Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[mighty]

I contacted an attorney who said a provisional would still cost the same, around 10,000 dollars. She said provisionals are 'quick and dirty' and doesn't like to do them, so a provisional with her would entail the full write-up anyway. Then she said that she doesn't do a technical write-up explanation of the invention, that I would have to have that already. So, what is the attorney for? Should I be expected to do my own technical description? I feel like that would be a bad idea.

Can I really submit drawings without a physical working model?

Also, she said she would charge 75 dollars for a NDA, but that all it is is fill-in-the-blank. Can I just find a copy on the internet and fill in the blanks? If so, where do I find a good copy?

And, she seemed to think a provisional would offer me no protection. Is that true?

[bleedingpen]

That's an attorney that just doesn't want to do provisionals.  That is his/her prerogative. 

As to your questions, no you do not normally need a working model. 

You can probably find an NDA online that will probably be OK. 

Provisionals are a stake in the ground if properly prepared and fully supporting a later filed non-provisional.  Nothing more, nothing less. 

[khazzah]

And, she seemed to think a provisional would offer me no protection. Is that true?

If you search on this forum for the keyword "provisional", say for postings in the last 6 months, you will find plenty of discussion about the pros and cons of provisionals. Mostly cons. 

[mighty]

thanks guys

[Robert K S]

mighty, I'm much less hard on the usefulness of provisionals than some of my colleagues here.

If you were to fully and enablingly describe your invention and provide appropriate black & white drawings (preferably line drawings, but it doesn't really matter that much for provisional purposes, just as long as once converted to black & white the drawings are still legible), and, also preferably, take care to describe how your invention is distinguished over the prior art, you are probably capable of drafting the provisional application yourself without paying an attorney a big fee.

If you choose to go this route, you would do well to read a copy of Patent It Yourself: http://www.nolo.com/products/patent-it-yourself-PAT.html

To my mind, the key is, when you file your non-provisional, and the patent examiner asks, "Where in the provisional disclosure is this or that feature of the invention supported?  Where do you say this or that?"--you can point to the provisional and say, "Right here!  I talked about it here!  I drew it here!  Look!  It's all right there!"

[rts]

I contacted an attorney who said a provisional would still cost the same, around 10,000 dollars. She said provisionals are 'quick and dirty' and doesn't like to do them, so a provisional with her would entail the full write-up anyway. Then she said that she doesn't do a technical write-up explanation of the invention, that I would have to have that already. So, what is the attorney for? Should I be expected to do my own technical description? I feel like that would be a bad idea.

If the bolded section is indeed true and not a misunderstanding, then find someone else. For $10k she should be writing it all based on whatever material you currently have and/or based on an interview with you where you disclose it verbally.

[Wiscagent]

Many attorneys don't like to work with solo inventors.  The attorney may have been stung by inventors (or heard from stories from other attorneys) who expected far more than the typical corporate customer.

Some attorneys have the perception that working with an individual inventor can involve a lot more time and frustration than working with the typical corporate client, and the individual is more likely to sue. 

One way to deal with that perception is for the attorney to "high ball" the bid.  If you're willing to pay $10,000 and do most of the work, then she'll take the chance.  If you're not willing to pay $10,000, she doesn't mind watching you walk out the door.

[bleedingpen]

Many attorneys don't like to work with solo inventors.  The attorney may have been stung by inventors (or heard from stories from other attorneys) who expected far more than the typical corporate customer.

Some attorneys have the perception that working with an individual inventor can involve a lot more time and frustration than working with the typical corporate client, and the individual is more likely to sue. 

One way to deal with that perception is for the attorney to "high ball" the bid.  If you're willing to pay $10,000 and do most of the work, then she'll take the chance.  If you're not willing to pay $10,000, she doesn't mind watching you walk out the door.

Not a perception.  This is an absolute truth. 

[khazzah]

Then [the attorney] said that she doesn't do a technical write-up explanation of the invention, that I would have to have that already. So, what is the attorney for? Should I be expected to do my own technical description?

For $10k she should be writing it all based on whatever material you currently have and/or based on an interview with you where you disclose it verbally.

Disagree. I agree that 10K is in line with a "full price patent utility application" rather than a "quick and dirty provisional." But I would have no qualms requesting a technical description from the inventor as part of the utility application process.

That is, just because you're paying full price doesn't mean the best starting point is a one-sentence back-of-the-napkin "I have an idea" disclosure. For me, the best starting point is usually some sort of written technical description.  I usually supplement that with a conversation in which I ask focused questions and give the inventor plenty of opportunity to expand/expound. But I still like to have a written document to serve as a springboard for the conversation.

[rwcltn]

$10,000 for a provisional? And she wants you to write the specification?? WTF do you need her for then??? And on top of it she said it would be quick and dirty. She sounds like a real POS and scam artist. Imagine the scams she would run on you for a non provisional. Report her to the PTO.

[NJ Patent1]

mighty:  10K is on the high side, but not totally outrageous in my view.  There are plenty of posts on the site concerning provisionals and misconceptions concerning them held by non-lawyers.  If you are serious about your invention, a provisional will only be worth what it would have been worth if it were a full regular utility application filed under section 111(a).  I - and I think most posters on this site - couldn't draft a decent application for you without a lot of input from you.  What's necessary? What is optional but preferred?  How could one make it and use it?  Do you really expect a patent attorney to know all this stuff for you?  They would invest time drawing this information out from you. ("A lawyer's time is his stock in trade" Abraham Lincoln - couldn't resist, everybody quotes lincoln).
 
If you ask a patent attorney to turn your naked back-of-the-napkin "idea" into a described and enabled "invention", your attorney may very well wind-up your coinventor in law, assigning-over to you of course.  Even if you have some good drawings in a mechanical case, thought and time are required to properly reduce the figures to words.  "Quick-and-dirty" provisionals are just that, with emphasis on the "dirty".  I can only quote JimIvey "friends don't let friends file provisionals".  Surf the net, there are lots of ads for 2 to 2.5k provisionals.  In any event, get some other proposals and good luck!

[mighty]

thanks all.
She didn't seem to take me seriously, which I understand. I'm sure the vast majority of people with an idea don't make it too far.
Anyway, I understand that it can be dangerous to write up your own provisional, but I have no other option, as I see it. I'm going to do it myself. I've found a course on the process, and I've got the next 5 days off to study and come up with a sound explanation and some drawings. Once I file it, I have a professor at the university who will get his engineering students to work on a prototype for me, with NDA's and all. All I have to pay for is materials. Then I'll spend the next few months working on writing up a real non-provisional.

Am I naive to think I can so this myself, or, if I put in the time, and if, given enough time, I have a decent enough mind to understand what I study about it, could I really do this? And what about prosecution? Are a few months enough time to figure this one specific thing out?

I must admit, I'm a bit bitter about how difficult the process seems to be, but I'm excited to try to get around the need for an attorney. After all, they're just people like me, and they had to learn it somewhere. I can learn it, too.

[bleedingpen]

I must admit, I'm a bit bitter about how difficult the process seems to be, but I'm excited to try to get around the need for an attorney. After all, they're just people like me, and they had to learn it somewhere. I can learn it, too.

Most attorneys' first few pieces of work-product were/are crap.  Yes they had to learn from somewhere, but it came with a great deal of oversight from more experienced professionals. 

[still_learnin]

Are a few months enough time to figure this one specific thing out?

If you want an enforceable patent with decent claim scope... No.

To echo bleedingpen's earlier comment, patent drafting is an art/skill that comes from writing an app, getting feedback, writing a better app, getting more feedback, ad infinitum. Studying on your own for 3 months isn't a replacement for the feedback process. And I'm not saying this because you're pro se. The same applies to freshly minted attorneys or agents. We all start from the same place: ground zero.

But, as with most things, it really depends on what your goals are. If you just want a serial number and/or a published patent application, then sure, write it yourself.

[Wiscagent]

But, as with most things, it really depends on what your goals are. If you just want a serial number and/or a published patent application, then sure, write it yourself.

Another reason to file a patent application is that when you are trying to get investors, a common question is "Have you filed a patent application on this?"  And if you can respond with an honest "Yes", that might help convince a potential investor to chip in a few bucks.