 7 years ago was speeding, one 5 years ago was speeding. When I filed my application I didn't think I had any records of any of these violations.

2. I turned in my application on March 21, and checked YES on question 16. I provided a copy of a 7 year DMV record which came up clean and a short statement about the 4 incidents, essentially saying in each case: "Around X date I received a ticket for Y and paid the fee. I have no records of the event."

3. On April 1, I received "Notice of Incompleteness and Denial of Admission" from the OED, stating that I didn't provide all my documentation (form letter). I called OED and left a message asking if I was actually supposed to account for these tickets. I got a call back a couple days later essentially saying "yes", but by then I had figured out a bit more about how to go about this (thanks to this board!).

4. I managed to find a copy of one ticket, which turned out to be only a $50 fine. I contacted a department in Connecticut to get information on another (Centralized Infractions Bureau), and they faxed me a copy of the citation and my payment receipt. I then went to the courthouse where the other two tickets would have been dealt with, and filled out forms to request copies of the documents (I had no case number, so they did a date/name search). I made sure to photocopy the forms. Two days later the courthouse produced stamped statments saying they looked for my documents but didn't find anything.

5. I then wrote a 4 page long statment explaining sections a-h of all four of the violations. I created Exhibit pages where I placed the records or notice of lack of records for each incident. I provided a photocopy of the $50 ticket, but no  other documentation and explained that as it wasn't within the guidelines, I wasn't providing any other documentation on that incident. On the one >$100 ticket I did have information on, I provided a copy of the cover letter from the fax from the Centralized Infractions Bureau to verifiy that I had made the request (It stated "per your request" there), the ticket, their receipt and a cancelled copy of the check that I had written to pay for the ticket. For the two without records available, I provided copies of my requests for the documents and a copy of the document that the court produced saying they didn't have anything. Essentially, I made sure to answer everything no matter how silly sounding in order to at least be complete. The total document I submitted was 26 pages long. I sent it with a Certificate of Mailing by Priority Mail.

6. On April 24 they sent me a reply which I received on April 25 (they must get special mail service!) stating that I can take the exam.

So, there it is, basically I think this whole thing is designed to test your love of beurocracy! If you don't love paperwork, you're not qualified to be a patent agent.

Welcome to stampy town! Population Five!

David

[huskerdooo]

Congrats David.

Can I asked how you got a 7 year DMV record from CT?  I need to get one and they told me that it only goes back 3 years for regular violations.  Thanks

[BotchedExperiment]

Huskerdoo,

1) Symantics matter.  Most states I talked to have some sort of 'driver record' that only goes back as far as their driving "points" system takes to clear a ticket, usually 2-3 years.  In addition they usually have a 'driver history' that goes further back.  In one state, this is intuitively called a "vehicle history."  No, really.

2) Keep calling and keep asking.  In one state I wound up called the DMV 3 times because the state's website said something, and the person I talked to on the phone said another.  I eventually got 3 different answers to the question, "how far back do your records go.

3) Ask other states in which you've held licenses.  The state I live in now has records of a couple tickets I got 11 years ago when I held a driver license from another state. AND the other state didn't have any records.

Just a little anecdote for fun:  The state DMV didn't have the amount of the fine for a ticket I got about 8 years ago, so I called the District Court that has jurisdiction.  They couldn't find the records I was looking for but found record of a ticket that I had completely forgotten about, which I got about 4 years ago.  I got the 'failure to obey a traffic sign' ticket at a University that has its own police force, but apparantly they don't report the tickets they give out to the DMV!

[huskerdooo]

I have called the CT DMV a couple of times and have gotten different answers.  The latest person at DMV told me that the report I get is a hybrid.  Generally the driver history is for 3 years for most minor violations.  DUI's, Hit and Runs etc can still show up on the record for 7 to 10 years depending upon the violation.  So, the so-called 3-year report will be a maximum 10 year report depending upon the situation.   

I was wondering where Dave had gotten his info from and if there was any statement to that effect, or if there was anything in writing that implicitly stated what is included.  Title 14 of CT's statutes calls for expunging of minor violations after 5 years, but there is nothing stating a minimum period for retention.

[4LegsGood]

I was wondering where Dave had gotten his info from and if there was any statement to that effect, or if there was anything in writing that implicitly stated what is included.  Title 14 of CT's statutes calls for expunging of minor violations after 5 years, but there is nothing stating a minimum period for retention.

Hey Huskerdoo,

I actually didn't contact the Connecticut DMV. When I got the 7 year DMV report I mentioned, it was from California, where my other tickets were from.

To get the Connecticut information, I completely skipped the DMV and contacted the Centralized Infractions Bureau (CIB), which is a Judicial Branch (apparently!). They had the information and were able to pull it up for me in just a couple minutes, even though the officer who cited me spelled my name wrong, so at first glance she couldn't find it, but she was able to look it up by my driver's license number. My guess is the CIB is the "court" where all fine related items are taken care of, so that real courts can focus on serious Connecticut crimes which would more reasonably be required to be reported to the OED.

Anyway, I actually called the CIB 860-263-2750, talked to someone, and she was very helpful and faxed me enough stuff to satisfy the OED, which, again, was a coversheet saying "Here is the information you requested", a copy of the ticket, and a print out of the receipt for payment. And if they can't find your record, be sure to ask if they can send you a fax saying something to the effect that they were unable to locate the record you requested. That might very well be enough to satisfy the OED.


Let me know if you have any other questions.

David

[huskerdooo]

Thanks Dave.
I just received a letter from the Centralized Infractions Bureau yesterday.  They did not send me what I wanted them to.  I have them all the info I had.. Name, DOB, License number, all addresses, but they did not provide me with a good statement of what is available.  They wanted docket numbers etc.  I had stated in the letter to them that I had no information other than the belief that I had 2 violations.. One 20 years ago and one 25 years ago.  I have no idea where these events occurred.  They told me to go to the court where the infraction was handled.  I guess they didn't understand that I had no other info and that the municipal courts do not have any information that old.  It was the municipal courts that told me to talk to the centralized bureau.  Looks like I am going in circles.

[4LegsGood]

Looks like I am going in circles.

That stinks! I guess that I'd suggest you call the CIB directly and ask them, and then perhaps you could ask that if they don't have the information, whether or not they could send you a letter stating that they didn't have any of the information you requested. I guess it's easier for them to send a form letter to you saying they need more information, than it is for someone to actively not try to help you if they have you on the phone.

From what I've read above on this thread, if you go to OED saying you don't know where you got the tickets they might instruct you to call every disctrict court in Connecticut. That would suck, but realistically, there can't be many, right? It's such a tiny little state!

My guess is that there wasn't a CIB 20 years ago, so they probably don't have the records. The woman I talked to at the CIB didn't think she'd have anything from 5 years ago, but when she looked, she found it.

The next best thing might be to make a best guess as to what area you were in and contact the Superior Court Traffic Division there asking specifically for documents relating to your case. Get as close as you can, and they will likely return to you a statement saying they didn't find anything. My Superior Court here had forms to fill out - just things they Xeroxed with a place to write your name, phone #, Citation #, DOB, date of violation and the charge. I filled out the information I knew - name, phone, date of birth and a one or two month/year window for when I got the citation, and then wrote out why I needed it and if they couldn't find it, could I have verification of that in writing, and that's what I got, and the OED accepted it. So basically, get SOMETHING to send to OED, and send it in. If they don't accept it, you can try to dig deeper. I'm glad they took mine, because it would have taken me God knows how long to dig any deeper.

Good luck, and do what you can in person or on the phone.

David