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[popeye2000]

Just looking for some words of advice from patent agents/lawyers out there. 

Here is my situation:

I have a BS in Nuclear Engineering (3.88 GPA), a technical background in electrical engineering (over 60 college credits received for my electrical background), and a law degree (3.16 GPA).  I have 6 years experience in the nuclear and electronics industries.  I graduated from law school in May 2009.  Additionally I am a veteran, a former auto mechanic, a former carpenter, a registered patent agent, and expect to receive a passing score for the bar in my state when the grades are released in a little over a month.

I was originally offered a job from a patent firm, then the offer was retracted because of the economy.  I have applied to several patent firms since, yet am told they are 1) not hiring; 2) looking for someone with 2+ years experience; 3) only hire from their summer associates program; 4) only hire from OCI.  As a graduate I dont fit into any of these categories.  I look on the AIPLA website daily along with USA Jobs, Monster, Career Builder, The Ladders... etc. and cannot find anything entry level for patent attorney's or patent agents.

Ive been applying to the USPTO since my 1st year of law school (2006), originally for summer internships, and in the summer of 2008 for a job.  I have never received any communication from the USPTO regarding my applications, even after sending them a letter asking for the status of my applications.  I have never been granted an interview and have never been expressly turned down.  In 2009 I finally received a promising email regarding two applications I had open with the USPTO.  I had applied for a position as an electrical examiner and a nuclear examiner.  I received a Notice of Results that said I was qualified for both positions... a few weeks later I received a letter from the USPTO telling me that they were freezing employment and no longer considering any applications.  In January 2010 I found a job posting on USA Jobs for an examiner position, and promptly applied.  I currently have not received any communication regarding this application.

Does anyone know how an entry-level patent agent, soon to be patent lawyer, can get his foot in the door in this profession?  I find it hard to believe that after graduation you are worthless.  I would think that most firms know that there are plenty of graduates out there that are just as qualified, if not more qualified than current students... especially in this job market.  Does anyone know how I might bring attention to my application with the USPTO?

Thanks in advance for your responses.

[trustme]

You are not alone. There are many, many out there like you. I've been out of law school for over a year now and have tried many of the same tactics you mentioned. I'm underemployed.
How about getting involved in your local bar association? Is there a free patent clinic run by any of the law schools in your area? Try volunteering there if you can.

I see you have engineering experience and a host of practical, real world experience. Like me, you are a true Renaissance Man! That's not the advantage you might think it is, but at least you have an advantage in the event of a nuclear holocaust. You'll be the only one who can get a car to run, and can do a host of the hands-on things that today's men (or women) don't know how to do any more.

I also see you are older. The reason I point out your age is that I think there is some subtle age discrimination in attorney hiring, and it's harder for us older lawyers to get our feet in the door.
Could you get work as a carpenter or car mechanic? That will pay better than Starbucks or some other job.

I also assume you've done a search of the patents and printed applications in your areas of expertise, seen who was the attorney or agent, and have already written them?

Search the threads for other advice. Good luck.

See the link for an excellent article on the long-term effects of the Great Recession. It makes for some grim reading, but is well worth it.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/03/how-a-new-jobless-era-will-transform-america/7919/?source=patrick.net

[popeye2000]

Thanks for the reply and the article TRUSTME, it helps to know that I am not alone.  You are right in your assumptions in many respects.  I am older than the average student graduating law school, but certainly not old... Im 34.  I was a submarine reactor operator/electronics technician in the Navy for 6 years, then worked in the private sector for 2 years as an electronics tech and process engineer in the semiconductor industry, where I was in the first wave of layoffs from the dotcom recession because I didnt hold a degree.  Thats when I went back to college at 25 to cure that defect.  You were also right in labeling me as a jack of all trades (although you put it much more eloquently).  Although I received the GI bill in college, I subsidized it by working as an auto mechanic (engine and body) as well as a carpenter and foreman of a punch-out crew on new home construction... I didnt want to have to take out any student loans for my undergrad degree.

I too am underemployed.  I am currently working as a "real estate data searcher"... in other words I fetch electronic copies of deeds, mortgages, liens and judgments against properties in foreclosure...  I work for a pittance... $10/hour.  I also do side jobs still in home repair, and with spring coming i will return to hauling my lawnmower around to mow yards... so like you sensed I am not without skills and am resourceful, but considering the only debt I have is my $86,000 in loans from law school, it is really hard to accept to mow yards and earn a small wage to pay off that loan, and not do anything in the field of law that I studied. 

I was recently turned down for a nuclear engineering position because I had a 3 year break between my nuclear degree and applying for the job, without relevant work experience (because of law school)... so it seems that not only has law school put me in debt, but rendered my nuclear degree worthless.  I was also turned down for an attorney postion with the Nuclear Regulatory Commossion, and adding insult to injury, know a girl who did get a position in the same application cycle whose undergrad degree was in music, and her law school GPA was below a 3.0

[tkfx2000]

I share your sentiments. I am in the same situation. I have over ten years of experience as a software engineer, an undergraduate degree in chemistry, and several years of experience as a research chemist. I graduated law school in 2009, passed the state bar, then passed the patent bar.  My software engineering job was sent overseas to the Ukraine in December where engineers are cheaper. At first I thought this was good coincidence and would help the transition to a legal career. Now I am coming to the realization that few are hiring new attorneys or agents.

[Sixes]

Just out of curiosity, did you call the hiring manager that your position at the USPTO will be under?  Applying through USAJOBS as a veteran should give you preference as well...it was bad luck about the previous hiring freeze (I have an almost identical story as you) but hopefully something will come of the current application. 

[popeye2000]

Just out of curiosity, did you call the hiring manager that your position at the USPTO will be under?  Applying through USAJOBS as a veteran should give you preference as well...it was bad luck about the previous hiring freeze (I have an almost identical story as you) but hopefully something will come of the current application. 

I never called the hiring manager.  I did try to call the OPM and was on hold for over an hour before I gave up.  I did email Robert Kim, who I know was doing interviews last summer at Loyola IP Job Fair in Chicago (ofcourse since I graduated I could not attend the fair), who told me that I just need to wait out the application process...

I would have figured veterans preference would have served some use, but im no longer certain that it is being applied correctly.  I claimed veteran preference for several other government applications, yet failed to receive interviews, while I know lesser qualified candidates who applied for the same position who did get interviews, and in some instances got a job in the applied for position.  I already had to correct the USPTO in my recent application about my veterans preference.  They originally turned down my recent application saying that I didnt meet the requirements to apply under the VEOP (the application was for local commuters and VEOP only).  I had to cite the code along with resubmitting my veteran documents pointing out where the improperly disqualified me and asking for them to correct the defect.

[trustme]

Popeye,

That's weird. I also have a small handyman business on the side. I am also pretty good at fixing things. I recently took apart and fixed a 1960's era Mercury outboard.

Handyman customers occasionally ask about my experience. I briefly tell them about law school and 11 years as an engineer. They usually give me a "well then, what's wrong with this guy" look. They should be thankful they're not in our shoes!

I am a bit surprised that you can't find anything with your experience in semiconductors.

I'm not surprised that returning to engineering has become difficult. I have been trying to get jobs in engineering for 8 months, and have gotten absolutely nowhere. A recruiter told me that employers now are looking for very, very specific skill sets; that anyone who might need the slightest bit of time to come fully up to speed will not be considered. But when you consider that the 2nd Great Depression has delayed retirement for many older workers and that there are an estimated 6 workers chasing each job, it makes some sense.

Honestly, I don't know what to tell you. I have tried every employment tactic that people have suggested; I have gone outside my comfort zone and networked. I attend local IP events as I can.
About the only thing I haven't done is written and published articles. I haven't done that because I am told it has the lowest reward (possibility of employment) / risk (it takes time to write an article) ratio. I also think that most of what I read in IP-related literature is just a rehashing of ideas already out there, no matter how cleverly written. Legal writing largely seems to be self-aggrandizing behavior.

Oh, your age also doesn't help for these reasons.
(1) You're going to be interviewing with, and working for younger people who went straight from undergrad to law school. They can feel insecure about your age and experience.
(2) Employers might feel that you'll have a sense of entitlement.
(3) Employers might feel that you won't have the energy of a younger person.
(4) Employers might feel that you might have family distractions to keep you from devoting all your energy to the job.

Of course, I don't have proof of any of this, but it makes sense to me. I've been on the other side of the hiring table.

[popeye2000]

lol... maybe we should all band together and start an E-firm.  Pool our knowledge as a collective to make up for where each of us might have some knowledge gaps, and start offering to write patent applications for $2000 over fees.

[russellmurray]

You are not alone. There are many, many out there like you. I've been out of law school for over a year now and have tried many of the same tactics you mentioned. I'm underemployed.
How about getting involved in your local bar association? Is there a free patent clinic run by any of the law schools in your area? Try volunteering there if you can.

I see you have engineering experience and a host of practical, real world experience. Like me, you are a true Renaissance Man! That's not the advantage you might think it is, but at least you have an advantage in the event of a nuclear holocaust. You'll be the only one who can get a car to run, and can do a host of the hands-on things that today's men (or women) don't know how to do any more.

I also see you are older. The reason I point out your age is that I think there is some subtle age discrimination in attorney hiring, and it's harder for us older lawyers to get our feet in the door.
Could you get work as a carpenter or car mechanic? That will pay better than Starbucks or some other job.

I also assume you've done a search of the patents and printed applications in your areas of expertise, seen who was the attorney or agent, and have already written them?

Search the threads for other advice. Good luck.

See the link for an excellent article on the long-term effects of the Great Recession. It makes for some grim reading, but is well worth it.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/03/how-a-new-jobless-era-will-transform-america/7919/?source=patrick.net

I agree to this advise. As a matter of fact, everyone starts from zero.

[DGL]

Good luck popeye.  I am in a similar situation looking for my first full-time legal position.  I am stuck doing engineering but I am also clerking part time at large firm doing some patent work.

[NJ Patent1]

Popeye:  I write just to chime-in with - I hope -  some words of support.

I garduated law school in top 10% of my class (3.8 GPA, 2nd tier but respected law school).  I attended law school evenings.  You do not get a break, same grading system - and same bar exam(s) apply.  Work 9-2-5 and take notes 6-2-10, then read cases all weekend.  I hold a PhD and BS w/ honors in my techical discipline.  I had 15 years experience, including two expat assignments, in industry.  It took me 6 months to get that "break" at a really good law firm. The economy was bad, but not as bad as it is today. My DOB ( I was 40+) didn't help.   Dumb luck and coincidence played a big role in landing that first "break".  You may be looking at 12+ months in this business climate.  Lost that job in the recession.  Now I'm 50+ and, w/ circa 15 yrs prosecution and opinion experience at at two really well-known firms, the best I can do is contract / project jobs and, ghads, an occasional doc review project (gotta eat!).

Concerning employment w/ the USPTO, the US government is the "worlds largest law firm". I've learned gobs on this site re: how the USPTO (dis)functions.  I don't know how it makes hiring decisions.  But you have earned a veterans preference.  I have no idea how that is implemented. 

Hang in there!  To borrow a cliche'; the job search is a marathon, not a sprint.  Or as a popular (w/ tourists) t-shirt here in NYC puts it "The Bronx - Only the Strong Survive" 

Often a prospective employer, legal or otherwise, looks at three things:  can do, will do, and "fit".  Can do you have covered.  Will do? How intellectually versatile are you? Or are you, as Germans say, a "Fachidiot"  Examples please.  Fit?  Are you well-rounded?  A team player?  Good people skills?   This has to come through in an interview.

All the best, NJP1

[NJ Patent1]

trustme:  Trust me.  Age discrimination is anything but subtle, and impossible to win in court wrt hiring decisions.  It's silly but it's the way it is.  If a firm can get 1900+ billable hours out of me for 10 years, does it matter that I'm grey at the temples?  Yep, it sure does.  W/ rare exceptions in certain circles, the Tom Brady, Mark Sanchez, Tony Romo GQ impression wins-out over the (late) Ted Kennedy or Joe Biden "elder statesman" look.  It's about impressions.  We in the US are just wired that way (in Germany, some business leaders have been lamenting the lack or experience in their work force, too many early retirements).  I, and others like me, just gotta deal with it.  Find a crack in the wall and drive a wedge through it. 

[Sticker Guy]

The reason that you haven't heard from the PTO is that they don't have the money to pay you. The money gets diverted to help pay for other things that the Government deems more important than IP. They are still working off of the FY2011 budget thanks to the most recent continuing resolution. Hopefully things will change in 2012. David Kappos keeps saying that he wants to hire 1500 examiners. I bet once the fee diversion stops, you will hear from the PTO.
http://www.ipo.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=This_Weeks_Daily_News&Template=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=31116

[russellmurray]

In the beginning, it's really hard. But perseverance pays off.