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[rh512]

I've been reading a few topics in this forum and feel that I might be able to obtain some advice here. I obtained my BS and MS in Electrical and Computer Engineering from UT (in 2005/2008) which is considered a T10 engineering school. My grades are respectable though my MS grades (>3.9) are much better than my BS (>3.4). I've been working as a Integrated Circuit design engineer for the last 6-7 years. My academic experience spans both hardware and software design. My current pay is in the 95-100K range (including bonuses)  in the Austin, TX region.

A little over a year ago, I "fell in love" with the idea of practicing law after taking a fundamentals course in the Legal Environment of Business. I aced the course and received a good recommendation from the class professor. However, as with all things I let the idea ruminate for a year or so. And now I feel ready to pursue a career in law. I am particularly interested in the patent and venture related branch of law given my love of technology and background. If I were to sum my career interests, it would be to enable entrepreneurs and businesses to flourish. And perhaps in the process, I could become an entrepreneur some day.

Now I'd like to ask for advice:

1. Is it a good idea to take the patent bar exam and become a patent agent to get a feel for the career before diving into law school? Is this a recommended path? I hear that most of the patent work is in prosecution which I could do as a patent agent. To me this is a good way to try the field though I do want to get into patent litigation since that sounds far more interesting that patent prosecution.

2. Given my background, how likely is it that, if I go to a top IP law school, such as Berkeley, I will be able to find a reasonable employment, given that I will have above average grades at Berkeley? By reasonable I mean >$150K in the west coast region. I will be accruing some debt by taking a few years off from the work force and need to make good money to pay that off.

3. Is there anything I can do other than score high on the LSATs that could improve my chances of getting into good law schools? Would a short stint as patent agent help that cause or hurt it? This ties in to question #1.

Thanks in advance.

[Robert K S]

No factor will matter as much to a law school than UGPA and LSAT, because these are baseline hurdles that must be crossed before the school factors in your work experience, advanced degrees, the difficulty of your major, the standing of your undergraduate institution, your service record/life experiences, and whatever other extraordinary accomplishments appear on your resume.  Your UGPA may already preclude you from admission to a top tier law school.  They will have a large enough pool of applicants who have both high UGPAs (>3.8) and high LSATs (>175).

It sucks, but that seems to be the way it works.  Have you checked out the Law School Probability Calculator?  (There's also at least one other site out there that has similar functionality.)  I think you can place a lot of credence in its results.

Given that, you might consider applying to lower-ranked law schools, accepting a full scholarship, and then working to be at or near the top in your class (law review, moot court, what-have-you).  You will still be impressive to employers--although perhaps still not as impressive as those graduating at the bottom of their class from top-tier law schools, tragically--and you won't have hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt burdening you and thereby limiting your career options (and many other aspects of your life).

I also think having a strong patent background by the time you graduate law school will be beneficial.  The only way to do this is through time on the job--3-5 years.  Accomplishments might include being able to list the patent numbers of issued applications which you personally wrote, and docket numbers of BPAI appeals which you won, having written the appeal briefs and reply briefs.  Involvement with CAFC appeals and/or having helped write SCOTUS petitions for cert would also look good.

You don't necessarily need to have passed the patent bar to get started on this track.  See if you can get hired to do patent work before you have your registration number.  The experience will be very useful in passing the bar exam.

If you're thinking the law school admissions system seems rigged against IP, I can't disagree.  Engineers who choose more difficult academic paths and for whom 4.0 GPAs are atypical are punished, while philosophy, English, political science, and history majors, who can't qualify for the patent bar, breeze into slots at top-tier schools.  Given your position, make lemons out of lemonade, and get out of law school with no debt and guaranteed employment by taking the advice I've outlined above.  Start doing patent work as soon as you can, and apply to law school when you're ready.

[rh512]

Thank you for your advice. It does seem unfortunate that the top law schools would give so much credence to the UGPA. But I understand that it is how the system works. In retrospect, I probably should have been more serious about my grades during my undergrad. My UGPA is not necessarily a true representation of what I am capable of, but it's what I have to work with.

I like your idea of applying to lesser ranked colleges and coming out with a low debt load. I have read stories of how many law students end up working in jobs that they did intend on doing just so that they could pay down their debts. As a result many suffer from poor work-life balance and poor career satisfaction.

I really appreciate your advice regarding patent experience. I'll start looking into it right away. So if I understand you, it would be wise for me to join a patent firm as a consultant of some sort to gain the patent experience. And then at some point I can consider the bar exam and applying for law school. Is that right?

[bleedingpen]

Thank you for your advice. It does seem unfortunate that the top law schools would give so much credence to the UGPA. But I understand that it is how the system works. In retrospect, I probably should have been more serious about my grades during my undergrad. My UGPA is not necessarily a true representation of what I am capable of, but it's what I have to work with.

I like your idea of applying to lesser ranked colleges and coming out with a low debt load. I have read stories of how many law students end up working in jobs that they did intend on doing just so that they could pay down their debts. As a result many suffer from poor work-life balance and poor career satisfaction.

I really appreciate your advice regarding patent experience. I'll start looking into it right away. So if I understand you, it would be wise for me to join a patent firm as a consultant of some sort to gain the patent experience. And then at some point I can consider the bar exam and applying for law school. Is that right?

And I bet none of those students had BS and MS degrees in EE from UT. 

Stay within the first tier schools if you can.

[patentatt]

1. Is it a good idea to take the patent bar exam and become a patent agent to get a feel for the career before diving into law school? Is this a recommended path? I hear that most of the patent work is in prosecution which I could do as a patent agent. To me this is a good way to try the field though I do want to get into patent litigation since that sounds far more interesting that patent prosecution.

Yes.  The benefits of taking the patent bar outweigh the costs.  There's no real downside to taking it, other than the small cost and inconvenience of registration and studying.

Just don't quit your day job.

Given my background, how likely is it that, if I go to a top IP law school, such as Berkeley, I will be able to find a reasonable employment, given that I will have above average grades at Berkeley? By reasonable I mean >$150K in the west coast region. I will be accruing some debt by taking a few years off from the work force and need to make good money to pay that off.

What the heck does "given that I will have above average grades at Berkeley" mean?  How is that given?

According to U.S. News, Berkeley is roughly the eighth/ninth best - meaning toughest - law school in the country.  Its students have an average undergrad GPA that is exceptionally high.  You could be a Merit Scholar, valedictorian of your high school, and a philosophy and pre-law double major, and still not be guaranteed to do better than the average Berkeley student.  Remember that even the best law students (and many law professors) will concede that law school grades have a significant randomness component.  And many or most "engineering students" find the "one long essay at the end of the semester with no practice" metric to be frustrating at best.

You're not even guaranteed to get into Berkeley, much less do above-average there!

Now, if you do get into Berkeley, and if you do above-average there, then yes, you will probably be able to get a good patent attorney job, and one that pays around $150k - since you seem so focused on salary (note that you are already make a very respectable amount of money).  But we've already made many "what if's" along the way.  You simply cannot assume that these things will happen.  Period.

3. Is there anything I can do other than score high on the LSATs that could improve my chances of getting into good law schools? Would a short stint as patent agent help that cause or hurt it? This ties in to question #1.

Patent agent or clerk work would provide marginal benefit in law school applications, which will be mostly focused on GPA and LSAT, and to a lesser extent work experience (of which you already have plenty).  But patent work provides another invaluable benefit: it lets you determine whether you would really enjoy working in patent law.  It's irrational to leap into three years of school, and ~$150k in debt, to switch into a career that aren't sure you will love.  Test the waters.

I strongly recommend that you work part time, or in an internship, doing patent law, simply to evaluate how you like it as a career.  Remember that jobs paying $150k+ usually require you to work huge amounts of hours. 

Here is my advice to you:

1. try to work in patent law without committing to law school or debt
2. focus more on obtaining the best financial aid (free money) package instead of obtaining the best law school pedigree (remember that pedigree matters less for patent attorneys - we're already special)
3. absolutely do not assume that you will take on debt to go to law school - in fact, do NOT take on any substantial debt.
4. look for a part time law school program that lets you keep your cushy job (or another job) - sometimes the admissions requirements are relaxed (esp. if you apply) early, but the degree is just as prestigious.
5. rid yourself of delusions about law school by reading all of the posts at http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/ by a tenured law professor at a tier 1 school (the posts only go back two months and are easy to read)

There is no reason for someone making as much as you, with your background, to take on debt to go to law school, much less the big $100-200k debt that is typical of law students.

Last thought - given your "entrepreneurial" spirit, it sounds like you are a more maverick and independent thinker, and not someone who would enjoy slaving away and taking orders for 10 years at a white shoe firm to eventually make partner.  But those are the firms that will pay you salaries like $150k.  Think about it.

[rh512]

Yes.  The benefits of taking the patent bar outweigh the costs.  There's no real downside to taking it, other than the small cost and inconvenience of registration and studying.

Just don't quit your day job.

What the heck does "given that I will have above average grades at Berkeley" mean?  How is that given?

According to U.S. News, Berkeley is roughly the eighth/ninth best - meaning toughest - law school in the country.  Its students have an average undergrad GPA that is exceptionally high.  You could be a Merit Scholar, valedictorian of your high school, and a philosophy and pre-law double major, and still not be guaranteed to do better than the average Berkeley student.  Remember that even the best law students (and many law professors) will concede that law school grades have a significant randomness component.  And many or most "engineering students" find the "one long essay at the end of the semester with no practice" metric to be frustrating at best.

You're not even guaranteed to get into Berkeley, much less do above-average there!

Now, if you do get into Berkeley, and if you do above-average there, then yes, you will probably be able to get a good patent attorney job, and one that pays around $150k - since you seem so focused on salary (note that you are already make a very respectable amount of money).  But we've already made many "what if's" along the way.  You simply cannot assume that these things will happen.  Period.

Patent agent or clerk work would provide marginal benefit in law school applications, which will be mostly focused on GPA and LSAT, and to a lesser extent work experience (of which you already have plenty).  But patent work provides another invaluable benefit: it lets you determine whether you would really enjoy working in patent law.  It's irrational to leap into three years of school, and ~$150k in debt, to switch into a career that aren't sure you will love.  Test the waters.

I strongly recommend that you work part time, or in an internship, doing patent law, simply to evaluate how you like it as a career.  Remember that jobs paying $150k+ usually require you to work huge amounts of hours. 

Here is my advice to you:

1. try to work in patent law without committing to law school or debt
2. focus more on obtaining the best financial aid (free money) package instead of obtaining the best law school pedigree (remember that pedigree matters less for patent attorneys - we're already special)
3. absolutely do not assume that you will take on debt to go to law school - in fact, do NOT take on any substantial debt.
4. look for a part time law school program that lets you keep your cushy job (or another job) - sometimes the admissions requirements are relaxed (esp. if you apply) early, but the degree is just as prestigious.
5. rid yourself of delusions about law school by reading all of the posts at http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/ by a tenured law professor at a tier 1 school (the posts only go back two months and are easy to read)

There is no reason for someone making as much as you, with your background, to take on debt to go to law school, much less the big $100-200k debt that is typical of law students.

Last thought - given your "entrepreneurial" spirit, it sounds like you are a more maverick and independent thinker, and not someone who would enjoy slaving away and taking orders for 10 years at a white shoe firm to eventually make partner.  But those are the firms that will pay you salaries like $150k.  Think about it.

Overall, I think you've provided great advice specially with regards to "testing the waters". I would like to rephrase my hypothetical about Berkeley. I believe I wanted to word it as a "what-if" but ended up putting it down as a "given". I have a lot of respect for Berkeley as an academic institution and I understand that admission is not a given, neither are good grades. Berkeley was one of my top choice schools for BS. At the time I found living in CA cost-prohibitive (I am an international student) and settled for UT. However, now I would like to practice in the west coast region and would ideally like to attend a UC school such as Berkeley.

The salary does not matter to me as much if I am not taking on any debt. If I go through law school without incurring much debt, I would much rather gain experience, build a good network and start my own practice. I understand it is not going to be easy but I have quite a lot of faith in myself.

I will check out the blog link that you've provided and research further into the topic of "pedigree". Thanks for the information.

[khazzah]

1. Is it a good idea to take the patent bar exam and become a patent agent to get a feel for the career before diving into law school? ... I do want to get into patent litigation since that sounds far more interesting that patent prosecution.

If you become a patent agent, you'll learn about *patent prosecution*. Your career goal -- "enable entrepreneurs and businesses to flourish" is much much broader than patent prosecution. Being a patent agent will only give you a taste of the one area which you don't think sounds very interesting.

So ... become a patent agent if you want some money, learn a new skill, and/or increase your chances of landing an associate position out of law school. Just don't do it thinking it will give you an idea of what your dream job ("enable entrepreneurs and businesses to flourish") will be like.

Though maybe you and I are thinking of completely different things when we say "a lawyer that enables entrepreneurs and businesses to flourish."

[Number_27]

With 3.4 and 3.9 for BSEE and MSEE respectively from a solid engineering school, if you get a high LSAT score of 170 or above my money is on you getting into Tier 1 school.  That is not even taking into account your work experience.

Go to the best school you can get into.