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[coolbabe]

Hey guys,

As you can all probebly tell i am very new to this site and the whole forum thing in general! A few weeks ago i came up with an invention which i belive if i sell it to the right people can make them millions (i would want a fair share of the cake aswell of course ) Before i actualy go ahead with anything i thought i could maybe get some advice from people who know what they are talking about! Basically i have an idea, this idea i have in mind the ingrediants for the product, a design for the product and some general branding for the product (however i did not go too far into the branding as i am wanting to sell this to a large cosmetics company and im sure the employ somebody to do that for them).

Basically all i want to do is get a patent, pitch this idea to a few companys and see if they will buy my idea off me (right i know that sounds very breif and it is probebely a lot harder than that) But this kind of shows you how clueless i am about this!

My first questions are....(brace yourself)

Do i need a patent attonie or can i file the patent and do it all myself? if you need one how much do they generally charge per hour??
Is it actualy possible for a company to buy an idea off you?? If so would they give you a lump sum or just royalties??
If i am to pitch an idea to a company do i have to make the product or can i just do designs of the product?


I would apprichiate any awnsers as i would like to get rolling with it asap

By the way sorry for my terrible spelling!

Charlotte

[SoCalProductDev]

I am not a patent agent or attorney, but I will take a shot at some comments on your post.  So, with that disclaimer, lets see if I have any reasonable suggestions for you.

A few weeks ago i came up with an invention which i belive if i sell it to the right people can make them millions

When you say that, many patent agents, attorneys, and business will roll their eyes or hang up the phone because they have heard that so many times.  Sometimes to be taken seriously you have to temper your enthusiasm.

(i would want a fair share of the cake aswell of course )

A license fee or royalty is what it sounds like you are getting at.

Before i actualy go ahead with anything i thought i could maybe get some advice from people who know what they are talking about!

Getting some good solid advice is a good idea. 

Basically all i want to do is get a patent, pitch this idea to a few companys and see if they will buy my idea off me

Before you jump head-first int getting a patent, you need to consider and do a few things.

First of all, consider that most (by far) patents make zero money.

Then, you should consider that your idea has already been implemented, published, made or used by someone, or even already patented.  Depending on the details and the timeline, someone else who did something along the same lines as your idea unpatentable.  Maybe someone already patented it.  So, take some time and search, search, search for any product, publication or patent that is identical or similar to yours.  (Keep a record of what you found.)

You also need to consider, with an eye to economic realities, how profitable your idea would be.  If you did manage to license your idea/invention to some big company and they gave you a 1% royalty on the wholesale price, would it be worth going after and spending a ton of money in development and patenting?  Who knows what your royalty rate is, but if you start with 1% and consider the potential sales volume for the particular product and remember that your potential royalty might be on wholesale prices rather than retail prices.  If it still sounds good, then continue to keep in mind the other items on the to-do list.

Start an inventor's notebook (read up on what that means) and get to work on really perfecting your idea into an actual product.  Ideas do not make money.  Inventions and action makes money.  Your idea should guide your actions toward an invention.  As you work on this, write down all of your findings, and everything that your idea needs in order to turn into a product.  You should be able to write down full instructions on how to make and use your product including any variations and special materials. 

You need also to find someone competent to speak with about your invention.  Seek out a registered patent agent or attorney. They can help you with everything you need to know about patenting your invention.  If you need legal advice on licensing your invention or anything else other than just the patenting, then you will need an attorney rather than a patent agent. 

Do i need a patent attonie or can i file the patent and do it all myself? if you need one how much do they generally charge per hour??

Do not patent it all yourself unless you are very skilled in the area of patent prosecution.  In other words, yes... you need to seek out a registered patent agent or a registered patent attorney.  They have a wide variety of pricing depending on what they specialize in, where they are located, and how good they are at what they do.  Generally, patent agents are more affordable but they can only work toward getting you a patent.  Patent agents cannot give you other legal advice outside the realm of patent prosecution.

Is it actualy possible for a company to buy an idea off you?? If so would they give you a lump sum or just royalties??

It is very possible for a company to buy an idea.  And sometimes they "give" you a lump sum and other times royalties.  Really, however, they never "give" you anything- they will negotiate an agreement with you and pay-up according to the terms of the agreement.  A lawyer can assist with these license or sale agreements.  Licensing an agreement is very common, and it is done between huge companies and one-(wo)man inventors as well as between multiple large companies. 

[continued in next post]

[SoCalProductDev]

If i am to pitch an idea to a company do i have to make the product or can i just do designs of the product?

That really depends on the company.  But, you will (almost) always do better if you have a fairly well perfected product or prototype combined with a well written sell-sheet / brochure.  Companies buy or license ideas, but that is a pretty broad statement.  Some will not even talk to you unless you have an issued patent.  Some are happy to talk to you if you are patent pending.  Others will take your submission and have you sign an agreement basically giving them the right to make and us it.  So, keep that in mind and be careful what you sign. 

If you don't actually make the product for whatever reason (such as cost or complexity), make sure that you have a good understanding and can describe the process for making and using the product. 

You will need to make a compelling argument that the idea or invention you present will make your target company a lot of additional sales revenue through the use of your product or idea. 

I would apprichiate any awnsers as i would like to get rolling with it asap

By the way sorry for my terrible spelling!

Charlotte

What terrible spelling? 

A few other thoughts to consider:

Pick up some books on inventing, licensing your invention, and getting a patent.  There are so many that most bookstores will have them.  (Stephen Key, NoLo press patent books, and/or several others)

Also, check out the USPTO website and read a little about what can be patented and what it takes to get one.  ($)

Find a local inventor's club and ask for some advice.  If there is not one near you, then look online.  Some of these kinds of meetings are actually live-webcast or recorded for later viewing.  There is great information available for the total noob as well as experienced inventors.

So pick up a notebook, a pen, and computer mouse and start writing down and outlining your invention in detail while also searching around for both information and others who may have done anything similar.

Good luck to you.  I hope that your forecast for millions is correct.  (I do take gratuities, by the way, in case you do strike it big.)
[/quote]

[OMG IP]

I think SoCal pretty much nailed it.  Although doing some diligence to learn about the "inventive" process can include chiming in an IP message board, they're is a lot more that you can and should do.

That said, in regard to your main question: no, you do not need a patent attorney -- you can do everything yourself.

[SoCalProductDev]

I think SoCal pretty much nailed it. 

Thanks OMG IP.  I'm having one of those days where a compliment counts as triple.

[SoCalProductDev]

Licensing an agreement is very common

Sometimes typos are comical.

[patentsusa]

I am a patent attorney and SoCalProductDev has given very good advice.  I wish all individual inventors would read that before contacting me.  I have just a bit to add.

There is a bit of a chicken and egg problem for a lot of inventors.  They can't get a professionally written and prosecuted patent without financing. Companies don't want to look at inventions under confidentiality agreements for fear that they will be sued if they happen to be working on the same idea at the same time.  They have their own R&D and are not interested in hearing from individual inventors.  But it takes money to get a patent.  So what do you do first, get money or get a patent?  The answer is usually get money, but not by selling an idea.  A patent application that is drafted by a non-professional is usually not worth the paper it is written on.  Our courts have set too many traps.  A small mistake can lead to invalidity or to limitations being read into the claims from the specification.

Venture capitalists at present do not seem to be interested in providing financing until there is proven revenue.  For that reason, a lot of inventors start out with angel financing.  And it helps to have at least some of your own skin in the game.  If you aren't willing to put money into your invention, why should someone else take a risk on you?

In addition to finding inventor clubs, it can be useful to find a local incubator and to get a space there. 

And don't fall into the clutches of unscrupulous invention developers.  There are some companies that will take a lot of money and just do a mass mailing of a fancy brochure that is highly unlikely to result in any interest.  The USPTO web site has a list of invention developer companies that have had complaints filed against them.

Consider putting together a team, such as a board of directors.  Don't think of just friends but think of people with the skills and experience necessary to bring the product to market and to sell it.  A strong team may have an easier time attracting financing.  You could offer stock instead of an immediate salary.

If you have no interest in making a product, odds of selling an idea are very low, as was stated.  However, with a really good forward thinking idea, there is some possibililty of contingency fee enforcement of a patent, if it is properly drafted by a professional and if companies eventually use the idea claimed in the patent.

[SoCalProductDev]

I am a patent attorney and SoCalProductDev has given very good advice.  I wish all individual inventors would read that before contacting me. 

Thanks for that!

[rwcltn]

dont bother with an attorney because the odds of your invention getting issued and worth a lot of money are the same as hitting the lottery. file it yourself but thats probably a waste of money in it self.

[rts]

dont bother with an attorney because the odds of your invention getting issued and worth a lot of money are the same as hitting the lottery. file it yourself but thats probably a waste of money in it self.

Um, no. If the product is good, then a patent is useful. It's not a lottery ticket; it's an insurance policy against knock-off artists.

People who file for patents on technology they have no intention of developing/marketing are playing the lottery.

[GauchoDon]

Guys, thanks for the great advice.  I'm in the same boat as Charlotte, great idea for a functional improvement on a device that sells over 200,000,000 units a year in the $5-$50 price range (and the improvement would be in the high end of the range obviously), but most likely don't have the skill to do mass market and sell it (currently teaching myself the skills to make the prototype fit the idea in my head). Thus I'm likely stuck trying to license it to someone else who will be able to refine the prototype for mass market, sell it and pay me a very small royalty per unit that will hopefully add up to something not so small.

Thanks to you guys, I purchased a journal today and began keeping my invention notebook.

The additional questions I have are:
How long does the patent process take these days (my fear is that it's a 3-4 year process (based on review of some application and issue dates)?
Is there any possibility of an attorney filing the patent on a contingent basis with me just paying the filing fees and cutting them in on the eventual licensing? (I'm assuming the odds of this go up some with a functioning prototype that I can present to them so they can see the benefit)

I'm assuming based on the lottery comments that the contingent thing is probably not feasible, but since I have very limited funds to complete the idea myself, I doubt it I have much choice other than to try to complete such a deal.  Very thankful for the small entity reduction at the PTO

Anyway, just found this forum today and am very thankful to have found it and for all your contributions

[Ghoti]

GauchDon

If your idea is a functional improvement of an existing sucessful device (thats ~< 20 years old) then there could be a in-force patent for the existing device. The first step would be to do a patent search for the existing device and see what it and the related patents cover. There might already be patents for your improvement. You can do the patent searching yourself using free websites.

Also to consider is if there is a patent that covers the existing device you may not be free to sell an improvement to that device, if the improved device infringes the patent claims of the existing device.

[rwcltn]

dont bother with an attorney because the odds of your invention getting issued and worth a lot of money are the same as hitting the lottery. file it yourself but thats probably a waste of money in it self.

Um, no. If the product is good, then a patent is useful. It's not a lottery ticket; it's an insurance policy against knock-off artists.

People who file for patents on technology they have no intention of developing/marketing are playing the lottery.

Um, no. Only 5% of patents issued make a profit. Even smaller number make boat loads of money. You get much better odds gambling.

It will cost an applicant about $10,000 to get a patent if they hire a practitioner. More if its a complex application. Further there are no guarantees the application will be allowed. Most applicants are just flushing money down a toilet when they hire said practitioner.

So yes hire someone if you know you will make a lot of money on your invention. Otherwise if you really want to file just do it yourself.

[Kaitlin]

Um, no. Only 5% of patents issued make a profit. Even smaller number make boat loads of money. You get much better odds gambling.

It will cost an applicant about $10,000 to get a patent if they hire a practitioner. More if its a complex application. Further there are no guarantees the application will be allowed. Most applicants are just flushing money down a toilet when they hire said practitioner.

So yes hire someone if you know you will make a lot of money on your invention. Otherwise if you really want to file just do it yourself.

Assuming your statistics are correct, the unfavorable comparison to "lottery" odds would only apply if all issued patents resulted from applications made by people with equally valuable inventions who themselves were equal in their skill in developing a business and marketing (or licensing) the invention -- and whose patents were all drafted with equal skill.  But, unlike the lottery, all bets are not equal here.  While it is true that some inventions aren't that great and just just won't pay off, it is also true that there are inventions which fail because the inventor didn't have enough business savvy to properly exploit the invention and other inventions which don't succeed because their patents weren't drafted well enough to prevent competing imitations from infringing.

So, I agree that getting a patent just for the sake of getting a patent is probably not a smart move (unless you want to spend the money just to have the experience, in which case, yes, do it yourself).  A patent alone does not guaranty income from the invention let alone profit; yet it is an important tool to have in exploiting the invention.  If an inventor has a good idea whose time has come, and the inventor is canny about business and does the necessary study of the market and appropriately consults experts under NDA's as necessary, developing a proper business plan, then the odds of having a profitable invention can be vastly improved and the need for proper protection is ramped up. 

In drafting your own patent application you're "gambling" that your untutored drafting skill will build a defense that will hold up against an infringer's crack legal team -- rather poor odds.  Even assuming your patent issues, if you've drafted your own claims only on the basis of your knowledge of your field and how your invention works, without knowledge of how patent claims are construed and how infringement works, you could very well end up with an issued patent that is absolutely no good to you, because it doesn't protect what you thought you were protecting or protects it in a way that is easily by-passed by your competitors.  The more the drafter knows about how claims are construed, the stronger and more useful the patent will be. 

[rts]

Um, no. Only 5% of patents issued make a profit. Even smaller number make boat loads of money. You get much better odds gambling.

It will cost an applicant about $10,000 to get a patent if they hire a practitioner. More if its a complex application. Further there are no guarantees the application will be allowed. Most applicants are just flushing money down a toilet when they hire said practitioner.

So yes hire someone if you know you will make a lot of money on your invention. Otherwise if you really want to file just do it yourself.

5% is an interesting number. Where did you get it? Does it just represent profit from licenses? Profit from associated products? Indirect profit from keeping competitors out of a market?

Bringing a product to market is very expensive. It can cost millions of dollars. The cost of a patent is tiny compared to that. You say "hire someone if you know you will make a lot of money on your invention". I agree, though investing in a product's development already makes that true.

Now if you're talking about just getting a patent and trying to sell it, well, that's a different story. That's the lottery.