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Author Topic: Getting a job outside the U.S.  (Read 1829 times)
MYK
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« on: 07-06-10 at 04:12 pm »

Would some of our regulars who work outside the U.S. be so kind as to discuss how to job-hunt, what requirements their various countries have for foreign attorneys, and so on?

For example, I've heard that Japan requires that, in order to give legal advice (e.g., write opinion letters), a foreign attorney must have three years of post-graduate experience in their home country.  Would this mean that, were I to go there to work, I would be restricted to the role of a patent agent?
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UVAgal4
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« Reply #1 on: 07-07-10 at 12:45 am »

I have some Japanese IP friends, one of whom is a Japanese Patent Attorney, and from what she has said, it is EXTREMELY difficult. I think the bar exam pass rate is about 10%.
I don't know if there are some equivalents for foreign attorneys.
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bartmans
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« Reply #2 on: 07-07-10 at 04:24 am »

Also interested in Europe?
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UVAgal4
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« Reply #3 on: 07-08-10 at 12:37 am »

Europe is probably easier, but I suppose it depends on whether you want to do european EP prosecution or handle the US files for the Europe firm.
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Yak
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« Reply #4 on: 07-08-10 at 11:23 am »

http://www.patentlyo.com/jobs/2010/07/patent-attorney-law-firm-tokyo-japan.html

I just came across this posting.  I don't really qualify for it - wish I did, but sounds interesting if you are looking for foreign experience.  Looks like you would be working prosecuting US apps for Japanese clients and the firm is looking to open an office in US in future. 
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Szechs
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« Reply #5 on: 07-08-10 at 06:22 pm »

Would some of our regulars who work outside the U.S. be so kind as to discuss how to job-hunt, what requirements their various countries have for foreign attorneys, and so on?

For example, I've heard that Japan requires that, in order to give legal advice (e.g., write opinion letters), a foreign attorney must have three years of post-graduate experience in their home country.  Would this mean that, were I to go there to work, I would be restricted to the role of a patent agent?

Hi there. Strange as it may sound, the distinction between patent attorney and patent agent doesn't exist in many countries outside of the US. This is because in Europe, Australia and New Zealand most prosecution work is done by firms of patent agents and very little by law firms. Litigation is carried out by law firms - I don't know much about it.

From what I understand, if you are working in Japan the clients will be Japanese and any legal advice will be in Japanese, so you would not be giving any advice directly. While the patent attorney exam in Japan is very hard, you will not be taking it unless you have fluent Japanese (and even then there may be a nationality requirement). Rather you would be employed in-house or by a law firm as an expert in foreign law. You could expect to be involved in drafting, proof reading, marketing and possibly direct filing in the US (see below). China is similar, but the emphasis is on overseas rather than domestic clients - your main value would be interfacing with those foreign clients. Some multinationals employ in-house in China, but are increasingly looking for Chinese language skills or (cheaper) local hire.

Taiwan has a very strong focus on US, so you could probably get a job there on the back of your US qualification if you looked hard. Salaries are tiny, but so are living expenses. I imagine Brazil is similar.

Singapore, Hong Kong, Europe, Australia, New Zealand all have English as the working language, so qualification and more direct work with clients is possible in those jurisdictions.

Beware that in Europe the US patent bar is not well respected, because it is considered to be an easy multiple choice exam, and the attorney qualification is considered largely irrelevant to prosecution work. Decent work experience of 3+ years in the US would be respected however. I am sure the US patent bar is not easy - but that is the perception. That is because the European exam involves 4 written papers of 4-6 hours each which grade you on drafting a patent specification, response to an office action, drafting an opposition and providing pages of legal advice for rather complicated situations. It cannot even be attempted without 3 years experience and many people only pass after 5 years on the job.

If you want to work in Europe then you could get a job, but would need to requalify (training on the job). It takes a minimum of 3 years. You would also need to prove yourself as the US system is quite different to that in Europe. You could expect to receive quite a drop in pay during that time (as European attorneys are paid less and you may be considered only part-qualified), but the experience of living abroad, at least 25 days vacation a year plus public holidays and good work life balance with hours of 9am - 5 or 6pm and no or much less billing requirements. Conditions in Australia and New Zealand are similar, but I believe it is easier and quicker to qualify. In Singapore you would have to take one top up exam on local law, but the US qualification is much more respected. HK is unregulated but a US qualification would put you in good stead.

Some firms and companies may be interested in hiring you to file directly at the USPTO. I have seen adverts for such roles in UK, Germany and Japan. They seem to be on the increase.

For job hunting in order of preference try:-
existing contacts at overseas associates
internet search, job boards, and in particular headhunters in the country of interest
write speculative letter directly to firms of interest

As well as relevant experience in US, emphasize contacts you have in US (which might lead to work), and experience of international patents and first to file systems (especially for Europe).

Hope that helps.
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biomedlaw
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« Reply #6 on: 07-22-10 at 02:18 am »

Excellent post, Szechs.

From what I've read about New Zealand legal reciprocity, American lawyers must take 6 tests, 90 minutes each covering what are essentially 1L topics relating to New Zealand-specific law. New Zealand seems most similar to England, in that they're common law and a law degree is a bachelors.

Australia seems much more like the US, with JDs becoming the norm (from what I can tell). Perhaps I misread, but getting approved to practice in Australia is even easier than in New Zealand for American attorneys.

It definitely seems as though getting ~5 years US patent experience would be prudent before attempting to move anywhere else.
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patentsusa
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« Reply #7 on: 07-23-10 at 12:28 am »

Excellent post, Szechs.

From what I've read about New Zealand legal reciprocity, American lawyers must take 6 tests, 90 minutes each covering what are essentially 1L topics relating to New Zealand-specific law. New Zealand seems most similar to England, in that they're common law and a law degree is a bachelors.

Australia seems much more like the US, with JDs becoming the norm (from what I can tell). Perhaps I misread, but getting approved to practice in Australia is even easier than in New Zealand for American attorneys.

It definitely seems as though getting ~5 years US patent experience would be prudent before attempting to move anywhere else.

I've seen ads for foreign positions requiring only a couple of years of U.S. experience.  You don't necessarily need to be admitted in the foreign jurisdiction.  You could just advise the people in the firm how to draft applications to U.S. standards.  That is often the help they want.  I think five years is too much. 

I had an opportunity to go to Japan but before I got to the second stage interview, I was told that I would be making partner soon.  Don't put it off too long.
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Deepak Malhotra, JD, BSEE, Patent Attorney
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http://patentsusa.blogspot.com
MYK
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« Reply #8 on: 07-29-10 at 07:51 pm »

Also interested in Europe?

Most definitely.  For the most part, I've been thinking about any of the German-speaking countries or eastern Europe.  In addition to IP law, I thought that immigration law might be a natural fit, since it is also a federal issue.
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MYK
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« Reply #9 on: 07-29-10 at 08:08 pm »

Excellent post, Szechs.
Yes indeed!  Much appreciated!

It definitely seems as though getting ~5 years US patent experience would be prudent before attempting to move anywhere else.
Sigh. Sad  That's the problem.  I might have to fall back on bankruptcy law;  a friend recently quipped that the area he's in this summer has enough work to employ our whole section.
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MYK
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« Reply #10 on: 07-29-10 at 08:22 pm »

I have some Japanese IP friends, one of whom is a Japanese Patent Attorney, and from what she has said, it is EXTREMELY difficult. I think the bar exam pass rate is about 10%.
I don't know if there are some equivalents for foreign attorneys.
I was thinking in terms of handling U.S. patent prosecution work, and perhaps other legal issues (federal trademark, copyright, IP and/or commercial litigation, perhaps immigration) if they arose.  Nothing dealing in local law, just U.S. legal problems, and possibly state-level for whichever state(s) I get barred in.

I've heard that California and New York are the most desirable state bars;  I'm surprised Delaware isn't up there, but a Brazilian LL.M. student said that in her experience (about 5-7 years, I think), NY is preferred for choice-of-law clauses.
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ME
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« Reply #11 on: 07-30-10 at 10:47 am »

If you are looking for a job in IP in Germany, check out:
http://www.kandidatentreff.de/sm_lesen-stellenangebote.htm

You could probably find a firm where you do not need to have really good German skills, if they do enough work in English. Send the places that are looking for trainees as European patent attornies. You might be able to talk one of them into giving you a decent job and you could train to be an German and/or European patent attorney at the same time.

I have seen inhouse positions for US patent practitioners advertised at www.monster.de from time to time also.

Cheers
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AnotherCog
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« Reply #12 on: 07-30-10 at 11:51 am »

Would some of our regulars who work outside the U.S. be so kind as to discuss how to job-hunt, what requirements their various countries have for foreign attorneys, and so on?

For example, I've heard that Japan requires that, in order to give legal advice (e.g., write opinion letters), a foreign attorney must have three years of post-graduate experience in their home country.  Would this mean that, were I to go there to work, I would be restricted to the role of a patent agent?

I believe that your state bar also needs to have reciprocity with Japan to register as a gaiben (sp?).  There are only a handful that will admit those with foreign law degrees (NY and CA come to mind). 

 
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Ghoti
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« Reply #13 on: 07-31-10 at 02:26 am »

In response to an earlier post... qualifying in Australia is not 'easy'. After a bachelors degree, you need to do a Masters of Industrial property (~3 years part time), then you need to apply to be approved by the Professional standards board, based on 2 years of relevant work experience and itemised knowledge requirements.
See http://www.handbook.uts.edu.au/courses/c04150.html
and http://www.psb.gov.au/patreg.htm

The main difference between the US and Australia, is that in the US you do engineering, then law, then the patent bar. In Australia, you do engineering or law and then the Masters of Industrial Property, most do engineering rather than law.

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horsechute
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« Reply #14 on: 07-31-10 at 01:13 pm »

I want to join in and thank Szechs for a very interesting post.

Just as a brief note, I have heard that HK is becoming a favored place for arbitration, given its location and the fact that English is one of its two official languages. Also, I know one person who worked in a Japanese law firm, and he found the experience pretty miserable, although I would hardly say that only one opinion is statistically significant. It used to be almost impossible to pass their bar exam, but he told me that now the pass rate is about 30 percent, and that you have to list the year you passed in order to be fair to the people who passed earlier. 
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