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[ab]

I'm interested in a patent law career (currently waiting for acceptance status from law schools) and would appreciate input about the LLM degree.  I am considering studying law at nights at a T4 school (Suffolk) while working as a tech spec and, eventually, patent agent.  (I'm also considering the full-time law school route at top/mid schools but may go nights for financial reasons.)  I have been told that I may have decent job prospects in my city/region but that I might have a tough time anywhere else.  Would an LLM in IP law a few years down the line from a top-20 school significantly improve my non-local prospects (and my career ceiling), or would I permanently be regarded as a T4 grad?  I should mention that I have a MSEE from a top engineering school as well as 7 yrs work experience in electrical engineering.

Other questions: For patent attorneys, how valuable/important is the IP LLM?  I plan to concentrate in IP for the JD anyway.  How long after the JD to people typically wait before getting the LLM? Do firms typically pay for their associates to get an LLM?

Thanks in advance for any answers to my (numerous) questions.

[horsechute]

AB,
This one is easy.
Your MSEE should serve you very well in the job market. I thought an LLM always came after the JD, but maybe I am wrong. At any rate, forget the LLM. I don't know about the agent route, since I never did it myself, but most people on the other blogs seem to say that they don't like being pushed around by attorneys, although some say it is ok. I was an examiner for many years, and noticed there is either no difference between an agents and an attorneys work, or very little difference. Either go get a JD full or part time, or be a full time agent. Forget the LLM. I hope you will get the JD. Whether you go full or part time I can't tell you what to do. Some people go full time their first year then part time later. With your marketable skill set, part time either the whole or last 2/3 years is probably best, and you will get to draft applications, and it will be a little relief from the crazy grade pressure in law school. I don't want to preach, but over the long haul you have to make sure you look after your health. Hope my answer is not too long winded. Best wishes whatever you decide.
Horse Chute

[plex]

I don't think the LLM will be worth the time and effort you will have to put into it, and I think any degree you get, really should be worth the time and effort you put into it. I have not had any experience with getting an LLM, but I do have a BSEE and halfway through 1L. Most of the attorney profiles I have looked at, don't have an LLM. What they did do though, was get good grades in law school, any work experience they could get, and passed the patent bar. Do what it takes to get at least fairly good grades, while looking around for some sort of part-time work you can do while in law school, clerkships/internships/summer associate positions.

The best option is going to school first year full time, with no work, then switch. The first year is special, in that the curve is the most harsh at that time, scholarship opportunities may be available depending on how you do, you will likely have some sort of extremely time intensive writing course and on top of that, you will be dealing with a very different learning style. If you do have a scholarship, it is very possible to lose it, especially at a lower tier school.

[biopico]

LLM=Master of Laws

To get into LLM, you need JD first. 

[bcapehart]

Before you decide whether to obtain an LL.M., you should ask yourself why one is needed and where you would like to obtain it.

I have an LL.M. in IP and it has been a very much worth it.  I obtain it from The John Marshall Law School in Chicago.  The JMS IP-LLM program is directed toward the working attorney, as the classes are typically held at night or over a 3-day weekend, etc.  The teaching faculty consisted of mostly practicing attorneys and Federal Judges, including heads of IP departments from prominent corporations (domestic and international) and partners from various law firms, including Mark Banner, who recently passed away (http://www.patentlyo.com/patent/2008/01/remembering-mar.html).

I was able to practice as a patent attorney while at at the same time was able augment my knowledge by being able to study under some very experienced individuals in their fields.  It did take a few years to complete, however, to this day, I have been able to keep up with quite a number of my classmates and instructors, which has provided me with a good network of contacts.

Other LL.M. programs are more traditional in that they hold classes all day and complete the program in an academic year.  I would consider all options before making a final decision. 

Let me know if you have any other questions.
Brent

[ab]

Thanks all for the posts.  This is a great forum, and I appreciate all the info available here.  It is good to learn about these issues (like LLM) well in advance, even though I will first have to do well in law school.

[Tim]

Pass the patent bar while you are in law school.  Period.  Once you do that it makes, it easier to get a job on graduation, and you can use it as a lever to get internships at big firm.

[horsechute]

very true.

[dovn]

Hi ab,

I have a similar background as you.  I have a MSEE and 5 years experience.  A little over a year ago I was trying to make the same decision as you.  I thought about keeping my job while going to a T4 evening law school.  However, in the end I opted to go full time to a T2 school.  I can tell you without a doubt, your MSEE degree is extremely valuable in the legal world right now.  While most 1L students don't get paying summer jobs, I had more interviews than I could attend and several offers from top firms.  Many of the offers were on the spot.  Most of the interviewers didn't even care about my law school grades.  I took a summer position at a very prestigious firm and have already started working for them part time which more than covers all of my expenses.

While my experience may be unique, my suggestion would be don't worry about a LLM right now and if at all possible, go full time to a decent school.  You will be surprised how quickly you can start earning good money.  I also suggest that you pass the patent bar before  starting law school.  While its not required, I did pass it before school and it seemed to impress everyone that interviewed me.

Good luck in whatever you decide!

[ab]

dovn (or anyone else that cares to respond), thanks much for your input, and I am interested to know more about the summer job issue, because if I knew I could get a high-paying summer job I'd probably go for a higher-ranked school.  I am planning to take the patent bar in a couple of months (thank you to Tim & horsechute who also posted along these lines), so hopefully that will help like you suggest.  What is typically asked on a summer interview for MSEE candidates -- technical EE questions on topics like circuits/devices/signal processing, more general non-technical discussion, or (for those who passed the patent bar, like I am hoping to) legal questions?

Thanks to all for your valuable suggestions.

[dovn]

Hi ab,

The general rule is that you don't get a paying job at a large law firm (the high paying ones - $160k/yr) your first year/summer unless you have good contacts, are at a highly ranked law school, or have really excellent grades.  Sometimes you need to have some combination of all three.  Most first year law students either take summer classes, work for judges or volunteer some where the summer after their first year.  Typically, mostly second year law students are hired at these large firms for the summer and then again you either need to be attending a highly ranked law school or be highly ranked in your class.  Apparently an MSEE and real world experience is really sought after right now as I had no contacts, I am not at a highly ranked schools and most of the law firms didn't even ask about my law school grades (they did request undergrad and graduate grades).  While I don't think you can know you will get a high-paying summer job, it is definitely possible and I wouldn't be surprised at all if you got a job similar to mine.

As for the interviews, I wasn't asked a single technical, legal, or patent related question.  The questions were more like "Why this firm?" or "Why become a lawyer?" or the difficult one "What questions do you have for me?".  I think the purpose of all my interviews were just to see if I would get along with the people.  Actually, many of the interviews seemed more like I was interviewing them instead of the other way around.

[Tim]

You’ve got to consider that you’re spending money to get the LLM.  You’re also spending time when you could be working and making money. 

Even if you don’t find a job right away, you can find some way to make money as soon as you pass the bar.  You can get a job at a small/midsize place for 80-100K per year and then jump to a bigger firm after a year if they don’t give you more money.  Also, once you pass the bar, you can temp at 8-12K per month.  Check out theposselist.com.  For all practical purposes, once you’ve passed the bar, if you want to work, you can find it.  Also, don’t get too stressed out about having stellar qualifications, there’s plenty of small/midsize firms around that will accept less.  Not everyone graduates from Yale, Berkley or Harvard.  Don’t be fooled into thinking the only patent jobs are at big firms.  Plus, it’s not that hard to land a job.  The 10% of the people that can’t get a job (generally due to poorly written resumes/interpersonal skills) or hold one down (due to the inability to write simple patents) do about 90% of the complaining.

With regard to finding a job, use martindale-hubble to find the small/midsize firms that do patents, call the firm and find out who the hiring partner is.  Send the resume to him/her.  Do it to all the small/midsize firms that you find.  Also, don’t forget the value of networking to find a job.  Find out if the bar you’ll be  a member of has an IP section.  If so, go to ALL the meetings that they have.  Sending out a large volume of resumes/cover letters to the right people coupled with networking yields results.