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[Nopistons]

Hi all, I've lurked for a bit here, but I thought I might be able to get some more specific advice if I posted. Sooo, any advice you can spare for this newb would be greatly appreciated.

I'm an incoming freshman with an intended chemistry major with a physics or math minor. I did pretty well in HS (4.08/3.8 gpa n 2220 sat) but I decided to go to my state school (Indiana University) in large part because its full-ride; if you've never heard of it, its got a so-so reputation.

At this point, I don't really care whether patent agent or attorney, if the salary is comparable (I just dont want to make much less than I would doing chemE). From what I've gleaned, the jobs seem pretty similar with the latter having mainly more prestige and salary potential and might be involved in litigation.

I've seen a lot of differing opinions on whether a bachelors versus masters is necessary to get a good job as a patent agent and whether its even possible without an EE degree or a graduate degree in biotech or something the like. What would be the chances for a chem BS?

As to the attorney option, it seems all gloom and doom for recent law grads. It seems like you can only get a job if you're top 50% at a T14 or top 10% elsewhere. What are there like 12 new lawyers a year? I mean all of these other applicants and grad students are bright people; is it prudent to bank on these select few spots?

Dont take this as laziness or complaining that I'll have to work hard. I dont mind hard work, but I'm afraid of making a lengthy and expensive investment only to not find a real job. It might seem a little early to be planning this, but Im trying to find out if this is a feasible career or whether to settle for something else. I guess bottom line is what kind of chances does someone not coming out of columbia or Harvard undergrad, with a (ideally) good undergrad GPA in the hard sciences have? And what is the best route to get there?

[Wiscagent]

It might seem a little early to be planning this, ...

It is very early to plan your post-graduate education or career.  Work hard in your classes and get good grades.  Try a variety of classes outside of your major.  Get involved in extra-curricular activities.  Enjoy the social life at Indiana.  Do that stuff for two or three years, then consider your career options.

Re patent attorney / patent agent, according to the USPTO, there are 10279 active agents and 31061 active attorneys.  And many of those agents are individuals who are in law school or plan to attend law school.  So the usual route to patent law is to become an attorney.  Most of the successfully agents I have worked with either have extensive industrial experience and/or have a PhD in their specialty.  It is unusual for a someone with only a bachelor's degree and little or no industrial experience to be a successful agent.

[bleedingpen]

Hi all, I've lurked for a bit here, but I thought I might be able to get some more specific advice if I posted. Sooo, any advice you can spare for this newb would be greatly appreciated.

I'm an incoming freshman with an intended chemistry major with a physics or math minor. I did pretty well in HS (4.08/3.8 gpa n 2220 sat) but I decided to go to my state school (Indiana University) in large part because its full-ride; if you've never heard of it, its got a so-so reputation.

At this point, I don't really care whether patent agent or attorney, if the salary is comparable (I just dont want to make much less than I would doing chemE). From what I've gleaned, the jobs seem pretty similar with the latter having mainly more prestige and salary potential and might be involved in litigation.

I've seen a lot of differing opinions on whether a bachelors versus masters is necessary to get a good job as a patent agent and whether its even possible without an EE degree or a graduate degree in biotech or something the like. What would be the chances for a chem BS?

As to the attorney option, it seems all gloom and doom for recent law grads. It seems like you can only get a job if you're top 50% at a T14 or top 10% elsewhere. What are there like 12 new lawyers a year? I mean all of these other applicants and grad students are bright people; is it prudent to bank on these select few spots?

Dont take this as laziness or complaining that I'll have to work hard. I dont mind hard work, but I'm afraid of making a lengthy and expensive investment only to not find a real job. It might seem a little early to be planning this, but Im trying to find out if this is a feasible career or whether to settle for something else. I guess bottom line is what kind of chances does someone not coming out of columbia or Harvard undergrad, with a (ideally) good undergrad GPA in the hard sciences have? And what is the best route to get there?

These new SAT scores always trip me up.

[Wiscagent]

I did pretty well in HS (4.08/3.8 gpa n 2220 sat) but I decided to go to my state school (Indiana University)

bleedingpen,

There were a few odd things in Nopistons' note.
 - I didn't want to ask how to get a 2200 on the SAT out of a maximum of 1600. 
 - I didn't want to ask how to get 4.08 out of a maximum of 4.0.  Or was the GPA 4.08/3.8 = 1.07? 
 - I certainly didn't want to ask about settling for Indiana University.  Just settling?  Show some pride.

[Nopistons]

thanks for the info, wasecage; especially about the agents not hardly ever having only bachelors in your experience. As to the confusion about sat and gpa, I guess you guys dont get a lot of highschoolers around here, so that makes sense. 4.08/3.8 refers to weighted/unweighted GPA and the sat is now out of 2400 (and by now I mean since 2005, lol) it would be a 1570 old score. I dont think I used the word settling, but as for pride, I'm not really sure what you mean; i mean they offer scholarships to students who otherwise might not go there in order to entice them to. I love the school, but im trying to be realistic.

[bleedingpen]

Richard,

your age is showing

The new SAT score is out of 2400 points as there is a new section (writing?).  So an average score is now a 1500 (which would be fantastic under the old test)

And High Schools have been giving out GPAs of 5 and 6 in various classes for easily the past 15 years for Honors and advanced classes. 

As to the OP, you must have missed a few points on the math section.     By my calculations, a 2200 on the new test scales to a 1480 on the old one and not a 1570. 

As to your questions, I can name easily a dozen recent law grads with BS Chem/Biology that can't even sniff an interview.  You take that for what it is worth. 

[lawyer2be]

@bleedingpen wow it's that bad for bs chem/bio?

[bleedingpen]

@bleedingpen wow it's that bad for bs chem/bio?

Yeah, talking bs chem/bio from T1 schools and in the upper half of their class. 

[lawyer2be]

Is it because of the economy?
Why do some partner profiles I see in law firms have BS Chem/Bio (actually I've seen quite a few)

[Wiscagent]

Richard,

your age is showing

No doubt about that.  My "baby" graduated from high school more than 10 years ago.

But I still think my advice on this matter is generally sound.  Do well in college, enjoy a variety of activities, and don't worry about life after college until your junior year.

It concerns me when I hear about a college kid who says their major is pre-med or pre-law.  A college student, especially for the first couple of years should be exploring options.  Sure, some of us like the fine or performing arts, others excel at math, and others thrive in literature, and some feel at home in a chem or bio lab.  But to start college being sure that you want a career in some narrow specialty is likely to result in disappointment.

On Monday my 5-year old grandson may tell me he wants to be a firefighter, on Tuesday he may want to be a airplane pilot, and on Wednesday he wants to be super hero.  No problem.  But if when he's 18 he's determined to be an orthopedic surgeon, that would bother me.

[bleedingpen]

Is it because of the economy?

No.  That is the market now in the life sciences field.

Why do some partner profiles I see in law firms have BS Chem/Bio (actually I've seen quite a few)

Because they got into patent law before the life sciences field *required* a masters or preferably a PhD.

[bald & chained]

Hear, hear.  But maybe the kid has a relative or a family friend who's a patent attorney, so he's been hearing about how great Jack's been doing every Thanksgiving and has a goal in mind.  My college interviewer was a patent attorney and he sufficiently impressed me that I looked more into that field when I actually got to college, although then I shelved the whole idea for a number of years after graduation.  Incidentally, there was a guy in my high school who (completely seriously) was telling everyone that he'd be a proctologist, just like his uncle.... Don't ask.  Also not sure whether he achieved his goal.

Richard,

your age is showing

No doubt about that.  My "baby" graduated from high school more than 10 years ago.

But I still think my advice on this matter is generally sound.  Do well in college, enjoy a variety of activities, and don't worry about life after college until your junior year.

It concerns me when I hear about a college kid who says their major is pre-med or pre-law.  A college student, especially for the first couple of years should be exploring options.  Sure, some of us like the fine or performing arts, others excel at math, and others thrive in literature, and some feel at home in a chem or bio lab.  But to start college being sure that you want a career in some narrow specialty is likely to result in disappointment.

On Monday my 5-year old grandson may tell me he wants to be a firefighter, on Tuesday he may want to be a airplane pilot, and on Wednesday he wants to be super hero.  No problem.  But if when he's 18 he's determined to be an orthopedic surgeon, that would bother me.

[bald & chained]

I am not in that art, but from what I keep hearing, the market has been like this for many years, possibly over a decade.  But it always seems like fresh news to all the aspiring 2Ls with BS in Bio, year after year. A while back, two of my friends without PhDs in Bio could not even get an interview.  Can't imagine things got any better in the last several years.  Seems like you must have a PhD now to do patent prosecution in life sciences, especially if you go to a run-of-the mill law school.  That said, I imagine that a JD from prestigious law school like Harvard will get you interviews, even without a PhD.

Is it because of the economy?

No.  That is the market now in the life sciences field.