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[Vanilla Ice]

Welcome to the Government. It's not that it doesn't make sense, it makes sense to the some people that work there. Too many cooks in the kitchen is my theroy as to why the Gov does what it does. I have heard that the USPTO is a strange place to work from another patent attorney whose father worked for the USPTO decades ago. I would guess the budget is what is driving hiring, and new policies/procedures had to be put in place due to the AIA.

[klaviernista]

Eh, I don't understand the point of this. They just closed the previous GS-11 Bio. app. a week ago, now they've opened the identical position up? I just tried calling but it's past 5 on the East Coast. I have a hard time believing that they had so few applicants the last time through, plus the joint GS-9/GS-11 app. that's still open right now. Anyone with something other than a guess able to shed any light on this?

Three comments:

1.  Due to large turnover, the USPTO often engages in "rolling" or "continuous" hiring.

2.  OPM imposes limits on how long a federal agency can post a particular job listing.  If the opening is still available at the expiration of the listing, the initial listing will lapse and the PTO will often relist the position.

3.   The USPTO hiring process is budget driven.  While the USPTO is a profit center for the government, it does not (at least not yet) reap what it sews.  Like most other agencies, a budget appropriation must be made for the PTO to hire.  With this in mind, the government has been operating on a so called continuing resolution (i.e., a temporary budget) for quite a long time.  It is hard to hire someone when you do not know whether you a new budget will include the money needed to pay the hiree.  So in the meantime, you list the opening, take resumes and conduct interviews, and wait to hire until your fiscal future is more certain.

[blaze1306]

Well I'm ready to work now and I have applied to everything I even remotly qualify for so lets get on the stick

[Gatorbull84]

Blaze iam right there with you. I have applied to every patent examiner position that I remotely qualify for. I am currently a 1st year law student and I intended to transfer to a part-time program in DC, but my app has said referred to the selection committee for a long-time now.

[slapsgiving]

Thank you for the responses, I guess it was just wishful thinking that the USPTO would provide some guidance on some of these issues under discussion. I understand the financial portions, I'd just like HR to be more on top of their game and forthcoming.

I'd be interested to hear from the other biological sciences folks when they hear anything substantial, I'll do the same.

[blaze1306]

Blaze iam right there with you. I have applied to every patent examiner position that I remotely qualify for. I am currently a 1st year law student and I intended to transfer to a part-time program in DC, but my app has said referred to the selection committee for a long-time now.

At least your staus changed all mine says is reviewing.

Ok now i'm pissed. I got denied a Bio grade 11 because " lacked specialized experience for grade level"
I have 2 years research in immunoassays, last year of law school specializing in patent law.
I will call and complain tomorrow.

[klaviernista]

At least your staus changed all mine says is reviewing.

Ok now i'm pissed. I got denied a Bio grade 11 because " lacked specialized experience for grade level"
I have 2 years research in immunoassays, last year of law school specializing in patent law.
I will call and complain tomorrow.

Law school doesn't matter for grade determination.  They are looking for specialized experience, i.e., experience examining patent applications.

If you have an advanced technical degree (i.e., PhD), then a GS-11 slot is a possibility.  If you have a BS/MS, your 2 years of research won't get you anywhere.

Sorry to be negative, but I am trying to give you a realistic outlook. 

[hua052011]

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[blaze1306]

At least your staus changed all mine says is reviewing.

Ok now i'm pissed. I got denied a Bio grade 11 because " lacked specialized experience for grade level"
I have 2 years research in immunoassays, last year of law school specializing in patent law.
I will call and complain tomorrow.

Law school doesn't matter for grade determination.  They are looking for specialized experience, i.e., experience examining patent applications.

If you have an advanced technical degree (i.e., PhD), then a GS-11 slot is a possibility.  If you have a BS/MS, your 2 years of research won't get you anywhere.

Sorry to be negative, but I am trying to give you a realistic outlook. 

I see your reasoning but if they want experience examining patents I have 2 years of that and it seems to be getting me nowhere.
I have also begun taking classes for my LLM. At my school we can take up to 9 in the LLM IP dicipline.

Seems like no matter what I do the PTO finds a way to screw me...I guess i pin my hopes on grade 9 now.

[klaviernista]

I see your reasoning but if they want experience examining patents I have 2 years of that and it seems to be getting me nowhere.
I have also begun taking classes for my LLM. At my school we can take up to 9 in the LLM IP dicipline.

Seems like no matter what I do the PTO finds a way to screw me...I guess i pin my hopes on grade 9 now.

Were you previously an examiner at the PTO?  Or is your "examining experience" derived from activities outside the PTO (law school classes, law firm work, etc.?) 

I understand why you might want to start at grade 11, but you may very well be better off starting at grade 9.  Your biweekly quota will be less as a 9 then as an 11, which will give you more time to come up to speed with your art.  If salary is the driving consideration, you might want to compare the GS-9 step 10 salary against GS-11 step 1.  You might be surprised at the overlap (and you might be able to negotiate a GS9-10 starting point).

Finally, since you have a bio background you should understand that the PTO is really looking for folks with an advanced degree.  If you don't have that, your chances of landing a job at the PTO (in the bio area) are not terribly good.

Again, I'm not trying to be negative.  Just realistic.

[slapsgiving]

klaviernista, there appear to be a range of numbers floating around this thread over the past year. The most common I see lists the GS-9 positions starting at step 8 and the GS-11 positions starting at between 4 and 6. Many say that an accelerated promotion at 6 months is possible, bringing the examiner up to GS-11.

Additionally, the general consensus seems to be that it is advantageous to accept the GS-9 position even with the advanced scientific degree, absent significant patent work, due to the differences in production quotas between the two grades.

Thoughts? Any worrisome drawbacks to accepting the GS-9 over the GS-11, aside from being behind by 6 months.

[blaze1306]

I see your reasoning but if they want experience examining patents I have 2 years of that and it seems to be getting me nowhere.
I have also begun taking classes for my LLM. At my school we can take up to 9 in the LLM IP dicipline.

Seems like no matter what I do the PTO finds a way to screw me...I guess i pin my hopes on grade 9 now.

Were you previously an examiner at the PTO?  Or is your "examining experience" derived from activities outside the PTO (law school classes, law firm work, etc.?) 

I understand why you might want to start at grade 11, but you may very well be better off starting at grade 9.  Your biweekly quota will be less as a 9 then as an 11, which will give you more time to come up to speed with your art.  If salary is the driving consideration, you might want to compare the GS-9 step 10 salary against GS-11 step 1.  You might be surprised at the overlap (and you might be able to negotiate a GS9-10 starting point).

Finally, since you have a bio background you should understand that the PTO is really looking for folks with an advanced degree.  If you don't have that, your chances of landing a job at the PTO (in the bio area) are not terribly good.

Again, I'm not trying to be negative.  Just realistic.

My experience is from law school classes, and volunteer experience of over a year doing patent prosecution, not to mention 2 years wet lab work. Salary is not much of a motivating factor I just want to work.

I am seeing the problem the PTO seems to have with those of us that dont have an advanced degree but good experience...damn just give me the chance. I would take grade 7 if they would offer it to me just to prove myself.

[ward00]

FYI - complaining will not get you any brownie points with the reviewers that screen apps in your tech area and as well may get you a 1 way ticket guantanamo (ok just joking on the last part).  It is almost certain that you have been rejected because there are a boatload of unemployed patent agents and JDs with a boatload of experience in line ahead of you.

[klaviernista]

My experience is from law school classes, and volunteer experience of over a year doing patent prosecution, not to mention 2 years wet lab work. Salary is not much of a motivating factor I just want to work.

I am seeing the problem the PTO seems to have with those of us that dont have an advanced degree but good experience...damn just give me the chance. I would take grade 7 if they would offer it to me just to prove myself.

Did you apply for a grade 7 or a grade 11?  The application asks you to specify which grade (I believe) and some of the listings are grade specific.  You may shooting too high, based on a reasonable (though ultimately fruitless) expectation that the PTO will care about legal education and examination "related" experience.  The fact that you don't have an advanced degree and are seeking a bio position is really unfortunate.  There is a long standing expectation that examiners and practitioners in the life sciences need to have an advanced degree.  It might not be a correct expectation, but it is the expectation nonetheless.

I would reapply and seek a GS 7 position.  Getting in at the ground level may be more important than you think, particularly because the job is not easy for many people.

[klaviernista]

klaviernista, there appear to be a range of numbers floating around this thread over the past year. The most common I see lists the GS-9 positions starting at step 8 and the GS-11 positions starting at between 4 and 6. Many say that an accelerated promotion at 6 months is possible, bringing the examiner up to GS-11.

Additionally, the general consensus seems to be that it is advantageous to accept the GS-9 position even with the advanced scientific degree, absent significant patent work, due to the differences in production quotas between the two grades.

Thoughts? Any worrisome drawbacks to accepting the GS-9 over the GS-11, aside from being behind by 6 months.

In my opinion, it is far better to come in at GS 7 or 9 than at an 11 if you have never been an examiner.  The difference is a bit like stepping on a treadmill at speed 4 vs. speed 7 or 8.  At 4, you will have to jump on and start running fairly quickly, but chances are you will be able ot keep up.  At 7 or 8, you might try to jump on and fall off before you even hit your stride.  Learning the PTO systems and how to be an efficient examiner take time.  More importantly, establishing the amended docket that will sustain you at higher production levels takes (a lot) of time. 

The negatives associated with coming in at GS 7 or 9 (as opposed to 11) generally relate to salary and when you will become eligble to do certain things, like take the certification of legal competency exam, participate in the work at home program, etc.  But the delay is only 6-18 months, depending on what level you come in at.

To close, I am certainly not an old foagie, but I have been around the block a few times.  I have also had the good fortune to work as a patent examiner, a patent attorney in a large firm, as in house counsel, and as a patent attorney in a small firm.  Don't be so eager to rush into things and "advance."  Better to develop a good set of skills slowly, than to rush into things and find yourself in over your head.  Not to mention that taking things slow will allow you to stop and smell the roses every now and then.  It is pretty easy to lose yourself in this business.