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Author Topic: Judge Rader announces new patent attorney troll career path  (Read 5772 times)
DogDayPM 9er9er9er
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« on: 10-08-09 at 02:42 pm »

http://oralarguments.cafc.uscourts.gov/mp3/2009-1044.mp3

Skip ahead to just after 12 minutes.  This is from Forest Group v. Bon Tool. 

Judge Rader's comments around 12 minutes are relating to the new vogue of patent attorneys suing companies with outdated or otherwise incorrect patent markings; he names them "Marking Trolls".

 Grin

Judge Rader will also be speaking at the AIPLA meeting on "Trolls and Other Creatures of the Night!"
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MYK
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« Reply #1 on: 10-08-09 at 03:00 pm »

Yay!  Something new I can sue over!
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DogDayPM 9er9er9er
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« Reply #2 on: 10-08-09 at 03:19 pm »

Yay!  Something new I can sue over!

Being called a troll, or do you mean suing companies for false marking? 

If the latter, it's been around for ages but has just become stylish.
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« Reply #3 on: 10-08-09 at 03:35 pm »

Yay!  Something new I can sue over!

Being called a troll, or do you mean suing companies for false marking? 

If the latter, it's been around for ages but has just become stylish.
Why not both!!
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Jonathan
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« Reply #4 on: 10-08-09 at 03:50 pm »

There is no such thing as a patent troll. People who sue over a patent, for whose tech is not actually used, are merely non-practicing entities..   Wink
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horsechute
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« Reply #5 on: 10-08-09 at 04:07 pm »

A lot of attorneys I know think Judge Rader is totally clueless. I think his opinions are awful. Funny thing is, I used to find a lot of examiners thought his opinions were great.
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lukertin
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« Reply #6 on: 10-08-09 at 05:03 pm »

A lot of attorneys I know think Judge Rader is totally clueless. I think his opinions are awful. Funny thing is, I used to find a lot of examiners thought his opinions were great.
I didn't know examiners regularly read court opinions...
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horsechute
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« Reply #7 on: 10-08-09 at 05:30 pm »

Good point.
« Last Edit: 10-08-09 at 05:48 pm by horsechute » Logged
DogDayPM 9er9er9er
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« Reply #8 on: 10-08-09 at 10:21 pm »

There is no such thing as a patent troll. People who sue over a patent, for whose tech is not actually used, are merely non-practicing entities..   Wink

Yes there is.  A patent troll is a particular class of an NPE who files ludicrous claims and spends most of their litigation efforts in so clouding the issues that a jury of, at most, high school grads (and not a single juror having even attended college, let alone graduated college)* just shrugs their shoulders and rolls the dice and ends up giving a hundred million to a bald-faced liar.  Or rather, to the venture-funded shell of an LLC to which the liar has sold his patent.


*Guess which district, you get three guesses, and the first 2 don't count.

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« Reply #9 on: 10-08-09 at 11:54 pm »

I'm not sure why the judge took this stance.  The whole point of the rule is to stop false marking.  As a matter of public policy it has been determined that we want to create disincentives to false marking and the per/item interpretation is a way to actually do that.  To call those who go after these people "trolls" is just silly as giving a private reward is a way to create the disincentive without spending tax payer dollars.  Further, there is a solution if you don't want to fall prey to a "troll'" - don't falsely mark your products!

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« Reply #10 on: 10-09-09 at 08:53 am »

There is no such thing as a patent troll. People who sue over a patent, for whose tech is not actually used, are merely non-practicing entities..   Wink

Agreed, and this makes Universities with huge patent portfolios, on which they don't practice, the biggest "trolls" of them all.
As Hosteny, Esq. once remarked, obtaining patents with the hope that someday someone will want to use it has for a long time in American history provided impetus for adoption of new technologies that in the absence of the inventor obtaining a patent, would never have been known.  Scores of examples abound.  It would be equitable for the courts to mete justice as iterated in Ebay v. MercExchange equally to individuals and universities alike, in a nation of laws and not of men.
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Robert K S
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« Reply #11 on: 10-09-09 at 04:09 pm »

Fun argument, and I was digging the cloud metaphors.  Where does one happen upon these recordings, anyway?
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« Reply #12 on: 10-10-09 at 07:52 am »

I'm not sure why the judge took this stance.  The whole point of the rule is to stop false marking.  As a matter of public policy it has been determined that we want to create disincentives to false marking and the per/item interpretation is a way to actually do that.  To call those who go after these people "trolls" is just silly as giving a private reward is a way to create the disincentive without spending tax payer dollars.  Further, there is a solution if you don't want to fall prey to a "troll'" - don't falsely mark your products!
A marking that is outdated isn't falsely marked, IMHO, and any attorney who sues because the patent has expired should be disbarred.  What's next, requiring disappearing markings that evaporate 20 years from filing date?

Expiration date is trivial to check, and as such, marking an item with the number of an expired should never be held deceptive.

Disclaimer: haven't listened to the audio yet, can't do it on this computer.
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DogDayPM 9er9er9er
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« Reply #13 on: 10-10-09 at 12:36 pm »

Fun argument, and I was digging the cloud metaphors.  Where does one happen upon these recordings, anyway?

Hi Robert.  If you truncate the link I provided after the ".gov" (i.e., http://oralarguments.cafc.uscourts.gov), you end up on the CAFC's mpeg search page.  If you know case number, case styling (like "Forest Group v. Bon Tool" for this one), or even date of arguments, you can search for it.  Takes them about 5 hrs to a day to get the audio plugged in, by the way.  Some of the rooms have only been wired for a few years, so the library doesn't go back all that far.

Also, you can check the monthly calendar at http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/calendar.html for upcoming arguments, which are listed by case number and parties and also tell you the constitution of the panel hearing the argument.
« Last Edit: 10-10-09 at 07:25 pm by DogDayPM » Logged

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DogDayPM 9er9er9er
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« Reply #14 on: 10-10-09 at 01:05 pm »

A marking that is outdated isn't falsely marked, IMHO, and any attorney who sues because the patent has expired should be disbarred.  What's next, requiring disappearing markings that evaporate 20 years from filing date?

Expiration date is trivial to check, and as such, marking an item with the number of an expired should never be held deceptive.

I agree but no courts that I know of have said this.  The Brooks Brothers case which is pending appeal was over an very old patent on a tie clasp (I think that was the item).  Marked something like, "The Original Patented Tie Clasp, Pat. No. 1234567".  Obviously this is not an intent to deceive, but rather a type of trade dress.  Still, it was not tossed on those grounds.  Rather, the judge there said the patent attorney troll suing BB did not have standing because he had alleged no injury.  (There are article III "govt can't confer standing of its interest/injury if it is purely a money interest" and also a couple of article II arguments against constitutionality).  In the Solo Cup case which I believe is also pending appeal, the issue was also expired patents.

In this case, however, I think the plaintiff has a much more colorable argument for suit.  Started off with the (now) defendant company suing the current plaintiff company for patent infringement.  Because of the Markman ruling, it became clear that the claims of the patent covered neither the alleged infringer's product nor the patentee's own product.

Nonetheless, the patentee continued to make orders of new goods with the same patent marking.  So, while this case appears to have been instigated as a poke in the eye type of revenge from one competitor to another, it's not trolling over expired patents.

More seriously, and more broadly, I think the false marking statute should be canned if the Congress ever gets around to revising the patent laws.  We no longer live in a time when Jonathan has to ride his pony express cross-country through the 3-foot snows of Buffalo to personally visit Washington, D.C. to learn the scope of claims on a patent.  I mean, do you think for one second that ANY manufacturer could be deceived by a false marking?   

In earlier days, the argument was that false marking reduced competition, thus harming the public, because Manufacturer B would not explore copying the (incorrectly) marked product.  But now?  Seriously? 

On the other hand, if you have a product line with 20,000 SKUs it can be very difficult to keep up with the slight changes in products which happen from time to time, but can take the product outside of the claims scope.  And packaging only gets reviewed by legal when someone (usually marketing) is driving a change to the look of the package.  So you get sued by a trolling patent attorney who obviously doesn't have enough real work, and spend $200K or 300K in legal fees proving there was no intent to deceive.  Or you pay the troll some amount of your expected defense costs to go away. 

And we all know you're not supposed to feed the trolls.
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