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[patentsusa]

You've really nailed it here.  My boss tried to hold out for $6K min/new app, but eventually broke.  No wonder ... I talked to a friend of mine at another firm.  They're raking in more business than they can handle (lots of overflow work for contractors) at $4K a pop.  I get regular e-mail from India pitching "standard" apps for $1200 and "complex" apps for $1700.  I heard Walmart is hiring for their new discount patent services (Aisle 12).

The India apps aren't real competition.  The quality just is not there.  Whoever in the U.S. is signing the applications is taking a huge risk.  I tell people that they can get the same quality hiring an engineering student who doesn't know anything about patent law or about writing.

The type of clients who expect you to write things for 4k are usually the ones who don't really appreciate you either.  You are just overflow commodity work to them.  The present economy is tough and that's why firms are taking that sort of work.  That is one of the reasons why I am on my own now.  I decided that low volume higher price is better than high volume low price. 

It helps to have a niche within patent law.  I used to think that just being a patent attorney was a niche.  But it isn't if there are others willing to write cases for 4k.  I've made a niche out of software patents (http://www.patentsusa.com/softwarepatents.html), among other things.  The best is if you can find some venture capitalists willing to hear pitches from you.  You can charge a premium for being able to make the introductions.  Brobeck made an entire business out of that before they disintegrated.  No venture capital where I live, unfortunately. 

It is a bit like the iPad, sure Microsoft had a tablet PC years ago but Apple sells iPads because of the "killer app"--electronic books.  The specialized device is easier to sell than the device that can do everything.  I also heard that during the great depression, the people who had specialized skills or equipment did better than the people who were willing to do anything.

Same with being a specialist of some sort within patent law even though you can do a lot more things.  That is my marketing theory, anyway.  Anyone agree with me?

[khazzah]

MYK, aren't you confusing billABLE with billED?

Probably.  ... If you're told ahead of time, "maximum of four hours", is it really billABLE if it took you sixteen?

I say Yes, it is. Now, at some point, the firm may penalize you in some way if the difference is due to your own inefficiency. Firms cannot afford to ignore billED.

[still_learnin]

some of the large high volume clients dictate what they will pay per matter, they don't really care what an attorney's billable rate is. 

I'm a patent attorney at a boutique law firm. This kind of thinking meshes with mine.

In my view, we've agreed to a price that is [by definition] fair to both of us. Bill rates, associate salaries, my office rent, and how much profit I make on the matter all depends on firm internals -- nothing to do with the deal made between me and the client.

I never hear consumers complain that $400 is too much to pay for an i-Phone because "that's too much profit for Apple." Yet I get a real sense that folks think law firms are "too profitable."

[MYK]

OTOH, that one was the one where I saw another firm's cost estimate, and they wanted $1000 to do what took me two hours, and could have taken less if my boss wasn't being obnoxious about the whole thing.

I'm not sure if I'm reading this right, but did the firm give a quote for a response to a particular office action?  That seems like a horribly inefficient way to do business, for the firm at least.

Yes, that's correct.  The quote was $500 to write a letter agreeing to everything the examiner had said, or $1000 if the client wanted to contest the rejection.  Seemed outrageous to me either way, considering that the examiner had completely blown it (he "rejected" the "Description of the Prior Art" section!) and the response was trivial to write.

MYK, aren't you confusing billABLE with billED?

Probably.  ... If you're told ahead of time, "maximum of four hours", is it really billABLE if it took you sixteen?

I say Yes, it is. Now, at some point, the firm may penalize you in some way if the difference is due to your own inefficiency. Firms cannot afford to ignore billED.

Food for thought.  Thanks.

[smgsmc]

You've really nailed it here.  My boss tried to hold out for $6K min/new app, but eventually broke.  No wonder ... I talked to a friend of mine at another firm.  They're raking in more business than they can handle (lots of overflow work for contractors) at $4K a pop.  I get regular e-mail from India pitching "standard" apps for $1200 and "complex" apps for $1700.  I heard Walmart is hiring for their new discount patent services (Aisle 12).

The India apps aren't real competition.  The quality just is not there.  Whoever in the U.S. is signing the applications is taking a huge risk.  I tell people that they can get the same quality hiring an engineering student who doesn't know anything about patent law or about writing.

The type of clients who expect you to write things for 4k are usually the ones who don't really appreciate you either.  You are just overflow commodity work to them.  The present economy is tough and that's why firms are taking that sort of work.  That is one of the reasons why I am on my own now.  I decided that low volume higher price is better than high volume low price. 

It helps to have a niche within patent law.  I used to think that just being a patent attorney was a niche.  But it isn't if there are others willing to write cases for 4k.  I've made a niche out of software patents (http://www.patentsusa.com/softwarepatents.html), among other things.  The best is if you can find some venture capitalists willing to hear pitches from you.  You can charge a premium for being able to make the introductions.  Brobeck made an entire business out of that before they disintegrated.  No venture capital where I live, unfortunately. 

It is a bit like the iPad, sure Microsoft had a tablet PC years ago but Apple sells iPads because of the "killer app"--electronic books.  The specialized device is easier to sell than the device that can do everything.  I also heard that during the great depression, the people who had specialized skills or equipment did better than the people who were willing to do anything.

Same with being a specialist of some sort within patent law even though you can do a lot more things.  That is my marketing theory, anyway.  Anyone agree with me?

Well, this approach works great if you have a specialty that's in short supply and in high demand.  I went through this experience when I was in R&D.  I outlasted several rounds of layoffs because I could do certain things that no one else could do.  But then the whole division folded (in the midst of an industry-wide meltdown), and suddenly no one cared about my specialty.  Fortunately, at the time, I was able to switch fields and transfer to another division.  I did this several times in my career.  One of the reasons I became a patent agent is because I can handle a diverse range of work and am not dependent on one "hot" area which can suddenly go into a deep freeze.

So it's great if you specialize in semiconductor devices (a technically difficult field), and semiconductor companies are cranking out patents  ... but that field has been dry over the last couple of years.  I know a couple of firms that specialized in that field that have gone belly up.  Meanwhile, I handle applications ranging all over:  antennas followed by plumbing followed by numerical computation followed by social networking followed by rolling machines ....  I know a patent agent with a PhD in bio.  When her pharma clients started drying up, she wrote apps on storm windows to carry her over (true story, not a joke).  Think about all the specialists in film chemistry, CRT displays, and dial-up modems ... what are they doing now?

By the way, I'm not sure an iPad is a good example.  If you want electronic books only, get a Kindle.

[BobRoberts]

"I have seen a bunch of threads discussing the difficulties with accumulating billable hours in patent prosecution.  I understand the nature of the work requires intense concentration, and quite a few .1 or .2 hour jobs are done.  I still don't quite see why it takes say 12 hours to reach 8 billable"

Sorry if I'm just repeating what others have said...  When I was in a firm, it was easy to get pigeon-holed into a very specific technology area.  For me, it was hi-tech cellphone prosecution.  Not really the "power saving means" or the "new antenna" though I relished even those when I would get them, but more of the alterations of how the phone accomplished error-correction/viterbi algorithm, with applications that would span 50 - 100 pages (and not unnecessarily so).  The MEs usually got the less intense cellphone prosecution.  All day, almost every day.  And I know I'm not the only prosecutor that gets into this type of mind-numbing prosecution.  Mostly fixed-fee work.  Really intense EE work with little or no break.  Occasionally, I would do some legal research on an unrelated area (and loved that, if for no other reason, for the distraction). 

For me, patent prosecution each day was like intensly studying for final exams.  After about 6-8 hours (with a lunch break some days) I was completly spent.  My brain would turn to mush.  And, each time I would switch matters, there was some ramp-up time to become acquainted with the application/technology. 

With those days where I would do litigation support, and sometimes they would amount to 3-4 days in a row, with legal research and/or document discovery, I could bill 12-14 hour days, efficiently, and go home feeling "fresh".  After 6-8 hours of intense prosecution, I was tired/drained.  Just my experience as to why prosecution seemed to me to be more difficlut to bill than litigation.  I did love the technology and learning about it, but it was just draining.

[khazzah]

"I have seen a bunch of threads discussing the difficulties with accumulating billable hours in patent prosecution.  I understand the nature of the work requires intense concentration, and quite a few .1 or .2 hour jobs are done.  I still don't quite see why it takes say 12 hours to reach 8 billable"

Sorry if I'm just repeating what others have said...  After about 6-8 hours (with a lunch break some days) I was completely spent.  My brain would turn to mush. 

Bob hit on something important that others missed.
 
Bob explained why it's hard to bill 8 hours of pros every day: "my brain hurts after 8 hours".

The focused nature of the work also explains why it sometimes takes 10-11 hours *at the office* to bill 8. Prosecutors often need to take mental breaks that are only not billable to a client, they're not even non-billable. I need to take a lunch break after 4-5 hours of working because I need to relax. I need to go in the next office and chat because I need to relax. I need to surf the web because I need to relax. After a brief break, I'm recharged and ready to work again.

In this way, pros is no different than other mentally challenging tasks. When I was a software developer, there were phases of development that required this sort of mental focus. [And others that were more rote.] And I needed to take breaks then too.

The difference is that it's acceptable to be in the office from 9-6 as a developer. You're "on the clock" for 9 hours, but that *includes* your mental breaks, lunch time, talking on the phone taking care of personal business, etc. It's *not* acceptable for an attorney to be in the office from only 9-6 if you can't get your required billable minimum in during those 9 hours. The billing clock simply isn't running when you're taking mental breaks, off to lunch, or taking care of personal business., whereas the engineering clock is running all day.

[MLM]

The billing clock simply isn't running when you're taking mental breaks, off to lunch, or taking care of personal business., whereas the engineering clock is running all day.

I miss the engineering clock.