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[tencelos]

I'm in a hurry to get approved to take the exam by a certain deadline and time is minimal.  The thing is my application was denied for being incomplete because I didn't provide evidence of having taken driving school for some of my speeding tickets.  Now the PTO wants case reports from the court to prove I took driving school, which will take 2-3 weeks, which is time I don't have.

Shouldn't just the tickets + the DMV report be enough?  I can get that all within a day or two, but the person overseeing my application says this is not evidence enough...what should I do?

[mouns]

Tencelos,
where I live, there is the possibility to take attend an 'online driving school' (it is recognized and accridited by I don't how, but it would do, assuming I was in your situation).
Have you taken a look at this possibility? It seems to me you don't have much of a choice.
Good luck.

[BotchedExperiment]

What should you do?  1) Do whatever the PTO tells you.  2) Get the PTO to change their mind on what the're requiring you to do.  You'll never get registered unless you meet their requirements, so start working on getting the paperwork, and make some calls to the PTO to see if you can address their concerns in some other (faster) way or see if you can go ahead and take the test and then work out the ticket issues later.

[4LegsGood]

I cannot believe they're serious about this! They seriously want to know about all the traffic violations I've gotten in my life? I answered Yes to question 16 on the OED enrollment form to be on the safe side, and provided a copy of my DMV report (which came up clean) and a short, mostly informal statement stating that I believed I had received 4 traffic citations in my life, I don't remember when they were nor exactly what they were for and have no records of them.

They responded with an incomplete application form letter, and I have no idea what to do. I went through all my files and found only one ticket (which, as it turns out, had a fine of only $50). I have absolutely no idea what to do now. At least one of these tickets was nigh on 20 years ago, another was over 12 years ago, and the last two were 5-10 years ago. DMV reports are cleared after  7 years, and one of the tickets which might actually still be on a record somewhere, was out of state on the east coast, and I really can't remember which state it was (though I think it was Connecticut - they're so small, it's hard to tell.)

I believe for two of the tickets I attended traffic school, and for two of them I simply paid the fine, but this is a big stretch back to when I was 18 here. I can't recall for certain.

Tencelos, how did you find out how to get case reports on Driving School. Who the heck still has these records? Who did you contact at the PTO? My form letter was signed by a Legal Assistant, and I'm not sure if that's the person handling my case, or simply someone who sends out the documents. I'm not in as much of a hurry as you are, but I'd like to get this out of the way so I can focus on studying!

Any help would be much appreciated.

David

[tencelos]

Mouns,
I have already taken care of the tickets, my problem is providing the proof that I have

BotchedExperiment,
I have already requested the required materials, but I was wondering if someone had any experience either (1) changing the PTO's mind on requirements, or (2) submitting different documents for speeding tickets than I am currently requested to do (this will give me an idea of whether my complaints hold any water).  I tried suggested taking the test and then dealing with the paperwork, no go, won't approve me till I submit the info.

dnvillalpando,
It's the courts that issued the tickets that have the case reports.  The DMV doesn't have proof of driver's classes, just the DMV Report (according  to someone on the phone, I am still going to go to a branch office on Monday).  You or anyone can go to the court and request the case reports, as they are public, and will take  (in my case at least) 2-3 weeks to get and they'll call you when they come in.  The case reports include everything that's happened in conjunction with the citation - payments, driver's classes, the original citation, etc.  Also, the person signing my letter is the one in charge of my case, so I'm guessing the same applies to yours.  You should give him/her a call a the phone number listed.

[horsechute]

"I cannot believe they're serious about this!"

As I have said before, how would you like to work for an organization day in, day out, where your future ability to get registered is always on the line with nonsense like this, and bad labor relations where supervisors are willing to get even with their subordinates by attempting to prevent them from getting registration numbers? I know it is true, because I have seen it happen to others.

[mouns]

This brings a question to mind: what happens once you are registered and say you do something really bad? Can you lose your registration as agent?

[BotchedExperiment]

Tencelos and the rest of us dealing with this issue:

I'm sure you've looked at this, but just in case you haven't, the below is a cut/paste from the instructions for what to do if you answer "yes" or "no" but then you try to provide some explanation as to why "no" is the correct answer.

As is typical with the PTO, they only want findings of fact, and they don't allow any wiggle-room.  If you can't comply with *each* of items a-h below, you are going to have an incomplete application.  Some of items a-h have multiple items with which the applicant must be in compliance. Period.  Ouch.

The following is from http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/grb.pdf

In answering questions 15 through 22, even when answering no and providing an explanation, you must provide a detailed statement setting forth all relevant facts and dates regarding any such response eliciting disclosure. A complete application would include (a) a full explanation in writing of the details regarding the incident, including where you were, and what you were doing, etc.; (b) identification of the law enforcement authority that issued the citation, which jurisdiction issued the bench warrant, and which jurisdiction rectified the situation; (c) a statement of the charges, and the disposition of the charges; (d) a statement of the sanctions that were imposed and a full explanation whether and how you complied with the sanctions; (e) a complete copy of all documents and records in connection with the incident as well as documentation of your request for such records; (f) a complete copy of all court records/file in connection with the incident and documentation of your request for such records; (g), in the case of a federal debt, a complete copy of all records showing satisfaction of the debt, or a new payment arrangement coupled with satisfactory performance in compliance with the new arrangement over an extended period of time ,and (h) a complete copy of records showing the sanctions, your compliance with sanctions, and your request for such records. If you are not able to obtain copies of all relevant documents, you must nonetheless provide documentation showing your request for such documents as well as any letter received responsive to such a request for documents or records. An application that does not include all the information will be treated as incomplete and the applicant will not be admitted to the examination, but will be given a reasonable period of time to complete their application.

[BotchedExperiment]

So, Tencelos, if you feel that you've complied with items a-h of the instructions you should draft a letter where you demonstrate by findings of fact that you complied. 

For example:

"My darling PTO,
Instructions in PTO form 158 require...below are findings of fact that demonstrate I am in complience with....etc, at nauseum.

Item (a) requires a full exlanation for each incidence.  On pages x,y,and z of my original application, and reproduced here as pages A,B, and C I give a full explanation of each incidence...."

And go through each requirement referring to each piece of data you submitted.

Otherwise, I don't think you'll be able to get around it.

[pto_newbie]

Examiners have to submit to a low-level federal investigation of their background by outside federal investigators (not sure which goverment department). This investigation is about your citizenship, credit, criminal, past employment, school attendance, references, and where you lived. The examiner is required to sign authorization forms so they can investigate your medical and mental health background. Also, the investigators come to the PTO, and interview the examiner.

Before examiners can start working they are given a fingerprint document, and they are required to be fingerprinted by the PTO, or a police agency, and turn that document into the PTO.

Though, unlike what has been said above, the investigation only goes back 7 years for some stuff, and 5 years for other stuff. Like, your background criminal investigation goes back 7 years, and the investigation of where you have lived goes back 5 years. So, the investigation forms an examiner signs prior to be interviewed by the federal investigator(s) asks specific questions like, "Have you committed a felony in the last 7 years?". So, if I had committed a felony eight years ago, then I would not be required to report it.

It is interesting to read that you are required to report your entire history of traffic tickets.

[horsechute]

"This brings a question to mind: what happens once you are registered and say you do something really bad? Can you lose your registration"

Sure.

[mouns]

And here I have one more question. Most people focus on speeding ticket. What about other tickets?
Red light?
Parking?
I personally had one ticket, my registration had expired and I had to renew it. So I got a $10 ticket. I went to court though, plead guilty, provided registration proof, and paid $10. That was it.
So do I have to disclose this along with all the document (a-h) mentioned above?
I thought that exam was the hard part. Between my immigration issues and all this ticket stuff, I am not sure if it is harder to pass the exam or to sit for it.

Thank you.

[4LegsGood]

So I got a $10 ticket.

Oooh you're lucky! The question says you can exclude traffic violations for which the fine was less than $100! So should be golden so long as an expired registration "counts" as a traffic violation.

These days, though, just about any ticket is >$100. My co-worker just got a seatbelt ticket that ran $106! My wife recently got stuck in an intersection on a red light and got a ticket for $450! The fees are rediculous, almost as rediculous as having to report and account for them while registering for the Patent Bar.

David

P.S. One of my 4 was for making an illegal left turn. I *think* that one cost me $250, which didn't include traffic school, which was another $150 or so.

Edit: correcting on traffic violation v. registration

[huskerdooo]

Has anyone had any luck gaining access to the test without any pertinent documentation or event details?

I had 2 tickets 20+ years ago.  I plan on providing event details (rough years estimate of speeding ticket infraction speed) plus my request and response from the DMV regarding how long they keep details.

[4LegsGood]

Has anyone had any luck gaining access to the test without any pertinent documentation or event details?

I had 2 tickets 20+ years ago.  I plan on providing event details (rough years estimate of speeding ticket infraction speed) plus my request and response from the DMV regarding how long they keep details.

This is exactly what I did when I turned in my applicaiton, and it came back incomplete. What a royal pain! I'm wondering now if the traffic tickets are perhaps not "violations", but rather "infractions". I'm not a lawyer, but while perusing the Connecticut DNV site, they describe infractions as NOT being violations, which *might* exempt their inclusion from Question 16. They may not, though, so to play it safe, it's still probably best to answer yes to 16.

But in answer to your question, no, it doesn't seem like the rough estimates are enough to satisfy the OED's voracious appetite for paperwork.

Bleh!

David