Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[PatentDraftsman]

How much should patent drawings cost?
What is the difference between raster and vector?
My client has 3D model geometry. Can my draftsperson use it to prepare 2D patent drawings?
What is the difference between perspective and isometric drawings?
Are there any drawing programs that magically trace a photo into a line drawings?
What are the USPTO standards for pen weights and font size?
Can I use grey tones in my patent drawings?
Is 2 hours, 2 days or 2 weeks a good turn-around time for patent drawings?
Should I expect my patent draftsperson to work through the weekend without an additional charge?
Are my PowerPoint or Visio drawings good enough?
Why do some complex looking drawings cost less than simple ones?
What is the best source materials for my draftsperson?
Are patent drawings technical illustrations?
Should I let my patent draftsperon and my client communicate to make sure they have the right files?
What software is best for producing patent drawings?
In the past, I paid "by the sheet", now I am charged by the hour. Is this fair?
What is the fair market value for patent drawings? How is it measured?
Should I be charged for my draftsperson's mistakes?

Above a just a few of a thousand questions regarding patent drawings. My goal here is to provide answers to these and other questions. I've been producing patent drawings for about 40 years. I began as an "inker" for a patent draftsman who taught me the ropes. I estimate my production at more than 30,000 sheets of drawings. I continue to be very productive pumping out several applications every week.

So what's your question?

I'll do my best to provide a quick and accurate answer.

I welcome opposing views and expect this thread to be lively.

Mike Maloney
PatentDraftsman

mmaloney@iplawdrawings.com
http://www.iplawdrawings.com

[blakesq]

Great. Why don't you start by answering all the questions you just posted! 

[PatentDraftsman]

^ I had the same tough myself - just minutes ago. Plus, after I posted the off-the-top-of-my-head questions, I came up with a dozen more. Later today, as time permits, I'll pick one and expand. That is unless someone has a specific question for me to respond to first.

[Robert K S]

I was about to give you props on the cool avatar, Mike, but alas, instead it receives an objection to the drawings under 37 CFR 1.84(m) for having an area of solid black shading. 

[PatentDraftsman]

I was about to give you props on the cool avatar, Mike, but alas, instead it receives an objection to the drawings under 37 CFR 1.84(m) for having an area of solid black shading. 

Ah yes, solid black. And superfluous to boot. Them pesky examiners would be all over me - like a.... ummmm... like, like... well, like an examiner.

[Jonathan]

I would like to know the answers to these:

What is the difference between raster and vector?

Can I use grey tones in my patent drawings?

Are there any drawing programs that magically trace a photo into a line drawings?

My own question:

I have seen patents issue with photos. Is it just luck that an Examiner didn't flag it?

[PatentDraftsman]

I would like to know the answers to these:

What is the difference between raster and vector?

Can I use grey tones in my patent drawings?

Are there any drawing programs that magically trace a photo into a line drawings?

My own question:

I have seen patents issue with photos. Is it just luck that an Examiner didn't flag it?

Ok Jonathan, let's tackle the raster / vector matter first. And let's see if the topic grows. This is a complex yet extremely important question. I submitted a response to request for quotation on a large project just this morning. As I recall, it had 24 views, some of them quite complex. I told the attorney it would cost "$X" if I worked from the raster files but less than half that amount if I had the vector files to work from. I also told the attorney the turn-around would be faster and the quality higher if I had the vector images. I knew the vector images existed somewhere because the source material was scanned (bitmapped) vector (engineering) drawings.

This is a simple subject, but requires samples and explanations. Just remember.... RASTER = DISASTER

Raster as source materials for the draftsperson will cost you more and produce inferior results. This is a constant.

Ok HERE is an example of a simple vector file.

HERE is a raster version of the same image.

Raster files are pixels. The pixel per inch count can increase or decrease the graininess at 100%. However, enlarging a raster image will increase the poor quality proportionately. You can enlarge a vector image until the cows come home and the image will remain crisp and clear.

 

[MYK]

To what extent are you allowed to base your own drawings on drawings from published patents?

I have seen patents issue with photos. Is it just luck that an Examiner didn't flag it?

There are some cases where photos, either color or B&W, are allowed.  I know modern plant patents use them somewhat regularly.  See MPEP 608.01(f) and 37 CFR 1.84(b).  Color apparently requires a boilerplate notice in the patent text and payment of a fee (same as color drawings), but it looks like the only requirement for B&W is that photographs be "the only practicable medium for illustrating the claimed invention."

[PatentDraftsman]

To what extent are you allowed to base your own drawings on drawings from published patents?

I have seen patents issue with photos. Is it just luck that an Examiner didn't flag it?

There are some cases where photos, either color or B&W, are allowed.  I know modern plant patents use them somewhat regularly.  See MPEP 608.01(f) and 37 CFR 1.84(b).  Color apparently requires a boilerplate notice in the patent text and payment of a fee (same as color drawings), but it looks like the only requirement for B&W is that photographs be "the only practicable medium for illustrating the claimed invention."

And who decides what the practicable medium for illustrating the claimed invention is? I've pulled many applications out of the fire by using my creative experience to find unique ways to illustrate a claimed invention. For instance, there are patents showing THERMOGRAPHIC IMAGES. Is there a way to illustrate these images with black and white line art? In most cases yes. I believe photographs should be used as a last resort.

I have seen many scanned photos used in provisional applications. The problem is the labor involved to formalize the drawings as submitted with the provisional. Often, the scans are dark, vague and difficult to turn into line art. And frequently the original photo (digital) is missing and the best source material for the draftsperson is the art as submitted. This can add a lot of extra production (labor) cost. Avoid the extra production cost by keeping the digital camera images with the file.

[bleedingpen]

I have seen many scanned photos used in provisional applications. The problem is the labor involved to formalize the drawings as submitted with the provisional. Often, the scans are dark, vague and difficult to turn into line art. And frequently the original photo (digital) is missing and the best source material for the draftsperson is the art as submitted. This can add a lot of extra production (labor) cost. Avoid the extra production cost by keeping the digital camera images with the file.

This can be fixed by not filing provisionals.  But if you must, the best way to "fix" photos in provisionals is to paste them into a word document, set them to grayscale, and then convert to PDF. 

[PatentDraftsman]

I have seen many scanned photos used in provisional applications. The problem is the labor involved to formalize the drawings as submitted with the provisional. Often, the scans are dark, vague and difficult to turn into line art. And frequently the original photo (digital) is missing and the best source material for the draftsperson is the art as submitted. This can add a lot of extra production (labor) cost. Avoid the extra production cost by keeping the digital camera images with the file.

This can be fixed by not filing provisionals.  But if you must, the best way to "fix" photos in provisionals is to paste them into a word document, set them to grayscale, and then convert to PDF. 

I often extract halftone (grayscale) images from Word documents as a basis for formal patent drawings. I place the images in the background layer and create a vector line drawing of the image. I always try to get the "originals" (digital photos or 1st generation scans) from my clients. Pasting photos into Word is a "good" solution, but the quality of the images (which is important down stream) depends on the skill of the author. Often an attorney (or someone in his/her office) will take a digital photo, print it (laser printer), scan it as a TIFF or JPG and paste it into the Word document. The quality settings on the scanner is important. A grainy scan of a grainy printed image can leave a mud pie at the end of the day (project cycle) for the draftsperson to work with - when it is time to formalize the drawings.

[bleedingpen]

I have seen many scanned photos used in provisional applications. The problem is the labor involved to formalize the drawings as submitted with the provisional. Often, the scans are dark, vague and difficult to turn into line art. And frequently the original photo (digital) is missing and the best source material for the draftsperson is the art as submitted. This can add a lot of extra production (labor) cost. Avoid the extra production cost by keeping the digital camera images with the file.

This can be fixed by not filing provisionals.  But if you must, the best way to "fix" photos in provisionals is to paste them into a word document, set them to grayscale, and then convert to PDF. 

I often extract halftone (grayscale) images from Word documents as a basis for formal patent drawings. I place the images in the background layer and create a vector line drawing of the image. I always try to get the "originals" (digital photos or 1st generation scans) from my clients. Pasting photos into Word is a "good" solution, but the quality of the images (which is important down stream) depends on the skill of the author. Often an attorney (or someone in his/her office) will take a digital photo, print it (laser printer), scan it as a TIFF or JPG and paste it into the Word document. The quality settings on the scanner is important. A grainy scan of a grainy printed image can leave a mud pie at the end of the day (project cycle) for the draftsperson to work with - when it is time to formalize the drawings.

Well that's just stupid.  If you have a digital photo, don't print it and scan it.  Just copy and paste it using any of at least a dozen software programs that will do that for.

With that said, I have seen some patent attorneys do exactly what you are describing.  They are almost always older attorneys that should be put out to pasture anyways. 

[PatentDraftsman]

I have seen many scanned photos used in provisional applications. The problem is the labor involved to formalize the drawings as submitted with the provisional. Often, the scans are dark, vague and difficult to turn into line art. And frequently the original photo (digital) is missing and the best source material for the draftsperson is the art as submitted. This can add a lot of extra production (labor) cost. Avoid the extra production cost by keeping the digital camera images with the file.

This can be fixed by not filing provisionals.  But if you must, the best way to "fix" photos in provisionals is to paste them into a word document, set them to grayscale, and then convert to PDF. 

I often extract halftone (grayscale) images from Word documents as a basis for formal patent drawings. I place the images in the background layer and create a vector line drawing of the image. I always try to get the "originals" (digital photos or 1st generation scans) from my clients. Pasting photos into Word is a "good" solution, but the quality of the images (which is important down stream) depends on the skill of the author. Often an attorney (or someone in his/her office) will take a digital photo, print it (laser printer), scan it as a TIFF or JPG and paste it into the Word document. The quality settings on the scanner is important. A grainy scan of a grainy printed image can leave a mud pie at the end of the day (project cycle) for the draftsperson to work with - when it is time to formalize the drawings.

Well that's just stupid.  If you have a digital photo, don't print it and scan it.  Just copy and paste it using any of at least a dozen software programs that will do that for.

With that said, I have seen some patent attorneys do exactly what you are describing.  They are almost always older attorneys that should be put out to pasture anyways. 

With that said, I see it all the time. Providing poor scans of perfectly good digital photos for the draftsperson to go by costs everyone time and money. I say everyone because the inventor is often charged, the attorney is charged by the draftsperson (speaking for myself) who often takes it on the chin. That is, if a plate takes hours and hours to produce due to poor source materials, the work is often discounted to keep the price per sheet within the fair market value. It is a difficult formula (for me), but I mentioned the fair market value in my original post. This is a topic I'll expand on at a later time.

Oh, and I think I may have mentioned this in an earlier post. Or some version of it. Indeed, the attorney will often take the digital photo and put it in a draft application. No problem. However, by the time I get the case, they have printed the application with the photos (perhaps a Word document), for filing or archiving in their office, and when it comes time for the drawings, they will pull a paper copy, scan it and send me a PDF built from the printed, scanned digital copy. Since the PDF is indeed digital, the attorney's office may perceive it as a "digital" copy of the art. That's when I go back and cry for the original digital photos (which are usually not filed with the Word document) or at least the best copy (preferably digital). Pulling the image from the original digital copy of the Word document is ok, but not as good as having the original (before it is sized) camera digital copy (photo).

[PatentDraftsman]

And who decides what the practicable medium for illustrating the claimed invention is? I've pulled many applications out of the fire by using my creative experience to find unique ways to illustrate a claimed invention. For instance, there are patents showing THERMOGRAPHIC IMAGES. Is there a way to illustrate these images with black and white line art? In most cases yes. I believe photographs should be used as a last resort.

I have seen many scanned photos used in provisional applications. The problem is the labor involved to formalize the drawings as submitted with the provisional. Often, the scans are dark, vague and difficult to turn into line art. And frequently the original photo (digital) is missing and the best source material for the draftsperson is the art as submitted. This can add a lot of extra production (labor) cost. Avoid the extra production cost by keeping the digital camera images with the file.


link removed /JDI/
All About your Computer

tuneup, you are 100% correct. Very well said. I run into poor provisional art every day. And yes, the original art (often digital photos / scans) are missing, creating a difficult illustration assignment. A little upfront planning can save time/cost at the end of the cycle.

[JimIvey]

tuneup, you are 100% correct. Very well said. I run into poor provisional art every day. And yes, the original art (often digital photos / scans) are missing, creating a difficult illustration assignment. A little upfront planning can save time/cost at the end of the cycle.

You responded to a spammer who just quoted an earlier post in this thread (your own, actually) in an attempt to appear topical.  I deleted the post and removed the link in your quote.

And, yes, very well said.  ;-)

Regards.