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Author Topic: PatentPro Plus  (Read 4845 times)

jay

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PatentPro Plus
« on: 11-22-03 at 07:53 am »

If anyone is interested, I'm selling on eBay my copy of the latest version of PatentPro Plus software.  This is software that steps you through the preparation and filing of a patent application. It also includes the latest edition of the book "Patent It Yourself" by David Pressman (in PDF format).

Here is the link to the auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3639951186&ssPageName=ADME:B:LC:US:1
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M. Arthur Auslander

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Re: PatentPro Plus
« Reply #1 on: 11-23-03 at 10:35 am »

Next to the scam operators, doing it yourself, is probablly almost as ineffective, only much less expensive.

JUST GETTING A PATENT can not only be a A BIG WASTE, it may also give away good invention improperly claimed.

The important thing is to know what you have and IF anyting can be done with it. What is more even GOOD patents may not may not see the commercial light of day.

My woe is the patent I got for a friend that not taken by the company that won a $50,000,000 prize, for turning out something not as good without infringing the patent.

M. Arthur Auslander  
Auslander & Thomas-Intellectual Property Law Since 1909
3008 Johnson Ave., New York, NY 10463
7185430266, aus@auslander.com
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jay

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Re: PatentPro Plus
« Reply #2 on: 11-23-03 at 02:29 pm »

It's quite true that, if you don't know what you're doing, you can obtain a patent that is so flawed as to be worthless.  However, though learning patent law is not easy, it's also not rocket science.  If you do your homework, I believe you can produce your own high-quality patents.  In fact, I believe there is no one better suited to write a patent that an inventor who is knowledgeable with respect to patent law, as nobody knows the technology and the invention as well as the inventor.
Plus, there's so much pleasure in saving yourself so many thousands of dollars that would otherwise subsidize the mahogany furniture and expensive downtown office of an attorney.  No offense to attorneys, but there's no reason that producing a 25-page document should cost upwards of $10,000.

Quote
Next to the scam operators, doing it yourself, is probablly almost as ineffective, only much less expensive.

JUST GETTING A PATENT can not only be a A BIG WASTE, it may also give away good invention improperly claimed.

The important thing is to know what you have and IF anyting can be done with it. What is more even GOOD patents may not may not see the commercial light of day.

My woe is the patent I got for a friend that not taken by the company that won a $50,000,000 prize, for turning out something not as good without infringing the patent.

M. Arthur Auslander  
Auslander & Thomas-Intellectual Property Law Since 1909
3008 Johnson Ave., New York, NY 10463
7185430266, aus@auslander.com
ELAINE's Workshop®
E arly L egal A dvice I s N ot E xpensive™
Reality Check®

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Z

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Re: PatentPro Plus
« Reply #3 on: 11-23-03 at 11:08 pm »

Just a word of logic here to any potential inventors out there who are contemplating writing their own patent. Why risk it? A patent attorney brings more to the table than simply drafting a document. Some say that a patent is the most compex legal document out there, and as such it requires more than just writing skills, knowing the invention, and some knowledge of patent law. A patent attorney brings at least two invaluable things to the table that most inventors lack - experience in dealing with the patent office to get claims allowed over prior art rejections and litigation awareness (i.e. writing patents with an eye to how patent case law may affect the patent and patentee's rights). So at the very least, please consider what you may save in $$ now versus what you may be giving up later.

There are also patent attoneys out there that do know the technology as well as or better than the inventors. For instance, the firm I'm with and I'm sure many others do many patents from the same companies, and in doing so know those fields very very well.
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JimIvey

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Re: PatentPro Plus and self-help
« Reply #4 on: 11-24-03 at 12:27 pm »

First, a note about PatentPro Plus.  I surfed the web briefly to see if it's the same one I'm mildly familiar with.  I can't tell, but I think it is.  I heard an interview with the author of this (or a similar) program.  From what I can tell, the people who wrote it are from a fairly respectable firm and know what they're doing.  However, I still have my doubts given the complexity of writing a patent application.

Second, a note about self help (DIY patent application drafting).  Sure, it's not rocket science (although rocket science itself isn't quite as incomprehensible as many think).  However, I've been writing patent applications and papers to file in association with patent applications for 12 years full time.  I worked for two years before I was allowed to sign my own papers.  I worked for another year before the partners stopped reviewing my work.  That's 3 years full time before being considered competent.  I've had associates work under my supervision and I see why it takes so long.  Mistakes made by people who haven't "been around the block" are quite embarrassing to people who know better.  

I'm not saying attorneys are better than regular folk.  I'm just saying this is a skill that takes time to develop.  It takes years of experience, study, and learning to get it right.  And, if you think you can pick up the skill in a long weekend, go for it.  But I have to warn you, it's one thing to write a patent application.  It's another thing entirely to write a patent application that has a good chance of issuing as a patent.  It's still another thing to write a patent application that is likely to issue as a patent that will cover a useful range of feasible workarounds.  And, it's still another thing entirely to write a patent application that has a good chance of issuing as a patent which covers a useful range of feasible workarounds and is likely to withstand challenges in court.

Having said that, if you still want to avoid attorneys as if they have a plague, use patent agents.  And, you can write your own application to save money, but I still strongly recommend that you have someone who knows what they're doing look at it before you file it.

It may not be rocket science, but it was easier to learn how to fly an airplane than it was to learn to write a good patent application.

One last note about Mr. A's frequently expressed opinion on the matter.  I didn't quite get the gist of his woe; however, Mr. A has on ocassion challenged me to identify specific patents, specific clients, and amounts of money made from the patents.  I won't do that because confidentiality laws won't allow me to.  However, I'll go ahead and state that one client sold its patent portfolio (that I built) for $7million.  The vast majority of my clients had revenues much greater than their costs in obtaining patents.  Perhaps the main difference is that most of my clients (corporations or individuals) were obtaining patents as part of a bigger business they were developing.  The portfolios I've built have helped attract funding, attract mergers and/or acquisitions as exit strategies, have been enforced successfully again competitors, etc.  In short, they bring real, quantifiable value.  However, if you're sitting at home hoping to collect royalty checks for your patent and not really developing the product/service yourself, you're fighting an uphill battle and could probably use a reality check of some sort.  Of course, it's not impossible to generate income having only a patent and no business built around it.  In fact, I have one client who's been quite successful doing exactly that.  But he works hard at it.

I realize this is quite long and touches on quite a few topics.  Each of these could easily be its own thread.  However, I hope my comments were helpful or at least interesting to some.

Regards.
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M. Arthur Auslander

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Re: PatentPro Plus
« Reply #5 on: 12-27-03 at 11:26 am »

Reply to Jay,

Just being smart does not get good patents. Jerry Lemelson, when he started out, wrote his own patent applications because he could not afford good patent counsel.

I got to helping him after one of my clients licenced one of his patents, not for its strength but because it looked good to have a patent number on a commercial article.

It is ironic that he died soon after making it very big, and having more patents than any other inventor and regularly using patent counsel.

« Last Edit: 01-22-04 at 10:24 am by M_Arthur_Auslander »
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eric stasik

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Re: PatentPro Plus
« Reply #6 on: 12-28-03 at 03:56 pm »

Comments to Jay's posting....

"It's quite true that, if you don't know what you're doing, you can obtain a patent that is so flawed as to be worthless."

Correct.

"However, though learning patent law is not easy, it's also not rocket science.  If you do your homework, I believe you can produce your own high-quality patents."

Well, it's not rocket science... i'd say it's more like TV repair. Either way, it's damned difficult for a novice.

"In fact, I believe there is no one better suited to write a patent that an inventor who is knowledgeable with respect to patent law, as nobody knows the technology and the invention as well as the inventor."

I often begin presentations by saying that inventions and patents have nothing to do with each other. Inventions are improvements in technology, patents are legal documents. Don't confuse them.

"Plus, there's so much pleasure in saving yourself so many thousands of dollars that would otherwise subsidize the mahogany furniture and expensive downtown office of an attorney."

Schadenfreude is poor motivation for a business decision.

"No offense to attorneys, but there's no reason that producing a 25-page document should cost upwards of $10,000."

No reason at all. A good inventor who has some knowledge of patent law and who can write a decent application for patent can save herself many thousands of dollars by doing a lot of the preparatory work.

But imagining that a computer program can grasp all of the nuances of writing AND PROSECUTING an application for patent is fantasy.

You can be sure that the company to whom you try and license your patent will not use a computer program to pick it to pieces. One word too many - or too few - in a claim can, and will, sink your ship.

Frankly, if your invention does not have a clear and convincing potential to generate many tens of thousands of dollars of licensing income, you are probably wasting your time and money filing a patent.  

Or you just like to gamble.

In my former life, I was the one who received and analyzed patents which outside inventors (and other companies) offered for sale to my company. Licensing is a a hard business folks. Licensing a poorly written, or even partially flawed patent, is an impossible business.

If you are considering to buy a program to help you save money writing an application, you should probably take this as a strong indication that you shouldn't be filing a patent in the first place.

Caveat emptor.







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eric stasik
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http://www.patent08.com

patent08
patent engineering,
business development,
and licensing services
postbox 24203
104 51 stockholm
sweden

M. Arthur Auslander

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Re: PatentPro Plus
« Reply #7 on: 12-29-03 at 06:26 am »

Dear Eric,

C'MON!!!!

The inventors knowledge does not usually include the subtles of the law and proceedure in getting a patent. There are inventors who, having worked with patents have the skills to write and prosecute patents. They are VERY rare.

For instance, and it just recently occurred to me, Jerry Lemelson used to write his own patent applications BUT THAT WAS BEFORE HE WENT BIG TIME. He was the most creative inventor I have ever met or heard of, but he could not get the hang of writing a good patent appliction or prosecuting it.

I doubt if Edison wrote his own patent applications.

Those skills come from knowedge of the law and its implications and experience and even dealing with patent office examiners.

I don't easily trust doctors and there is a lot of medical information available but I'd be crazy to take care of my medical problems and concerns without consulting  doctor I could trust.

I have such a doctor and feel good about consulting him when there are questions in my mind. There is a lifes synergy in this. I would not take care of my medical problems without using a doctor I trust.

Just going to a patent lawyer is no panecea either. You really have to find one that will work for the PATENT not just the money.

« Last Edit: 01-22-04 at 10:25 am by M_Arthur_Auslander »
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M. Arthur Auslander
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eric stasik

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Re: PatentPro Plus
« Reply #8 on: 12-29-03 at 07:52 am »

Dear Mr. Auslander,

Isn't that what I said? An inventor who has some knowledge about how to write an application for patent can save herself a lot of money by doing the PREPARATORY work, but unless she is an expert on the nuances of patent law, she shouldn't attempt to file and prosecute her own application for patent (or believe that a computer program can do such work for her.)

The more work an applicant does before she meets with her patent attorney, the less of his time she will have to pay for. Attorneys and agents should always encourage their clients to do as much as possible on their own. There is no reason that an application for patent has to cost $10,000.

This shouldn't be controversial.

As for Mr. Lemmelson, if there was ever an example of someone abusing the patent system, it was Mr. Jerome Lemmelson. I am generally on the side of inventors, but I am also on the side of a well-functioning patent system.

His tactic of filing submarine patents and shaking down successful businesses made him a very wealthy man, but in my opinion it weakened the integrity of the patent system.

Thankfully, the U.S. amended her laws in 1995. By limiting the effective life of a patent to 20 years from the earliest claimed date of priority, they put an end (or at least substantially curtailed) to his type of patent abuse.

Regards,
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eric stasik
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patent08
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Perfer toremain Anonymous

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Re: PatentPro Plus
« Reply #9 on: 12-30-03 at 06:25 pm »

Alright, this is the first time I've visited this board.  I'm a poor college student, with a couple of really good ideas.  I do however have a dim perspective as to how to start a patent.  I guess what I'm wondering is how much would it cost (rough estimate) for a lawyer to read over the document to find any errors or weak points.  Thanks.

Anon
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eric stasik

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PatentPro Plus
« Reply #10 on: 12-31-03 at 01:46 am »

Dear Perfer toremain Anonymous,

Before you consider the costs of filing an application, do a little research on your own to see if you should bother filing an application for patent at all.

The USPTO's website provides a reasonably good search engine of published U.S. patents. Start there to see if anyone else beat you to the punch, or if the field of technology is particularly crowded.

If you find that someone has already patented or described your idea in a patent (which happens more often than you might imagine) you can stop right there.

If your search turns up nothing which is spot on and you think there is a niche for your invention, then consult a patent attorney. Hourly rates vary widely depending on where you live and who you use.

$200/hr is the low end, $375/hr is what you might expect to pay at one of the larger firms. Caution is advised. Attorneys often charge in 6 minute increments and everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, you ask them to do will be billed. Faxes, computer searches, copying, etc. will all be billed to you at inflated rates. When you call, don't chit-chat, but get right down to business.

Ask for detailed information regarding billing before you do anything. Some law firms will require a retainer paid in advance. This shouldn't scare you away, but it's something to consider if you're short on cash.

There is one contributor to this board, Mr. Auslander, who advertises something he calls Reality Check. I have no idea what this is (and he is rather vague on the details), but I assume it is a low cost, or fixed price invention evaluation process. Perhaps he will answer with greater specificity.

The thing is this. If you have a valuable invention, the cost of obtaining a patent is essentially meaningless. A few tens of thousands of dollars compared to a few million is noting to worry about. But such patents are EXTREMELY rare.

Most, like 90+%, never provide any return at all. The trick is to not waste money on something which will never be of value.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
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eric stasik
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http://www.patent08.com

patent08
patent engineering,
business development,
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postbox 24203
104 51 stockholm
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