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Author Topic: LegalZoom & Patents  (Read 1481 times)

homer3141

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LegalZoom & Patents
« on: 10-02-10 at 01:10 pm »

Hi,

I'm just wondering how good LegalZoom (and more importantly, how secure) is with patent filings. I have a very expensive patent, and my main objective is to not be another Robert Kearns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kearns).

I've used them once already, and they referred me to some random Japanese patent firm in North Carolina. No big deal, if the patent gets filed correctly without anyone stealing the idea, all is well.

Is legalzoom still a good source for important patents?

I have other questions, however this is my biggest one.
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MYK

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Re: LegalZoom & Patents
« Reply #1 on: 10-02-10 at 01:32 pm »

If you haven't even filed yet, you don't have a patent, you have a patent application.  Well, a draft of a patent application, since it's not quite an application until it gets filed, at least in some senses. . . .

A Japanese firm in North Carolina?  (LOLWUT Pear image goes here.)

If they've referred you to a USPTO-registered patent agent or USPTO-registered patent attorney, then the registered practitioner is legally obligated to you not to go around handing your filing papers out on streetcorners to random passersby and foreign spies.  If s/he does that, you can sue him.

If the draft of your application was so expensive to prepare, why don't you just use the same firm to file it that helped you prepare it?  Was it an invention promotion outfit that does its work by shipping it overseas and then pocketing the difference? and that, because nobody at the outfit is registered, can't do the filing?  If so, you may already be hosed.

Anyway, if you're really worried about security, and if you already have the application fully drafted and ready to file, why not just do it yourself at the USPTO website?  That way, nobody but you and the USPTO computers will see it, at least until the OPAP (formerly OIPE) reviews it to see that all the drawings are present and the papers are in order.  They even take credit cards.

As far as being the next Kearns . . . his problem wasn't security prior to filing, it was that the auto industry thought they could get away with screwing him out of royalties after he already had filed and patented the invention.  Totally different battle.
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homer3141

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Re: LegalZoom & Patents
« Reply #2 on: 10-02-10 at 05:59 pm »

Many thanks for the reply.

First off, you mentioned that I can go file at the USPTO's website myself... does this mean I can forget about legalzoom and simply file it directly myself? Do I file a provisional patent on their website, and then file a utility patent on their website? (In that order)

When I said expensive patent, I was trying to say "a very good idea that someone would likely steal" without sounding arrogant.

I suppose "sending" my patent to corporations for potential royalties is something I'll deal with after filing. Anyways, with the USPTO, it sounds like I don't need lawyers to file for a patent, it's just a upload and pay via the web...? thanks.

If you haven't even filed yet, you don't have a patent, you have a patent application.  Well, a draft of a patent application, since it's not quite an application until it gets filed, at least in some senses. . . .

A Japanese firm in North Carolina?  (LOLWUT Pear image goes here.)

If they've referred you to a USPTO-registered patent agent or USPTO-registered patent attorney, then the registered practitioner is legally obligated to you not to go around handing your filing papers out on streetcorners to random passersby and foreign spies.  If s/he does that, you can sue him.

If the draft of your application was so expensive to prepare, why don't you just use the same firm to file it that helped you prepare it?  Was it an invention promotion outfit that does its work by shipping it overseas and then pocketing the difference? and that, because nobody at the outfit is registered, can't do the filing?  If so, you may already be hosed.

Anyway, if you're really worried about security, and if you already have the application fully drafted and ready to file, why not just do it yourself at the USPTO website?  That way, nobody but you and the USPTO computers will see it, at least until the OPAP (formerly OIPE) reviews it to see that all the drawings are present and the papers are in order.  They even take credit cards.

As far as being the next Kearns . . . his problem wasn't security prior to filing, it was that the auto industry thought they could get away with screwing him out of royalties after he already had filed and patented the invention.  Totally different battle.
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Monkey1

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Re: LegalZoom & Patents
« Reply #3 on: 10-02-10 at 08:57 pm »

I'm just wondering how good LegalZoom (and more importantly, how secure) is with patent filings. I have a very expensive patent, and my main objective is to not be another Robert Kearns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kearns).

You get what you pay for.  Actually, it is very unlikely to get more than what you pay for, but it is not uncommon to get less than what you pay for.

If I have a very expensive patent, if i understood your meaning of "expensive," I would not rely on any website designeed to provide cookie-cutter legal services to make money from the mass to get my patent.  Doing so, I may not even have a valid/strong patent to be another Robert Kearns.

Is legalzoom still a good source for important patents?

I would talk to an experienced patent attorney/agent who has worked on similar inventions or technical area.
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Wiscagent

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Re: LegalZoom & Patents
« Reply #4 on: 10-02-10 at 09:51 pm »

I took a quick look at the Legal Zoom website; it appears that Legal Zoom acts as a broker and farms out work to registered patent practitioners.  (There may be ethical issues with that method of doing business.)

Based on the web site, Legal Zoom charges $3788 to $6424 to prepare and file a regular utility patent application, and that does not include prosecution of the application.

It’s not clear to me, for they typical inventor, why there would be any advantage in using Legal Zoom rather than just directly hiring a patent practitioner.

And to the original poster:  Yes you can directly file a patent application with the USPTO.  But are you confident that you understand patent law well enough to do a good job?  Or do you think that obtaining a patent is sufficiently important that you should hire a professional?
-----------------
I have no personal experience with Legal Zoom.  My comments are just based on a quick look at their web site.  Perhaps there is some “value added” aspect to Legal Zoom, but I don’t know what that would be.
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doug vagedes

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Re: LegalZoom & Patents
« Reply #5 on: 10-03-10 at 04:17 am »

Homer, you ask a question about "filing a provisional [application]... then a utility patent. (in that order)" and then you go on to say that it "sounds like I don't need lawyers".  You may want to consider how flawed your thinking is.  If your idea is that good or "expensive" why would you want to risk the potential and do this yourself?  A more important question, when your idea is making millions and someone knocks you off, would you rather go to court with your patent or one written and filed by an attorney who does this for a living?  And not legal zoom.

Even filing a provisional application is flawed and can cause problems that people just don't understand. 

If your idea is that good, hire a professional.

My opinion only, as I am not an attorney.
« Last Edit: 10-03-10 at 04:25 am by doug vagedes »
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bleedingpen

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Re: LegalZoom & Patents
« Reply #6 on: 10-03-10 at 05:00 am »

I have reviewed some LegalZoom work and it was all LegalCrap. 

LegalZoom might work for those legal issues that a cookie-cutter approach may work on-filing LLC papers and preparing a will might be examples.  LegalZoom is not going to be a good option for patent preparation and prosecution.

As with many questions, if you have to ask it, you already know the answer.
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homer3141

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Re: LegalZoom & Patents
« Reply #7 on: 10-03-10 at 09:42 am »

Okay, thanks for the input.

First point: Provisional vs. Utility patent.

I was under the impression you filed for a provisional patent, which gives you 12 month protection, and then file a utility patent within that 12 months. Am I incorrect?

Second point: Filing on the USPTO website.

A provisional patent is only around $299 on legalzoom; compared to fees on the USPTO website, it must not be that difficult to file on the website. What's the big deal here?

Third point: Protections of a provisional patent.

This correlates somewhat to my first point about provisional vs. utility patents; Will a provisional patent give you full protection for the 12 month time period?

Fourth point: Legalzoom.

Almost all of the replies are dis-recommending legalzoom; is it really that bad? I am using them now for another patent, and albeit the filing is not complete, so far it seems quite fine. What's the big deal about filing on a law firmed website versus an in person law firm?
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BobRoberts

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Re: LegalZoom & Patents
« Reply #8 on: 10-03-10 at 02:41 pm »

Homer 3141,

In short, you can handle all patent preparation and filing, both provisional and non-provisional, yourself.  The downside in doing this is your lack of experience.  It is expensive to have a patent application properly prepared.  I'll say that again- it is expensive to have a patnet application prepared.  Depending on the complexity and the technology area, and your physical location, it may cost $4,000 - $20,000 for an application (or even more in extremely complex or very comprehensive cases, and in very limited circumstances, may be under $4,000). 

So now you have to ask yourself "what am I getting by paying a Patent Attorney/Agent to draft my patent application myself".  Essentially, a viable patent application that hopefully matures, someday, into a viable patent. 
There are two sides of a patent application document- The technology side, and the 'legal' side.  You may very-well understand the technology side, but if you don't understand the legal requirements and ramifications of wording in a patent application and the 'Claims' section, you may (and very likely will) forfeit your invention to the public. 

The reason it is so expensive to have a patent application prepared is because it is not easy work.  In addition to being able to understand your invention sufficiently to put it into Figures and writing, a patent attorney must be current on the current state of the law.  The way a patent application is worded can strongly affect the coverage of any patent that issues, to the effect that a poorly drafted patent can easily be designed-around, or invalidated (especially if it doesn't meet Best Mode, Enablement and Written Description requirements, Disclosure requirements, etc...)- Invalidated meaning that you would have NO patent rights whatsoever. 

It takes 2-3 years to properly train a patent attorney/agent in the legal requirements of a patent application, dealings before the Patent and Trademark Office, proper wording and "how to" drafting of the Claims Section (that defines your invention).  This is 2-3 years at 40-50 hour or more work weeks, 50 weeks a year.  And there are a whole slew of querries before you even get to the the patent drafting stage, such as the degree of secrecy you've exercised with the invention, if/when you've publically disclosed the invention (I guess the same as secrecy), who is ok to disclose the invention to outside of a written Non-disclosure agreement, whether you've used the invention in a commercial sense (even if kept secret), whether you've used the invention in the public (outside your home or some development lab), whether you've offered for sale or sold your invention - all of which could affect your rights to your invention. 

I've never come across an independent non-patent-attorney inventor that came close to adequately preparing their patent application.  I've had many come into my office, after attempting to prosecute their own invention, with several goings back and forth with the US PAtent and Trademark Office, and having already paid the filing fee, several late fees and extensions of time fees, and were presented with a communication from the patent office saying that they were non-responsive and that their application his in danger of being abandoned.  They had already paid $2,000 - $3,000 in fees, and I'm sure frustration in dealing with the Patent Office, simply because they were ill-equipped to perform that task.  And, when they met with me, I had to tell them that the quality of the application prepared, likely wouldn't protect them even remotely from anyone that wanted to "steal" their invention.  In some limited circumstances, I was able to tell them that the disclosure they made could be partially salvageable, but because the amount of work and effort in salvaging the application it would cost essentially the same as if they had come to me in the first instance.  In other cases, I had to tell them that there was nothing I could do for them,that likely their invention as was publically disclosed was in effect donated to the public and no longer protectable by patent.  And believe it or not, it breaks my heart to have to deliver bad news to these people who are so excited and enthusiastic about their invention. 

It wasn't uncommon for them to tell me that they've kept their invention secret, but in the next sentence mention that they were having a local shop prepare a prototype, but there wasn't any agreement to keep the invention secret, or how
they kept the invention secret but that they received a quote from some local shop that <some number of units> could be produced for <some dolar amount> again, withput any nondisclosure agreement in place.
 
Do yourself a favor, and meet with a patent attorney/agent.  It's really a matter of being penny-wise but dollar foolish if you don't. 

Best of Luck
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JimIvey

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Re: LegalZoom & Patents
« Reply #9 on: 10-03-10 at 03:15 pm »

First point: Provisional vs. Utility patent.

I was under the impression you filed for a provisional patent, which gives you 12 month protection, and then file a utility patent within that 12 months. Am I incorrect?

Yes, you are incorrect.

The 12 months is given to you by 35 USC S 102(b), not by a provisional application. 

You can protect rights outside the US with a non-provisional application, or a provisional application which meets precisely the same legal standard, which is set forth by 35 USC S 112, first paragraph.  In other words, if it's not good enough to be a non-provisional application, it's not good enough to be a provisional application.  The law that measures sufficiency is exactly the same for both.

Note that the law refers to "the invention".  "The invention" is defined by your claims.  And, not your claims as filed but your claims as ultimately amended.  In other words, the sufficiency of the application's disclosure is measured by your claims as you might wish they were far down the path of prosecution.  So, you have to have some idea of what your claims might ultimately look like.  That's a big portion of the tricky part of writing a good application.  A provisional application doesn't even require claims, and many suggest this is where you save a lot of money.  However, if your provisional application is written without any awareness of what you might like to claim years into the future, it's highly unlikely that your provisional application will provide any benefit whatsoever.

Second point: Filing on the USPTO website.

A provisional patent is only around $299 on legalzoom; compared to fees on the USPTO website, it must not be that difficult to file on the website. What's the big deal here?

Not sure what you're asking.  Assuming you're asking why you just can't file your own rather than using LegalZoom, I suppose there's really no difference.  There's no way anyone could comply with the requirements of 35 USC S 112, p1 for less than $200.  So, it's probably worth $0 (no partial credit in patents -- either you did it right or you didn't).  Considering that you might think you're "protected" in some way and make poor choices that cost you all your patent rights in that particular invention, the loss is really open-ended -- you can lose everything.

Third point: Protections of a provisional patent.

This correlates somewhat to my first point about provisional vs. utility patents; Will a provisional patent give you full protection for the 12 month time period?

Provisional applications provide almost no "protection".  They don't prevent anyone from using your invention at all.  Neither do non-provisional applications. 

A provisional application written as well as a non-provisional application can prevent your own activities (and perhaps some activities of others) that occur after your filing from interfering with your ability to get a patent down the road.  That's the only protection you have from any patent application and, unless your provisional application is written as well as a non-provisional application, you don't even get that little bit from your provisional application.

Fourth point: Legalzoom.

Almost all of the replies are dis-recommending legalzoom; is it really that bad? I am using them now for another patent, and albeit the filing is not complete, so far it seems quite fine. What's the big deal about filing on a law firmed website versus an in person law firm?

I don't know anything about LegalZoom, but I do know patents reasonably well.  Even perfectly legitimate patent attorneys and agents misunderstand and misuse provisional applications.  They don't do what many think they do.

What I do know is that it's near impossible to comply with 35 USC S 112, first paragraph for even the most simple applications for less than $200 ($299 less USPTO fees); it just takes too long to study the invention and write it up.  So, I would wager substantial sums that what LegalZoom is offering to do isn't worth anything, let alone $200 or so.

I hope that clarifies some things.

Regards.
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bleedingpen

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Re: LegalZoom & Patents
« Reply #10 on: 10-03-10 at 06:47 pm »


Almost all of the replies are dis-recommending legalzoom; is it really that bad? I am using them now for another patent, and albeit the filing is not complete, so far it seems quite fine. What's the big deal about filing on a law firmed website versus an in person law firm?


Homer, just consider the quality of any law firms aligning themselves with LegalZoom.  While there may be good quality firms doing work for LegalZoom, it is much more likely that an out of work 1st or 2nd year attorney is doing the work for you.  Or heck, it may not even be an attorney. 


Just keep that in mind.  Good attorneys have good clients and don't have to resort to LegalZoom for their workload. 
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MYK

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Re: LegalZoom & Patents
« Reply #11 on: 10-03-10 at 10:29 pm »

(There may be ethical issues with that method of doing business.)
Which may be why LegalZoom is being sued by a couple of states, last I heard.  (Insert stonefacedly ironic smiley here.)

And to the original poster:  Yes you can directly file a patent application with the USPTO.  But are you confident that you understand patent law well enough to do a good job?  Or do you think that obtaining a patent is sufficiently important that you should hire a professional?
My comment was based on the (apparently incorrect) reading of his post that he had already had a patent application drafted for him by a law firm.  Uploading the application to EFS, and providing your address and a credit card number, isn't all that difficult (although if you screw up, you're potentially hosed -- and of course "screwing up" can include not understanding which forms to include, such as the Oath/Declaration).

If the OP hasn't even gotten an application drafted for him yet, my comment doesn't apply.
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MYK

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Re: LegalZoom & Patents
« Reply #12 on: 10-03-10 at 10:32 pm »

Homer, just consider the quality of any law firms aligning themselves with LegalZoom.  While there may be good quality firms doing work for LegalZoom, it is much more likely that an out of work 1st or 2nd year attorney is doing the work for you.  Or heck, it may not even be an attorney. 

Just keep that in mind.  Good attorneys have good clients and don't have to resort to LegalZoom for their workload. 
Hey man, in another twelve months, I'll most likely resemble that remark. :(

Aside: patent agents are fine too.  I realize there is a bias in favor of attorneys, and I even agree that law school has helped me significantly in understanding the whole hairy incoherent mess (flashback to my cat ownedship days), but my inherent anti-credentialist position still forces me to insist that patent agents can do quality work too.  Some of my best friends are patent agents.  So there.
« Last Edit: 10-03-10 at 10:37 pm by MYK »
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vman11

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Re: LegalZoom & Patents
« Reply #13 on: 10-04-10 at 08:24 am »

Quote
I suppose "sending" my patent to corporations for potential royalties is something I'll deal with after filing. Anyways, with the USPTO, it sounds like I don't need lawyers to file for a patent, it's just a upload and pay via the web...? thanks.

Ensure if you would that you have a patent application on file before you do approach corporations, yes.

Preferably, get a patent practitioner to file a PCT application, instead of a US provisional. This has many advantages. You get for the price of your PCT application an opinion as to whether your invention has novelty, inventive step and industrial applicability. You do not get this benefit with a provisional. This search report and written opinion may prove helpful in pitching your idea (and its potential value) to corporations. A patent application itself is worth very little till it issues as a patent (and even then the scope of the claims + pre-existing state of the art etc. determine the value of the patent) and a written opinion by an International Search Authority is a good gauge of the 'neatness' (note, not a legal term) of the 'invention' versus existing prior art.

Plus, a PCT application will hold your place in line and give you 30 months worldwide (PCT members, and yes 30 could be 28 - 29 etc based on various countries) from the date of priority to file follow-up patents in various countries. With a US provisional you get 12 months to make a move.

Yes, unless you have plenty on time on your hands and like indulging in Russian Roulette, don't write or prosecute your own patent application.
« Last Edit: 10-04-10 at 02:44 pm by vman11 »
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