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Author Topic: MGM v. Grokster  (Read 5566 times)

Isaac

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Re: MGM v. Grokster
« Reply #15 on: 08-27-04 at 04:18 pm »

Quote

Instead, the burden of enforcement is limited to direct infringement, meaning that copyright owners have to pursue thousands of individuals. If you are the RIAA you may have the financial means to do this, but it makes the cost of enforcement for new competitors to the RIAA prohibitive. And indivudual copyright owners can just forget about it.

A small box around direct infringement seems to me to only further entrench the RIAAs monopoly.


That's a very interesting argument.   One could also argue that even if the little guy's work is not being infringed, he is going to find it hard to compete if the RIAA's stuff is available free.

I have mixed feelings about how much help the public owes to authors to help them police copyright infringement.  For other types of IP with the exception of some help with imports and exports, we pretty much expect the right holder to locate infringers and to sue them.   It seems to me that the tools for protecting digital material are already in place (DRM with the DMCA to make sure that the DRM isn't circumvented).    Not only that, but
I just read where the RIAA managed to locate and sue a large number of infringers.

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JimIvey

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Re: MGM v. Grokster
« Reply #16 on: 08-30-04 at 01:31 pm »

Quote
Moreoever, these court decisions have taken us in exactly the wrong direction. File sharing would perhaps be better accomplished using a Napster type architecture where "someone" is responsible for the integrity of the content.


Now, I find that suggestion downright scary.  Perhaps we should require registration and cataloging and archiving of every usenet post so that "someone" can later be held accountable.  Perhaps we should archive every e-mail every sent by anyone and provide copies to the RIAA.  Perhaps we should require proof of identy before allowing anyone to ever have an e-mail address or for use of usenet.

Why stop there?  Perhaps I should leave a spare key to my house with the police so they can search at will.  Perhaps I should dutifully label all my possessions as legally obtained or of dubious legality to save them time when they're here.  

For a couple of centuries now, we in the US have chosen a path of significant liberties at the expense of a certain degree of lawlessness.  My own personal belief is that we should only give up those liberties in clear cases of inequity.  My apologies to the RIAA if I find their plight somewhat unsympathetic -- that their profits are growing at a slightly lower rate than they might otherwise.  And, even if their profits weren't growing, I'd have a really hard time justifying shutting down a system in which less than 5% of the traffic belonged to the plaintiffs.

From my first Internet experience more than 10 years ago, I've been in awe of the degree to which speech is unfettered in the Internet.  In many ways, I consider the Internet to be the true embodiment of the First Amendment of the US Constitution.  To shut down or require regulation of a part of the Internet should require an extremely strong showing that real and significant harm is being done.  And, like all Constitutional matters, the solution should not be over inclusive.  Again, I think Napster and Grokster struck a good balance of equities.

Regards.
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eric stasik

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Re: MGM v. Grokster
« Reply #17 on: 08-31-04 at 01:46 am »

Mr. Ivey,

You should be speaking at the Republican National Convention.

You wax eloquently about freedom of speech even though you know it to be shibboleth. No one is free to say whatever they want.

I think most people want the same laws prohibiting libel, slander, hate speech, child pornography, terroristic threat, fraud, etc. to be equally applied to "the internet" as to every other form of communication.

What I do not fully understand, and what no one has properly explained (even the erstwhile lawrence lessig) is why copyright has become a special exception. Why should established copyright laws be excluded, or substantially weakened, when the form of communication is the Internet?

Arguing "freedom of speech" when the issue is copyright also seems at odds with logic: copyrighted materials are normally excluded from concepts of freedom of speech.

Free speech is a late development in the rights of man - as is the US Constitution. History teaches us that there is are even more fundamental rights.  

Almost 6 centuries before the "Miracle at Philadephia," on a Monday morning in June 1215, King John of England was met in the meadow at Runnymede by the leaders or the barons and forced to sign the humiliating document that we know today as the Magna Carta.

It does not take too many generational cycles for a hereditory system of government to reveal it flaws and the reign of King John was a high water mark of mismanagement: the barons felt they needed some security from the capricious actions of the King John and his progeny and so the Magna Carta was the baron's attempt to subject the King to the rule of law.

As Winston Churchill observed, "It is entirely lacking in any spacious statement about the rights of man. It is not a declaration of constitutional doctrine, but a practical document to remedy current abuses in the fedual system."

It was a document intended to protect the property rights of the landed class.

And here is my point: The right to own property, Mr. Ivey, is at least as important as the right to free speech. As a practical matter, I wouold argue that it is the more important right, predating the right of free speech enshrined in the US bill of rights by 570 some odd years. I would not be so quick to discard it to satisfy the ambitions of Slashdot readers.

Churchill made another important observation:

"Magna Carta must not however be dismissed lightly, in the words of a modern writer, as 'a monument of class selfishness." Even in its own day men of all ranks above the status of villeins had an interest in securing that the tenure of land should be secure from arbitrary encroachment. Moreover, the greatest magnate might hold, and often did hold, besides his estate in chief, parcels of land under the most diverse tenures, by knight service, by the privileges of 'socage,' or as a tenant at will. Therefore in securing  themselves the barons of Runnymede were in fact establishing the rights of the whole landed class, great and small - the simple knight with two hundred acres, the farmer or small yeoman with sixty."

I will not attempt to equate the actions of the barons with the RIAA, but I do think that it is important to recognize that in killing the RIAA by eviserating their copyrights, you may also be killing the seeds of the creative future.

You have your scary future, and I have mine.

Despite appearances, I am not trying to get in the last word, I am working on a book about some of these topics and I appreciate the opportunity to vent some of my ideas here.

Thank you for your many thoughtful comments. I am glad that we do not wholly agree because it helps me to learn.

Regards,

eric stasik.
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JimIvey

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Re: MGM v. Grokster
« Reply #18 on: 08-31-04 at 10:19 am »

Well, this is getting a little more personal that I generally like.  I'll make one last comment and have to leave it at that.

Quote
What I do not fully understand, and what no one has properly explained (even the erstwhile lawrence lessig) is why copyright has become a special exception. Why should established copyright laws be excluded, or substantially weakened, when the form of communication is the Internet?


I've posted many times, and reiterate here, that no one in this topic is suggesting that direct copyright infringement is forgiven if you use a cool new technology.  No one is advocating any exception to copyright infringement.

Mr. Stasik, you appear to be in agreement with the RIAA that a dragnet approach is appropriate: if a communication medium provides an opportunity for copyright infringement and a multitude of other, legitimate communication, the medium must be shut down until it can be made copyright-infringement-proof.  

I won't go so far as to extrapolate what other perspectives you might have, but I believe that perspective in particular to not be reasonably tenable for the reasons given before.

Regards.
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Isaac

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Re: MGM v. Grokster
« Reply #19 on: 08-31-04 at 10:20 pm »

On www.ipo.org under the link "Senate Bills" there is some
testimony from a number of groups (IEEE, BSA, RIAA and
others) about the INDUCE bill (S.2560).  I think the IEEE
has an interesting take.  IEEE-USA takes the position that
vicarious liability should not target technologies with substantial non infringing use, and they
propose a standard (based on the law for inducing patent
infringement) that would allow targetting the Groksters of
the world without outlawing P2P technology.  I think their
approach is fairly rational.

They agree that under current law Grokster was correctly
found not to be liable for contributory/vicarious infringement.
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