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Author Topic: The EE/ME conundrum  (Read 4157 times)

bleedingpen

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Re: The EE/ME conundrum
« Reply #15 on: 05-17-11 at 08:09 pm »

I have not. I am taking it in October. I am quitting my job and will be studying full time come July. I know it's very difficult at this point to gauge where I can get in, but I'm shooting for GW and BU.  They are good schools, good location, and have very good IP programs. If I can't get into one of them I may consider delaying a year to finish an EE degree, apply for an examiner position, or try to get some patent agent experience (taking patent bar after a couple months after LSAT).


The LSAT score is going to determine what law school you can get into.  It means more than all of your undergrad accomplishments to date IMO.  You need to get some idea of where you are with the LSAT before you quit your job IMO.

And I will disagree with Petethebody.  If you can get into a tier 1 school, go to that school and use cost as a balancing factor if two relatively equally ranked schools are options.  If you can't go to a tier 1, then consider cost as a major factor.  Simply put, it still makes some sense to pay 30K a year in tuition for a good tier 1 school, but doesn't make much sense to do so for lower tiered schools. 
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bbalcrzy23

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Re: The EE/ME conundrum
« Reply #16 on: 05-17-11 at 08:31 pm »

Totally agree with LSAT importance. I took it cold under testing conditions and got a 157. Not great, but I'm fairly confident I can get up to the high 160s. I bombed the games and I plan on improving a ton in that section. GPA isn't great - 3.3. I think a 168+ should give me a good shot at my preferred schools.   

Not to sound cocky, but I know I can get into a tier 1. I will strongly consider the cost when looking at schools ranked in the ~35's and above.

Agreed quitting was very risky, but when you know you are doing something you don't love, then what's the point. Plus my company offered me part-time as a consultant after the LSAT.

Thanks for all the advice everyone, keep it coming. I know there are a lot of people out there with very similar questions that are reading this forum and hopefully benefiting from them. I'm probably getting pretty repetitive with my questions but Im sure all of the engineers turned patent attorneys can understand the tough decision process when making such a change.



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bleedingpen

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Re: The EE/ME conundrum
« Reply #17 on: 05-17-11 at 08:52 pm »

I took the LSAT cold (never saw the damn thing) and then prepared like crazy for 2 months and only improved my score a marginal amount. 

A 157 won't get you into a tier 1 anymore.  I am not even sure a 160 will. 
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patentatt

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Re: The EE/ME conundrum
« Reply #18 on: 05-18-11 at 03:07 am »

Personally, I think anyone that goes right into law after getting their technical degree doesn't have enough real world engineering/science experience to really be an expert in that field. That seems to be what technical consultants are for.
I think you need to be intelligent enough to have a gist of what the invention is, be able to find technical articles/textbooks etc. that explain it in better detail, and then be able to pose intelligent questions to the inventor.


I went to law school straight from undergrad.  In my experience (I've been prosecuting applications for over four years now), technical expertise is really overrated.  Reasons:

1. You usually work on such a variety of applications that it's impossible to have technical experience in many or most of them.  I've worked on everything from makeup containers, to fuel cells, to video games, to artificial intelligence for navigating through mazes, etc.  Working for three years at IBM or Motorola would not have provided me any technical expertise that would have significantly helped me across the spectrum of these cases, even if it might have helped slightly in any particular one.

2. Most prior art is patent literature.  Most patent literature is self-explanatory to a reasonably smart attorney, in part because the literature needs to satisfy the written description, enablement, and best mode provisions.  The difference is immediately apparent, once an examiner cites a journal article that assumes that you know everything.

3. The law is often, if not usually, more important than technical details in overcoming rejections.  A good understanding of the MPEP and the law on sections 101, 102, 103, and 112 will serve you far better than experience in any particular technology.

4. Arguments that approach even a medium level of technical complexity usually cannot be made by mere attorney argument - they must be made by expert testimony in the form of 132 declarations.  Most patent prosecution work is done by large volume filers, like IBM and Sony, and these companies generally want you to leave their inventors alone and obtain patents independently as quickly and cheaply as you can, so expert testimony (at least in my experience) is usually not available from most assignees.

5. Similarly, most examiners are not persons of ordinary skill in the art.  As much as 50% of the time, the art is so off, and the rejection is so bogus, that no technical expertise is required to properly traverse it.

6. Remember, the small number of APJs at the BPAI means that only one of them is required to have technical "expertise" in the application on appeal.  The other two APJs could have no technical expertise whatsoever.  Even the APJ with expertise will usually only have a general expertise, because there are only roughly 100 APJs, and yet hundreds or thousands of art classifications.  APJs are mostly patent generalists.  As you rise through the levels of appeal, this just becomes more true: most judges on the Federal Circuit are not patent attorneys and have practically no technical expertise, and (to my knowledge) none of the Supreme Court judges do.  The same goes for the district court judge that would try an infringement case over your patent, and especially for the jury.  If you cannot persuade any of the above non-specialists that you are right, you will lose.

This is just off the top of my head.
« Last Edit: 05-18-11 at 03:12 am by patentatt »
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petethebody

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Re: The EE/ME conundrum
« Reply #19 on: 05-18-11 at 06:27 am »

Forgot to ask:

Why do you want to be an attorney, why do you think you will enjoy that career path, what are the major obstacles you see on this path, and what is your experience with lawyers/law firms?
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khazzah

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Re: The EE/ME conundrum
« Reply #20 on: 05-18-11 at 08:08 am »

In my experience (I've been prosecuting applications for over four years now), technical expertise is really overrated. 

Disclaimer: I worked for 10+ years before going to law school, so this probably colors my thinking somewhat.

IMHO, being an expert in a technical area is not helpful to doing to the job of a patent prosecutor. As patentatt points out, most patent attorneys work on lots of different kinds of technologies within their major, and sometimes slightly outside of it (ie, EEs doing mechanical work, MEs doing computer work). Also, you can't remain an expert while practicing patent law ... technology marches on, and you're not working in the field any longer.

That said, being an expert may help get you a job at a law firm if the partners think clients will be wowed by your expertise.

I agree with patentatty that technical experience (either in school or on the job) doesn't help you much in reading patents, which make up the vast majority of prior art.

I disagree somewhat with patentatty on the question of whether law or technology is more important in overcoming rejections. If I can find a clear technical distinction between my claims and the reference, that will probably be my main argument, leaving the legal argument as secondary.

That said, you also need a thorough understanding of patent law to do the best for your client in patent pros.

Here's one aspect that hasn't been discussed yet. IMHO, the folks who are happiest doing patent pros are those who like technology.
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Information provided in this post is not legal advice and does not create any attorney-client relationship.

bbalcrzy23

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Re: The EE/ME conundrum
« Reply #21 on: 05-18-11 at 08:20 am »

Reasons I want to leave my job:
I knew from my first day at work that I wasn't satisfied with my current level of formal education. I knew I wanted to go back to school for something eventually.  I've had 3 great years at a great company, however my learning curve here has flattened out and I have become pretty bored. I'm not working on any ground breaking technology, I am simply designing standard power plants. I also have realized that I do not want to be an engineer my entire life. I have explored the possibility of moving around within my current company; either the eng. management route or project management. Neither really seem to interest me much. I work with a lot of talented people, but what really struck me as a good reason to leave is: I am not desirous of anyone's position at my company. Meaning, there is not one job, above or below me in this massive company that I think I would truly love.  Therefore, IMO, I should leave.

Reasons for going to law school / IP law:
1. getting back into formal education
2. have always been intrigued by legal field.
3. have always enjoyed my interactions with lawyers and it always seemed like a field that I would enjoy.
4. I want to own my own company one day. This will not be possible in my current field.
5. I have always loved learning about new technology - I think that's why I chose Engineering. However, I don't need to be the engineer or inventor; I enjoy simply being exposed to new ideas and new technology. That's what draws me into patent law.
6. I want to be consistently challenged and in a learning atmosphere. I would love the opportunity to learn about new inventions on a day to day basis. I am constantly coming up with my own wacky ideas and I would love to be in that type of atmosphere.
7. I want high earning potential.

...I'm sure there are a few more...

Obstacles:
1. debt
2. bad/saturated job market...especially for mech. background (opposed to EE).
3. no legal experience...what if I hate it?
4. I am currently not a good public speaker. It's something I plan on actively working on and will hopefully master at some point.

Is it possible things won't immediately workout and I end up regretting this decision? ---Maybe
If I stay in my current position will I regret it? ---Definitely



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patentatt

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Re: The EE/ME conundrum
« Reply #22 on: 05-18-11 at 11:34 am »

In my experience (I've been prosecuting applications for over four years now), technical expertise is really overrated. 

Disclaimer: I worked for 10+ years before going to law school, so this probably colors my thinking somewhat.

IMHO, being an expert in a technical area is not helpful to doing to the job of a patent prosecutor. As patentatt points out, most patent attorneys work on lots of different kinds of technologies within their major, and sometimes slightly outside of it (ie, EEs doing mechanical work, MEs doing computer work). Also, you can't remain an expert while practicing patent law ... technology marches on, and you're not working in the field any longer.

That said, being an expert may help get you a job at a law firm if the partners think clients will be wowed by your expertise.

I agree with patentatty that technical experience (either in school or on the job) doesn't help you much in reading patents, which make up the vast majority of prior art.

I disagree somewhat with patentatty on the question of whether law or technology is more important in overcoming rejections. If I can find a clear technical distinction between my claims and the reference, that will probably be my main argument, leaving the legal argument as secondary.

That said, you also need a thorough understanding of patent law to do the best for your client in patent pros.

Here's one aspect that hasn't been discussed yet. IMHO, the folks who are happiest doing patent pros are those who like technology.

Karen raises a great point that technical expertise will help you get the job, even if won't help as much when you do the job.

Also, Karen is right that technical arguments are almost always the best arguments to make.  If the Examiner says that reference X teaches Y, and the Examiner is just wrong technically, then that's better than arguing that references can't be combined after KSR.

My larger point is that, even though I have no industry expertise, I have generally not had trouble identifying technical arguments when they are available and making them.  I suppose that it's possible that I've missed some over the years.  But if I missed them, I wonder how difficult it would have been to persuade other non-specialists that I was right.
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bbalcrzy23

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Re: The EE/ME conundrum
« Reply #23 on: 10-30-11 at 08:08 pm »

I took the LSAT cold (never saw the damn thing) and then prepared like crazy for 2 months and only improved my score a marginal amount. 

A 157 won't get you into a tier 1 anymore.  I am not even sure a 160 will. 

Got my score back, 171. So I should have a good shot at a few T14s. 
What do you think about a school like Northwestern or Georgetown (paying sticker) vs GW/BU with some scholarship money?
Thanks for all your advice thus far.
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