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Author Topic: Is Patent Law for me?  (Read 1471 times)

kepler

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Is Patent Law for me?
« on: 07-10-11 at 02:43 pm »

Hi All,

I've been lurking on the forums for a while now, reading about a career in Patent Law. I think I have a pretty good idea about some of the issues at a high level, but I'm still not 100% sure it would be a good career for me.

About me: I'm currently between my first and second years of MS in ECE, which I'm getting from a Top5 school in the field. Before this I got my BS in EECS from another Top 5 school. I've had several internships in software/hardware companies. I think I can get into a lower-end T14 Law school if I apply myself.

I think I would be happy working in industry as an engineer. However, there are some things I don't like about a career in engineering:

1. Getting ahead is all about specialization; I like learning about many different technologies, but to move up I feel you need to spend your career becoming an expert in a specific niche. I feel like being a patent attorney will allow me to learn about a wide variety of fields.

2. The pay levels out relatively low; the most I can hope for at the end of my career as an engineer doing product development is around 150k, unless I go into senior management or become a technical fellow. According to some posts, I would make more than that as a fresh attorney in biglaw.

The only thing I'm concerned about is the day-to-day work. I very much enjoy the typical work of an engineer; designing systems to solve problems. I think I would become bored doing a lot of procedural work such as reading a lot of material searching for specific rulings (I had to do this in Debate and I hated it). What does a Patent Prosecutor spend the average day doing? How about litigators?

Overall, would I be a good fit for a career in patent law? Is there a big difference between prosecution and litigation, and would one or the other be better for me?

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blakesq

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Re: Is Patent Law for me?
« Reply #1 on: 07-10-11 at 04:36 pm »

I dont know what ECE is or EECS, are those engineering degrees?  Electrical? Computer Science? Combination? sounds like they probably are based or your internships. 

My answer to you about money is, to make good money as a lawyer (or an engineer), you have to be entreprenurial (sp?).  Engineers can make tons of money, if they start their own sucessful company.  If you are a lawyer, patent law, litigator, you should keep this saying in mind, as told to me by a wise old lawyer:  "its not a matter of if you will ever go out on your own, its a matter of when."  Meaning that many many lawyers end up as solo attorneys, further meaning, you need to be able to drum up your own clients.  I didn't know all this until was out of law school for several years.  So, the moral of the story is, you can make a great deal of money, if you are entreprenurial.  Or you can make a decent salary if you are a worker bee.  Making $150K a year is a pretty good salary for a patent attorney nowadays.  If you can make that with your MS, staying in engineering may make more sense.  You need to think about how much time and money you will lose if you take 3 years off to go to law school.  Good luck!


Hi All,

I've been lurking on the forums for a while now, reading about a career in Patent Law. I think I have a pretty good idea about some of the issues at a high level, but I'm still not 100% sure it would be a good career for me.

About me: I'm currently between my first and second years of MS in ECE, which I'm getting from a Top5 school in the field. Before this I got my BS in EECS from another Top 5 school. I've had several internships in software/hardware companies. I think I can get into a lower-end T14 Law school if I apply myself.

I think I would be happy working in industry as an engineer. However, there are some things I don't like about a career in engineering:

1. Getting ahead is all about specialization; I like learning about many different technologies, but to move up I feel you need to spend your career becoming an expert in a specific niche. I feel like being a patent attorney will allow me to learn about a wide variety of fields.

2. The pay levels out relatively low; the most I can hope for at the end of my career as an engineer doing product development is around 150k, unless I go into senior management or become a technical fellow. According to some posts, I would make more than that as a fresh attorney in biglaw.

The only thing I'm concerned about is the day-to-day work. I very much enjoy the typical work of an engineer; designing systems to solve problems. I think I would become bored doing a lot of procedural work such as reading a lot of material searching for specific rulings (I had to do this in Debate and I hated it). What does a Patent Prosecutor spend the average day doing? How about litigators?

Overall, would I be a good fit for a career in patent law? Is there a big difference between prosecution and litigation, and would one or the other be better for me?


« Last Edit: 07-11-11 at 08:58 am by blakesq »
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kepler

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Re: Is Patent Law for me?
« Reply #2 on: 07-10-11 at 07:59 pm »

Thanks for the reply blakesq.

Quote
I dont know what ECE is or EECS, are those engineering degrees?  Electrical? Computer Science? Combination? sounds like they probably are based or your internships. 

EECS is Electrical Engineering and Computer Science. ECE is Electrical & Computer Engineering. I have some experience with both.

Quote
So, the moral of the story is, you can make a great deal of money, if you are entreprenurial.
At this point I'm a little reluctant to think about entrepreneurship, so I'm more interested in compensation for worker bees. But point well taken.

Quote
Making $150K a year is a pretty good salary for a patent attorney nowadays.  If you can make that with your MS, staying in engineering my make more sense.  You need to think about how much time and money you will lose if you take 3 years off to go to law school.  Good luck!

When I gave the 150k figure for the engineering salary I was assuming 20-30 years experience (end of career). Starting salaries for CS won't be more than 85-90k, EE slightly less. I was under the impression that starting salary for Patent Attorneys was around 150k, but that it grows proportional with experience from there. Is that not the case?

Thanks again for the reply.
« Last Edit: 07-10-11 at 08:02 pm by kepler »
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bleedingpen

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Re: Is Patent Law for me?
« Reply #3 on: 07-10-11 at 08:08 pm »

150k is for big firm jobs.  If you go to a T1 school with your background, the 150k a year job is probably attainable.  Keep in mind that you will absolutely bust your ass for that 150k.  Salary is going increase roughly 10k a year with each year of experience.  At year 7, you will have either developed clients and make partner or you will be fired. 
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kepler

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Re: Is Patent Law for me?
« Reply #4 on: 07-10-11 at 08:32 pm »

150k is for big firm jobs.  If you go to a T1 school with your background, the 150k a year job is probably attainable.  Keep in mind that you will absolutely bust your ass for that 150k.  Salary is going increase roughly 10k a year with each year of experience.  At year 7, you will have either developed clients and make partner or you will be fired. 

I see. I'm certainly not averse to putting in long hours; I've been doing that for years. But what if I don't make partner and cannot get enough clients to go solo? How is the life/compensation of in-house counsel (which I assume is the path for those who don't make partner)? Sorry if I'm thinking too far ahead; I'm at the point in my life when I have to decide what the hell I want to do, and I want to make a smart choice.
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bald & chained

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Re: Is Patent Law for me?
« Reply #5 on: 07-10-11 at 08:59 pm »

With your credentials (and assuming you get into T-14), you'll have a good chance of landing a job in a big firm.  Most of these tend to start out at 145-160 and cap out at 230+, after 6th or 7th year, plus bonus (~10-50+K, depending on lots of factors, such as billed hours).  So you could hypothetically break into high 200s or even low 300s when you are a senior associate, especially if you go into litigation, since making high hours is easier.  These are salaries that are generally not available in engineering, unless you are a true superstar or if you work on Wall Street, where everything costs 2x and low level sys admins can get six digits, while much higher salaries are available to quant-type folks.

So if you want to make money and you are really good in math/programming, then there is no question Wall street is the way to go.  You'll probably work less and make more than in law.

I think law is a good match of technical generalists who are flexible and linguistically-oriented (i.e., good bullshitters). In prosecution, your job will consist of splitting semantic hairs when arguing with the PTO.  For litigation, you just have to be fast on your feet and fairly eloquent.  And given that most judges and jurors don't know a transistor from a resistor, true technical understanding of the subject matter is even less relevant there, where by the time the case gets to trial, it's all about case theme that has nothing to do with technical accuracy.  That's why many really successful trial attorneys don't even have technical degrees, as success is mostly driven by how well you can you relate to judges and jurors.

Oh, and the work is stressful, the hours can be very long, and once you leave large firms, the salaries scale down substantially. But it could also be more fun than being a regular "bee" engineer if you have the right personality for it.  Some people enjoy it and some make a very good living doing it (if you can call working around the clock "living.") 
« Last Edit: 07-10-11 at 09:04 pm by bald & chained »
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kepler

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Re: Is Patent Law for me?
« Reply #6 on: 07-10-11 at 10:08 pm »

Thanks for the very informative post bald & chained.

So if you want to make money and you are really good in math/programming, then there is no question Wall street is the way to go.  You'll probably work less and make more than in law.

I'm a decent programmer, but I don't really want to work on Wall Street, mostly out of principle. I feel like I'd rather do something better with my time than figuring the best way to move money around. It's not just the money that makes me want to do law; it's the chance to learn and help establish new technologies. 

Quote
I think law is a good match of technical generalists who are flexible and linguistically-oriented (i.e., good bullshitters). In prosecution, your job will consist of splitting semantic hairs when arguing with the PTO.  For litigation, you just have to be fast on your feet and fairly eloquent.  And given that most judges and jurors don't know a transistor from a resistor, true technical understanding of the subject matter is even less relevant there, where by the time the case gets to trial, it's all about case theme that has nothing to do with technical accuracy.  That's why many really successful trial attorneys don't even have technical degrees, as success is mostly driven by how well you can you relate to judges and jurors.

This makes me think I would enjoy patent law. I like arguing and debating, and I feel I have better communication skills than most of my peers in grad school. The idea of long hours is not exactly appealing, but I've gotten used to sleepless nights doing research, so it shouldn't be a problem. 

The only thing I'm still wondering about is what the day-to-day looks like, especially for a prosecutor. What goes into making a patent application, and what else takes up time? Are there any resources to learn more about how patent attorneys spend their time? I've searched on these forums and google but I don't have much of an idea.

Thanks to all for the help so far.
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virus_guy

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Re: Is Patent Law for me?
« Reply #7 on: 07-10-11 at 11:09 pm »

I guess I can chime in here regarding the day-to-day work. I didn't work at a big firm, but I imagine it's about the same in terms of prosecution.

I worked as a patent agent, so my former day-to-day might be different than for an attorney. As another disclaimer, what I'm about to say is my own experience and not intended to be representative of what others on this board do on a day-to-day basis.

The keyword for my work was multitasking as the work for me was pretty much juggling a bunch of cases that were at various stages of prosecution and that have various deadlines. From my recollection, my day-to-day was to make sure things got done by a certain deadline. Each "thing" was different. For one case, it might be preparing a response to a first office action. In another case, the "thing" to do might be a response to a restriction requirement. And perhaps in another case, the "thing" to do might be a response to final office action. I also had foreign cases, so I might have to prepare a response to a foreign office action, get the response to the boss for review, back to me and to the mail room for faxing to the foreign associate. There's also drafting new applications sprinkled in there that take up a bit more time and research and maybe some due diligence here and there to break up the monotony of preparing responses.

If you're wondering what you do all day, you're pretty much stuck behind a desk, reading and writing and trying to figure out what witty thing you can say in response to an examiner. Some people say that they want to get into prosecution because you get to learn a bunch of different technologies. This is true, but don't expect to be sitting around reading and learning the technology for your pleasure. You have to keep in mind that you are billing your time out to a client, so you can't bill hours upon hours for "doing research" or "learning the background". I'm sure the client will not be too happy and it's likely that your boss will cut your hours if you spend too much time doing a particular task. Eventually, you get the hang of it, but once you do, you find you just learn enough to get something done. Sometimes you even wish that a case that you get is a technology you already know something about. Otherwise, you spend too much time trying to figure things out while there's other stuff on your plate to do. And for some strange reason, all the responses are due around the same time.

Also, one last thing about long hours. I used to put in long hours for research (in the lab) back in the day when I did research, and personally I feel those long hours are very different than the long hours during which you're stuck behind a desk, reading and writing and trying to figure out something good to say to an examiner, especially with a deadline looming over your head.
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Interen

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Re: Is Patent Law for me?
« Reply #8 on: 07-11-11 at 07:59 am »

Very informative! Thanks a lot, virus-guy.

I guess I can chime in here regarding the day-to-day work. I didn't work at a big firm, but I imagine it's about the same in terms of prosecution.
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Turkoglu

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Re: Is Patent Law for me?
« Reply #9 on: 07-12-11 at 02:10 am »

Patent law is to identify the inventor (or his successors the right) enjoy the exclusive right to their inventions, the provisions of the patentee's rights and obligations of legal norms. ;D ;D
« Last Edit: 07-13-11 at 06:57 pm by Turkoglu »
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bald & chained

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Re: Is Patent Law for me?
« Reply #10 on: 07-12-11 at 09:23 am »

Patent law is to identify the inventor (or his successors the right) enjoy the exclusive right to their inventions, the provisions of the patentee's rights and obligations of legal norms. ;D ;D
http://www.patentclaimmaster.com

Wow, you know you've made it when spammers start advertising your own website :)
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bleedingpen

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Re: Is Patent Law for me?
« Reply #11 on: 07-12-11 at 10:46 am »

Patent law is to identify the inventor (or his successors the right) enjoy the exclusive right to their inventions, the provisions of the patentee's rights and obligations of legal norms. ;D ;D
http://www.patentclaimmaster.com

Wow, you know you've made it when spammers start advertising your own website :)

Spammer's avatar is much nicer than yours.
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MYK

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Re: Is Patent Law for me?
« Reply #12 on: 07-12-11 at 03:22 pm »

Patent law is to identify the inventor (or his successors the right) enjoy the exclusive right to their inventions, the provisions of the patentee's rights and obligations of legal norms. ;D ;D
http://www.patentclaimmaster.com

Wow, you know you've made it when spammers start advertising your own website :)
Did you recently hire a company to advertise your site?  If so, you might want to cancel the contract.  Spammers don't usually do that sort of thing at random.  OTOH, maybe this one is trying to build up some "credibility" here?  Scary.
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Disclaimer: not only am I not a lawyer, I'm not your lawyer.  Therefore, this does not constitute legal advice.

bald & chained

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Re: Is Patent Law for me?
« Reply #13 on: 07-12-11 at 03:40 pm »

Did you recently hire a company to advertise your site?  If so, you might want to cancel the contract.  Spammers don't usually do that sort of thing at random.  OTOH, maybe this one is trying to build up some "credibility" here?  Scary.

Nope, didn't hire anyone.  That's why this was truly random.
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Ghoti

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Re: Is Patent Law for me?
« Reply #14 on: 07-12-11 at 05:33 pm »

This thread may be useful for your decision process.

Patents / Patent Agent/Lawyer Careers / Re: Is patent law more difficult than engineering?

Sorry I couldn't post the link... spam issues.
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