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[c_p219]

Anecdotal story here.  I clerked with a person who was a paralegal at the firm for a few years before decideding to go to law school.  She was in our summer associate class.  She didn't get the grades needed to be called back and they refused to give her the previous paralegal position she had there at the firm b/c she was going to be an attorney.  She got screwed pretty badly for being too ambitious.  Granted, this wasn't an IP firm.  But an interesting bit of info nonetheless. 

[petethebody]

Regarding future income potential:
Petethebody:
I do not understand your comment. You graduated top 2% from a T25.  I also assume you have a technical degree.  What do you mean by "regretting it everyday"?  Job prospects, income potential, type of work, hours?  I also don't understand the basis of your assertion that no firm would offer 95k for an experienced patent agent with an EE background, who graduated at or near a 3.0 from GW.  Please explain.  Do you know someone who has been in my shoes who did not attain a firm position?  Theoretically, I think I could be retained as a patent agent at at least my current salary at my current firm if I do not take the bar.

Listen man, you asked for advice and I gave it.  I know it wasn't what you wanted to hear, but I'm not gonna rationalize with you.  Do I know anyone who went to your exact school, got your exact grades, and had your exact experience?  Obviously not.  No analogy is perfect and no one has been in your exact situation - which is why I gave general advice.

Here's what I can tell you.  This is a tough economy and firms are not or barely hiring generally.  As for IP boutiques, I know a few who deferred associates and who asked them to come in early (undeferred them).  So, it's not entirely without hope.  But, these associates were top 5-10% at top 30 law schools (admittedly with no prosecution experience).  I know a lot of people who are unemployed, getting their offer rescinded who have much better grades than you. 

Since I know you won't listen to me, let me point you in the direction of more people who can.  You should call some people who graduated the pt program at your school this spring (2009) who had comparable work experience.  Find them on facebook, linkdin(sic), or through friends.  See how they are doing now, then consider whether it is worthwhile. 

Or is this all moot because you have already decided?  If you are going to continue, may I recommend having a backup area of law like tax, wills, public defender, etc. 

[petethebody]

Regarding future income potential:
Petethebody:
I do not understand your comment. You graduated top 2% from a T25.  I also assume you have a technical degree.  What do you mean by "regretting it everyday"?  Job prospects, income potential, type of work, hours?  I also don't understand the basis of your assertion that no firm would offer 95k for an experienced patent agent with an EE background, who graduated at or near a 3.0 from GW.  Please explain.  Do you know someone who has been in my shoes who did not attain a firm position?  Theoretically, I think I could be retained as a patent agent at at least my current salary at my current firm if I do not take the bar.

Listen man, you asked for advice and I gave it.  I know it wasn't what you wanted to hear, but I'm not gonna rationalize with you.  Do I know anyone who went to your exact school, got your exact grades, and had your exact experience?  Obviously not.  No analogy is perfect and no one has been in your exact situation - which is why I gave general advice.

Here's what I can tell you.  This is a tough economy and firms are not or barely hiring generally.  As for IP boutiques, I know a few who deferred associates and who asked them to come in early (undeferred them).  So, it's not entirely without hope.  But, these associates were top 5-10% at top 30 law schools (admittedly with no prosecution experience).  I know a lot of people who are unemployed, getting their offer rescinded who have much better grades than you. 

Since I know you won't listen to me, let me point you in the direction of more people to whom you might listen.  You should call some people who graduated the pt program at your school this spring (2009) who had comparable work experience.  Find them on facebook, linkdin(sic), or through friends.  See how they are doing now, then consider whether it is worthwhile. 

Or is this all moot because you have already decided or because your semester's tuition is now nonrefundable?  If you are going to continue, may I recommend having a backup area of law like tax, wills, public defender, etc. 

[bald & chained]

"I will have reasonable job prospects at a six-figure income upon graduation"

Sorry man, but no you wont.  Drop out, bud.  I graduated this year top 2% from a T25 and am regretting it everyday.  No firm that pays above 95k will want someone with less than a 3.0 from GW, especially a part-time student. 

Put another way, if you had a 1/100 chance of making money back on a loan within 8 years, would you make that loan?  Obviously not.  Why is law school any different?  There's no shame in walking away - the only shame is being too pig-headed to know when to leave.

So what's your story?  Did your summer firm rescind an offer?

[petethebody]

So what's your story?  Did your summer firm rescind an offer?

Don't want to out myself yet.  I'm actually in a good position - no revoking of offers, but a guy came in to my pro bono place today and interviewing because his mid size big city offer just got revoked and there is literally nothing out there that is a paying gig.  Reading atl, seeing friends who graduated a year or two ahead of me getting shitcanned.  Bad stuff.  Out of my graduating law school class, everyone who got a firm job got deferred by at least 6 mos, I know 6 people who got their offer revoked (1 right before the bar), and everyone i talk to is basically on the verge of a nervous breakdown.  We are all waiting for the call to get redeferred or revoked.  Plus loans go into repayment in 2 months. 

I don't have a vendetta against the OP or anything, but I think this board can be a little slanted because just about everyone here is an experienced examiner or atty (at least not a total noob).  I'm not trying to sound agist or fan the flames of a generational argument, but things are a lot different out there for even top students at good law schools.  I've come to this forum for advice many times because I like the people here and they are knowledgeable.  The only real shortcoming is that I think people here can be too supportive.  I think it's unfair or not really beneficial to tell people at the bottom of their class that they can do anything if they try.  We're not kids anymore.

[bald & chained]

yeah, but you told a guy with 3 years of patent agent experience in EE prosecution to drop out of law school, which I think is shortsighted, especially since his grades in GW are not absolutely horrible.  I think he'll find something when he starts looking.  He isn't a noob, as you put it

[saintlos]

I was too under the impression that experience gets you farther than excellent grades when it comes to that 1yr-associate position. That's why I'm sticking to my patent agent position (in-house) while attending a top100 school part-time, and keeping B average as my realistic goal.

so I'm in the exact same boat as the OP. A smaller boat, actually, given the lower-ranked school, etc.

I guess I could restate OP's question slightly differently:
- would it be better to quit the FT job, concentrate on better grades and graduate with a .5 better GPA on the expense of 3 years of patent prosecution experience (financial factors aside)? My answer was "no", but I would really like to know what the 'gurus' on this forum think of it.

[cheezwhiz]

I'd say go be an engineer, even if you were 1st in your class at Harvard.  The pay isn't great but it's a much better way to live your life.

[bald & chained]

I'd say go be an engineer, even if you were 1st in your class at Harvard.  The pay isn't great but it's a much better way to live your life.

a very short life though, because the robots you build will eventually become sentient and kill you.

[stuffball]

yeah, but you told a guy with 3 years of patent agent experience in EE prosecution to drop out of law school, which I think is shortsighted, especially since his grades in GW are not absolutely horrible.  I think he'll find something when he starts looking.  He isn't a noob, as you put it

LOL.  Seconded.  OP will do fine. 

[GW EE]

Mostly, I have been concerned by situations occurring similar to that described by c_p219 where firms let you go for not doing well in school regardless of your experience or time spent with the firm.  I have heard of some student associates (i.e., patent agents) at various firms not getting offers and, I believe, were let go.  These concerns have been exacerbated by my poor law school performance. 

The likelihood of me attaining an associate position at a "big law" or equivalent firm is extremely limited at best.  The likelihood of me attaining an associate position where I focus on an area other than patent prosecution is extremely limited at best.  By obtaining patent prosecution experience in the electrical arts, I am hoping that the likelihood of attaining a patent prosecution associate position in a medium-sized IP firm is still reasonable.  Is this correct?  I also believe these firms still pay 100K+.  Is this correct?

I understand that the economy sucks and firms are not currently hiring.  If the economy continues to suck - all current law/graduate students are in for it.  I think firms will be looking to hire associates in a couple of years so only students currently at or near graduation will be hit the worst. 

Petethebody: I do appreciate your candor and experience.  I was only asking for more information and clarification.  I have not made a decision on whether I should finish the degree.  I have decided to continue to pursue the degree for the next semester.  If I stopped pursuing law school, what would you recommend I do (i.e., what would you do if you were in my position or were not picked up by a firm)? Go to medical school? Business school seems more worthless than law school.

Another concern of mine is that my firm seems be in a perpetual mode of lay offs.  If the firm does lay me off, are medium-sized IP firms or companies hiring experienced patent agents?

[GW EE]

Cheezwhiz: I agree that engineering is far more interesting than law.  I would rather build something that works than write about how something works.  Unfortunately, engineering does not pay and for the most part you end up computer programming - at least that has been my experience.

[DogDayPM 9er9er9er]

. . . concerned by . . . firms let you go for not doing well in school regardless of your experience or time spent with the firm.  ***

 ***

*** I have decided to continue to pursue the degree for the next semester.  If I stopped pursuing law school, what would you recommend I do (i.e., what would you do if you were in my position or were not picked up by a firm)? Go to medical school? Business school seems more worthless than law school.

I've lurked my way through this thread and while I can't tell you what firms might do, it strikes me that you seem to have resigned yourself to grades that will average out "at or near" a 3.0.  Why?  What have you got invested so far after 1 year as a PT student?  20-24 hours, right?  So you've got 75% of the degree left to go, man (or "woman") - shake off the thought that you're stuck where you are.  You said you got about 3.2 your second semester and have an average of 2.85 after 2 sems, that means your 1st sem. really tanked and you brought it up considerably for the 2nd semester, right?  Bring it up further this semester and keep doing it.  Tell yourself you're going to get 3.4 or better from here out, and with a little rounding you can claim a 3.3 on graduation.

Now, petethebody can come yell about how I'm being too much of an enthusiasm cheerleader.  :-)

As an aside on the first retained/quoted line above, I think others have mentioned this but, if you're already doing good work, they still have work for you to do, and they're not paying anything for your school, then letting you go based on LS grades seems inefficient.  An efficient manager would simply milk you for all they could at agent pay during LS and then fail to offer you an associate position when you graduate, if grades were the issue.  On the other hand, an efficient manager might use grades as an excuse to let you go if they don't have enough work for you and/or not satisfied with your work?

Medical school?  Hey, I've heard it's (a) kind of tough to get into and (b) kind of tough to be in.

[stuffball]

That and I don't think anybody (at least at my firm) considers a 3.0 from GW to be a bad GPA.  Maybe they would if you were going full time, but certainly not PT and working.  I don't even think they'd consider a 2.7 from GW to be a bad GPA.  We're a gen'l practice firm ranking in the lower half of the vault 100 and we pay new associates well above $120k.

[klaviernista]

That makes sense, i guess.  I suppose financial issues can be highly personal and specific.  I would say, though, in my experience a GW JD is usually worth the price.  Great law school + great experience + mediocre grades probably adds up to at least $95k.  What do you think, klav?

Sorry for the delay in responding.  Work has picked up and I recently accepted a new job, so I have been working double time to get my ducks in a row before shipping off to my new digs.

As for your question, I think most law degrees are worth the debt in the long run.  The problem is, most law students do not have a clue as to what the practice of law is really like until they leave law school.  As a result, they may be very disappointed with their career choice once they enter the workplace.  This places many law graduates in a tough position, i.e., one in which they are saddled with lots of debt, and the only way to pay it off quickly is to work a job that they may not like.

My advice to the OP is that if he/she can see practicing law for 5+ years and is willing to diligently pay off his/her student loan in that time, go for it.  If not, I would argue that jumping ship may be a viable option.  Take it from someone who knows - the golden handcuffs are shiny and pretty to look at, but they chafe quite a bit over time.