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Author Topic: Filing Declaratory Jugement suit  (Read 4448 times)

bfast

  • Guest
Filing Declaratory Jugement suit
« on: 04-04-05 at 04:59 pm »

I have a small software company.  Some patent owner is going to my customer base saying "this guy is infringing on my patent."  I have carefully read the patent in question, and I am not coming close to infringing.  I have sent letters to the patent owner explaining this, but have been told that I am full of it.    At this point, I would like to file a Declaratory Judgement suit agains these guys Pro Se.  (If I go with lawyers the cost will be prohibitive, and in this case these guys are way out to lunch with their accusations, so I think I can win Pro Se.)  I am looking for advice from anyone who knows what they are doing and who doesn't start with "you can't go pro se".
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eric_stasik

  • Guest
Re: Filing Declaratory Jugement suit
« Reply #1 on: 04-05-05 at 01:34 am »

bfast,

By no means should you consider filing any legal action in the US Federal courts "pro se." This is just being silly. The formalities alone are complex enough that you will probably have your head handed to you for failing to cross a "t" or dot an "i".

In any case, as a follow-up to your earlier post, you cannot file a so-called DJ action unless you have been clealy threatened with litigation. If your opponent is foolish enough to give you this opportunity, then he probably doesn't know what he is doing. If he does, then you more than likely have no basis for filing one.

Seeing as this is your second post on the same subject, it would seem to me that the situation is a bit more complex and asking questions here is probably the wrong thing to do and you should pay a visit to an attorney.

Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est - knowledge is power. Spend a few hours with a patent attorney and make your decision based on a full understanding of the facts and circumstances.


regards,

eric stasik
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JSonnabend

  • Guest
Re: Filing Declaratory Jugement suit
« Reply #2 on: 04-05-05 at 08:04 am »

If your competitor is telling your clients or his clients that you infringe his patent, then you likely have one or more sustainable causes of action.  Contrary to Eric's assertions, statements by a patent holder that you are infringing may be enough, depending on other factors, to bring a DJ action -- overt threats of litigation are not necessary always.

Eric is absolutely correct when he advises you to speak to a lawyer.  I can't comment on the latin...

- Jeff

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bfast

  • Guest
Re: Filing Declaratory Jugement suit
« Reply #3 on: 04-05-05 at 10:37 am »

There is no question that these guys have threatened lawsuit -- both to myself and to at least one of my customers.  They are little guys, I am a little guy.  Their position is untenable!, I am not close to infringing on their patent!  They believe that I am little enough that they can squash me like a bug even if they are painfully wrong!  It seems that the cost of litigation is the single barrier to settling this thing is the cost of litigation.  Therefore I need to find a way to litigate at very low cost, ie: pro se or contingency.    As far as dotting i's and crossing t's goes, well, that is a challenge.  If I could find an attourney that would coach me through the maze of paperwork, that would be wonderful.
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JimIvey

  • Guest
Re: Filing Declaratory Jugement suit
« Reply #4 on: 04-05-05 at 10:55 am »

There are a few things you might consider.  If you're correct that his arguments are entirely untenable, then you might point out that you intend to sue, not only for a declaratory judgment, but also for attorneys' fees (you can get those if the other guy is unreasonable in dragging you into court).  There may be other ways to get him off the backs of your customers -- perhaps a tortious interference with business law suit in state court.  However, since that would hinge almost entirely on the merits of the patent, I'm not sure you can keep it in state court and you may end up essentially arguing a "Dec" action.

The problem with most kinds of patent litigation is that they're very complex and expensive.  That's the primary reason the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit (exclusive jurisdiction over patent appeals) was created -- patent cases were taking up all the time of the other circuits, even though the number of cases were generally small.

I think the bottom line is that you want this guy to put up or shut up.  Whatever you can do to force him to have an attorney look at his case (or to take on that perspective himself) sounds like it would take care of things for you.

On the other hand, you have to be very careful not to lose your own objectivity when looking at his claims of infringement.  If you get into this while being wrong in your characterization of the other guy's perspective as untenable, you could end up getting your head handed to you -- and paying his legal bill, not to mention the possibility of triple damages.

Good luck.
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bfast

  • Guest
Re: Filing Declaratory Jugement suit
« Reply #5 on: 04-05-05 at 11:11 am »

The other guy already has an attourney working for him.  The attourney he has is not a registered patent attourney.  As far as staying objective, please consider a statement that his attourney made, in writing, to my customer.  One of the claimed items reads "determining the subject image field with the highest composite correlation value".  This was re-interpreted by the atturney as "What is claimed is that by starting with a correlation value, the estimated location of the desired field is determined by adding or subtracting coordinates."  

The fact that a lawsuit would result in the other party paying my legal fees is kinda beside the point, because I have to get there first.  Unless I can find an attourney that is self-confident enough to work on contingency (there don't seem to be many in the patent arena), I still have to put up first, and get paid back later.  That can be an awful lot of putting up.
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davidlaw69

  • Guest
Re: Filing Declaratory Jugement suit
« Reply #6 on: 04-05-05 at 12:15 pm »

You may have no choice but to hire a lawyer.  If your company is a corporation or other similar business entity, most courts will not allow a corporation to appear pro se.
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JimIvey

  • Guest
Re: Filing Declaratory Jugement suit
« Reply #7 on: 04-05-05 at 01:45 pm »

Quote
The fact that a lawsuit would result in the other party paying my legal fees is kinda beside the point, because I have to get there first.  Unless I can find an attourney that is self-confident enough to work on contingency (there don't seem to be many in the patent arena), I still have to put up first, and get paid back later.  That can be an awful lot of putting up.

Yes, that's true.  However, the prospect of getting "reasonable" big-firm fees might entice a small/medium firm to take the case on for a reduced amount.  In addition, threatening your customers with ridiculous claims of patent infringement can result in a sizeable cash award that might entice a firm to take the case on contingency (take a percentage of your winnings in lieu of payment from you).  It might be a long-shot, but you might be able to leverage some sort of legal representation from the prospect of getting money from the other guy.

Given that the other guy is a little guy, Mr. Stasik's suggestion to just ignore him might make sense.  You don't have to pay him anything unless a court says you have to.  And that would take spending some money by the other guy to ever get to that point.

Good luck.
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bfast

  • Guest
Re: Filing Declaratory Jugement suit
« Reply #8 on: 04-05-05 at 08:51 pm »

The other guy has made himself very unignorable.  He has convinced at least one of my customers to quit using the product.  The issue for the customer was not a belief that my software infringed, but a simple fear of the threatened lawsuit.  This customer was a good recomendation for me as well as a good annual maintenance.  Further, since this event I have sold software to a well recognized customer.  I would love to promote the sale, but don't want to risk this guy finding out who my customer is.  Worse than that, there was a fellow who was seriously considering working with me on marketing, when he heard about the IP issue, he decided to use his talents elsewhere.  Having a hound on your tail is really quite expensive!
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eric_stasik

  • Guest
Re: Filing Declaratory Jugement suit
« Reply #9 on: 04-06-05 at 04:05 am »

Quote
If your competitor is telling your clients or his clients that you infringe his patent, then you likely have one or more sustainable causes of action.  Contrary to Eric's assertions, statements by a patent holder that you are infringing may be enough, depending on other factors, to bring a DJ action -- overt threats of litigation are not necessary always.


Let's put some meat on this. Title 28 of the United States Code, Section 2201(a) states:

“In a case of actual controversy within its jurisdiction …. any court of the United States, upon the filing of an appropriate pleading, may declare the rights and other legal relations of any interested party seeking such declaration, whether or not further relief is or could be sought. Any such declaration shall have the force and effect of a final judgment or decree and shall be reviewable as such.”
     
In short, this means that certain conditions must be met before an accused infringer may file a preemptory lawsuit (i.e. DJ action) against a licensor asking a court to declare the patent in question invalid, or not infringed.

Normally, patent holders refrain from making a literal accusation of infringement to avoid creating an actual controversy and gving the accused infringer a chance to file a DJ action, but it is the totality of their actions that makes the determination. Moreover, it is not just the patent holder's actions that are taken into account:

“Numerous district courts have held that even a letter which is insufficiently detailed to satisfy the usual notice standard may be deemed adequate if the recipient’s response indicates that the letter was understood as a charge of infringement.”
                             - Lando & Rader, The National Law Journal, June 2000

I suspect in this case the patent holder has no product to mark and part of his motivation for sending letters is to place accused infringers on notice that the patent exists so that they can set the damages clock ticking.

The challenge for the licensor is to serve notice of infringement without creating an actual controversy which would allow the accused infringer to seek declaratory relief.

Thus, the licensor will usually be intentionally vague as to her intentions.

The challenge for the accused infringer is to avoid, through his own actions, perfecting notice when the licensor’s communication is by itself insufficient to do so.

The accused infringer is thus presented with a dilemma. He cannot act as though a notice of infringement has been received – while at the same time awareness of the patent requires him to take affirmative action to prevent any infringement from being seen as willful.

There is a lot at stake:

“[W]ho filed the suit is a significant predictor of win rate in jury trials. [U.S.] Juries are significantly pro-patentee in suits for infringement (68% patentee win rate); but when a possible infringer initiates a declaratory judgment action the patentee only has a 38% win rate.”

- Kimberly A. Moore, Judges, Juries, and Patent Cases: An Empirical Peek Inside the Black Box, 99 Mich. L. Rev. 365, 368 (2000)

In bar fights and in litigations, if fists are going to be thrown, landing your blow first gives you a sustainable advantange through the rest of the fight.

What does bfast do? He quits asking questions in this public forum and sits down with a qualified attorney who can review the facts and circumstances of his specific case and give him proper advice. None of this is black and white.

/Eric
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JSonnabend

  • Guest
Re: Filing Declaratory Jugement suit
« Reply #10 on: 04-06-05 at 07:48 am »

Quote
What does bfast do? He quits asking questions in this public forum and sits down with a qualified attorney who can review the facts and circumstances of his specific case and give him proper advice. None of this is black and white.  

Eric, thanks for a thoughtful post.  You are 100% correct in your ultimate advice.

While some of the larger firms may be expensive, many sole practitioners and smaller firms -- like myself and many contributors here -- are not cost prohibitive.  Why not give one of us a call?

- Jeff
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bfast

  • Guest
Re: Filing Declaratory Jugement suit
« Reply #11 on: 04-06-05 at 09:12 am »

Jeff, thanks for the advice.  Finally someone is speaking my language and talking about 'cheaper'.  However, I presume I need an attourney in the right jurisdiction.  In this case the patent holder is in California, and my customer who has been affected by this thing is in Colorado.  I would prefer to fight this thing in Colorado.  

Eric, my feeling is that the one who throws the first formal punch has the advantage.  However these guys are different than the simple patent trolls that you presume them to be.  They have a technology, and they are using that technology in the course of their business.  The real problem in this case is that they are honestly, and deeply, confused about what their patent covers.  Their lawyer is no help to them whatsoever, he seems willing to accept their lack of understanding of the patent, and doesn't seem to have bothered reading the dear thing.  

A big concern that I have is that the other party's lawyer is so darned incompetant, how do I get a lawyer that is both affordable and competant -- and in the correct jurisdiction.
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eric_stasik

  • Guest
Re: Filing Declaratory Jugement suit
« Reply #12 on: 04-06-05 at 10:07 am »

Quote
Eric, my feeling is that the one who throws the first formal punch has the advantage.  However these guys are different than the simple patent trolls that you presume them to be.  They have a technology, and they are using that technology in the course of their business.  The real problem in this case is that they are honestly, and deeply, confused about what their patent covers.  Their lawyer is no help to them whatsoever, he seems willing to accept their lack of understanding of the patent, and doesn't seem to have bothered reading the dear thing.  

A big concern that I have is that the other party's lawyer is so darned incompetant, how do I get a lawyer that is both affordable and competant -- and in the correct jurisdiction.


bfast, I do not assume for one minute that the patent holder is a "troll." That would be a mistake. Like I said, these things are never black and white. Without knowing any details, the assumption has to be that he has a colorable argument.

I have seen both sides "honestly and deeply confused" about what a patent covers and my suggestion to you is based as much on you being confused about the patent as the other guy. No offense intended.

You do not want a lawyer that is cheap. You want a lawyer than knows what she is doing and will give you the good guidance you obviously need. You do not want a cheerleader or someone who will do what you want, at this stage you need the honest dispassionate view of a third party. This will save you time, money, and heartache in the long run.

DO NOT rush into litigation without first exhausting all other possibilities. It's the same rules as in a bar brawl - avoid it - but if you cannot talk your way out of it and you are unwilling to walk away then you better have at least an even chance of walking away with your teeth in your head before you even think about throwing that first punch. The only person who can make that assessment for you is a qualified patent attorney.

It's a cost of doing business.

Good Luck,

Eric Stasik
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bfast

  • Guest
Re: Filing Declaratory Jugement suit
« Reply #13 on: 04-06-05 at 11:30 am »

Eric, when it comes to someone being "honestly and deeply confused" about the patent, I don't know that it is helpful to consider that it is I that is so at this point, even if it is I that is so.  (As it happens I have presented this to a patent attourney who agrees with me that the other party is the confused one.  He then presented a price tag for addressing the issue that was prohibitive.)  The question I bring to the forum is this: if one begins with the premise that the other party is the one that is "honestly and deeply confused", and if clear communications with them have not helped them to quit being "honestly and deeply confused", and if offers for a mediated solution have been rejected, it seems that I am in the position of fronting significant money to convince a court to tell them that they are "honestly and deeply confused".  The bottom line question -- consider the premises to be valid -- is there a way that I, with some but not great means, can enter into the litigation process to de-confuse them.  
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JimIvey

  • Guest
Re: Filing Declaratory Jugement suit
« Reply #14 on: 04-06-05 at 12:28 pm »

Quote
The other guy has made himself very unignorable.  He has convinced at least one of my customers to quit using the product.  The issue for the customer was not a belief that my software infringed, but a simple fear of the threatened lawsuit.

One possible solution is to promise indemnification to your customers (you assume responsibility for any infringement liability of your software).  If your license doesn't already provide that (many licensees like that clause for obvious reasons), you can amend your license in writing, presumably.  That should keep your customers as your customers, presumably.  I don't know if it will make the guy stop calling your customers, but it should ease their fears somewhat.

Regards.
« Last Edit: 04-06-05 at 12:29 pm by JimIvey »
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