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Author Topic: interview with examiner  (Read 650 times)

yujin

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interview with examiner
« on: 12-13-10 at 01:04 pm »

Hi,

I am an in-house counsel and our company has an outside counsel who has been helping us file patent application.

We both don't know how the examiner interpretes a reference in way which anticipates our claim.   The interpretation doesn't seem making sense.  I wonder if I can call and talk to the examiner and ask him how he saw the referecen in that way or I have to let the outside counsel to talk to the examiner.

What are the downsides of interviewing an examiner?  May the examiner comes up with more references against our patent application, if we talk to him?

If I can talk to the examiner, should I make an appointment? 

Anyone has any suggestion what I should do.


By the way, how do your guys judge the work quality of an outside counsel? 
I am a bigginner and my experience doesn't  give me the confidence to judge the work quality.But I want to make sure that we have a good patent to protect our invention.


Thank you very much,

Jin
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Ghoti

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Re: interview with examiner
« Reply #1 on: 12-14-10 at 03:43 am »

Yes, a meeting can be set up with the examiner, and as in-house, there would be no problem to attend, but I think that it should be set up by your counsel and you just attending.

Checking the quality of work of outside counsel is not a trivial task. I've been working in-house for years now with attorneys I consider good, average and well below. Heres a list of things that aren't that hard to pick (from an in-house review) that are clear indicators that the attorney is not great (in my personal, humble, still-studying opinion).
- That they read the invention document and draft based on that document....I've had this problem...which leads me to my next point.
- That if I ask for a modification they make it, not just cut and paste the words that I write, but read through the words to understand the point and then update the speci accordingly.
- They don't use conflicting/inconsistent use of the same term, through both the speci and the claims.
- The speci is technically correct. Its okay to make mistakes on the small incidental things (thats why you review the speci), but when the point of the patent is that eg the device is lightweight plastic, and then they try to broaden it out to lead, thats a clear indicator to me that they have missed the point.
- That the prior art that I identified prior to them starting drafting was taken into account during the drafting.
- That the dependent claims include features that are truely relevant to the products (competitors and yours). Sometimes the dependents move to irrelevant features. I think they do that because they are patentable features, but they need to be competitively useful. This is much harder for a new attorney to do becuase they need a lot more knowledge of your company/industry than the other points and its likely that you didn't provide this information in your invention document.
- This may be a style preference, but if eg a term appears in the patent that I've never heard of before and it doesn't make sense, I wanted to have been asked first. I don't like suprises when I review.

There are other posts on the above that may be useful.

Hope that helps.
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yujin

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Re: interview with examiner
« Reply #2 on: 12-14-10 at 06:38 am »

Your suggestions are very helpful.  Thank you very much.
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bleedingpen

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Re: interview with examiner
« Reply #3 on: 12-15-10 at 11:19 am »

Yes, a meeting can be set up with the examiner, and as in-house, there would be no problem to attend, but I think that it should be set up by your counsel and you just attending.

Checking the quality of work of outside counsel is not a trivial task. I've been working in-house for years now with attorneys I consider good, average and well below. Heres a list of things that aren't that hard to pick (from an in-house review) that are clear indicators that the attorney is not great (in my personal, humble, still-studying opinion).
- That they read the invention document and draft based on that document....I've had this problem...which leads me to my next point.
- That if I ask for a modification they make it, not just cut and paste the words that I write, but read through the words to understand the point and then update the speci accordingly.
- They don't use conflicting/inconsistent use of the same term, through both the speci and the claims.
- The speci is technically correct. Its okay to make mistakes on the small incidental things (thats why you review the speci), but when the point of the patent is that eg the device is lightweight plastic, and then they try to broaden it out to lead, thats a clear indicator to me that they have missed the point.
- That the prior art that I identified prior to them starting drafting was taken into account during the drafting.
- That the dependent claims include features that are truely relevant to the products (competitors and yours). Sometimes the dependents move to irrelevant features. I think they do that because they are patentable features, but they need to be competitively useful. This is much harder for a new attorney to do becuase they need a lot more knowledge of your company/industry than the other points and its likely that you didn't provide this information in your invention document.
- This may be a style preference, but if eg a term appears in the patent that I've never heard of before and it doesn't make sense, I wanted to have been asked first. I don't like suprises when I review.

There are other posts on the above that may be useful.

Hope that helps.


Ghoti,

how do you handle poor quality outside counsel?  I have been surprised by the revelations from some in-house people about the quality of their outside service providers, yet they continue to use the outside service providers without switching to another firm. 
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klaviernista

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Re: interview with examiner
« Reply #4 on: 12-15-10 at 03:38 pm »

"We both don't know how the examiner interpretes a reference in way which anticipates our claim.   The interpretation doesn't seem making sense.  I wonder if I can call and talk to the examiner and ask him how he saw the referecen in that way or I have to let the outside counsel to talk to the examiner."

The circumstances described certainly suggest that an interview is warranted, and possibly necessary.  But before I expend the time and resources to have an interview, I always try to determine whether the issue is that I don;t understand how the examiner: a) is interpreting the applied reference; or b) has interpreted the claim language.  Regardless of the answer, an examiner interview can be valuable.  However, the latter case is often easier to figure out (even without an interview), and can often be adequately address in a written response.

"What are the downsides of interviewing an examiner?"

There are a number of possible downsides, all of which are easily mitigated.  The most obvious downside to having an examiner interview is the cost and time involved.  If you are hiring outside counsel to conduct the interview, they will often bill for the time spent traveling to the PTO, preparing for the interview, and conducting the interview.  Thus, without a meaningful cap, a simple 20 minute interview can cost as much as $1000 or more in attorneys fees!  So, consider negotiating a flat rate for the interview with your outside counsel.  Another potenttial downside is the creation of a "negative" interview summary, or an interview summary that contains unfortunate statements that you don't want to appear in court.  That downside is easily addressed by conducting the interview in person, if possible.  It is often the case that an attorney who conducts an in person examiner interview can dictate the interview summary to the examiner.  In that way, the interview summary says nothing more, or less, than what the attorney wants it to say. The last potential downside I will mention is that it is quite possible to piss off the examiner during an interview.  I've posted a couple of times about an interview that I remember from my time at the PTO, some 10 years ago, where the applicant's attorney acted like a complete ass.  So, if you do decide to have an interview, be respectiful to the examiner.  He/she is a busy person, and they do not (generally) hold any ill will against an applicant or attorney who asks conducts themselves in a professional manner.

"May the examiner comes up with more references against our patent application, if we talk to him? "

An examiner can always dig up more references.  Conducting an interview does not, in my experience, increase this risk.  Of course, you would not want to say anything damaging to your case during the interview, which would lead the examiner to art that they might not otherwise have considered (bearing in mind your duty to disclose material information to the PTO, of course).

"If I can talk to the examiner, should I make an appointment?"

Absolutely.  If you cold call the examiner, he or she will rarely be willing to speak to you about a particular case. As previously mentioned, examiners are busy people.  More senior examiners look at 10-20 cases per week, sometimes more, and cannot be expected to remember the nuances of your case instataneously.  Thus, an examiner will most often request that the interview take place after he/she has had a period of time to review the applicant in question.
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This post is not legal advice.  I am not your attorney.  You rely on anything I say at your own risk. If you want to reach me directly, send me a PM through the board.  I do not check the email associated with my profile often.

Ghoti

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Re: interview with examiner
« Reply #5 on: 12-15-10 at 04:13 pm »

Bleedingpen

I should start by pointing out that I'm not in charge
so the below is purely speculation of the motives of
those above me.

I think fear is the major reason to keep a not so good firm.
Fear that we need to keep them in times of high volume
Fear that other firms will be worse
Fear of the effort to bring a new firm up to speed in our technology
Fear that if we align ourselves too strongly with our best firm that they can and will hold us to ransom

One of my personal thoughts is that managers who make the decisions are not in the trenches. Thus they don't really see how bad the files are and they never experience the frustration of working with a bad firm. If a bad firm do their admin eg billing well they seem to be able to get away with poor patent work.


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Ghoti

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Re: interview with examiner
« Reply #6 on: 12-15-10 at 04:44 pm »

I'm not sure if the above answered you question. How we handle them is to give them less work and less important files.

During the drafting of a file, managing them is frustrating and time consuming. I try to view it as a learning opportunity for me so when I think something is wrong I search through text books to find out if I'm right and I also ask questions here. Short of writing it (or re-writing it) there is not much I can do.

A question to the group here is how should I show management the problems. They don't take the time to read the file and if I point out specific problems the just respond that they are fixable and that I should fix it. They seem to miss the point that the mistake should never have happened. 
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