Working for the USPTO

[jdhawk05]

melwrc,

Well with graduation approaching...my options seem to be dwindling and the likelihood of getting a job in a firm seems slim...

I wonder if the responsibilities for an examiner with a jd is different than that of one with a technical background...also being from the midwest it seems that maybe my law degree wont carry as far east as someone in school in the DC area...

Does your firm get a lot of mechanical patent work? or do know of the firms that do a lot of mechanical work? where are they? Im still hopeful, but the examiner job doesnt seem like it would be a bad alternative...good hours...less stress....good training... did u feel u got good training from your law firm? ( i have never heard of being hired as a patent agent without being licensed first)... thanks for any additional info and good luck in law school

jdhawk

[melwrc]

jdhawk, send an email over to the address for my acct.  we can talk further.

[New examiner]

The interview I had with the PTO for an examiner's position was really easy.  Basically, the guy was like, here's what you can expect from the job, is this something you think you would be interested in doing?  From talking to other people who were hired in the same group as me, their first interview went pretty much the same way for them also.  Oh, they'll also ask what sort of experience you've had artwise and what sort of interests you have, i.e. what would you like to examine if you were to be hired.  

I can't post my whole message since it's too long, so I'll have to break it up.

[New examiner]

The second interview was with the person who was actually interested in hiring you into their group, your future SPE.  That interview was more along the lines of your SPE feeling you out to see how much you know about the area of the art you're wanting to get hired into.  They'll let you know a bit more what to expect from the job.  Overall, both interviews should be the easiest you've ever had unless you've never interviewed before.  They really need people, so unless you come off like a total idiot or give the impression you won't last long, you should have no problem getting hired.  You'll also get the talk about pay, promotions, ect. from either one or both the people you interview with.

If you manage it get an interview, don't sweat it, the hard part is over.  Usually if you go to one of the job fairs they have, you have a better chance of getting hired than if you just submit your resume randomly.

.

[New examiner]

After you get hired, you'll go through 3 weeks of training, to learn some of the basic stuff.  After that, you'll get your first real case.  Most people take about 2 weeks with their first case and still will have to redo the first 5 or so cases as a second action non-final 3-6 months later.  That's ok though.  The more cases you see and do, the easier it'll get and the more you'll learn, artwise and procedure-wise.  You'll learn what to do in your writing,  the best way to write rejections, the best ways to search, and the best way to allocate your time.  The important thing is to not worry so much about perfecting every case that by the end of 6 months you're still only doing 2 cases every bi-week.  

After you're there a while your typical week should be something along the lines of you start out the week looking over a case.  You make sure all the paperworks are ok, then you check priority data to find out the priority date for the application you're working on is.  Check the inventor, assignee, and note any other pending cases the inventor might have you might need to check for double patenting.  Then, you review the claims quickly so you can see what to notice in the specification.  Then, you review the abstract and specification.  Note any errors you see in the claims and disclosure.  This should take you about half a day depending on how familiar you are with the subject matter.  Then you write the objections and easy rejections like 112 issues.  This might take you about 2 hours, unless it's really messed up.  Then review any information they've disclosed in their information disclosure statement.  You don't have to do a thorough job with this, just quickly consider what they've submitted.  Sometimes, they'll screw up and give you the art you'll need for a rejection and you'll want to take a closer look at the art later.  Then you review the claims a bit more to determine what the claims are saying.  Try not to get colored by what is disclosed in the spec though as this will narrow your interpretation too much and make searching harder.  I still find myself doing that sometimes.  Review the claims and note key words you might search for or subject matter you might look into.  From those key words, look into what classes and subclasses you might search.  Think a bit more about seach strategies.  At this point, it might be the end of day 1 in the week.  Next day, review your search strategy a bit and start searching or get help from someone a bit for suggestions on strategies if you're totally lost.  DO NOT GO TO ANOTHER EXAMINER FOR HELP IF YOU DID NOT READ TO KNOW WHAT THE INVENTION IS ABOUT.  Searches might take about half a day.  This is the important thing, don't spend too much time at this point reading art you've found.  Note them to review later.  After half a day, you'll spend the other half reviewing the art you've found to decide which are good for rejecting which claims.  Pick the best ones out of the batch you've got and plan a rejection strategy.  The next half day might be spent writing the rest of the rejections.  You'll also need to worry about 101 issues after you've read the spec and review the claims again, so don't forget to make 101 rejections in the first office action also.  After you've finished your rejections, it's just a matter of paperwork that need to be completed to get the rejecton or allowance mailed.  For one application, that was about two and a half day's worth of work.  Then the process repeats for the next application.  Sometimes you'll be able to go faster, sometimes slower.  After about 3-6 months, you'll also start to get back responses to your old actions.  You'll also have to do responses to those before they get too old.  Once you're more experienced, I hear they take about two hours to do.  Not only do you have to worry about getting your responses out on time, you also have to worry about getting in all your counts for the bi-week.  They'll explain how the count system works in training, but basically, the higher you are in grade, the more work you need to get done each bi-week, so you'll have to learn how to be more efficient.  That's my typical work experience so far, but I've only been at the PTO 6 months.  Hopefully, I'll get more experienced soon and will be able to go faster.

Oh, there's also the occasional interviews, preparing for interviews, and getting cases dumped on you at the last moment because some examiner quit and their cases are over due or they're behind and your SPE needs you to bail them out so the group doesn't look bad

[pto wannabe]

is there a silicon valley office of the pto?  or is everything in dc?

[Richard Liu]

USPTO is only in DC. There was a USPTO library in Sunnyvale, now they merged everything in Sunnyvale City Lib.

[niczon]

The Patent Office Professional Organization's website offers an insider's view on Examiner work issues.

The website claims that  "POPA represents more than 3,900 employees, the vast majority of whom are patent examiners", in a quote from 2003. I don't know if their viewpoints are commonplace in the examining corps, however.

http://www.popa.org/

POPA is a double edged sword. They do as much good as bad sometimes. Sometimes they're fantastic. Sometime... well.. lets just say they actually defended an examiner that was fired for trying to deck his supervisor. On the other hand they fight a good fight for examining hour flexibility.

Most long-time examiners and primaries don't put much focus of reliance on pop, and instead rely on their ability and their relationship with their SPE to get what they want. Many actually look at you sideways when you mention popa.

As far as proteciton in the PTO.... Nothing beats having a good SPE... and nothing beats you down like a bad one.

[niczon]

They really need people, so unless you come off like a total idiot or give the impression you won't last long, you should have no problem getting hired.  

.

There is a reason for this, and its not just pay. When you interview, be sure to keep your eyes open, look around and talk to people. Not all TCs and Art Units are the same. I've known art units with turnover at 0% over 3 years, and some with 50% each year. Some are social and others are introverted. Some people are not cut out to be cogs in the government machine, others love the privacy, freedom, and reliability of the job.

An interview is a two way process, and if the environment is not for you, make a note to yourself.

[Jonathan]

POPA is a double edged sword. They do as much good as bad sometimes. Sometimes they're fantastic. Sometime... well.. lets just say they actually defended an examiner that was fired for trying to deck his supervisor. On the other hand they fight a good fight for examining hour flexibility.

Most long-time examiners and primaries don't put much focus of reliance on pop, and instead rely on their ability and their relationship with their SPE to get what they want. Many actually look at you sideways when you mention popa.

As far as proteciton in the PTO.... Nothing beats having a good SPE... and nothing beats you down like a bad one.

Yep, sounds like most unions (POPA sounds like a union, don't know if it technically is as it seems membership is not a requirement). Their purpose is noble but sometimes that purpose probably gets clouded.

Reminds me of a time when I had an intern job in college at a computer chip factory. I was doing some tests on semiconductor manufacturing equipment and needed to switch out some gas lines. Since this was "union job" (doing anything to a machine), I had to wait an hour for the designated union person to do a 2 minute task with a wrench.

[Guest]

Excellent posts New Examiner!!  There's a lot of great information there.

Some follow up questions:

What TC are you?  What are the average qualifications for the new examiners in your TC (education, work experience, and maybe even the total occupational score from JARS (where you put a number by the subjects you have experience in))?

How many counts do examiners need per bi-week at each GS level? (I'm guessing that you get 1 count for the first office action, and then another count for the final action, even if they are both the same action.)

Also, what was the basic timeframe for the interview process? In other words, how long after you applied did you get your first interview?  How long between interviews?  How long did it take to get your job offer?  How long after the offer before you began the training class?  Did they fly you to DC for the second interview? Or were they both phone interviews?

[Guest]

Yes New Examiner, thanks!

I did the JARS thing this last week and sent in my resume and transcripts. I called and talked with the office and they said that they do phone interviews but it REALLY helps if you can come out to D.C. (i live on the left coast). This was before i had sent in my stuff or filled out the JARS info, so i wasn't really ready to book a flight yet - don't know if they will pay for that.

My JARS put me GS-11, which surprised me because while i do have a grad degree it isn't in my area of expertise. I do have 10 years of experience with lots of other extras, so that must enter into the equation.

[melwrc]

"Then review any information they've disclosed in their information disclosure statement.  You don't have to do a thorough job with this, just quickly consider what they've submitted.  Sometimes, they'll screw up and give you the art you'll need for a rejection and you'll want to take a closer look at the art later."

New examiner,
Disclosing relevant prior art in IDS's is a requirement if any are known by the applicant, the atty/agent, or anyone else involved in the prosecution of the application ("duty of candor," and "inequitable conduct" should you be found to have failed that duty renders the patent and any child patents unenforceable).  It's not a screw up unless the atty/agent was inept and actually drafted claims that they won't be able to convince an examiner to allow.  Sometimes a new reference comes to light after submitting the app, such as when a publication of an application by a competitor happens.  Then, the agent/atty still has to submit it, but knows that some amendments will be needed.

After the filing date, if I submit an IDS that I know screws my current claim set, I'll submit a preliminary amendment before the first OA, or if the app is involved in the prosecution already, I'll draft the amendments and wait for the examiner's rejections in the next OA (sometimes the examiner gives the surprise allowance).

Good luck with the examiner job.  I try to be nice to the examiners because many are placed under a load of stress and have to deal with big headed atty/agents berating them for not allowing their client's app.  Both sides of the prosecution game are under pressure, so we've all got to get along.  We also have to deal with each other more than once because each art unit is fairly small, so a big client filing multiple apps in the same area can result in having the same examiner for later apps.

[New examiner]

Everything melwrc pointed out is very true, the applicant has a duty to disclose relevant prior art.  The type of screw up I had in mind though was more along the lines of the agent/attorney submitted something they didn't think read right on a set of claims when in fact it did or maybe they hoped the examiner wouldn't notice.  I had a case the other day where that happened and the attorney didn't realize it till we had our interview.  I explained why I rejected the entire set of claims using something the first attorney who first worked on the case submitted (102b rejections) and he agreed that my agruments were valid.  I guess the guy who originally drafted the claims wasn't very familiar with the art.  Lucky for the second attorney I'm allowing him to do a supplimental amendment after our interview instead of just doing a final action since he didn't make any changes to the first set of claims in response to my first office action--he had the case dumped on him at the last moment I guess, which I can sympathize with since it's happened to me a few times already.

I've only had 4 interviews so far and so far the attornies were really nice.  There's rude people on both sides of the game and hopefully I won't have to deal with any for a long time.  The thing I try to keep in mind is that we're just doing our jobs and sometimes our jobs conflict.  No need to take it out on the opposing side though.

[New examiner]

As to the other questions:

I'm in TC 2100.  There really isn't any "average qualification" for new examiners in my workgroup that I've seen.  For instance, take the group I went through training with.  Two were towards the later parts of their career--one guy told me he's just wanting a job he can be secure in for a few more years till retirement.  Most just had a bachelors.  I was probably the only one with a masters.  Some had worked for a few years already.  Some just graduated college or maybe had at most two years of experience at most before getting hired at the PTO.  

I wouldn't go too much by the JARS score thing unless you've had what most people would consider actual full time job experience and many years of it.  10 years of experience would get you placed at the GS11 level.  I myself scored as a GS-11 based on what I put in, but got offered to be hired on either as a GS9 step 1 based on me having a masters or GS7, max step based on just by a bachelors and my grades, ignoring my masters degree.  I had a lot of experience since I worked a lot of part time jobs, had my own IT business for a while, and co-oped while in school, which was why I scored high on the JARS test, but I was considered a new graduate, so didn't get offered anything more than GS9.  I chose to go with GS9 and actually lower pay since it's at a lower step as it would allow me to move up in the ranks faster in the long run.  Others choose to take a lower grade level than they can start out in as it allows them more room to learn the job before they're expected to contribute as many counts per bi-week.

For the interview process, like I said before, if you do the job fair thing, the turn around time is fast.  I called in the beginning of the week to set up the interview at the job fair, had the interview the same week.  My office mate mailed in his resume and they got back to him about 9 months after he had already gotten hired on via going through the job fair.  After the first interview, the second interview was about two weeks after that.  My second interview was over the phone--most people I talked to had their second one over the phone also.  My first one I drove over 8 hours to do the interview on site.  They didn't fly me.  They also don't offer relocation reimbursment any more.  I pretty much got a job offer right after the second interview, but they wouldn't actually say it and make it official till a few weeks afterwards--HR and their slow paperwork.  After you got your offer, you're given a list of dates you can choose to start your training and your job.  Could be anywhere from as soon as two weeks to up to 6 months.  In my opinion, it really does help if you go interview on site as it shows them you're more interested in getting hired.  I was a wreak at my first interview since I had only gotten about two hours of sleep the night before driving up to do the interview--insomnia, but I guess the guy I interviewed with saw I was really interested in being hired as I was willing to drive such a long distance just for a 20 minutes interview.  They won't pay for you to come out here.


I'll go into some of the basics of the count system now:
The way the count system works is you get your first count for your first action.  Then you get your second count when the application either gets approved or abandoned or they do an RCE.  So after you do a final, you don't get your second count.  Any other action you do after your first action, you don't get a count for, not even your final one.  

How many counts you're expected to do each biweek depends on the art unit you're in and your grade level.  Each art unit has a different expectancy level.  The higher you are in grade though, the more counts you're expected to do.  In my unit for example, a GS7 does around 3.7 or 4, I can't remember which.  A GS9 does 4.25 and GS11 does maybe 4.75 each bi-week.  

Time for bed now.  Sorry if any of what I wrote is garbled.  I'm sleepy and don't have time to double check my writing.