Working for the USPTO

[somedude]

A supervisor can make or break your experience at the PTO, and good supervisors that let you allow applications are a rarity.  Supervisor quality is a factor at any job, but at the PTO it's absolutely critical since production depends heavily on your supervisor's approval.  I think that's why many examiners are still leaving the office, in spite of the horrible economy.

[stuffball]

Hey Dawg,

That's a really interesting point and I hadn't thought of before.  It's true that the only time I've been represented by a union was at the patent office.  Obviously, there's no such thing in the legal profession and nobody even considered that when I worked as a scientist.

I did feel at the PTO like I was treated as unskilled labor.  It does seem likely that the existence of a union and the use of collective bargaining on behalf of the examining corps may leave management with the impression that examiners act like, and should therefore be treated like, unskilled laborers.

I will admit that the concept of a union seems inherently unprofessional.  Professionals supposedly provide unique (or, at least, relatively rare), highly-valued services that require extensive education and training.  The notion of collective bargaining, on the other hand, seems almost to imply that employees taking advantage of it are interchangeable.  In other words, you wouldn't need to resort to safety in numbers if everyone were highly valuable individually... as professionals are supposed to be.

Good point.


stuffy.

[horsechute]

I agree, that was a good point.

If I could add a point of my own, I never paid much attention to POPA, but the idea that it was an effective "union" always seemed like a joke to me. Someone who actually belonged to a "real" union in Michigan prior to becoming an examiner once told a friend of mine that he thought it was fundamentally a worthless organization, since there is no legal right to strike (the examiners actually do strike sometimes at the EPO, however. You can even see pictures of them doing this if you Google something like "patent examiners strike EPO" and then click on images).

I am a little fuzzy on this, but I believe the SPE's have a "union" called SPECO (or something like that). Of course, there is probably no collective bargaining, so technically it is not a "union", but I consider groups like the AMA unions, since their principle concern, in my view, is to guarantee that their members make lots of money, but doing this like limiting the competition (ie, the number of people who can get into medical school).

One other point. If a SPE wants to get rid of someone, Union or Government rules may make it a bit harder, but what they will do, even if it is a Primary (they have the right to do this, believe me) is require that all cases be signed by them (the SPE), and then require the examiner to produce perfect art, till they cannot get any counts, and are fired. I have seen this happen to a number of people, even Primaries who are nearing retirement, and it is really pretty sad

[stuffball]

I never really paid attention to POPA either.  Occasionally, I'd read their news letters.  They were embarrassing.  Like they were written by 5th graders.

That sucks about firing people in such a chicken-shit way.  PTO is filled with little tin-horned dictators ruining other peoples' lives for their own amusement.  That should be #4 on my list of things I didn't like about the place.  That said, the real-world is filled with the same kinds of people pulling the same kind of bullshit.

[usptosweatshop]

I agree, that was a good point.

If I could add a point of my own, I never paid much attention to POPA, but the idea that it was an effective "union" always seemed like a joke to me. Someone who actually belonged to a "real" union in Michigan prior to becoming an examiner once told a friend of mine that he thought it was fundamentally a worthless organization, since there is no legal right to strike (the examiners actually do strike sometimes at the EPO, however. You can even see pictures of them doing this if you Google something like "patent examiners strike EPO" and then click on images).

I am a little fuzzy on this, but I believe the SPE's have a "union" called SPECO (or something like that). Of course, there is probably no collective bargaining, so technically it is not a "union", but I consider groups like the AMA unions, since their principle concern, in my view, is to guarantee that their members make lots of money, but doing this like limiting the competition (ie, the number of people who can get into medical school).

One other point. If a SPE wants to get rid of someone, Union or Government rules may make it a bit harder, but what they will do, even if it is a Primary (they have the right to do this, believe me) is require that all cases be signed by them (the SPE), and then require the examiner to produce perfect art, till they cannot get any counts, and are fired. I have seen this happen to a number of people, even Primaries who are nearing retirement, and it is really pretty sad

Dont I know it. Hopefully they did me a favor. The so called management in the PTO could never make it in the private sector. Thats why they stay with the feds. Just look at the mess they have created at the current PTO. See growing backlog/pendency, attrition rates and the decline in issue/maintenance fees. Brilliant.

[horsechute]

"Just look at the mess they have created at the current PTO. See growing backlog/pendency, attrition rates and the decline in issue/maintenance fees. Brilliant."

You forgot to mention that their half-assed attempt to pass their rules package (ie, Tafas v. Dudas).

[bertmarshall]

Hi everyone,

I am a PhD student in electrical engineering at a Big 10 school.  My research is geared towards biomedical applications.  I am within a year of graduation and I have been thinking about becoming a patent lawyer.  I have done some research about what is required and I have attended talks about engineers becoming patent lawyers.  My understanding thus far has been that it is easier to land a position at the patent office (USPTO). 

One of the questions I had about the USPTO is how their pay scales work (http://www.opm.gov/oca/08tables/indexGS.asp).  What GS level and step would I start at with a PhD in electrical engineering?   What type of qualifications determine what GS level one starts out at?  How long does one typically have to work to move from on GS/step to another?  I know the DC area is expensive, so this is important to know.

Also, what type of education benefits does the USPTO have?  Do they pay for law school?

I know there are posts in this forum that touch on these issues, but they were posted back in 2005.  So I am hoping to get more updated information.

Thanks for your help!

[mk1023]

PTO income is down, so hiring has ground to a halt. They'll only hire you now if you've worked here before or are a patent attorney. After that, see this tidbit from a PTO press release:
"Initiate a targeted hiring surge and hire 1,000 patent examiners annually during FY 2011 and FY 2012. This effort will target former patent examiners and IP professionals who will require minimal training and can be productive virtually from the start of their employment."
This doesn't say no IP newbies, but it doesn't look promising either.

If you could get hired, you would start at GS9/8. In the past: GS5=newbie with bad GPA, GS7 newbie with 3.0+ GPA and little/no work experience, GS9 Masters/JD, professional work experience, GS11 bio/chem PhD. I don't think they hire PhDs at GS11 much any more.

No education benefits any more. It does not seem likely that they'll return any time soon. We're broke.

[rwln]

Im thinking about working at the PTO. However I have some concerns.

If they chase off an examiner near retirement i imagine the new hires have it even worse.

If its such a good job why do 1/3 leave the first 3 years and 7/10 leave after 5 years? With the bad economy why is the attrition so high?

[bertmarshall]

Thanks mk1020.  I have a couple of follow up questions. 

I thought all PhD's started at GS 11.  Or only PhDs in chem/bio?  Either way, it looks like the starting salary will be $60k.  A PhD in electrical engineering generally commands ~$90-100k.  What is the advantage of giving up such a salary to work at USPTO (besides wanting do patent law)?

How fast does one move up the different grades?  What is that promotion based on?

[mk1023]

Thanks mk1020.  I have a couple of follow up questions. 

I thought all PhD's started at GS 11.  Or only PhDs in chem/bio?  Either way, it looks like the starting salary will be $60k.  A PhD in electrical engineering generally commands ~$90-100k.  What is the advantage of giving up such a salary to work at USPTO (besides wanting do patent law)?

How fast does one move up the different grades?  What is that promotion based on?

1. In the past PhDs have started at GS11 (has nothing to do with chem/bio because I don't think we hire too many electrical PhDs), but I think the PTO has gone away from that the last few years. Chem/bio AUs get lower than average hours to do cases, so starting at a higher GS means a newbie has to do a heck of a lot of cases early on. 
2. Starting salary would be more like $75k since you start at grade 9 step 8. In the past new examiners were also hired with a recruitment incentive (8650 for EE when hired at grade 9). There's also OT available (although not to be counted on given the uspto's financial problems). My first year at the PTO I made 90k w/ overtime and recruitment bonus. The advantages of the job are: 1) stable gov't job w/ good benefits, 2) can advance quickly, 3) flexible work schedule, 4) you work independently, 5) possibility to work at home. Of course there are numerous potential disadvantages but I don't want to get into that (read this thread for more info)
3. You can get promoted every year. Promotion is based on having high enough production.

[ptonewb]

Thanks mk1020.  I have a couple of follow up questions. 

I thought all PhD's started at GS 11.  Or only PhDs in chem/bio?  Either way, it looks like the starting salary will be $60k.  A PhD in electrical engineering generally commands ~$90-100k.  What is the advantage of giving up such a salary to work at USPTO (besides wanting do patent law)?

How fast does one move up the different grades?  What is that promotion based on?

2. Starting salary would be more like $75k since you start at grade 9 step 8. In the past new examiners were also hired with a recruitment incentive (8650 for EE when hired at grade 9). There's also OT available (although not to be counted on given the uspto's financial problems). My first year at the PTO I made 90k w/ overtime and recruitment bonus. The advantages of the job are: 1) stable gov't job w/ good benefits, 2) can advance quickly, 3) flexible work schedule, 4) you work independently, 5) possibility to work at home. Of course there are numerous potential disadvantages but I don't want to get into that (read this thread for more info)

Speaking of the recruitment incentive, coming from Aug. 18th/08 class, I was in hopes to see an installment come in this weekend but nothing so far. Now I'm wondering if their will be something in writing this week saying their cut. The only other possibility I can think of is I was not fully successful for the blizzard bi-week. I was fully successful last review and for the past 2 quarters, not sure what fully successful actually means when it comes to the bonus

[bertmarshall]

Thanks again mk1023.  One last question....sorry to keep bothering you.

You said the salary was about ~$75k.  But according to this website (http://www.opm.gov/oca/08tables/gscalcul.asp), GS9/8 only makes $59k.  I am probably misunderstanding something, but thought I would ask.

[mk1023]

Speaking of the recruitment incentive, coming from Aug. 18th/08 class, I was in hopes to see an installment come in this weekend but nothing so far. Now I'm wondering if their will be something in writing this week saying their cut. The only other possibility I can think of is I was not fully successful for the blizzard bi-week. I was fully successful last review and for the past 2 quarters, not sure what fully successful actually means when it comes to the bonus

If it was going to be cut it would have been cut at the beginning of the FY. My SPE forwarded me this email, so I think it's safe to assume that HR is once again operating efficiently (not!).
From: [redacted]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 1:46 PM
To: Patent Examining Mgrs 2600
Cc: [redacted]
Subject: Regarding the Recruitment Incentive
Importance: High

SPEs - examiners have been contacting HR about their recruitment bonuses, and this is only slowing the department who processes the bonuses.  Please have them directly contact [SPE#1], [SPE#2], or [sender of email] instead of contacting HR.  We will get back to the employee re the status of their bonus.       

[mk1023]

Thanks again mk1023.  One last question....sorry to keep bothering you.

You said the salary was about ~$75k.  But according to this website (http://www.opm.gov/oca/08tables/gscalcul.asp), GS9/8 only makes $59k.  I am probably misunderstanding something, but thought I would ask.

USPTO has a special pay rate (salary table 0576).
Here's the current table: http://apps.opm.gov/SpecialRates/package/table057601012010.html

All of this doesn't really matter in your situation unless the economy really picks up and we start hiring people with no IP experience.