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[nashford]

I was wondering the following:

How do I trademark and do i need an IP Lawyer to do so?

As the recipe is not patentable, how do I protect it? NDA between partners?

What protects me legally from the bottling plant who makes the product for me in terms of the recipe? NDA only again?

Can i patent the label design? What else about a beverage is patentable?

What stages of a beverage startup would I realistically need an IP lawyer for?

[ErykSD]

I would recommend reading the book "From Patent to Profit" by Bob Dematteis... it will be well worth the 25$ investment.

You wouldn't usually patent your recipe, you would keep it as a trade secret if it is really unique. This is what the food industry does... the recipe will only be known by a few select people.

As for the bottling company leaking your recipe... research what coca-cola does. I believe they have the recipe split between a few select people and keep tight security.

[hockeydude34]

I was wondering the following:

How do I trademark and do i need an IP Lawyer to do so?

As the recipe is not patentable, how do I protect it? NDA between partners?

What protects me legally from the bottling plant who makes the product for me in terms of the recipe? NDA only again?

Can i patent the label design? What else about a beverage is patentable?

What stages of a beverage startup would I realistically need an IP lawyer for?

you do not need an IP lawyer to do a trademark.  You don't even have an actual trademark; you can file a federal "intent to use" basis application.  Unless you have the resources, I would consider filing in your state.  Faster, cheaper.  Of course, before doing any of that, you should do a search to see if the mark is already used.

a label design could be patentable if it is new, useful, and non-obvious.  It also has to be patentable subject matter, such as a process or an article of manufacture.

You're probably thinking about copyright, which is used to protect original works of work fixed in a tangible medium (i.e., you extracted it from your brain some how.

you sound like you're in over your head?  Google trademark FAQ.  Then patent FAQ.  that shoud give you more info.

[MYK]

a label design could be patentable if it is new, useful, and non-obvious.  It also has to be patentable subject matter, such as a process or an article of manufacture.

And how is a label design going to fall within statutory subject matter for a patent?

[hockeydude34]

a label design could be patentable if it is new, useful, and non-obvious.  It also has to be patentable subject matter, such as a process or an article of manufacture.

And how is a label design going to fall within statutory subject matter for a patent?

I didn't.  In fact, I said he's probably thinking copyright.  read much?

However, anything is patentable... it just depends on the skill of the person drafting the application.

[JSonnabend]

I was wondering the following:

How do I trademark and do i need an IP Lawyer to do so?

As the recipe is not patentable, how do I protect it? NDA between partners?

What protects me legally from the bottling plant who makes the product for me in terms of the recipe? NDA only again?

Can i patent the label design? What else about a beverage is patentable?

What stages of a beverage startup would I realistically need an IP lawyer for?

you do not need an IP lawyer to do a trademark.  You don't even have an actual trademark; you can file a federal "intent to use" basis application.  Unless you have the resources, I would consider filing in your state.  Faster, cheaper.  Of course, before doing any of that, you should do a search to see if the mark is already used.

a label design could be patentable if it is new, useful, and non-obvious.  It also has to be patentable subject matter, such as a process or an article of manufacture.

You're probably thinking about copyright, which is used to protect original works of work fixed in a tangible medium (i.e., you extracted it from your brain some how.

you sound like you're in over your head?  Google trademark FAQ.  Then patent FAQ.  that shoud give you more info.

That's some pretty bad advice all around.  Best advice: if you're serious, talk to a qualified IP attorney.  Not only will it save you headache, but it will save you money in the long run.

- Jeff (a hockey dude who also happens to be an attorney)

[hockeydude34]

I was wondering the following:

How do I trademark and do i need an IP Lawyer to do so?

As the recipe is not patentable, how do I protect it? NDA between partners?

What protects me legally from the bottling plant who makes the product for me in terms of the recipe? NDA only again?

Can i patent the label design? What else about a beverage is patentable?

What stages of a beverage startup would I realistically need an IP lawyer for?

you do not need an IP lawyer to do a trademark.  You don't even have an actual trademark; you can file a federal "intent to use" basis application.  Unless you have the resources, I would consider filing in your state.  Faster, cheaper.  Of course, before doing any of that, you should do a search to see if the mark is already used.

a label design could be patentable if it is new, useful, and non-obvious.  It also has to be patentable subject matter, such as a process or an article of manufacture.

You're probably thinking about copyright, which is used to protect original works of work fixed in a tangible medium (i.e., you extracted it from your brain some how.

you sound like you're in over your head?  Google trademark FAQ.  Then patent FAQ.  that shoud give you more info.

That's some pretty bad advice all around.  Best advice: if you're serious, talk to a qualified IP attorney.  Not only will it save you headache, but it will save you money in the long run.

- Jeff (a hockey dude who also happens to be an attorney)

yes.  if you're serious, have time, and if you have $$$, always good to talk to an attorney.

Or, do some cheap, free, easy groundwork that doesn't require the help of an attorney.

I'm a business owner, an attorney, and I play hockey.  I also invented the internet.

[JSonnabend]

yes.  if you're serious, have time, and if you have $$$, always good to talk to an attorney.

Or, do some cheap, free, easy groundwork that doesn't require the help of an attorney.

I'm a business owner, an attorney, and I play hockey.  I also invented the internet.

Well, at least you're giving some good advice now (the talk to a lawyer part).  I cannot tell you how many times I've had clients come to me after "doing it themselves" only to find they'd screwed things up badly.  In some cases, they irrevocably forfeited important rights.

The problem with "cheap, free, easy groundwork" is that the hidden costs render it far from cheap or free and the truth is, for non-attorneys, it is far from easy.  Indeed, if a layperson were to read your advice in your first post above and follow it, they'd likely end up in a bad spot. 

- Jeff

[hockeydude34]

yes.  if you're serious, have time, and if you have $$$, always good to talk to an attorney.

Or, do some cheap, free, easy groundwork that doesn't require the help of an attorney.

I'm a business owner, an attorney, and I play hockey.  I also invented the internet.

Well, at least you're giving some good advice now (the talk to a lawyer part).  I cannot tell you how many times I've had clients come to me after "doing it themselves" only to find they'd screwed things up badly.  In some cases, they irrevocably forfeited important rights.

The problem with "cheap, free, easy groundwork" is that the hidden costs render it far from cheap or free and the truth is, for non-attorneys, it is far from easy.  Indeed, if a layperson were to read your advice in your first post above and follow it, they'd likely end up in a bad spot. 

- Jeff

I would give your "speak to an attorney" advice more credibility if not for the fact that you readily advertise available for such services.  Clearly self-interest driven, whether you admit such or not.

Moreover, there's absolutely nothing wrong with what I said.  A "layperson" can learn some very basic understanding by taking the time to read someany one of the bevy of websites that provdie free information.

[hockeydude34]

nashford - I own/run a start-up beverage company.  I'm also an IP attorney.

Let's talk!

Does this thing have private messaging capability??

[JSonnabend]

I would give your "speak to an attorney" advice more credibility if not for the fact that you readily advertise available for such services.  Clearly self-interest driven, whether you admit such or not.

Moreover, there's absolutely nothing wrong with what I said.  A "layperson" can learn some very basic understanding by taking the time to read someany one of the bevy of websites that provdie free information.

I have over 3,000 posts on this forum filled with substantive, useful advice, and I never charge for initial telephone consultation -- which I get all the time from users here -- and you're saying I am merely advertising my services here?  Man, that's hubris.

Your advice was awful, and to considering you're an IP attorney, that's sad.

- Jeff

[hockeydude34]

I would give your "speak to an attorney" advice more credibility if not for the fact that you readily advertise available for such services.  Clearly self-interest driven, whether you admit such or not.

Moreover, there's absolutely nothing wrong with what I said.  A "layperson" can learn some very basic understanding by taking the time to read someany one of the bevy of websites that provdie free information.

I have over 3,000 posts on this forum filled with substantive, useful advice, and I never charge for initial telephone consultation -- which I get all the time from users here -- and you're saying I am merely advertising my services here?  Man, that's hubris.

Your advice was awful, and to considering you're an IP attorney, that's sad.

- Jeff

I don't rate my suggestions on an internet message board to that of a professional opinion.  To do so is, as you said, sad.  Well, and frankly, quite lauhgable.

Congrats on your 3000 posts - I hope your clients enjoy you spending that amount of time here.  Cheers.

and I love the fact that you admit to getting all this business from this website...and yet you don't claim to advertise/solicit said business.  LMAO.  To each their own I guess.

[JSonnabend]

I don't rate my suggestions on an internet message board to that of a professional opinion. 

I'm not sure what exactly that means. 

On the one hand, you suggest that a layperson can find lots of free, useful information on line.  Then, when an attorney takes his own time to provide free, meaningful, substantive, correct advice (and to call out an anonymous "hockeydude" for giving bad advice), you lambaste him for it.  Like I said, that's hubris.

You can feel free to have the last word, then I will lock this thread.

- Jeff

[JimIvey]

Does this thing have private messaging capability??

Yes.  Yes, it does.

[JimIvey]

Just to chime in a bit here....

Jeff's been posting here for a long time and I don't think I've ever seen anything he's written that seems like trolling for business.  I've seen posts here that say, in essence, give me a retainer and I'll answer your question.  Jeff doesn't do that.

More importantly, it doesn't do anyone any good to criticize a post merely for inferred motivation of the poster.  Instead, the post is either accurate or it isn't.  I recommend sticking to the substance of the posts.

As for trademarks, the time required for an attorney to help with a trademark is really small (compared to patents at least), so the help of an attorney early on is not terribly expensive and can help head off problems before they start.  I would say doing a trademark yourself is penny-wise and dollar-foolish. 

And, before anyone accuses me of being blinded by self-interest here, I don't do trademark work.  If anyone came to me for help on a trademark issue, I'd decline the representation and only offer a referral if asked.  And, I don't accept or pay referral fees -- they're illegal in my state.  Even if I needed my own trademark, I'd probably hire someone to help me.

And, "intent to use" only works if you actually intend to use the mark in conjunction with products or services.

Lastly, there's a Trademark Forum here where people who know much more about trademarks than I do will offer insight and help.

Regards.