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Author Topic: Are Patents worth the paper they are written on?  (Read 8970 times)

BobRoberts

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Re: Are Patents worth the paper they are written on?
« Reply #75 on: 01-08-10 at 09:24 am »

Inventor A Said:
“REMEMBER; YOU ASKED FOR MY "SOLUTION".  (so make sure you read long enough...to get to it) Be advised, before we can "solve" anything, we must first ADMIT there is a PROBLEM in the first place and then... be prepared to look the problem squarely in the face for what it is, and all that it could be.  Are any of you in here, REALLY ready to do that ?? 
If you don't like the message, don't blame the messenger...

We'll soon find out just how realistic and truly "objective", any of you can actually be.”

The link that you provided is an anti-patent rant blog (big surprise) where it is difficult to distill any problems/solutions.  The only solutions that you appear to have provided was to let others pay for the services that you desire.  The rants at that site appear to be from a misunderstanding of patents and the legal system in general...  I'll try to discern what “problems” you are referring to, and address them.  I hope that you actually read and 'listen' to the responses, though from past experience, I doubt that you will.  And I again challenge you to read my 12-22-09 post, and address those concerns that I brought up...  This will be provided in several posts...

Inventor A said:
“Why, should we be repeatedly exploited…? (for many thousands of dollars
in our striving to make the world a better place) …only to find out (after many years of diligence) the harsh reality that your “disclosures” - (ideas, that you’d spent good money on, & lots of effort to express and portray) - have been used to provide a “blueprint” for others. Far too frequently, individuals or “corporations” are allowed to “overwrite”, and are perhaps even encouraged to blatantly copy & steal - that which is rightfully yours.”

The whole purpose of Patents, is to provide a blueprint for others.  You disclose technology to the public as a trade-off for a right to exclude others from essentially making/using/selling/importing, etc... the technology you've disclosed.  The public disclosure (blueprint as you call it) is an important function to allow others to build off of your technology, thereby advancing the technical arts.  Re: “blatently copy and steal”- to the extent that their inventions/products read on claims of your patent, then they infringe.  If they don't read on your claims, then they are free to practice that technology (at least with respect to your patent).

Inventor A said:
“Still worse... many large firms have their highly paid “patent team” work long hours in effort to “break” your patent... which incidentally, [to them] only exists to give them - every possible advantage in expertly fashioning their own upgraded version of your idea.”

Again, I don't see a problem with this.  First, if an examiner missed relevant prior art during the patent process, or misinterpreted prior art during the patent process, and your patent should not have been as broad as it issued, then others have a right to set the record straight.  You are only entitled to an patent that discloses an invention that is useful, new, and non-obvious.  If there was something in existance at the time of your invention that would anticipate or obviate your invention as represented by your filed patent claims, then you were not entitled to that broad claim scope.  And as I said above, the “expertly fashioning their own upgraded ides” is the reason for the patent system- to get information in the public to build off of.  If the upgraded invention reads on your claims, then they infringe.  If not, they don't infringe...
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BobRoberts

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Re: Are Patents worth the paper they are written on?
« Reply #76 on: 01-08-10 at 09:26 am »

Continued...

Inventor A said:
“Presently, it works something like this

A.) You set up a meeting - to discuss (divulge) your IP idea(s).
(They decide whether or not it’s worth stealing...) & if not,
you get a quick “token patent” - for you to hang on your wall,
& show to your grand kids.”

Not even close to correct...  I know a large number of patent agents and attorneys and NONE would ever consider stealing or otherwise misappropriate a clients idea.  Re: token patent...  Again, no patent attorney I know (and I know a large number” ever aims to get their client a 'token' patent, I know of no attorney that will push for attaining a 'token' patnet unless the client has specifically requested it, after full disclosure....  In my experience, the closest this ever comes begins with the client approaching the IP attorney/firm, deciding that they don't want to do a patent search on their invention against the attorney's advice, and the patent is filed.  The examiner finds good art.  The attorney explains this to the inventor, who is now angry at the attorney because the inventer cannot ge the money that they spent in having the application that they prepared back, and begins to blame the patent attorney.  The attorney advises very low chance of success against the cited art.  The client mulls it over, and decides that any patent they can get and place on the widget is better than none, so advises the attorney to try against staggering odds to get patent protection.  The attorney manages to get narrow patent protection for the client, and the client is happy to have their piece of paper that says they have patent protection.  But the client, with por listening skills and poor memory, begins to get angry when similar devices hit the market and the clent cannot stop these devices.  The client then begins to blame the attorney, the patent 'system', and begins blogs where they say that the system is corrupt...

Inventor A said:
“B.) Then they may tell you... that they must do a – “patent search” to determine the “merit” of your idea. More realistically, this process could also buy them time - to shop it around their list (…of "black marketplace” - corporate customers).
C.) After they have determined its validity (and net worth) a “fee structure”
is then quickly established by the firm (based mainly on your ability to
pay & acquire capital). These ‘fees” are usually vague & seemingly
affordable in the beginning.”

Again, incorrect.  I know of no IP attorney/firm that would ever come close to what you mention.  Re: vague fees, the attorney could disclose every possible fee under the sun, and four hours later, tell you that 99.5 percent of these fees will never be relevant to your situation.  To require the attorney to disclose every RELEVANT fee to your particular situation would require the attorney to have a crystal ball. 
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BobRoberts

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Re: Are Patents worth the paper they are written on?
« Reply #77 on: 01-08-10 at 09:27 am »

Continued
Inventor A said:
“D.) The stages that are to then follow… become increasingly ambiguous, as well as costly - and, you’re constantly reminded that most of the actual “control” is in the hands of the USPTO’s “Primary Examiner” who was assigned to your case (with whom you’re not to correspond).
E.) The Lawyer & PTO then start you paying (on a regular basis) for a process... which is to remain forever-undefined, (but conveniently changes) on what seems to be a daily basis [… the outcome of which, they (singularly) claim to have, no ultimate direct control].
F.) The client is then stalled for undeterminable amounts of time for - expensive, frequently wasted - "Office Actions” that all too often become hopelessly convoluted by “the powers that be”. Does, a(deliberately contorted, and ever-changing) set of rules, set in a foreign language [...Patentese] - fully offer the true inventor all of their unquestionable rights - to “Due Process”? PTO processes (which can take years to complete), involve a game of “legalistic - Cat & Mouse” or, more simply defined, a game of - foreign language “Give & Take” whereby, your invention is typically redefined by an array of people, many of whose salaries are paid (although indirectly) by the very corporate entities that will be stealing it.
G.) Apparently - perpetrated by a rogue system that benefits [itself], by overcomplicating all that which should otherwise be simple in our opinion”

Getting a patent is an expensive process, when done through an agent/attorney/law firm.  And the 'control' is in the hands of the USPTO.  Examiners are extremely pressed-for-time, and to my knowledge do their best to review art and render office actions against a patent application.  The Office Actions issued are not always correct, but not because of corruption, but rather an imperfect system.  The system is not undefined.  Just because you don't understand the 'patentese' doesn't mean it is not valid.  The English language is vague and ambiguous in itself.  The Patent Laws that attempt to put forth an unambiguous guide for what it takes to get and enforce a patentis no different than ANY OTHER area of law. 

This is because the United States begins with the premise that you have unlimited rights except what is limited by the government (rather than you have no rights except what is specifically granted).  In any event, the law must attempt to account for many/most conceivable situations in order to cover such situations.  In doing this, the wording of the laws must attempt to be unambiguous, and cover the various situations that COULD occur.  This requires lengthy legal code, often awkwardly worded to accomplish that purpose. It may SEEM that the law is unambiguous, however, if you took the time with a good legal dictionary, and read through the law, the regulations, and the Manual of Patent Examining Procedure (MPEP), and studied how the caselaw has interpreted the law, then you would understand the law. An imperfect system- not a broken system...

Attorneys, after attending undergraduate studies (and for registered patent attorneys, undergraduate studies requires studies in a scientific field such as chemistry, biology, engineering), attend law school.  During three years of law school, the attorney learns the basics of law, legal interpretation, and a broad uderstanding of many legal concepts from many legal areas.  This is again necessary, because even if the attorney doesn't practice in many/most of the other areas of law, they must understand at least in the basic sense how the other areas of law impact their practice area, and what implications that the advice they give from their practice area could be impacted by other areas of law.  Then after these three years of study in law school, the attorney begins to practice, where it takes another 2-3 years (for Patent Prosecution) to become proficient.  2-3 years AFTER law school to learn the ropes under the guidance of more experienced attorneys, and delving into the patent laws, the patent regulations and MPEP, to better understand how to apply the law.  But this is no different in the US than in many/most/all other countries of the world.  What you consider to be ambiguous is not ambiguous, but rather just something you don't understand.  Again, we live in an imperfect system, not a broken system. But lack of understanding of the system gives you no right to claim that the patent attorneys that work within the system are out to rip you off, steal your inventions, and just plain out to get you.   
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BobRoberts

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Re: Are Patents worth the paper they are written on?
« Reply #78 on: 01-08-10 at 09:28 am »

Continued...
Inventor A said:
“- our government could do a quicker & better job of protecting our inherent rights, if the financial incentive factor were completely removed or better yet - reversed. Dragging out Intellectual Property matters, should NOT be a money-maker for the Government. In fact, Patents should be completely fashioned and paid for federally, and, it should cost them, not the inventor (as is now the case) - for its delay.”

First of all, you mentioned that you are not looking for a free-ride.  However, this is EXACTLY what you are asking for here... 
Why should the Government have to pay to get your patent rights.  This is so wrong, I don't know where to start.  If the Government is required to pay for your patent rights, why shouldn't the government be required to pay for your business telephone, office supplies, office space, automobile, etc...?  You are asking for a welfare state... Quite troubling...

Yu have no fundamental right to file for patent protection.  You do, at your expense, have a right to try and get patent protection, however, it is not the government's responsibility to pay for those rights... 
You have the right to file for your own patent protection.  You have the right to take years of your life in study to learn how to truly acquire a patent, with a relatively low amount of government fees/expenses for the patent process.  Similarly, of your furnace breaks in the middle if the night, you have the right to fix it yourself, or pay to have it fixed.  If your car breaks down, you again have the right to fix it yourself, or pay to have it fixed.  Why wouldn't you argue that the government should pay for these services as well?  Because you understand one 'system' and no the other?

Inventor A:
“(H) Should the independent inventor try to become overly involved with the formal process they are then referred to as a “troublesome client”. Alternately, if they choose the more passive approach, and try to allow the “professional” attorney to do his job, the client is ultimately forced to make a series of difficult and uncomfortable decisions (for which, they can later be held accountable) - any one of which, can and usually does lead to their self- destruction, protectively speaking.”

What is wrong with personal accountability?   A patent attorney CANNOT tell you how to proceed regarding a particular situation.  The patent attorney can only give you information that you use to make a decision.  Your decision to proceed or not proceed is a business decision.  You decide if you want to take the risk, or not take the risk.  That is not the attorney's job.  So when YOU make that business decision to proceed, you are accountable for that decsion... 

Inventor A said:
“In esence… should you desire involvement - they tend to distance you. Should you desire to be uninvolved - you’re embroiled. The System, then blames the (pre-concocted) disastrous outcome -on YOU! By the way... this is all done quietly, in secret (from the outside world) - in a foreign language… ( which conveniently, only the lawyers themselves, and the PTO - understand) …Patentese !!!
Don’t you think it would be logically appropriate, to have the means to have your “rights” discussed... openly and honestly at any time, & defined in simple language - that is comprehensible and accessible to everyone?”

Attorneys discuss situations with clients, and allow them 'involvement' – They reveive input from the client to prepare a patent draft, send out drafts of the application for review and comment from the client, and to ensure that the application is accurate and complete.  If the client has questions, the attorney answers these questions.   

Just because the client doesn't understand the 'patentese' doesn't mean the system is brokem and the world is out to get the inventor.  It is an imperfect solution to an attempt by the 'system' to account for the almost infinite number of possibilities/circumstances that could arise during patent prosecution. Just because you have not taken the several years of 60 hour weeks to understand the 'system' doesn't mean it is broken.  You have every right to invest the time to do so, if you'd like.  Just like you have every right to learn how to fix your furnace, build your house, or repair your automobile.  It's your choice.   
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BobRoberts

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Re: Are Patents worth the paper they are written on?
« Reply #79 on: 01-08-10 at 09:29 am »

Continued...
Inventor A said:
“Should your disclosure ever be violated or capitalized on by anyone, they... (the procurers of your protection), should take immediate action in defense of their work, reputation, & profession . . .or, should otherwise then be held accountable for whatever eventual negative outcome, or hardship - [ that you their client, may be forced to bear] - ultimately deemed to have been caused by their improper course of action, in protecting you. After all... isn’t that, what Legal malpractice was (originally) aimed to prevent?
If not, what is “legal malpractice insurance” - and why does it exist?”
Again, you appear to be asking for free services here. The price of patent application preparation is to cover the preparation of the patent application, not the enforcement of any patent that issues therefrom. 

It sounds as if you would prefer a 'system' where the price of enforcement was worked into the patent prosecution fee (after all, when you get that 60,000 mile warranty from the auto dealer, this is what has occurred- everyone is paying for that warranty, when only some actually use it)
- If so, your patent just went from $7500 to file, to $275,000 per application- if the attorney is expected to account for the possibility of expending many hours to defend/enforce any possible patent rights that might arise in the future regarding your patent. 

In essence, this means that everyone filing for a patent application is paying for the enforcement rights for the 5-10% of patents that ever really come into dispute/at issue.  The more reasonable solution is to separate the costs from enforcement from that of procuring, and let those who desire to enforce/defend their patents do so at their own cost. 

Inventor A said:
“So… before calling 1-(800)-IDEA...”

This statement speaks a thousand words...  Individuals that use services such as these do so at their own peril. 

I have spent a large amount of time responding/commenting on your “problems” with the patent system.  I contend that any pf the problems you menioned are either not problems, unreasonable requests/expectations on your behalf (like the government or public cover the cost for your patent enforcement/procurement), or the result of an imperfect (not broken) system.   

In my 12-22-09 posts, I discuss the imperfect 'system' that you claim is broken.  If you believe something is broken, you must have a better way of running it.  I challenge you to discuss the points I bring up, regarding when/how much disclosure should be required by the attorney, and many other aspects, and provide a better solution than “give me free service”, or make the government or general public pay for the service I want to receive.

Again, I wonder whether you actual will listen to these words, and arguments, or simply dismiss them as inconsistent with your position, not worthy of your time to respond to (which is code for 'I have no valid argument to really respond to this, so I have to divert from the true issues'), and hurl multiple insults at me for implementing such a system that rips you off and steals your inventions (which I specifically mention, though in a cursory fashion) in above posts...  Again that cursory review calling into question the scope of your patent, and the actual infringement that you clai to have occurred by the vendor you provided a link to- again that I didn't see the infringement that you spoke of.  And, again, if you indeed had incompetent patent counsel, it is your right to sue that counsel, and if you are so confident that the malpractic and wrongs done by all of your past several patent counsel firms was so extreme as you state, then the court would likely award attorney fees and court costs- so you get your money returned, any losses you can prove due to the infringement, and it doesn't end up costing you any money.  Your business decision to finance such a case...   

« Last Edit: 01-08-10 at 09:34 am by BobRoberts »
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ChrisWhewell

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Re: Are Patents worth the paper they are written on?
« Reply #80 on: 01-08-10 at 07:21 pm »

The system is what it is.   I've had ideas "taken" and there was nothing I could do except look back and think that I would have done things differently, but the system is more complex as it might appear at first glance to some.  I think I have a decent "invention" at present and am definitely going to proceed much differently than I had in the past with some others.  The scary part is that different groups working independently do tend to arrive at the same invention at the same point in time, merely because of the availability of info and the state of the art in each field.  So right now there is probably a group somewhere working on what I am.   Moreover, lets say its a photovoltaic cell, in a new configuration with new utility, etc.  As soon as I publish the spec., others will see it and perhaps one of them will think "what if we replace the sodium oxide with F2O and add acetic acid as the electrolyte?"  They may do that and come up with an even better rendition of my photovoltaic, that renders my own invention effectively obsolete !!  Indeed, without my disclosure, maybe they wouldn't have come up with it, but chances are that someone else will eventually anyway.   Every art is different, in semiconductors I'm thinking its best if one can keep their metals deposition info proprietary while obtaining some patent protection, there could be competitive advantage possible.

Back to any point I might have in this, each art is different and individual inventors face a tough and complex system which without some tough "learning experiences" might find it otherwise impossible to comprehend.   On the other hand I know of several inventors who've done very well with their inventions, without any hitches.   An old prof of mine in a business strategy course kept asking the class one day for the last element of success on his three-point list and kept saying "no" to the answers provided by each student who raised their hand for three minutes before divulging the final secret to success in the business universe to us as something called "luck".  That's 1/3 of what I paid my hard-earned money to learn.  The system isn't perfect, but that big wheel keeps spinning.  Understanding its strenghts, weaknesses, and what it can do for a given person is something that takes time to learn, IMO, and is best learned through meetings with a creative, experienced and knowledgeable-patent practitioner.   I have one client who comes to see me regularly to just talk and he's miles ahead of his befuddled competition.   I approach each client with the same open, zealous, etc mind.   Some are less receptive to learning much about the patent process than others.  I'd estimate only about a third of the clients out there are keen on taking time to learn the system even a little bit.  The ones who do are great to deal with.  In the corporate scenario, dealing with the same inventors over years of time is quite advantageous, becuase you can train them so they turn in beautiful disclosures, which are a pleasure to write up.


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Chris Whewell
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InventorA.

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Re: Are Patents worth the paper they are written on?
« Reply #81 on: 01-11-10 at 10:12 am »

Mr Roberts...

Given the fact I have not posted on here for nearly a month now
why would you now suddenly present this 3-volume book you have just
written, (couple it with a "challenge") and expect me to suddenly respond,
when you, yourself, haven't even responded to my last lengthy response
to your last posted attack? (You may note that I even responded privately
so as to spare you [and the offending party] the obvious embarrassment of
the situational events as enumerated therein.)  I gave you nearly a month,
& posted a message to check your "PM" which I assume you do daily, already.

Bob,
if you would spend one-tenth the time, (& a hundredth of the verbiage)
in effort to ACTUALLY HELP SOMEONE (HONEST) "PROTECT" WHAT'S THEIRS,
you might become a much happier person... than you obviously are right now.


WHAT (and WHO...)
THE HELL ARE YOU TRYING SO HARD TO CONVINCE?  (...yourself, possibly?)


I've spent over 45,000 concentrated hours on my innovations already!
(a good deal of which... was spent on my trying to undo the horrific mess you
"legalists" INTENTIONALLY made of my numerous clearly-defined disclosures!!!)

NOW... you expect me to spend ANOTHER 45,000 hours reading your diatribe,
only to suggest to me that I spend yet another 45,000 to learn your trade ??

Here's the deal:

      I INVENT.

      YOU PROTECT ME.
 
      (IF YOU DO) -  I PAY YOU.

      IF YOU TRY TO PULL THIS SORT OF CRAP
      ON ME...   YOU - AND/OR THE ENTIRE CIVILIZED WORLD,

      WILL NEVER HEAR THE END OF IT!  NOW, GO WRITE ANOTHER BOOK!       
   (or... better yet read that month-old private message I took time to write)
   

Love always,
- ARNSTEIN.

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                            Follow the yellow brick road.
« Last Edit: 01-11-10 at 10:21 am by InventorA. »
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