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[ashwinya]

I am a recent Patent agent and I now have an opportunity with a small firm, a senior patent agent (25+ years of exp) who has 3 other patent agents working for him. I am confident I'll be able to learn a lot from him, however am fuzzy on the money. He said he'd give me a percentage of what he's getting per application (that I work on) and left it at that. I didn't ask him any further...What percentage is normal for an entry-level patent agent? how much would be decent? What other questions about the salary should I ask him before signing the offer letter?  I have some immediate financial commitments and have to decide quickly.


Thanks

[smgsmc]

I am a recent Patent agent and I now have an opportunity with a small firm, a senior patent agent (25+ years of exp) who has 3 other patent agents working for him. I am confident I'll be able to learn a lot from him, however am fuzzy on the money. He said he'd give me a percentage of what he's getting per application (that I work on) and left it at that. I didn't ask him any further...What percentage is normal for an entry-level patent agent? how much would be decent? What other questions about the salary should I ask him before signing the offer letter?  I have some immediate financial commitments and have to decide quickly.


Thanks

30% would be reasonable for a newbie in this market.  Find out who will be training you, the senior guy or a more junior one?  Find out if he's doing high volumes at low flat rates so you can get a rough estimate of what you may expect for the year.  I took a big hit in my first year in return for training.  Doubled it the second year.  What do you need to live on?  Do you have enough savings to carry you through the first year in case you fall short?  Do you need medical and life insurance?  Vacation and holidays usually aren't covered in such an arrangement, but it doesn't hurt to ask.  Good luck. 

[UVAgal4]

I've never heard of patent agents getting a percentage instead of a salary.
It also depends on how many applications are usually filed per month. One? Five?
What about other stuff, like responding to office actions?

I would want more details.

[ME]

One point to consider is that probably the first year you do this, your work output will not be so high. Learning how to write claims and all of the other things properly takes time. It even takes a while to learn how to read patents and other doccuments quickly. It took me a full year before I started to fall into a good groove. It might be beneficial to get a base salary which allows you to live with a lower percentage at first. Another point is how many billable hours you are expected to have. It is really important to produce quality and to have someone who knows review your work critically. If they expect you to have 40 hours of billable work at the start then you should ask how the training will work.

When I first started it took a long time to write my first application. I wrote the claims, talked to the boss and it was all wrong. I rewrote the claims, we discussed them again and so on. Writing claims is as art there is really no right or wrong. You have to learn by doing it and someone has to critique it. Getting this type of feedback is very valuable.

Anyways you need to clarify how much you will earn before you accept a job...

If you get a percentage than that is really cool. It good to get to eat what you kill.

Cheers

[john122]

Sometimes, the salary for an entry patent agent also depends on the city or state the firm is located.

For example, I was simultaneously offered two patent agent entry level positions at two different patent firms about a year ago.

One firm was in New York City (NYC) and the other one was in New Jersey (NJ).

Similar to your situation, both firms offered me a percentage of each application I worked on as my salary.

The NYC firm offered 35% for each application.

The NJ firm offered 30% for each application.

I decided to go with the NJ firm because it was just closer to my house and the commute would be much less time consuming.

So, my question is, what state is the firm that offered you an entry level position located in?

[Wiscagent]

What other questions about the salary should I ask him before signing the offer letter?

 - Is the "offer letter" a contract that commits you to work for the firm for some specified amount of time?
 -  If you accept the offer, would you have to quit some job you are currently working?

If the answer to these questions is no, then you have very little to lose by trying out the new job.  If it doesn't work  for you ...  then quit

[smgsmc]

I've never heard of patent agents getting a percentage instead of a salary.
It also depends on how many applications are usually filed per month. One? Five?
What about other stuff, like responding to office actions?

I would want more details.

It's common.  I work on percentage, as do agents in 5 other firms I'm aware of, including one large NYC boutique.  It's not a bad arrangement, given that there are newbies willing to work for free in return for experience.  It's a good way to get your foot in the door because the firm incurs less risk.  The less productive you are, the less you get paid.  No hassle about a pre-negotiated salary based on min billables (or billed), and a partner cracking the whip each month if you're not meeting your numbers.  Especially in the first year it's not clear how much you will bill; takes that unknown off the table.  You get a percentage of everything billed, regardless of whether it's a new app, or office action, or prior search, or whatever.

Remember, percentage is not salary.  Firms like this deal because they don't need to keep cash around to pay you if work slows down.  The down side for you is if work does slow down, the little work that does come in will be assigned to those on salary, since they get paid regardless of whether they have work to do or not.  As I wrote above, what are your finances like?  Do you have a working spouse or a couple of month's buffer in the bank?  A major issue is *when* you get paid for work completed.  There may be a month or two lag, depending on billing and pay cycles.  For example, if you complete the work in late June, the bills get tallied in July, and you get paid in Aug.  So your take home each month can fluctuate wildly.  I've had month-to-month swings of 4X.  As someone else suggested, try to get some minimum amount each month (even if it's a couple of K).  But if you need a steady paycheck to pay the bills each month , you could run into problems.  To get your foot in the door, you may have to accept this arrangement.  After one yr (assuming you get good training ... again, clarify who will be doing that), you will be a lot more marketable and can renegotiate or split.  But definitely get down in writing what the percentage is.

Also, the percentage is more likely a function of the firm, rather than the state.  The big NYC IP boutique that I'm aware of gave 33% and that was to an agent with 3 yrs experience (he started at 30%).   Even within a firm, the percentage is negotiable.  Takes a lot of investment to train you the first year, they want you to stick around.  Also I don't want to give the impression that all agents work on percentage.  Others work on salary.  But some associates work on percentage as well.

[ashwinya]

Thanks all for the detailed replies. I live in CA, bay area, he's said he'll pay 1/3rd, but there is no number on the applications he files, it fluctuates obviously. He charges $4500- 7K per application, so that leaves me at just $1500 min. if I end up successfully drafting one application in a month's time, which I seriously doubt I'd be able to, in the first few months. He said he will also get me to work on office actions soon. My husband has a good job and good benefits, but the uncertainty is something I am not used to. I am a Software engineer and am used to getting paychecks every second week. I think it's more of a mental block and like you said, I may have to agree to the arrangement if I need a foot in the door in this market. I have a two year old who I have to send to day care if I accept this job and I was hoping it would at least pay for her day care. This is getting a little difficult.

[smgsmc]

Thanks all for the detailed replies. I live in CA, bay area, he's said he'll pay 1/3rd, but there is no number on the applications he files, it fluctuates obviously. He charges $4500- 7K per application, so that leaves me at just $1500 min. if I end up successfully drafting one application in a month's time, which I seriously doubt I'd be able to, in the first few months. He said he will also get me to work on office actions soon. My husband has a good job and good benefits, but the uncertainty is something I am not used to. I am a Software engineer and am used to getting paychecks every second week. I think it's more of a mental block and like you said, I may have to agree to the arrangement if I need a foot in the door in this market. I have a two year old who I have to send to day care if I accept this job and I was hoping it would at least pay for her day care. This is getting a little difficult.

It's a reasonable deal.  The percentage is where it should be, so he's not gouging.  That's a good sign.  He's taking business at the low to medium range, but not rock bottom.  That's a good sign.  He's hiring, so he should have enough work for you.  That's a good sign.   He's willing to hire a newbie.  That's a good sign.

The learning curve is steep.  You will take a big hit for the first 3 or so apps and office actions, but rapidly improve after that.  This is the way I viewed it, when I was in your shoes:  it sure beats paying tuition for law school.   If you're serious about becoming a patent agent, this is the break that so many on this forum are scrounging for.  My boss hired me only under these terms.  You have no track record on which to set a salary based on expected billed hours.  As someone else pointed out, the $ is in your hands:  the faster you learn, the harder you work, the more $ you make.  Which isn't always the case in industry.  There is risk in any major career shift, and only you can decide what level you are comfortable with.  But obviously you have some good reason for leaving software development.  Good luck.