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[b-todd]

What is with agents & attorneys. I have met some pretty rude ones here lately.  
what  does it take to get an appointment with an agent or attorney?  Do I need to lie and say I'm made of money?  
I called one attorneys office and asked what they charged to file a patent.  (Is this a bad question?)  They then refered me to another office....so I called this office and was told I would need to make an appointment and bring my invention, and they would let me know if they thought I could get a patent. If so the government would help pay the cost of the patent.  I really don't like the thought of just walking into an office and handing my invention over to just who-ever.  Is there more I should know before setting an apointment with this government agency? :-/


 

[Bill Richards]

Well, I'm a patent attorney, and I'm not rude.  In fact, the ones on this Forum seem to be polite and patient.  So, I'm confused and perhaps you could clarify?
You say that you have met some rude agents and attorneys "here".  Do you mean this Forum?  Your post shows you've only posted once on this Forum, so I'm not sure what you mean.
As for your question about charges, it's absolutely a proper question.  Be aware, however, it varies, and sometimes quite a bit.  But, in general, $5,000 to 10,000 covers probably 90 percent of all filings.  Bio and computer-based tend to be at the high end, or higher.  Mechanical, depending upon the complexity of the technology, tend to be near the lower end.
Being passed from one office to another does not sound like any patent practitioner's office I know.  And, none of the patent practitioners I know even want your invention in their office, at least initially, and especially if it's "bigger than a breadbox".
Are you speaking with US government agencies??  Which ones?  I know of no program where the US government would help pay the cost of acquiring a patent.  Work done with government funding may give rights to the technology to the government, but I've not seen the government pay for any patent prosecution.  And, I've worked in the industry/government field for over five years.
In sum, there are plenty of private practice patent attorneys willing to talk with you.  They will listen patiently, give you an estimate of the cost (some will do the work for a fixed fee, so you have some certainty regarding the cost), and not require you bring your invention (although some practitioners, myself included, like to "touch and feel" an invention if it's practical to do so, but it's not necessary).  In fact, it's possible to conduct the entire transaction and get an application on file without ever sitting down face-to-face.

[JimIvey]

I think Bill gave a good answer, but I'd like to offer another perspective on your questions.

What is with agents & attorneys. I have met some pretty rude ones here lately.  

Don't know what to say about this.  People are people.  Rude people are everywhere.  But, without knowing more about what you mean, it's impossible to explain what might have been in the mind of the agent/attorney doing/saying/writing the "rude" thing.

what  does it take to get an appointment with an agent or attorney?  Do I need to lie and say I'm made of money?  

This suggests a common gripe I see insinuated fairly regularly.  Do you realize that a moderately complex patent application can take a relatively inexperienced practitioner over a month to write?  How much do you charge for a month's work?  You should be ready to pay about the same for someone else's month's work.  Whether your particular invention will require a man-month or more or less is unknown until they know what your invention is.

Maybe you're just complaining about the difficulty of getting an appointment with an attorney/agent.  Since I know nothing about who you've tried to meet, I can't say.  But, it's not improbable that the agents/attorneys you've tried to meet are currently doing all the work they can and they're just not able to take on new clients.  It happens.  

I called one attorneys office and asked what they charged to file a patent.  (Is this a bad question?)  They then refered me to another office....so I called this office and was told I would need to make an appointment and bring my invention, and they would let me know if they thought I could get a patent.

You called an attorney's office.  If the attorney you spoke with is not a registered patent attorney, he/she will most definitely have to refer you elsewhere.  Patents are a specialty -- the only specialty we're allowed to advertise (in just my state?  or everywhere? not sure).  So, you can't just call some attorney and expect him/her to be able to answer your patent questions.

To provide you with a reasonable quote for what you should expect to pay for that man-month I wrote about above, the practitioner must know what he/she is going to have to describe/claim in your patent application.  My personal range for fees for writing a single patent application is as low as $700 and as high as over $100,000.  Is it because I was working really hard and efficiently on the first one and watched a lot of TV on the clock with the second one?  No, it's a difference in the complexity of the respective inventions.  If you want to know where in that range your invoice would likely fall, you'll have to tell the practitioner what you've invented.  

Aside from just a price quote, attorneys can't represent clients with adverse interests.  So the attorney must know at least the general technology in which your invention lies to determine if he/she already has a client in that technology.  For example, if I represent GM in carburetor technology and you come in to my office with a new carburetor design, I can't represent you.  The earlier you get that issue out of the way, the better.

... message too large -- splitting ...

[JimIvey]

... continued...

If so the government would help pay the cost of the patent.  

That's news to me.  The US Patent and Trademark Office provides reduced fees for "small entities" -- individuals and companies with fewer than 500 employees who haven't licensed their invention.  But that's it.  

I really don't like the thought of just walking into an office and handing my invention over to just who-ever.  

I've addressed this issue in great detail in here somewhere else.  I'll try to summarize to give some answer.

Attorneys can lose their license (not just patent attorneys) for divulging a client confidence -- even if you're just talking to the attorney to determine whether you want to hire them.  The obligation of an attorney to not betray your trust is as strong as any NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement).

More importantly, attorneys -- generally speaking -- are not in the business of taking new ideas and creating businesses around them.  It's just not the business model attorneys have adopted.  My business plan is to help people write and prosecute patent applications in exchange for money.  That's my job.  That's how I pay my mortgage and feed my family.  I have many years left on my mortgage.  How many more mortgage payments could I make if I develop a reputation for ripping off my clients?

Is there more I should know before setting an apointment with this government agency? :-/

Yes, which agency is it?  What do they give?  What do they need?  And those issues just scratch the surface -- not really enough to get you from "idea" to "profit".  Despite what most people think, profiting from a new idea is extremely difficult.  It sounds like you haven't really even started the process yet.  It will be a huge learning experience for you.

Regards.

[JSonnabend]

I, too, am not rude (at least by my measure, but I am from Brooklyn).  I'd be happy to discuss your matter by telephone and give you an honest initial impression as well as price quote/estimate.  

Also, note that I'm a patent attorney, and so you need not worry about confidentiality.  Our conversation would be covered by the attorney client privilege, and I would lose my license if I wilfully violated it.

- Jeff

[Bill Richards]

I am an attorney also, but I believe (Rule 10.57) agents enjoy the same privilege.  At least they can suffer similar consequences for violating a confidence.  Can't cite any case law, however.

[Isaac]

I am an attorney also, but I believe (Rule 10.57) agents enjoy the same privilege.  At least they can suffer similar consequences for violating a confidence.  Can't cite any case law, however.

I think any distinction in the attorney/client privilege between agents and attorneys is beside the point here.  Privilege would only matter if legal means were applied to force you to reveal a confidence.   I don't think that is really the poster's concern.

The main distinction between attorneys and agents with respect to rule 10.57 is that attorneys have to follow an analogous rule promulgated by the state bar.  There can be conflicts with state rules and rule 10.57 with regards to revealing a confidence to prevent a crime, but that's beside the point too.

[Bill Richards]

Jeez!  I don't know, Jeff thougt confidentiality was one of the poster's concerns, and so do I.  Just thought Jeff was making a distinction, for whatever reason, and wanted to note the PTO rules, too.
So sorry if I muddied the waters . . . . I'll certainly be more careful in the future.

[Isaac]

Jeez!  I don't know, Jeff thougt confidentiality was one of the poster's concerns, and so do I.  Just thought Jeff was making a distinction, for whatever reason, and wanted to note the PTO rules, too.
So sorry if I muddied the waters . . . . I'll certainly be more careful in the future.

I think your post was just fine.  10.57 deals with confidentiality just as you suggested.  I meant to add to your post rather than to attack it in any way.

[b-todd]

I think this is a great forum, and I  must have gave the wrong impression....the rude agents and attorneys are the ones I have talked with over the phone.    One woman hung up on me yesterday when I asked if she was a patent agent.   Oh-well, live and learn.

This so-called government office,  I called again this morning.  What I found out is that they are an economic development company for this area (KY).  And what they do is help people commercialize their ideas.  They give grants from the state to presume a patent.  Does this sound right?   They also told me that the reason I was refered to them is because the patent attorney charges for any information they give.  I guess it's not like construction work....free estimates.  hehehe  Oh-well, I would have gladly paid for the time,  and any info.

Thanks for the response, I have alot of questions and I will post again.    Belinda

[Bill Richards]

Belinda,
Well, hopefully your impression has changed for the better.  And, as you can see, there's plenty of good information here and none of it costs you anything.  Finally, many (but not all) patent attorneys/agents will give you a brief consultation without charge.
Good luck!

[TataBox]

I, too, am not rude (at least by my measure, but I am from Brooklyn).  I'd be happy to discuss your matter by telephone and give you an honest initial impression as well as price quote/estimate.  

Also, note that I'm a patent attorney, and so you need not worry about confidentiality.  Our conversation would be covered by the attorney client privilege, and I would lose my license if I wilfully violated it.

- Jeff

Sidenote:

Wouldnt your conversation be covered by the Duty of Confidentiality?   I think if you took the case, you then the attorney-client privilege would apply.

[JimIvey]

We're getting far afield from what I do professionally, but I think the attorney-client privilege applies even if the attorney isn't hired yet.  My understanding of the distinction between confidentiality and the privilege, the sole meaningful distinction, is that the privilege applies in court -- a court can't compel disclosure of the confidence.  In law school, the hypotheticals always involved someone making self-incriminating statements to a criminal defense attorney before hiring the attorney.  I may be remembering this wrong, but I think those statements are privileged, as well as confidential.

Let's get a little closer to my practice.  Suppose someone comes to me as says they want to file a patent application on an idea by a software development contractor and don't want to name her as an inventor.  I'd tell them about 35 USC 102(f) and refuse to help them do it -- also letting them know about the Declaration and perjury.  Suppose further they leave without hiring me.

Suppose years later, I learn that they filed the application using another practitioner and I'm now being deposed about what I discussed with them in my initial consultation.  I think I'd have to refuse and assert privilege.  I think I'd have to have a judge compel me to testify before I would testify.

An interesting side bar: having found myself in deposition, I learned that outside the Northern District of California, there is no privilege for patent attorneys.  The theory is that patent application preparation is not in anticipation of litigation.  I was astonished.  I said that every patent is something to be litigated, no less so than a contract.  Apparently, outside ND Calif., the law doesn't see it that way.  Fortunately for me and my client, the deposition was for a case in, where else?, ND Calif.

Regards.

[Bill Richards]

The A/C privilege attaches when the, even potential, client interacts with the attorney as an attorney.  Thus, the conversation on the courthouse steps, where the attorney gets stopped by someone, is privileged.
As for the fraud, wouldn't this be an ongoing fraud that is an exception to the A/C privilege/confidentiality?  Having said that, I'd also wait for the court to compel.

[Isaac]

The A/C privilege attaches when the, even potential, client interacts with the attorney as an attorney.  Thus, the conversation on the courthouse steps, where the attorney gets stopped by someone, is privileged.
As for the fraud, wouldn't this be an ongoing fraud that is an exception to the A/C privilege/confidentiality?  Having said that, I'd also wait for the court to compel.

The confidentiality limits are state specific.  In many jurisdictions (for example DC) there is no exception allowing the attorney to reveal  client secret to prevent commission of a fraud or other crimes not involving bodily harm, even though the attorney has an obligation not to participate in the crime.  In North Carolina an attorney is allowed to reveal info to prevent commission of a crime or even to correct a past fraud in some cases.  I believe VA rules require the attorney to reveal info to prevent commission of a crime if the attorney cannot dissuade the client.

In some cases federal law may require revealing a confidence that state law prohibits revealing.