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[kjw5029]

So here's the deal.  I am a 1L at Cooley, and I am trying to decide what to do.  I'm not here for people to tell me this school is horrible  because I'm aware of it's less than stellar reputation.  The fact of the matter is I'm here and I need to make a decision.  The best people to consult are the experienced ones, so this is why I am posting here.  I basically have three options from what I can see. 

(1) I can stay here and attempt to do well.  The issues is, even if I do well and assuming the economy continues its progress, with a JD from here and a CE degree, will I even be able to find a respectable job?  I'm not talking biglaw because I realize they only take lawyers from top law schools, but a job maybe as scientific adviser in which I will be able to work my way into an associates role?  The pros of this from what I can tell is I have my JD and can possibly be a lawyer.  The cons are I will be about 60k in debt and maybe won't be able to find a respectable job.

(2) I can stay here and try to transfer.  The school's attrition rate is astronomical and the chance of doing well enough to transfer, even to another crappy school, probably is not in my favor.  Assuming I can transfer, this is clearly the best option, but I would also rather not stay here for a year just to realize I can't.  The fact of the matter is, if I can't transfer, I can only stay here or I can leave with about 20k of debt.  Seems like a high risk road to take, but I can't decide if the risk is greater than the reward.

(3)  I can leave now with very minimal debt.  I would be able to leave with less than 5k debt, but would probably lose the option of going to law school in the future.  I would have to disclose I was here, so my LSATs and prior school history are pretty much embedded in stone.   I could take the patent bar and be solely a patent agent.

Basically, I am wondering if with a successful economy, I could potentially come out of a poor law school but find a respectable job. In the short term from what I can tell, 3 is clearly the best option.   For the long term, well 1 is probably the best option assuming what I have thought and stated is correct.  However, I would absolutely like to hear what current lawyers and agents in the field think.  Thanks a lot for you help in advance. 

[Robert K S]

Stay at any unhappy place for any length of time after its unhappiness is understood can only harden you to the experience of happiness later.  Law school should not be a trial to be withstood or tolerated.  Try options (2) or (3).

[MYK]

I guess I'm wondering why you chose Cooley at all.  Didn't you know its reputation and job placement stats ahead of time?

So, disclaimer, I don't have a clue, I'm just going to ramble.

IMHO, what it comes down to is whether you want to be a patent attorney or not.

If not, you're probably fine dropping out and becoming an agent.  You might even have a shot at the USPTO examining corps in a bit, since CE is one of the few things they're chronically short of.  In a few years, you could go back to law school elsewhere, either way.

If you do want that JD, you could go solo when (or if, given attrition rates there) you graduate.  Another T4 would probably take you as a transfer no matter what (my understanding is that the private T4's are mostly out to collect tuition payments), although I think I read somewhere that Cooley can be snarky about releasing transcripts for students who try to transfer out.  You can contact some of the other T4's in Michigan to see what they say, or for that matter WSU and MSU (T3's).

Moving up to a T2/T1, if you did well, who knows.

I don't think any firm would hire you as a tech spec after you got your JD.  You'd either be hired as an associate or not at all, most likely the latter.  I mean, how are they going to explain it to clients and to other people at the firm if you have a JD but aren't hired as an associate?

I've seen a few posts here in the last few years from T3/T4 grads who were unable to find any legal work after graduating, even before the economy got blatantly bad.  In the current environment, even T1 grads are having a hard time.

I expect the economy to get much worse, also, but I was told Friday that I was wrong about things, so maybe I'm just a pessimist who is unable to see the economic miracle that Bernanke's Zimbabwean currency devaluation policies are creating.  (Note: I freely admit that they may instead be Argentinean currency devaluation policies.  I'm not sure which would be worse.  Either way, we still end up broke and in chaos.)

[kjw5029]

Well to be honest, I was told the opposite about Cooley's reputation before I came here by many individuals.  I trusted their opinions, but in the end it was my choice to come here.  As for transferring to another T4 school, I'm not sure if that would help.  From what I can tell, if T3/T4 grads were struggling to find legal work before the economy slumped, than transferring won't even help assuming the economy recovers.  I would like to be a patent attorney though.  This is why I came here.  However, what is the purpose of spending 3 years and 60k if the chances of finding a job are extremely limited?  I guess maybe I could transfer to a T4 in a location where I want to practice.  That would possibly make things easier, but it still seems like a long shot. 

Good point about the tech spec.  This is why I posted on here.  I don't really know how the field operates, so that is definitely helpful. 

I guess what I should probably be deciding now is whether it is worth it to stick out here a semester to see if I can't transfer to a higher ranked school.  If I can't, well it doesn't seem like there is much hope of finding a job to pay back my student loans, so staying really isn't an option.  I'm really just trying to reason with myself here which has proven quite difficult in such a sticky situation.  I have talked to a lot of people about this and many seem to think it will pay off in the end and is worth sticking out.  From what I can tell, you two disagree?  Any thought you have to my reasoning here would also be greatly appreciated!

[bald & chained]

Does CE stand for a chemical or civil engineering degree? If it stands for civil, then most people I know with civil eng. degrees are doing litigation, partly b/c there is very little demand in prosecution for civil engineers. Yet your chances coming out of Cooley to do IP Lit are pretty low, unless you do exceptionally well.  On the other hand, if CE stands for chemical engineering, then your opportunities might be a little better, since there is at least some market for chem. engineers for prosecution and I do not think that PhD are not required (as far as I understand).  So you could hypothetically do either litigation or prosecution with that degree, still assuming great grades, which does broaden your employment search market.  This is just my 2c, can't tell you to stay or drop out, but hopefully that piece of info allows you to weight your chances a little better.

EDIT: And if CE stands for Computer Engineering, your opportunities are much better than with either chemical or civil engineering.

[kjw5029]

I guess specifying that would have been helpful.  CE in my case stands for Civil Engineering (specifically structural).  I spoke with a patent agent in the local area a short time ago and was told that as a civil engineer, I could probably find work in the field related to mechanical engineering.  I was also told that this person works with someone who is a civil engineer by trade, but does work for medical devices.  They also said that higher education wasn't necessary (although valued) in order to enter into the field.  Say I did leave school.  Is the field even hiring tech specs at the moment especially since I only have a BS and not some sort of post grad degree?

[AustrianOak]

My honest opinion is that with a Civil Engineering degree (not one of the top degrees in demand for prosecution), and a very low tier law school degree, you will have an extremely hard time getting your foot in the door to become a Patent Attorney, even if you do well in law school.  Sorry for the bad news.

If you are dead set on becoming a Patent Attorney (it is a great career), I'd suggest dropping Cooley, treading water for a little while, and then becoming an Examiner when the PTO starts hiring again.  After a year or two of work, your previous LSAT and GPA aren't going to matter as much to a law school.  You will also have experience that most prosecution firms consider valuable. 

[bald & chained]

After a year or two of work, your previous LSAT and GPA aren't going to matter as much to a law school.  You will also have experience that most prosecution firms consider valuable. 

Well, I wouldn't be so sure about being able to wipe the slate clean like that.  What is the process for dropping out of law school and then reapplying again to a different school a few years later?  Is that even possible? LSAT and GPA would matter just as much for getting into a different school (assuming that's even allowed), so you'd have to retake LSAT.  Again, I am dubious whether this path is even feasible.  You might be stuck with Cooley permanently unless you properly transfer out, but the best way to verify this is to check with the admissions people.

[MYK]

I'd have to agree, between civil engineering and Cooley, your chances are essentially nil, unless you marry a partner's daughter or something.

The USPTO isn't hot for civil engineers, only for computer engineers.  You might eventually be able to get something there, but in this economy I wouldn't expect it to happen any time soon.

[MYK]

What is the process for dropping out of law school and then reapplying again to a different school a few years later?  Is that even possible?

Sure, just rare, and without some rational explanation of why (illness, major family problems) it would be considered a red flag.  You'd have to write a supplemental answer about why you withdrew, something that would reassure them that you weren't wasting a spot in their class if they admitted you.

OP, try asking these questions over at lawschooldiscussion.org -- they'll be able to answer questions about transferring or reapplying.  However, they'll also be a lot more abrasive about Cooley.

[petethebody]

unless you marry a partner's daughter or something.

titcr.  Or son, if you live in Mass or Iowa.  Come on man, how badly do you want that job?

But seriously, I will tell you what I tell everyone else who comes across the board looking for advice as to whether law school is worth it: very likely not.  (tangentially, I believe this is why DogDayPM and other posters refers to me as "a ray of sunshine"  )

I just talked to my 2L friend at Northwestern Law school.  Only the top 10% with Law Review have gotten offers so far with the big firms.  He's top 1/3 and has had a boatload of interviews - no offers.  USPTO is not hiring until 2011, according to the new director Kappos (see working at the pto thread).  Look at the USPTO and try to find a civil engineering patent; compare that to electrical devices.  Also, the market is flooded with patent lawyers without experience. 

As for the money you have invested: 5k is like a 2 month trip backpacking it through Europe.  Consider this your learning experience.  Not as cool as the Louvre or Oktoberfest, but just as valuable.  Put another way: don't look at the 5k as an anchor to the school.  It's a sunk cost that you can never get back - it's gone.  Only look at the balance.  Coldly, dispassionately and objectively look to see if the next 55k is worth it.

Have you ever thought about Army Corp of Engineers or becoming an actuary?

[bald & chained]

I just talked to my 2L friend at Northwestern Law school.  Only the top 10% with Law Review have gotten offers so far with the big firms.  He's top 1/3 and has had a boatload of interviews - no offers.

that sounds extreme. Maybe your friend is not a good interviewer? But if he's normal and the new hiring rule is top 10% from T14, then ... the legal world is coming to an end and I am just glad I got my job when I did...

[petethebody]

that sounds extreme. Maybe you friend is not a good interviewer? But if he normal and the new hiring rule is top 10% from T14, then ... the legal world is coming to an end and I am just glad I got my job when I did...

He's a very likable guy and knows how to play the game.  Much more of a sunny disposition than myself.

It's just brutal out there and no one is hiring a recent grad without experience.  In my city, big firms are planning for summer 2010 classes of 10-30 when two years ago they had 50-80.  And forget about 3L OCI; 65% was a phenomenal offer rate and they are probably still oversubscribed.  But, even if you weren't planning on biglaw, think about the other 90% of the class.  Where are they going to apply?  Same places as you: clerkship, government (which is on a hiring freeze anyway), small law and nonprofit.  Oh yeah, and let's not forget that you'll still be competing with all those young associates who have been laid off this last year.  And all of those 2009 grads who have gotten their offers revoked (up to 8 out of the Vault 100 firms). 

It's a blood bath out there, man. 

Welcome to the end times...

[lukertin]

My friend who's a 2L at a T20, no LR, not in the top 10% has an biglaw-level offer.  No previous work experience, either.

We can sit around and pontificate about new hiring rules but anecdotal evidence isn't going to get us anywhere.

[MYK]

My friend who's a 2L at a T20, no LR, not in the top 10% has an biglaw-level offer.  No previous work experience, either.

We can sit around and pontificate about new hiring rules but anecdotal evidence isn't going to get us anywhere.

Sure, there are always individual success stories.  I think someone on LSD (the .org above, not the drug, well, maybe both) claimed to know a person at Cooley who transferred to Yale after 1L.

Anyway, good luck, OP.  Remember, you CAN always go solo after graduating, start your own firm, and with luck and hard work get a start.  It's not like you won't be allowed to work as an attorney unless you get hired by someone else.