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[Anonymous]

For the Statistics class I teach, I would like to make some worksheets that ask students to perform repeated trials with certain items such as decks of cards, spinners, dice, random number generators on calculators, and so on.  Could these worksheets be considered copyright-infringing derivative works of these items? 

If so, what if I just verbally asked the students to perform the trials and then report their results to me?  Could we write down results or enter them in a calculator without fear of infringement?

[MYK]

Shirley you must be joking.

[Oh, Crud]

For the Statistics class I teach, I would like to make some worksheets that ask students to perform repeated trials with certain items such as decks of cards, spinners, dice, random number generators on calculators, and so on.  Could these worksheets be considered copyright-infringing derivative works of these items? 

If so, what if I just verbally asked the students to perform the trials and then report their results to me?  Could we write down results or enter them in a calculator without fear of infringement?

Shirley you must be joking.

No, I don't think he's joking (although it might look like it at first).  He's just an extremely scrupulous high school teacher.

Wish they all held themselves to such exacting standards.

But to explore the original question raised - to make an infringing derivative work, one normally has to copy at least some of the original and protectable elements of the underlying work.  I struggle to see how recording dice throws (even if the die is copyright protected, e.g.) or other essentially numeric data relating to use of the devices could be considered copying of any protectable elements.

Anyone else?

Buehler?

[MYK]

For the Statistics class I teach, I would like to make some worksheets that ask students to perform repeated trials with certain items such as decks of cards, spinners, dice, random number generators on calculators, and so on.  Could these worksheets be considered copyright-infringing derivative works of these items? 

If so, what if I just verbally asked the students to perform the trials and then report their results to me?  Could we write down results or enter them in a calculator without fear of infringement?

Shirley you must be joking.

No, I don't think he's joking (although it might look like it at first).  He's just an extremely scrupulous high school teacher.

Oh, come on:

But to explore the original question raised - to make an infringing derivative work, one normally has to copy at least some of the original and protectable elements of the underlying work.  I struggle to see how recording dice throws (even if the die is copyright protected, e.g.) or other essentially numeric data relating to use of the devices could be considered copying of any protectable elements.

Yeah, because it's so obvious that writing down which card came out of the deck might just be considered "derivative" of the artwork on the card.

OP, here's an exciting thought: use coins!!!  U.S. government works are not subject to copyright!  Just don't use coins from other countries or from "collectibles" manufacturers lest you be hauled into a British court through their long-arm torts rules!  After all, even aside from the potential "derivative works" claim, if your random results showed bias on the part of the foreign mint, it might be considered defamatory to report the results.  You wouldn't want to get sued for libel or slander in Britain;  it's expensive and unpleasant.  But if you're an Illinois or New York resident, the judgment might not be enforceable against you anyway, at least not if a state court decides so -- just never leave your home state again!!!!!  Well, unless it's to fly to whichever of the two you're not in.  But better hope you don't get served court papers while on the plane!

(Am I having too much fun now that we're back up again?)

[BobRoberts]

Copyright rights protect creative expression, and not ideas.  If you are just referring generically to dice and to cards, there should not be an issue (i.e., referring to playing cards generically is fine).  If you are handing out an instruction sheet that reproduces a particular playing card artwork (i.e., an illustration of the playing card) then you'd be a bit closer, but I would guess that it would be a Fair Use under Copyright (though Fair Use can be a complex analysis and this 'analysis' should NOT be relied on). 

If you are referring specifically to a particular brand of cards or dice (which you are probably not), then it would more be in the realm of Trademark rights (i.e., use Hoyle playing cards, or Bicycle cards).  However, it would be a fair use or descriptive use of the trademark  and would not likely pose a problem.

Good luck!

[BobRoberts]

Re: entering information, ideas and basic information is not protectable by copyright.  Numbers, words, short phrases, etc are considered unprotectable building blocks and would be prohibited in and of themselves from copyright protection.  Thus you are free to enter information as you like.  If you are directly copying anothers creative expression of ideas, then that would be a different story.  So merely entering information into a calculator for your statistics class should pose no problem.

I think that it is great that you are making sure that you do not violate Intellectual Property Rights before you proceed.  I've always thought that the only stupid question is the one not asked...