Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Apogee]

Hello all,

I am hoping to receive some thoughts from those who are working in my consideration of whether or not to continue law school.  I have finished my first year at a top 20 law school, but did incredibly poorly (ending the year with a B- average).  The second semester, I did talk to professors and attempted to get information on how to improve though the comments generally were vague and not very helpful. Part of this whole issue is my relatively slower composition typing (~900-1000 words per hour) and not identifying and expanding on the "focus issues" enough.  The only hope I would have is to take an exam prep course this year and hope I can get to at least a B average. 

The issue is I will borrow a significant amount for law school and I'm not sure if I should just cut my losses.  This summer, I am interning in a legal department and find the actual practice of law to be interesting and fun.  My background is a BS ME from Berkeley but I do not have much work experience.  I was an engineering intern during undergrad and worked for a few months in the year I took off between undergrad and law school. 

Are there credible career options for those in my low grades situation, or is it financially ruinous to continue?  I do realize that the "biglaw" boat has sailed but I am looking more towards small to medium firms.  I see no point to continue if my options will likely be $50k/year when I can stem my loss and look for work. 

 I have five interviews lined up for OCI season, but, with the exception of one, they have not seen my grades.  I think it unlikely that I will get any callbacks or offers with my grades.  The question comes down to whether to spend money on another year on the gamble of getting a 2L summer job.

I will definitely be weighing thoughts "from the field" as I head towards the new semester and make the final call.

Thanks.

[bleedingpen]

I think you are overreacting.  I am not sure that a B- is incredibly poor. 

Given your background at Berkley and the fact that you are at a top 20 school, I think you will do fine.  Just keep your options open, network, and do the best that you can. 

[OMG IP]

Unless you really want to be a patent attorney, your description doesn't offer employers anything they don't see 100 times a day from more qualified candidates.  WHat can you do to set yourself apart?  Pass the patent bar, do some pro bono, etc...

If you're not willing to do everything and anything to succeed, then I think you're right... best to cut your losses.

[AnotherCog]

Hello all,

I am hoping to receive some thoughts from those who are working in my consideration of whether or not to continue law school.  I have finished my first year at a top 20 law school, but did incredibly poorly (ending the year with a B- average).  The second semester, I did talk to professors and attempted to get information on how to improve though the comments generally were vague and not very helpful. Part of this whole issue is my relatively slower composition typing (~900-1000 words per hour) and not identifying and expanding on the "focus issues" enough.  The only hope I would have is to take an exam prep course this year and hope I can get to at least a B average. 

The issue is I will borrow a significant amount for law school and I'm not sure if I should just cut my losses.  This summer, I am interning in a legal department and find the actual practice of law to be interesting and fun.  My background is a BS ME from Berkeley but I do not have much work experience.  I was an engineering intern during undergrad and worked for a few months in the year I took off between undergrad and law school. 

IMO, you should cut your losses.  Go work as an engineer for a year or two and reassess your goals.  If you're still really driven to do patent law, you can always reapply to a different law school in a few years to reset you GPA.

Are there credible career options for those in my low grades situation, or is it financially ruinous to continue?  I do realize that the "biglaw" boat has sailed but I am looking more towards small to medium firms.  I see no point to continue if my options will likely be $50k/year when I can stem my loss and look for work. 

Financially ruinous may be a bit of an exaggeration, but I wouldn't say that continuing on your current path is your best bet, either.  You're probably right: the salary difference between being an engineer and an associate at a smaller firm won't offset the tremendous cost of law school (plus the loss of income for the next two years).  If you have a burning desire to be a patent attorney, then go for it.  If you're doing it for a better salary/lifestyle, you're nuts.

I have five interviews lined up for OCI season, but, with the exception of one, they have not seen my grades.  I think it unlikely that I will get any callbacks or offers with my grades.  The question comes down to whether to spend money on another year on the gamble of getting a 2L summer job.

Here's something that your career services department probably doesn't tell you: they likely require each firm that participates in OCI to conduct X number of interviews, regardless of whether or not they're actually interested in all of the candidates.  For example, a firm may really be interested in 2-3 people, but have to give OCI interviews to 20.  It makes career services seem like they're doing more than they actually are.  I'm not saying that this applies to you, but it's something to consider when evaluating your actual job prospects.

I will definitely be weighing thoughts "from the field" as I head towards the new semester and make the final call.

Thanks.

[bleedingpen]

Here's something that your career services department probably doesn't tell you: they likely require each firm that participates in OCI to conduct X number of interviews, regardless of whether or not they're actually interested in all of the candidates.  For example, a firm may really be interested in 2-3 people, but have to give OCI interviews to 20.  It makes career services seem like they're doing more than they actually are.  I'm not saying that this applies to you, but it's something to consider when evaluating your actual job prospects.

I have interviewed through OCI and never had to interview a certain amount of applicants.  Not saying it doesn't happen, just not my experience.

With that said, I have interviewed several candidates that we had little interest in while targeting 2-3 certain applicants.  But I was upfront with those other candidates. 

[AnotherCog]

Here's something that your career services department probably doesn't tell you: they likely require each firm that participates in OCI to conduct X number of interviews, regardless of whether or not they're actually interested in all of the candidates.  For example, a firm may really be interested in 2-3 people, but have to give OCI interviews to 20.  It makes career services seem like they're doing more than they actually are.  I'm not saying that this applies to you, but it's something to consider when evaluating your actual job prospects.

I have interviewed through OCI and never had to interview a certain amount of applicants.  Not saying it doesn't happen, just not my experience.

With that said, I have interviewed several candidates that we had little interest in while targeting 2-3 certain applicants.  But I was upfront with those other candidates. 

Admittedly, I don't do interviews - I'm basing most of my info on a conversation with a law school buddy's complaint about the process.
(He wanted to meet for a beer earlier, but had to interview a number of students that didn't stand a chance...)

I think the big distinction is whether or not the school is a lottery or preselect school.  In a pure lottery system, who gets an interview is a function of the students ranking the firms in which they're interested.  In a preselect system, firms get to sift through resumes and pick the students they want to interview.  There's also the hybrid approach - for example, a firm gets to select 75% of the candidates via preselect and the other 25% come from a lottery. 

[bleedingpen]

Here's something that your career services department probably doesn't tell you: they likely require each firm that participates in OCI to conduct X number of interviews, regardless of whether or not they're actually interested in all of the candidates.  For example, a firm may really be interested in 2-3 people, but have to give OCI interviews to 20.  It makes career services seem like they're doing more than they actually are.  I'm not saying that this applies to you, but it's something to consider when evaluating your actual job prospects.

I have interviewed through OCI and never had to interview a certain amount of applicants.  Not saying it doesn't happen, just not my experience.

With that said, I have interviewed several candidates that we had little interest in while targeting 2-3 certain applicants.  But I was upfront with those other candidates. 

Admittedly, I don't do interviews - I'm basing most of my info on a conversation with a law school buddy's complaint about the process.
(He wanted to meet for a beer earlier, but had to interview a number of students that didn't stand a chance...)

I think the big distinction is whether or not the school is a lottery or preselect school.  In a pure lottery system, who gets an interview is a function of the students ranking the firms in which they're interested.  In a preselect system, firms get to sift through resumes and pick the students they want to interview.  There's also the hybrid approach - for example, a firm gets to select 75% of the candidates via preselect and the other 25% come from a lottery. 

I have always been able to sort through resumes and pick the ones that I want.  I wouldn't agree to this lottery system.  Screw that.

[Apogee]

I think you are overreacting.  I am not sure that a B- is incredibly poor. 

Given your background at Berkley and the fact that you are at a top 20 school, I think you will do fine.  Just keep your options open, network, and do the best that you can. 

Unless you really want to be a patent attorney, your description doesn't offer employers anything they don't see 100 times a day from more qualified candidates.  WHat can you do to set yourself apart?  Pass the patent bar, do some pro bono, etc...
If you're not willing to do everything and anything to succeed, then I think you're right... best to cut your losses.

IMO, you should cut your losses.  Go work as an engineer for a year or two and reassess your goals.  If you're still really driven to do patent law, you can always reapply to a different law school in a few years to reset you GPA.

Thanks for your opinions on the issue.  They will definitely be considered in the coming month as I make a decision.  Respectfully, I do not believe the issue is a matter of drive or willingness to work harder.  My concern is trying to get a numerical understanding of how poor grades will comport with salaries in the practice.  I have been working this summer 9-5 and then taking night classes from 6-9 in an attempt to raise my grades.  I have not had anywhere near enough time to adequately prepare for the patent bar when I could invest that time into either work or directly to my classes.  I will be attempting to pass the patent bar, but it is unlikely to happen before interviews.    

Financially ruinous may be a bit of an exaggeration, but I wouldn't say that continuing on your current path is your best bet, either.  You're probably right: the salary difference between being an engineer and an associate at a smaller firm won't offset the tremendous cost of law school (plus the loss of income for the next two years).  If you have a burning desire to be a patent attorney, then go for it.  If you're doing it for a better salary/lifestyle, you're nuts.

I do believe I would enjoy a career in patent law much more than the engineering I have experienced so far.  The problem with where I would likely head back is there is not much room for advancement after a certain point.  I am not necessarily doing it for salary or lifestyle, but I am concerned at not being able to pay off ~$200k debt within 10 years of graduating (yes, I am a super genius for turning down scholly money to move up the rankings).  Being able to find a job that pays $80k or so would be more than enough for me.  My largest concern is that my grades stick me into a 45k a year job where, after taxes and living expenses, the debt is difficult to manage. 

Currently, one of the sticking points for me against a future reset is the lost time, additional debt (another year tacked on), and my doubt of getting back into a similar school since I would need to report my previous transcript.

Here's something that your career services department probably doesn't tell you: they likely require each firm that participates in OCI to conduct X number of interviews, regardless of whether or not they're actually interested in all of the candidates.  For example, a firm may really be interested in 2-3 people, but have to give OCI interviews to 20.  It makes career services seem like they're doing more than they actually are.  I'm not saying that this applies to you, but it's something to consider when evaluating your actual job prospects.

I have heard this through the rumor mill, but I feel like I shot myself in the foot with grades anyways.  I am fairly pragmatic, and do not expect to get anything out of OCI.  Both the fair where I have a few interviews and the school OCI use pre-select.  After my grades, I expect to get shut out at OCI.  I am still writing cover letters and bidding on anywhere that will accept me.  I will also be attempting the direct mails to small firms that do not participate in OCIs. 

Thanks again for everyone's thoughts.

[bald & chained]

What's the rank for a B- average in your school?  Is it bottom 20% or something?  Just curious because it doesn't sound like such a horrible GPA, yet you appear very concerned.  I am guessing the curve in your school is around B+, in which case B- isn't so hot after all.  Still, 45K sounds really low for a small patent shop.  I'd imagine that you could get at least 70-80K in a small firm, assuming you can get a job in the first place.

[Apogee]

What's the rank for a B- average in your school?  Is it bottom 20% or something?  Just curious because it doesn't sound like such a horrible GPA, yet you appear very concerned.  I am guessing the curve in your school is around B+, in which case B- isn't so hot after all.  Still, 45K sounds really low for a small patent shop.  I'd imagine that you could get at least 70-80K in a small firm, assuming you can get a job in the first place.

The "get a job" is the biggest worry of mine.  I would like to think I can improve but who knows.  I do not have an actual ranking, but my guess would be there about there.  The curve is around a B+ and grades first year are approximately split 25/50/25 across the range from A to C with few actual failing grades. 

[InMuenchen]

Apogee,

My opinion is inbetween the first posts from OMG IP and bleeding pin.  I have an EE background (but not an EE degree) and went to a top 20 school.  I too had a B/B- average after the first year and graduated with a 3.28 in 2008.

It was not easy getting a job, but there were certainly possibilities, even in the summer of 2008.  The demand for mechanical is not as strong as EE, but I certainly see job ads asking for ME, and I think your undergrad gives you a significant boost.

That said, you may need to cast a wide net (even nation wide) before you get a bite.  Sorry to mix fishing metaphors.  In any case, there is no doubt that you are taking a gamble.  Several of my classmates, all non IP though, have had tough starts in the law field.

And then there is the student loan issue.  I graduated with 150k+.  Even though I made around 85k and 100k my first two years, most of my discretionary income was gobbled up by student loans.  I also live in an expensive European city, which doesn't help.

2011 is the year that I'm finally making significant headway with my student loans, but I am also receiving half of my billables (AFAIK, rare for a 3rd year associate to earn) and currently the euro/dollar exchange rate is favorable (which could change at any time).  My gamble paid off, but it took until 2011.

To sum up my meandering statements, would you be happy as an engineer? I knew that I would not.  If you can swing an engineering job, then there is no reason that you cannot save up for law school.  Otherwise, be prepaired to hustle for a job.

[Oh, Crud]

... This summer, I am interning in a legal department and find the actual practice of law to be interesting and fun.  My background is a BS ME from Berkeley but I do not have much work experience.  I was an engineering intern during undergrad and worked for a few months in the year I took off between undergrad and law school. 

Are there credible career options for those in my low grades situation, or is it financially ruinous to continue?  ...

Well, despite your "low grades" (which do not sound so low to me, but then my LS had a mandatory curve to middle C), you somehow managed to wangle what sounds like an in-house legal department summer internship?  How did you work that?  Unless you're a charity case, you must have impressed someone.  And are you currently impressing the heck out of them on a daily basis?  Do you think there could be some follow-up from this job, like another internship next year? 

Like some have already mentioned, I doubt jobs will be in the 50K range, more like the 70-80K for small firms as mentioned above, assuming you can land a job.  That's why I'm interested in how you got the current internship.  It doesn't seem like a common occurrence to me.  But then maybe I'm out of the loop.

And how were your UG grades?  At least during better economic times, few firms outside of biglaw cared a whole lot about LS grades as long as they weren't bottom barrel, but did care about the engineering grades.

Sorry for going off topic on you here, but have you taken a very hard look at the amount of money you're borrowing?  $200K may be what the financial aid folks will tell you that you are permitted to borrow, but do you really, really need all of it?  I'm just barely getting accustomed to posters speaking of $120-150K debt, then comes the highest point ("Apogee", one might say  ) to shock me at $200K.

[bleedingpen]

Sorry for going off topic on you here, but have you taken a very hard look at the amount of money you're borrowing?  $200K may be what the financial aid folks will tell you that you are permitted to borrow, but do you really, really need all of it?  I'm just barely getting accustomed to posters speaking of $120-150K debt, then comes the highest point ("Apogee", one might say  ) to shock me at $200K.

I know plenty of grads with 250k or more in loans and they ended up working as assistant DAs and other crap jobs like that. 

Law school is expensive anywhere you go.  If you are at a place with 30k in tuition, then you are going to rack up 100k with interest in tuition only.  Then there is $300-$400 worth of books each semester times 6 semesters.  Then housing, food, etc. 

I can see how it adds up quickly. 

[Oh, Crud]

...plenty of grads with 250k or more in loans and ... ...at a place with 30k in tuition, then you are going to rack up 100k with interest in tuition only.  Then there is $300-$400 worth of books each semester times 6 semesters.  Then housing, food, etc. 

Yeah, but... ...what you've just described amounts to borrowing about $4k per month for the "housing, food, etc." component (using 36 months as the basis).   


Guess I'm just too old to adjust my thinking... hardening of the arteries of the gray matter...

[bleedingpen]

...plenty of grads with 250k or more in loans and ... ...at a place with 30k in tuition, then you are going to rack up 100k with interest in tuition only.  Then there is $300-$400 worth of books each semester times 6 semesters.  Then housing, food, etc. 

Yeah, but... ...what you've just described amounts to borrowing about $4k per month for the "housing, food, etc." component (using 36 months as the basis).   


Guess I'm just too old to adjust my thinking... hardening of the arteries of the gray matter...

Everyone I know with that kindof debt load carried some over from undergrad.  Sorry that wasn't clear.