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[sox45]

I know there are many other threads similar to this one, but the responses have been so great I figured I'd give it a shot. Please give any advise possible on whether you would adivse a career as a patent attorney.

Here is my background:

Right now I am a 24 year old with a unique undergrad degree called "Management and Engineering for Manufacturing". It is essentially a joint degree in Mechanical Engineering and Business Management with a special focus on operations (degree from both school). This is my third year out of school working in a rotational program for a medical manufacturer to gain a variety of experience in the engineering world. I spent a year doing mechaincal design, a year doing industrial engineering, and a year doing project engineering management. I make ~60k. I'm at a point where I don't find my job fulfilling and have discovered working in engineering is much different then anticpicated. I'm exploring alternatives.

I am deciding whether I should take the LSATs in the October and apply to Law School in the fall. My questions are as follows:

1) Assuming I get into to a top 25 school, is the cost / lost cost of not working worth it? What are starting salaries?

2) What is the job market like for a Patent Attorney. I have friends in law school who are having trouble finding jobs but keep on stressing patent law is much different and the career is very much in demand. My pet peeve is collecting all these student loans and then falling back on my engineering degree.

3) Will my unique undergrad degree hurt me, or will it help that it is a engineering/business hyrbrid?

4) How will my work experience benefit me? Its diverse but not specialized. Is it a negative or plus to work a couple of years before going to law school? Will I be behind those going straight from undergrad?

Any help would be great. I don't have any resources to ask, so I thought I'd give this a shot.

[bleedingpen]

3) most likely will hurt you.

[AnotherCog]

1) Assuming I get into to a top 25 school, is the cost / lost cost of not working worth it? What are starting salaries?

The general rule of thumb is that law school rank doesn't matter as much outside of the top 14 schools.  Starting salaries can range anywhere from $45k/yr to $160k/yr.  Is it worth it? That depends - is it worth it to play roulette?  If you land one of the $160k/yr jobs, then it may be.  Those jobs tend to be maybe one in twenty, though.  Odds are, you'll end up somewhere around your current salary.

2) What is the job market like for a Patent Attorney. I have friends in law school who are having trouble finding jobs but keep on stressing patent law is much different and the career is very much in demand. My pet peeve is collecting all these student loans and then falling back on my engineering degree.

Everything in patent law revolves around your technical background.  If your degree is in civil engineering, for example, your chances of landing a patent job are almost nonexistent.  If your degree is in electrical engineering, however, your chances are pretty good.

3) Will my unique undergrad degree hurt me, or will it help that it is a engineering/business hyrbrid?

It will definitely hurt you and/or prevent you from doing patent prosecution.  Convincing a law firm that your degree is the functional equivalent of a mech.E degree will be difficult enough.  Toss in the fact that mechanical engineering is considered to be on the less desirable side of the spectrum and you'll be fighting for jobs.

Another thing that may hurt you is that the Patent Office has educational requirements to take the patent bar.  You may or may not have the requirements with your degree.  Take a look at the requirements for the patent bar to see if you qualify; many people enter law school believing they can go into patent law, only to be sorely disappointed.

4) How will my work experience benefit me? Its diverse but not specialized. Is it a negative or plus to work a couple of years before going to law school? Will I be behind those going straight from undergrad?

It's a complete wash.  Starting legal salaries aren't adjusted for prior engineering experience, so it isn't going to win you anything in terms of pay over a newly minted 25 year old.  On the flip side, work experience may give you a different perspective on law school, so you may work harder than your 22 year old peers.

[Ghoti]

As a different perspective.

How about you stay with your current employer and ask them to rotate you to their patent group (or the closest equivalent). Get paid while you learn more about patent law from an in-house position. Depending on your patent group, your business management could be of value.

From an in-house position, you'll obtain a much better idea of the value (for you) of doing a law degree.

[asdfasdf]

If the company is willing to rotate you into a patent position and you like the company this is what I would do.  I would be careful about trying to find a job at a law firm.  It is hit and miss in terms of pay, politics, longevity, etc.

[plex]

My initial impression, without more information, is that it would be a bad idea.  Things that could change my opinion would be a good engineering GPA and a strong desire to read and write.  I do not see anything indicating you would actually enjoy the career move, and it has a high chance of not making financial sense.  Your questions in order

1) Maybe, with your undergrad, I would say you would need to do somewhat well in a 15-25, or get into a top 14 and not do horribly.

2) Your friends have no idea what he is talking about most likely, unless they are patent attorneys, which it doesn't sound like.  I know plenty non-patent attorneys who have no idea what the patent attorney market is like, either in a positive or negative sense, but they still seem happy to give their opinion.  Patent prosecution, but not litigation (which basically is similar to general law in most aspects), more than anything else, requires a very specific handful of technical backgrounds.  Manufacturing engineering, and to a fair degree, mechanical engineering, are not one of those degrees.  So, you would be much closer to a general law students situation than a patent law student.  Even for patent law students it is just comparatively better than general law.  Job prospects in patent law, for those who are actually qualified, especially for entry level, are significantly worse than in engineering.

3) As I eluded to before, your background is bad for patent prosecution.  Your degree (to me) sounds like a manufacturing engineering degree with a business minor.  Having a full business undergrad degree, even an MBA, would not matter.  Manufacturing engineering is one of the least desirable engineering degrees for patent law, it is slightly worse than mechanical engineering.  If you want to do general law, which happens to deal with patents through litigation, then go ahead and give the LSAT a shot and see if you can make it into a top school, otherwise, do not go.  You will likely stay financially ahead staying where you are.

4) It won't help you at all.  It will not hurt you, unlike putting something on your resume such as, "CEO of my own lawn mowing business," but it will mean nothing for any type of law, except to show you were gainfully employed before.

You could try for a more desirable degree, if you nodded yes to the first two questions I posted at the top, but otherwise I would strongly advise you to stay where you are.  You will be happier.

[sox45]

Thanks for the responses, this is a big help. I guess I never really understood what impact your undergrad degree has on becoming a patent attorney. I was always under the impression that as long as you qualified for the patent bar with your undergrad, firms would hire you on your Law School experience and grades, and the undergrad degree would become relatively negligible. Dead wrong.

I'm scoring ~170 on my practice LSATs so I'm confident I could get into a decent school, but it seems my technical background would is inadequate. Would it help if I can get a masters in a more desired engineering or physics (might be able to get my company to pay for it)? But then I'm holding off law school for another couple of years.

Thanks again.

[bleedingpen]

I'm scoring ~170 on my practice LSATs so I'm confident I could get into a decent school, but it seems my technical background would is inadequate. Would it help if I can get a masters in a more desired engineering or physics (might be able to get my company to pay for it)?

Yes.

You can always do the masters degree/additional engineering degree while attending law school. 

[AnotherCog]

Thanks for the responses, this is a big help. I guess I never really understood what impact your undergrad degree has on becoming a patent attorney. I was always under the impression that as long as you qualified for the patent bar with your undergrad, firms would hire you on your Law School experience and grades, and the undergrad degree would become relatively negligible. Dead wrong.

I'm scoring ~170 on my practice LSATs so I'm confident I could get into a decent school, but it seems my technical background would is inadequate. Would it help if I can get a masters in a more desired engineering or physics (might be able to get my company to pay for it)? But then I'm holding off law school for another couple of years.

Thanks again.

You'd be surprised at the number of people that go to law school only to find out that their degree is almost a complete bar to going into patent law.  Law schools also don't do a very good job of being upfront about it, either.

A master's in a "hot" area of engineering (electrical, computer, etc.) can definitely help - physics, not so much.

[rbbugbitme]

I'd like to jump in here with my own situation.

I have a BS in mechanical engineering and I've been in the advanced nuclear R&D area with the largest commercial nuclear supplier in the world but I am worried about my job prospects if I go to law school.

Would it significantly help my long term career goals in law if I got an associate's degree in computer engineering?  In other words, would some level of exposure in computer engineering coupled with my BS put me on the same playing field as a straight computer engineering graduate with no work experience?

[patentatt]

Right now I am a 24 year old with a unique undergrad degree called "Management and Engineering for Manufacturing". It is essentially a joint degree in Mechanical Engineering and Business Management with a special focus on operations (degree from both school). This is my third year out of school working in a rotational program for a medical manufacturer to gain a variety of experience in the engineering world. I spent a year doing mechaincal design, a year doing industrial engineering, and a year doing project engineering management. I make ~60k. I'm at a point where I don't find my job fulfilling and have discovered working in engineering is much different then anticpicated. I'm exploring alternatives.

You need to determine whether you will love patent law.  The question shouldn't be "can I find a job doing this" but "will I love doing this."

You might say: "that's easy for you to say, since you have a patent law job."  My answer to that:

1. part of the reason why I have a job when some of my peers struggle is that I mostly enjoy what I do
2. life is short.  Don't spend it doing something that you don't love - or that you hate.

The way to discover whether you love patent law is to work in an internship, or as a patent agent, preferably part time, for a patent firm.  Also, schedule lots of informational lunch meetings with patent attorneys.  Ask them what they like about their job, and what they don't.  Get a feel for their hours, their stress levels, their family life, etc.  Their experience is going to be a pretty good predictor of your experience.

The way *not* to learn about patent law is spending three years and $100ks going to law school.

1) Assuming I get into to a top 25 school, is the cost / lost cost of not working worth it? What are starting salaries?

Why assume that?  Are you very good at standardized tests and logic games?  I was a National Merit Scholar but did not go to a top 25 school.

The other thing that I have learned, both in patent law and in reading law-school-scam blogs, is that the pedigree of your law school means almost nothing for the vast majority of patent attorneys.  Patent law is its own animal.  Just the fact that you have a technical background, and passed the patent bar (when you do), will be the edge that firms are looking for.  There are top firms - like Finnegan and Fish, as well as general practice white shoe firms - that care about the pedigree of your school.  But, although I wouldn't rule them out decisively, the odds of you both working for one of these firms and enjoying it enough to stay for a decade on the partnership track... are about 4%.  With some skill and your own client, you can become a solo practitioner and make comparable money to those firms with more job satisfaction.

[patentatt]

PART 2:

Meanwhile, a lot of lower ranked schools will give you aid and free rides - just be careful that the free ride is not contingent on you making a GPA that, statistically, is only obtained by 20% of the class (or something ~fraudulent like that).

Of course, if you can get a free ride to a top school - take it!

2) What is the job market like for a Patent Attorney. I have friends in law school who are having trouble finding jobs but keep on stressing patent law is much different and the career is very much in demand. My pet peeve is collecting all these student loans and then falling back on my engineering degree.

When I called headhunters to find my last position (roughly 1-4 years ago), they told me they had been working in this business for 60 years and never seen the market as bad as it is now.  I see lots and lots of attorneys finding part-time, "find your own clients", contract-based, and/or low-salary positions.  I have a couple of friends who work at fancy firms.  One of them quit his first firm and switched to Fish, because the other firm didn't have enough work - even after it had fired many of his friends.  The other friend seems to do well enough, although he knows far more about federal procedure than patent law - he's the exception to the rule.  For every friend like him, I know about 2 others that are struggling or unhappy.

My pet peeve is collecting all these student loans and then falling back on my engineering degree.

I advise you not to accept any student loans at all.  Go to school part time and/or accept scholarships sufficient to pay for your education.  Take a compromise in school pedigree if it helps.  You'd much rather be a patent attorney with zero debt and a degree from Tier-3-School than a patent attorney with a degree from Virginia and $150,000 in debt.

3) Will my unique undergrad degree hurt me, or will it help that it is a engineering/business hyrbrid?

It will hurt compared to electrical engineers and computer engineers, etc., in finding a job.

On the flip side, once you demonstrate that you're technically strong enough to do good work, nobody will care about your degree at all.  Administrative patent judges, Federal Circuit judges, and Supreme Court judges all make the most important decisions about patent law in the country, and they are all technical generalists - Supreme Court justices have no technical expertise at all.  Generally speaking, you only need to be as good as they are.  Most patent attorneys work on such a wide variety of technologies that their technical background contributes very little to their work product, especially since most patent documents describe ideas that have not been reduced to practice in any real world, engineering sense.

One exception: drafting applications requires technical savvy.  Ironically, most SCOTUS justices probably cannot compare to a good application drafter.

If you like patent law enough to know the issues, develop experience, write articles for blogs, trade publications, and journals, etc. - you can more than overcome your degree.  Tom Goldstein argued KSR before the Supreme Court, and regularly lectures on patent law, but has a law degree from American and a non-technical degree from Chapel Hill.

4) How will my work experience benefit me? Its diverse but not specialized. Is it a negative or plus to work a couple of years before going to law school? Will I be behind those going straight from undergrad?

I got the vague impression that work experience helps during on-campus interviews and first-job interviews.  But my gut-feeling is not data.  What will matter most, by far, are your grades, and your ability to find a good internship/first job and do well there (which can involve a lot of hard work and networking, in addition to grades and school pedigree).  Just remember to minimize debt.

[bleedingpen]

Would it significantly help my long term career goals in law if I got an associate's degree in computer engineering?  In other words, would some level of exposure in computer engineering coupled with my BS put me on the same playing field as a straight computer engineering graduate with no work experience?

No.

[WTF_Over]

I'd like to jump in here with my own situation.

I have a BS in mechanical engineering and I've been in the advanced nuclear R&D area with the largest commercial nuclear supplier in the world but I am worried about my job prospects if I go to law school.

Would it significantly help my long term career goals in law if I got an associate's degree in computer engineering?  In other words, would some level of exposure in computer engineering coupled with my BS put me on the same playing field as a straight computer engineering graduate with no work experience?

No, you're sunk.

Stick with things that glow.