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Author Topic: What is the best route at a career in patent lit  (Read 7394 times)

ACD

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What is the best route at a career in patent lit
« on: 07-05-05 at 02:58 pm »

I am a senior Electrical and Computer Engineer who would be graduating with a BS in May 2006.  Ever since my sophomore year I have been looking into careers in intellectual property (preferably patent litigation).  Ever since the summer of 2003 (and every consecutive summer including this one) I have been working as an intern in a well-known computer company (one of the fortune 20 companies on the Forbes list <not giving out its name since this hint may be easy to grasp> ).  I need to make the right decisions quickly because before this summer ends I would be offered a full time position as an engineer but my real aspirations are to become a patent litigation attorney.  Looking through this forum at the various questions being asked and its corresponding postings (some of which seemed to be very argumentative) am I inclined to ask some questions of my own.  The following are some queries I have and would like professional opinions on:

1.  I would be graduating with from an Ivy League University with an engineering degree.  Within the past 3 semesters my GPA fell from a 3.7 to a 3.2 (largely to do with the fact that I have a 1 year old son whom I need to provide for).  I am contemplating on whether I should forfeit my May 2006 graduation and take an extra year and get a dual degree in the Liberal Arts field to get my GPA up to about a 3.5 or 3.6 so that I would have a competitive advantage in the top law schools.

2.  On the same issue as stated in question 1, would getting a higher engineering degree like a Master of Engineering serve me better at getting into these top schools.  

3.  Right after graduation (undergrad), should I proceed and take the patent bar exam to become a patent agent or would going directly to law school become a better option? The reason why I ask this question is because if I decide to turn down my offer from this engineering company, what other alternatives would I have to provide me income while I am in law school?
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IPLVER

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Re: What is the best route at a career in patent l
« Reply #1 on: 07-05-05 at 03:51 pm »

ACD having an undergraduate degree from an Ivy league school is certainly quite the feather in your cap.  I would say that especially if you are an EE, going for  Master's degree would not add that much.  For patent litigation you do not even need a technical background but it certainly helps.

If you want to support yourself while going to law school try finding a technical specialist/law clerk program.
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ACD

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Re: What is the best route at a career in patent l
« Reply #2 on: 07-06-05 at 08:34 am »

Thanks IPLVER, so is it worth the while for me to obtain the dual degree in Liberal Arts field and get my grades back up?
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PiP

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Re: What is the best route at a career in patent l
« Reply #3 on: 07-06-05 at 11:42 am »

I think that it is not worth it to continue undergraduate study.  Your 3.2 is good enough, I think, as long as you do at least okay on the LSAT.  You can always mention that you have a child and have a difficult major in one of the top schools in the country and that should be enough to get you in to law school.  Staying in school will cost you big time (- 1 year tuition, - 1 year salary, for example.)  You can't ignore that amount of lost money.

Working with a large company gives you at least some advantages in going to law school. You should discreetly speak with the attorneys at your company to make the initial connections.  Often they have some connections to law schools in the area.  Also, see if your company will pay for schooling.  I got a job offer from a large pharma company and spoke with their HR and they offered to pay for law schooling, no problem!  Also, if you do law school part time you can have slightly relaxed admissions standards, in most cases.  I know you didn't ask about night school but it seems like a nice option to consider.

It is important to find a way to get some experience in law before you have to get out there as an attorney.  Maybe you can get into this company and try to move laterally into the legal department?  It's often really difficult to get your foot in the door of a large company, but relatively easy to move around once you are in.

I would say that the financial aid packages normally give you enough cash to live on.  In Philly, it's around $10k per semester for living expenses.  I know it's not that much, but it's just enough in the case that you go full time to law school and still have to provide for your child.  
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ACD

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Re: What is the best route at a career in patent l
« Reply #4 on: 07-06-05 at 12:25 pm »

PiP (IPLVER as well) I admire your intelligible response and you provide some thoughtful suggestions.  I have never really phased out night schooling and the possibility still lingers as one of my options.  
Since we are on this discussion, I would like to know if during my senior year I should study and take the patent bar exam before I graduate to became a patent agent.  Is this option more feasible than the possibility that I can work for this company as an engineer?
The real issue here is that even though I respect the field of engineering and adore its qualities, I realized early in my career that engineering is not entirely my satisfaction.  I figured that starting early at what I always wanted to do would give me a more competitive edge than if I stay in engineering and then move into patent litigation (correct me if this perception may be incorrect).  I know patent litigation is a very competitive arena, a competitiveness in which I am not afraid to embark, and I am willing to give what it takes to be successful.  I prefer to attend law school in NYC since I would most likely want to work for a firm in the NYC area (or the tri-state district).
Could any of you give more insight on this?
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Wiscagent

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Re: What is the best route at a career in patent l
« Reply #5 on: 07-06-05 at 12:46 pm »

PiP asked "... if during my senior year I should study and take the patent bar exam before I graduate to became a patent agent."

The USPTO will not allow you to take the exam until you graduate.  You certainly can start studying while still in school, but you probably will not be able to take the exam until several months after graduation.  Assuming you pass the exam, it will be an additional couple of months before you are registered as a patent agent.

Richard Tanzer
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Richard Tanzer
Patent Agent

Wiscagent

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Re: What is the best route at a career in patent l
« Reply #6 on: 07-06-05 at 12:57 pm »

Sorry, misattribution – ACD asked about taking the patent bar while still in school.

- RT   ;)
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Richard Tanzer
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PiP

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Re: What is the best route at a career in patent l
« Reply #7 on: 07-06-05 at 01:25 pm »

Thanks Richard.  Your responses in these forums are EXTREMELY helpful and I enjoy reading your advice!

ACD, I noticed that there are a few agents (usually 3 or less) at many of the law firms in NYC and who are attending either Fordham or NYU part time.  I don't know how these people get these great positions, but I'll be their firms are paying for the schooling, too.  

Building your experience in law is far more valuable than building it in EE or CE since you plan to do law for the rest of your life.  Might as well start building your knowledge base now...  I am also considering this part-time schooling since I can earn a lot of money with my PhD, but I'm scared about the amount of stress I'll have to take on.  

I want to ask you ACD, as I am just in my application process as well, what do you (or anyone else) think of Cardova (Yeshiva)?  They seem to have put major effort into their IP program.  Also, this might benefit you ACD, they have part time programs that begin at each semester, including summer.   They also let you start law school BEFORE you finish college!  I think that they make up for experience loss (by going to too much school) by also putting focus on clinical programs.  Although I've lived in NYC for a time, I have never heard anyone speak even the name of Yeshiva?!  I'm not saying that it's on par with Columbia or NYU, which would be insane, but what tier would you guys put it?  Is it better than Fordham, St. Johns or Rutgers?  
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ACD

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Re: What is the best route at a career in patent l
« Reply #8 on: 07-06-05 at 02:23 pm »

Honestly PiP, I have never heard of Cardova (Yeshiva).  I cannot say where this school would stand when compared to Rutgers, Fordham or St Johns.  I live in NYC and never heard of Cardova.  From many of the other posting I have read in this forum, a school may be much more influential within its district than it would be on a national spectrum.  You might have to consult the school’s statistics to see how Cardova compares to other schools.  
PiP since your in almost the same predicament as I am, I would like to know something.  Even though I am graduating next May I plan to take a year off before I proceed towards law school what is your take on this?
As IPLVER suggested, I could also look into a career as a technical specialist/law clerk or I could even try the patent agent route.  I know this would not probably pay as much as I could obtain within engineering but I would like to know how you’re dealing with the transition from PhD to law?
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IPLVR

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Re: What is the best route at a career in patent l
« Reply #9 on: 07-06-05 at 04:42 pm »

ACD the technical specialist law clerk rule means that you have to go to school and work. As a return you will be able to get paid and get experience.
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ACD

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Re: What is the best route at a career in patent l
« Reply #10 on: 07-07-05 at 08:41 am »

Thanks IPLVR.  Now to get to the heart of this subject, I would like to know about the pros and cons between Patent Prosecution and Patent Litigation.  
My take is that prosecution involves more of the paper work (a lot of writing involved) and where there exists a lot of interaction between the inventor and the patent attorney.  Where as patent litigation deals more with the lawsuits associated with patents and the excess number of hours being put into preparation for trials.  Since I have a son, would this mean that once I become a litigation attorney I would no longer be there for him and if I am married would inevitably be divorced, or am I over exaggerating this?  Are there a lot of lawyers you know who have defied these odds?
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PiP

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Re: What is the best route at a career in patent l
« Reply #11 on: 07-07-05 at 11:28 am »

Wow, I can't believe that even you, who are from NYC, haven't heard of Cardovo.  That does not bode well for applying there!  I think I'll focus on Fordham, NYU and Columbia in Big Apple Land.

For my transition from PhD-land to law, I've been trying to gain experience at every avenue and to make connections.  For the actual move over, I'm still up in the air due to graduation date (which is why getting a PhD is horrible--you only vaguely know when it will end.)  I am considering full-time school and part-time school.  I'll likely apply to some of the top schools as a part-timer with the hope that they may have lower admissions standards in that pool of applicants.  In that case, I hope that I can get a firm to allow me to clerk...it's not so easy.  But school name appears to be the MOST important factor in law school choice and that's what I'm focused on with my apps.  

I generally don't think that time off is a good idea but I'm totally hypocritical in saying that because I benefitted from taking time off from academics, myself.  I worked for 2 years in a research lab before I realized that I wanted to go into biotech patent law and it was during the 2 years that I even realized biotech IP law existed.  In addition, because my research background is critical to getting a PhD, I feel much more mature as a scientist in comparison to my peers who generally have to deal with a steeper learning curve. So the time off helped me academically, gave me direction, and made me more mentally confident.

You don't have this situation.  You know what you want to do!  That is so great!  Use it to your advantage.  Were I in your shoes I wouldn't take time off because that is lost money and time.  There are only two things you can do with time off IMO: get more experience or take a lot of vacation.  If you are working on getting experience, then you are working and it's not really time off.  However, if you want to get your thoughts together to apply to schools or whatever, any sort of mental benefit, then it can be helpful.  I really enjoyed working in the real world, by the way, but it is not easy to study after a full day of work.  And I have to say that I was so tired most Fridays that I eliminated that day from the social calendar. On the other hand, if you are taking a long vacaction, I envy you big time.

Regarding relationships, a lot depends on the personality and the attitude of your wife.  At my graduate school there are a lot of married people, including PhDs, MDs, and MD/PhD students who have very little extra time and lots of academic responsibility.  I notice that these people become more focused by their family life.  While I may play on this forum during my free time, they rush straight home to do family stuff.  But their spouses have to be realistic, and you cannot ignore the personality of your wife and child and don't push them too hard.  You probably know what they can and can't take--just don't forget that.  Also, I notice that relationshps for people who have massive time commitments are better when the students communicate to their spouses exactly what they are up to.  It's almost as though they are teaching their spouse what they do in school!  I guess that also helps, because everyone who is married seems to do it.  It would definitely be beneficial if you can cut your commute time down as much as possible.  Going home for lunch could mean a lot!

I should mention that most people in professional schools who are single tend to date other people at their professional schools because they end up having so much in common in time commitments and understanding of those commitments.
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x-zibit

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Re: What is the best route at a career in patent l
« Reply #12 on: 07-07-05 at 12:05 pm »

The reason no one has heard of cardovo is because you are spelling it cardovo. The correct spelling is Cardozo.

These posts are annoying because people that are not attorneys and have never been to law school are giving advice to people about what it is like. Geez.
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PiP

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Re: What is the best route at a career in patent l
« Reply #13 on: 07-07-05 at 01:04 pm »

Yo, Pimp-My-Spelling, I mentioned Yeshiva as well.  I know it's a real difficult connection to make between Cardozo and Cardovo when you have only Manhattan to examine.  Do you actually know anything about the school because that would be more helpful?  I hope you don't go after the grammar in my previous posts...   By the way, you spelled "exhibit" wrong which is very confusing.  

Cardozo is in the Greenwich Village/MPD area.  Does anyone have an opinion on it?  It looks really quite excellent on paper to me.

BTW, I agree that it would be really f-ing awesome if some law students or attorneys would come on here and give good advice and have lively conversations.  They won't.  On the other hand, I hate people who think that law school, med school, or any professional school is some sort of radically different activity from every other bit of schooling you've had up to this point. It's not.  However, EVERY school is different somehow.  So if you want to know what it's like, take the advice of every viewbook and go sit in on classes.  

Why don't you read some law blogs by lawyers:
Bag and Baggage: is by an appellate IP lawyer, has been in the media a lot lately, and has semi-cool podcasts.  You can use the "Blawgs"[/i] links on the right side of the home page to find more blogtastic information, right from the law-student's'/-yer's/judge's mouth.  You can also go check out your local book store...

I think your threadcrapping is x-aspirating, x-zibit.  This is a forum for discussion and I would be thrilled if you would x-tend your posts to be more informative about the questions I asked rather than my spelling.
« Last Edit: 07-07-05 at 01:06 pm by PiP »
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x-tarded

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Re: What is the best route at a career in patent l
« Reply #14 on: 07-07-05 at 01:07 pm »

 :)
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