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Examinerguy
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« Reply #3120 on: 10-21-09 at 06:13 pm » |
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And they work more hours, go to school for 3 years, take a day long test for a license to practice law and are under serious ethical and moral obligations to their clients, themselves, and the courts. A lawyer who fucks up, at worst, can get sued and be disbarred. When an examiner fucks up...what's the worst that'll happen?
Yea, I figure the salary difference is warranted.
1. Work more hours: depends. On average definitely. Not sure how to compare the stress per hour though. 2. Go to school for 3 more years: Which is why I said examiners take the next step to become attorneys. 3. Examiners who have allowance errors (especially if the error is in the public eye) can get fired (and do). And guess what...they can't go anywhere because their engineering degrees are worthless. There is only 1 patent office, however, there are a bunch of firms who hire agents and attorneys. The best an examiner can hope for who gets fired is to get hired as a first year agent, probably taking a huge pay cut. I'm not saying pay examiners what attorneys make. But if I work at the patent office for 30 years, I would expect to make more than 150K (in today's dollars). My mother retired as a high school teacher a few years back and was making 105K in a VERY inexpensive area. From a cost of living perspective she probably makes more than a GS-15 at the patent office in DC. |
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« Last Edit: 10-21-09 at 06:16 pm by Examinerguy »
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LivingItUp
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« Reply #3121 on: 10-21-09 at 06:53 pm » |
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I thought the USPTO was part of the Department of Commerce? I find it hard to believe that the DoC gets 0% of the tax dollars unless they're just not passing funds in that form to the PTO.
Believe it; the PTO is completely fee funded. In fact, for many years Congress drained money from the PTO. Well, the PTO has long term pension liabilities with PTO employees (CSRS and FERS). These pension liabilities might become underfunded, and the tax payer is obligated to fund them. That means tax money can find its way into the pockets of PTO employees. I find it hard to say that the "PTO is fully funded by user fees" -- if those fees are not enough to cover the cost of their expenses. See here ... http://www.fedsmith.com/article/999/nearing-retirement-you-probably-have-reason-be.htmlAs one Congressman noted: "[E]ven the Federal Government’s own defined benefit pension plan – the Civil Service Retirement System – is underfunded. As of the end of 2002, total assets attributable to CSRS amounted to $417 billion, but the liabilities for future benefits amounted to $950 billion, resulting in an unfunded liability for CSRS of $533 billion. As a result of this under funding, the assets attributable to CSRS are expected to be depleted by the year 2023. In contrast, the Federal Employees Retirement System (FERS), which covers employees hired since the beginning of 1984, is fully funded by the employees and agencies." |
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lhfan
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« Reply #3122 on: 10-21-09 at 06:57 pm » |
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And they work more hours, go to school for 3 years, take a day long test for a license to practice law and are under serious ethical and moral obligations to their clients, themselves, and the courts. A lawyer who fucks up, at worst, can get sued and be disbarred. When an examiner fucks up...what's the worst that'll happen?
Yea, I figure the salary difference is warranted.
1. Work more hours: depends. On average definitely. Not sure how to compare the stress per hour though. 2. Go to school for 3 more years: Which is why I said examiners take the next step to become attorneys. 3. Examiners who have allowance errors (especially if the error is in the public eye) can get fired (and do). And guess what...they can't go anywhere because their engineering degrees are worthless. There is only 1 patent office, however, there are a bunch of firms who hire agents and attorneys. The best an examiner can hope for who gets fired is to get hired as a first year agent, probably taking a huge pay cut. I'm not saying pay examiners what attorneys make. But if I work at the patent office for 30 years, I would expect to make more than 150K (in today's dollars). My mother retired as a high school teacher a few years back and was making 105K in a VERY inexpensive area. From a cost of living perspective she probably makes more than a GS-15 at the patent office in DC. 1. It seems like the primaries who know how to work the system probably work 30 hour work weeks while somehow maxing overtime and getting all the bonuses. 3. This probably does happen but not often to really be something to worry about. |
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horsechute
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« Reply #3123 on: 10-21-09 at 08:05 pm » |
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"It seems like the primaries who know how to work the system probably work 30 hour work weeks while somehow maxing overtime and getting all the bonuses."
It happens more than you would think. I know one examiner who keeps a seperate computer next to his "PTO" computer just so he can play blackjack during the time when he is doing his "overtime."
I also remember someone who used to go shopping on the weekends when he was supposedly doing his OT, back in the day when there sign in/out sheets. Worked pretty well, till someone compared the times on the sheets between the one at the lobby and the one at his SPE's office.
I hate to say it, but when he was denied his reg number after he was fired, I think the office did the right thing. That was outright theft, if you ask me. Instead, he should have just sat in his office and played blackjack, like the other guy.
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mk1023
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« Reply #3124 on: 10-21-09 at 09:39 pm » |
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"It seems like the primaries who know how to work the system probably work 30 hour work weeks while somehow maxing overtime and getting all the bonuses."
It happens more than you would think. I know one examiner who keeps a seperate computer next to his "PTO" computer just so he can play blackjack during the time when he is doing his "overtime."
That doesn't make any sense. With the examiner laptop program he should be doing his overtime on his couch not at the PTO. You probably mean he's playing blackjack during his 80 hours. |
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Dwight Schrute
Newbie
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« Reply #3125 on: 10-22-09 at 01:04 am » |
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Just out of curiosity, how many lawyers have been disbarred/sued for their actions in patent prosecution?
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DogDayPM 9er9er9er
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« Reply #3126 on: 10-22-09 at 09:02 am » |
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And they work more hours, go to school for 3 years, take a day long test for a license to practice law and are under serious ethical and moral obligations to their clients, themselves, and the courts. 2 day long test, and make that 3 if you want to hit a couple of states at the same time. |
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Any and all disclaimers you may see on this forum used by members more experienced and/or smarter than I, are hereby incorporated by reference as if fully set forth herein.
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horsechute.
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« Reply #3127 on: 10-22-09 at 02:53 pm » |
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That doesn't make any sense. With the examiner laptop program he should be doing his overtime on his couch not at the PTO. You probably mean he's playing blackjack during his 80 hours.
It doesn't make sense because it is a lie. Even if you were screwing around at work, no one would bring an extra computer into the office to do so. |
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« Last Edit: 10-22-09 at 02:54 pm by horsechute. »
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horsechute.
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« Reply #3128 on: 10-22-09 at 02:54 pm » |
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I hate to say it, but when he was denied his reg number after he was fired, I think the office did the right thing. That was outright theft, if you ask me. Instead, he should have just sat in his office and played blackjack, like the other guy.
LOL. Here we go again. No amount of trolling here will get you the reg number back, horseshit. |
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horsechute
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« Reply #3129 on: 10-22-09 at 05:43 pm » |
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LOL. A "PTO computer" is a computer hooked to the PTO secure server. It's actual physical construction or physical location are irrelevant, and I am just going off what he told me. If memory serves me correctly, there was no laptop program when he told me he did this. And, I don't recall saying he logged 80 hours of OT like MK1023 said, either.
To be honest, I don't think I would want to play black jack, or whack a mole, or video foos-ball, or watch the playboy channel (if you can) on the same computer I was writing my office actions on. I would be afraid that a photo of the playmate of the month might accidentally get sent out along with my office action. Haven't heard of it happening yet, but I suppose that it will sooner or later. Might even get a bigger laugh from the Attorneys than the ones we are getting reading the latest rounds of Office Actions.
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« Last Edit: 10-22-09 at 05:45 pm by horsechute »
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Scotto
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« Reply #3130 on: 10-22-09 at 11:56 pm » |
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^ I got a chuckle just reading your post, hehe.
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…but hopefully you only get a month's supply of letterhead, etc. printed up at a time. Once they become wastepaper, there's only so many versions of paper airplanes even an engineer can come up with.
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JustAnotherExaminer
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« Reply #3131 on: 10-23-09 at 01:17 am » |
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The reason why attrition during non-recession times is so bad at the office is because of that attitude. The office should be trying to convenience the crap out of examiners so they don't see a repeat of the attrition seen for the better part of the last decade.
Training new examiners is the most costly thing for the patent office. What they need is a system that keeps examiners around for as long as possible, even at the cost of lowering production. The system should encourage the concept of lifers. There are very few examiners I speak with on a daily basis that want to work at the PTO for more than 5 years...management needs to create an environment to change that.
There are ways to provide more incentive to stay in a job without resorting to a system which discourages compact prosecution and antagonizes applicants. RCE churning needs to go. If salaries need to go up or production requirements need to go down, so be it. But the days of encouraging a hide-the-ball strategy of examination need to come to an end. Examiners can't force applicants to abandon. Now we're being penalized because applicants can't identify they don't have allowable subject matter. If your TRUE allowance rate (don't include RCEs) is less than some determinable percentage I don't have time to calculate, you're gonna get screwed, like me. RCE fees should double every continual round, thus providing a little motivation for applicant to get their stuff together or abandon. Any examiner who has done docket flow analysis knows exactly what the new program will do. First and foremost, it will make docket flow analysis and tweaking ridiculously difficult. Second, it will make docket flow analysis that more important and increase the likelihood of snowballing. Lastly, it means the "pipeline size/production %" ratio will increase. And we all know what happens when the "pipeline size/production %" ratio increases. |
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Isaac
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« Reply #3132 on: 10-23-09 at 10:55 am » |
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Examiners can't force applicants to abandon. Now we're being penalized because applicants can't identify they don't have allowable subject matter. If your TRUE allowance rate (don't include RCEs) is less than some determinable percentage I don't have time to calculate, you're gonna get screwed, like me. RCE fees should double every continual round, thus providing a little motivation for applicant to get their stuff together or abandon. Generally speaking, the average RCE is probably a little easier than the average new application. Further, the new rules put RCEs on the Special New docket with continuations and divisionals allowing the examiner to manage the RCEs with far more ease than happens now. If an RCE or applicant is difficult, it may be months before the examiner gets to that case. I don't think there are any workflow points associated with the Special New docket. At some point the office may take another look at RCEs on the special new docket because of patent term adjustment implications. But for now, I believe that it will be a bit easier to manage your docket that you express here. And if you have cases with *some* allowable subject matter, applicants will probably be more willing to take what they can get and file a continuation since an RCE won't get processed any faster... |
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Isaac
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JustAnotherExaminer
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« Reply #3133 on: 10-23-09 at 11:13 am » |
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Examiners can't force applicants to abandon. Now we're being penalized because applicants can't identify they don't have allowable subject matter. If your TRUE allowance rate (don't include RCEs) is less than some determinable percentage I don't have time to calculate, you're gonna get screwed, like me. RCE fees should double every continual round, thus providing a little motivation for applicant to get their stuff together or abandon. Further, the new rules put RCEs on the Special New docket with continuations and divisionals allowing the examiner to manage the RCEs with far more ease than happens now. If an RCE or applicant is difficult, it may be months before the examiner gets to that case. I don't think there are any workflow points associated with the Special New docket. I had not heard this. This is very good news. We'll have more control over the pipeline if this is true. Ignore everything I said above. |
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mk1023
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« Reply #3134 on: 10-23-09 at 02:08 pm » |
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LOL. A "PTO computer" is a computer hooked to the PTO secure server. It's actual physical construction or physical location are irrelevant, and I am just going off what he told me. If memory serves me correctly, there was no laptop program when he told me he did this. And, I don't recall saying he logged 80 hours of OT like MK1023 said, either.
To be honest, I don't think I would want to play black jack, or whack a mole, or video foos-ball, or watch the playboy channel (if you can) on the same computer I was writing my office actions on. I would be afraid that a photo of the playmate of the month might accidentally get sent out along with my office action. Haven't heard of it happening yet, but I suppose that it will sooner or later. Might even get a bigger laugh from the Attorneys than the ones we are getting reading the latest rounds of Office Actions.
What I meant by 80 hours was regular non-OT hours you're supposed to work during a bi-week. I don't really think you can do much of anything on the PTO computers besides work. They are so slow. |
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