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[MikeD]

Hey Everyone,

I am currently an undergraduate student at the University of Michigan determining whether to major in Biomedical Engineering or Industrial and Operations Engineering.  One of the career paths that interests me (my top choice as of now) is patent law, and I was wondering what would be a better background.

If I did industrial engineering, I would join an honors program that allows students to get a cultural and business core, along with the BSE degree, and the option of getting a masters degree all within 5 years.  I am interested in this program, because my interests are not tied down to engineering, and I would enjoy the cultural/business courses that I would take.  Michigan is also ranked #2 in IOE (although I do realize that rankings don't mean much), which is a plus, since the program attracts top professors and is organized well.

On the other hand, biomedical engineering is a newer program that interests me, as I am interested in Biochemistry.  If I chose BME, I would pursue Biomedical Engineering with a biochemical concentration.  The down side is that it may not be possible to join the honors program with a business/cultural core, the program is less organized as of now, and would be more challenging (lower GPA = lower chance of getting into law school).  With the U of M hospital system, though, I would not be surprised if the program took off quickly, as there are already many research positions available.  

So, I am interested in both areas, although they do have their down sides (BME may be a bit too technical, some IOE classes are bland-- i'm not interested in manufacturing).  

I guess my question is which background would provide a better lead-in to patent law, or does it not really make a difference?  Do you know what kind of work industrial engineers do in patent law?

I apologize for this post being so cluttered, but it's getting down the urgent time right now of choosing my major, as it must be declared by april, and I am interested in both areas (BME could also take me the pre-med path).

Thanks!

[Isaac]

If I were not interested in the courses in the Industrial Engineering curriculum (and I'm not) then I would not study IE.

At least you seem somewhat interested in some of the biomedical engineering curriculum although your comment that some of the courses seem "too technical" baffles me.

Perhaps you really don't want to be an engineer?

[MikeD]

I'm not saying that I don't have interest in IE, in fact I do have much interest in people/management of people.  What i do not have much interest in is manufacturing, which is not all of IE-- there are other parts that do interest me: organizational studies, management, risk management, game theory, etc...  Plus, the IE honors program w/ a business and cultural core interests me greatly.

For BME, I am not always interested in going to the depth that BME's go into... for example, I am intereted in biochemistry and the way drugs interact with the body, but I am not necessarily interested in going to the highest level of detail... I enjoy the concepts.  That being said, I discovered a masters.eng program in pharmaceutical engineering that I may be able to do with either BSE degree, which would lend itself to patent law as well.  

So, I am interested in both fields-- my question is whether or not one is much more desirable for patent firms

[Isaac]

I cannot directly answer you're question with hard facts, but my impression based on looking at the advertisements, there seem to be a few more advertised positions for biomedical engineers than industrial engineers.   Of course those ads are dwarfed by the ones calling for PhD's in life sciences or for attorneys with electrical engineering degrees.

My reservation is that someone who is less interested in the highly technical aspects might not be happy doing patent work which involves working with cutting edge technology by definition.

But that's just one person's take on things.  Keep in mind that my background is electrical engineering/computer engineering/physic, and I am not so knowledgeable about the landscape in the fields you ask about.

[JimIvey]

I too am not particularly familiar with the gory details of these two paths, but I'll offer whatever perspective I can.

Chemical/Life Science practice is a specialty within the specialty of patent law.  I'm not familiar with it, so I don't practice there.  But I know it's sufficiently different to not even venture in that direction.  If you go with the IOE path, it's possible that you are foreclosing the chemical/life science path.

Not practicing in the area of chemical/life science disciplines, I can't say how easy it is to cross-over into the apparently more mundane area dominated by the IOE type of technology.  While it may seem easy to "step down" in technical specialty, it might not be that easy.  I understand that there's an entire body of obviousness law pertaining to chemical practice that just isn't applicable to other disciplines.  I don't know to what degree chemical practitioners are familiar with the non-chemical law.

One last thing to consider, the IOE (from what I understand) covers "blue collar" innovation -- things you might see in the mid-west industrial belt.  Conversely, BME sounds like cutting edge technology you're likely to see in the Silicon Valley (also a hotbed for biotech innovation) -- although can all over the geography as much work is done in teaching hospitals all over the country.  The two disciplines appear to be quite opposite of one another.  So I think hopping back and forth between the technologies won't be easy.

One of the advantages of a patent practice is that it's good for techies with ADD -- you only stick with a technology long enough to understand, describe it, and capture it before moving on to the next.  I don't stick with a project for months and months trying to iron out that last bug.  The disparity between your technical interests may make it hard to do both.

And, biotech (assuming BME qualifies) tends to prefer advanced degrees.  You'd be competing with a bunch of truly impressive PhDs.

One last thought:  a double major might make you truly unique among patent practitioner candidates.

Good luck!

[MikeD]

That's an interesting take on it.  In fact, one of the reasons I am looking into patent law is because I need to constantly change my focus ; I would go crazy if I had to focus on the same project for over a year... it seems that the ideal job for me is one that requires creativity, and my task is changing as much as possible (doesn't become completely repetitive).

I guess that you are saying that BME would be a more appropriate undergrad major than IOE for patent law, which I expected would be the common response.  In terms of the level of technicality, I think you're misunderstanding me a bit -- I do enjoy new technical innovation, which is why I am in the engineering school.  However, I am not sure I would like to go through all of the tedious detail in coming up with these new innovations.  Working with them on the level of writing their patents, would give me a broader understanding of the technology, and would be less tedious than actually developing it.  

I spoke to a few lawyers who work in big chicago firms, and they said that neither major would really put me at a serious advantage over the other, and that I should go with the one I am more interested in and/or would get me a higher GPA.  My position is that I may be more interested in the biomedical sciences, but my mathematical strengths lead me a bit more towards IOE.  I would be more inclined to enroll in IOE at michigan because the program is much stronger and more structured, and I have the opportunity to enroll in that cultural/business honors program that interests me.

However, it may be better to follow my interests in BME-- there is a Simultaneous Undergrad-Graduate Study program that will allow me to get a masters in 4.5 or 5 years, and I would most likely get my masters in Pharmaceutical Engineering.  Would this type of masters' help for patent law?

One main question that I still have is what kind of Patent work I would be doing if I decided to major in IOE rather than BME.  In BME, it seems like most of my work would be new medical instruments/drugs/surgery methods, which is interesting.  But IOE seems a little less traditional, and I am not sure what type of patents I would write except for business processes.  

thanks!

[JimIvey]

One last caution:  despite my little quip about geeks with ADD, patent law is HARD.  It requires intense concentration.

Imagine having writers' block with an hour before you have to file something.  While you're struggling to force the words to come from the keyboard, you're also aware that whatever you write next will be scrutinized in court 5 years from now by a litigator with a 7-figure budget and if you don't get it just right, you may be defending against a malpractice suit or cost your client his/her business.

Now, do that after having spent two straight weeks of longs hours writing the same document -- one that you're sick of looking at.  It's tough!

In all fairness, that doesn't happen all that often, but often enough.  This practice isn't for the faint of heart.  And, keep in mind that you'll be mostly a professional writer.  Not a novelist where you hang out in a cabin in the woods for several months writing when you feel inspired, but a technical/legal writer with daily deadlines and a large backlog.

There are days in which I love what I do.  Then there are other days.

Don't do this because it's easier than science or engineering.  It isn't.  Do it because you love writing, you love arguing, and you want to see a wide variety of technology.

Good luck!

[MikeD]

  "Don't do this because it's easier than science or engineering.  It isn't.  Do it because you love writing, you love arguing, and you want to see a wide variety of technology. "

I agree wholeheartedly with that.  Although I am not sure if I am 100% doing patent law, my interests seem to lead me in that direction.  If anyone could answer my question as to what type of work IE's do in patent law, I would really appreciate it.

If I did decide to pursue BME, would a masters' degree help me with patent law (probably in pharmaceutical engineering)?

Also, do law schools take into account the probable lower GPA of engineering graduates?

[Isaac]

Many law schools, particularly the tippy top rated ones, appear to have fairly rigid minimum standards for undergraduate GPA and LSAT scores.  If you look at the ranking information (which includes the minumum GPA for entry into the law school) you can come to that conclusion yourself.

If you make their cut, then other things may come into play in deciding if you get admitted.  

Obviously not all law schools take the same approach, and also for those schools with relatively lower GPA/LSAT entry requirements, the school is going to use other factors to narrow the field.  

One other point is that even at lower rated schools, ratios of 30 applicants for each open seat are not uncommon.

I can't answer your questions about what IEs do.  I think advanced degrees are expected credentials in the life science fields.

[Redwalla]

I am a patent attorney with IOE and I have found it to be not very helpful.  In fact, I had to go back to Enginneering school to get courses in EE/CS.  

Having said that, look to your first passion.  What do you enjoy the most about engineering?  You will not be inventing any details but you will be required to have a thorough understanding of the details.  Patent law is very detail oriented work and if you do not enjoy details, it may not be the right profession for you.  Believe me when I saw this -- you will be immersed in detail-oriented work and will be required to decipher very minor differences in innovation.

BME is also not a very technical degree but will provide you better preparation for patent law than IOE.  I don't think the honors program will help you much in the profession other than getting into a good law school.   If you can already attend the Michigan law school, I would bother with IOE.  

In either case, I would take a substantial number of EE/CS courses to understand the software world because that is where you eill end up with either majors.  

Biotehcnology is hot currently in the patent law world but your BS is simply not sufficient training to be a biotechnology lawyer.  You will need a MS/PhD for such work.

Hope this helps.  In the end remember, neither choice is right or wrong.  Both will lead to different opportunities and it will just depend on what you enjoy more.

Also, after law school, you may not want to practice patent law.  The world is full of abundance and opportunities.  Choose what you enjoy do the most!

[Mike D]

Thank you very much for the response.  

If I may ask you, what type of patent work do you do as an IOE grad?  I like IOE because it is less restrictive, and my education would be a bit more well-rounded.  I do understand systems thinking quite well, and that also comes in valuable in IOE.

For BME, there are areas I love and areas that are a bit too technical for me.  For example, my BME seminar yesterday discussed the dynamics of bubbles for about an hour, giving equations for various types of bubles and what not-- I'm not quite as interested in this.

However, either path I go, I would not be happy working as a traditional engineer.  Patent Law seems to be an area that would allow me to pursue my passion of learning new things, and since the work is constantly changing, it would not be as bland as other professional jobs.

If you could tell me what ytpe of patent work you do, or if there si anywhere else I could get ahold of you, I would greatly appreciate it... thanks!

[ted]

I am a patent attorney in the bio/pharm area.  First, if a graduate degree is completely out of the question, and you have an interest in electrical engineering and/or computer science -- that is where to go.

If you have an interest in life science, do a computer science/bioinformatics degree.

[Mike D]

My interests within engineering are pretty much tied down to industrial/operations/management engineering and biomedical/pharmaceutical engineering.

If I decided to go the industrial route, would there still be patent work available after gruaduating from law school?

[Mike D]

Another option that I was weighing today while talking to my advisor would be the combination of a BSE in Industrial and Operations engineering, and a MSE in Biomedical or Pharmaceutical Engineering.  Would the advanced degree in BME/PharmE give me the necessary credential to work on biomedical patents?

Since there is some overlab between IOE and BME requirements, a dual major is also a possibility, but I'm not sure whether it would look better to get a BSE/MSE rather than 2 MSE's.