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[Ecclesiastes]

OK, the facts. 

T80-90 ranked school in DC-metro area.  Began school in evening program while working at local law firm for 1.3 years - that is until a fall 2008 layoff.  Since then, just evening school until May final exams.  Ended up with a 2.83 GPA overall and a 70% 1E class rank (!).  Incredibly disappointed and a bit surprised.  Ph.D. Microbiology.  Registered Patent Agent. 39 years old. 15 years scientific research experience.  Stressing big tyme whether to continue paying 50K/year for two more years of pain at a not-so-great IP school or just drop out.  Total debt likely $160K by 2011.  Hard time finding prosecution work - even voluntary work.

Maybe just be a Patent Agent for rest of life? As wife is making $$, I get absolutely no breaks on school loan interest rates currently accruing interest.  Not many other career options left as this was my career plan for quite a while.

Even assuming I do "better" next year, will those poor 1st year grades haunt me forever?

thoughful and honest comments appreciated. I do not necessarily need the "hang in there" speech nor the "rely on your wife's job" advice.  I need to work to stay sane.

thx all.

[dablueman]

If it was me I'd think about other options because 2.83/70% after only doing the evening program (which I assume isn't a full load) seems to lead to the conclusion that the law isn't for you. With a Ph.D. in Microbiology and 15 years research at age 39 I'd really consider going back to what I know and what I'm good at. Maybe working for a pharmaceutical company or teaching. At your age I'm not sure that you'll be able to make more over time with the J.D. than with the Ph.D. alone to justify the extra 100K+ you'll be spending over the next two years when a job at a large firm isn't likely.

I know a lot of ph.D. biologist in the pharma industry and most are making more than the average lawyer after 10 years. Again, that's just what I'd be moving toward if I was in your position.

[UVAgal4]

That's a tough decision.  I'm not really sure how important 1st year grades are to employers, especially for a candidate with a Phd and many years of experience. It seems to me that the latter would be more significant.

[DogDayPM 9er9er9er]

I tend to agree with UVAgal4 - if you bring the grades up and end up in decent position, I doubt many employers will worry about what your 1L (or 1-E) grades were.  I went full time but took many evening division classes and a lot of my classmates in the evening section had Hyde/Jekyll experiences with respect to 1st year vs. 2nd year grades.

I am struggling with one of your comments, though.  Maybe I'm out of touch, but why on earth will you be borrowing $160K???  What is actual tuition each year?  You mentioned $50K which is astounding, given you also mention the school's ranking as T80-90 (or I am really out of touch, as I say).  If non-resident, can you establish residency?  What about jumping to a cheaper school? (don't know if that's an available option).

In any event, bear in mind that school FinAid offices are always willing to certify that you "need" much more than you really do (IMHO).  You know it'll just be an albatross around your neck later - how small can you make it?

[Majmun]

I am struggling with one of your comments, though.  Maybe I'm out of touch, but why on earth will you be borrowing $160K???  What is actual tuition each year?  You mentioned $50K which is astounding, given you also mention the school's ranking as T80-90 (or I am really out of touch, as I say).

40K+ per year tuition is fairly common these days and that doesn't include fees, books, health insurance or room  and board.

[DogDayPM 9er9er9er]

40K+ per year tuition is fairly common these days....

At tier-3, DC-area law schools? 

[Majmun]

40K+ per year tuition is fairly common these days....

At tier-3, DC-area law schools? 

Sure. That's a fairly typical sticker price at most  private schools and a handful of state schools.  Cost and ranking are pretty much unrelated.

[MYK]

40K+ per year tuition is fairly common these days....

At tier-3, DC-area law schools? 

Sure. That's a fairly typical sticker price at most  private schools and a handful of state schools.  Cost and ranking are pretty much unrelated.

Yup.  IIRC, Golden Gate advertises an annual cost of about $65,000 (including rent, food, etc. in San Francisco).  $200,000 (once you throw in a bar review class) for a tier-4.

[DogDayPM 9er9er9er]

Yup.  IIRC, Golden Gate advertises an annual cost of about $65,000 (including rent, food, etc. in San Francisco).  $200,000 (once you throw in a bar review class) for a tier-4.

I'm still looking for what was originally specified.  I'm not arguing against the proposition that many law schools are expensive.

I'm just not, in my vast ignorance, aware that it's fairly common amongst tier-3 schools in the DC area.

[bald & chained]

so bottom 1/3 from Catholic isn't great, but you do have 1.3 years of experience, which is good. I assume you are looking for a day job again? If you get interviews, do the grades come up at all?  They didn't really come up when I was interviewing for a tech spec position back in the day.

[Majmun]

Yup.  IIRC, Golden Gate advertises an annual cost of about $65,000 (including rent, food, etc. in San Francisco).  $200,000 (once you throw in a bar review class) for a tier-4.

I'm still looking for what was originally specified.  I'm not arguing against the proposition that many law schools are expensive.

I'm just not, in my vast ignorance, aware that it's fairly common amongst tier-3 schools in the DC area.

If he goes to catholic then total COA, not including room and board, is ~$120,000.

[bald & chained]

120K sounds about right.  Plus living expenses.  Don't know why some posters doubt the number.  T3 schools without scholarships cost just as much as T1 schools, but you get a lot fewer exit options.

[trustme]

Ecclesiastes,
With some persistence you will probably be able to pull your grades up. Like you, I started going to law school evenings and working during the day. The second and third year classes are often not curved and the classes are often smaller - giving you a chance to get to know your professors. I went from a 3.1 to a final GPA of 3.45. That might be enough to get you cum laude. And with hard work, you might be able to write onto law review. And your background is pretty decent, and you at least have some patent experience. And a lot of folks I've talked to have said that they anticipate the hiring freeze to start thawing in about 6 months.

But remember - there are three big factors working against you
(1) You're having trouble finding work in what I think is the biggest patent prosection market in the US. (2) And law school pedigree is very, very important for the big employers.
(3) I hate to bring this up, but I think your age also might be working against you. Employers will look at you and think that you might have priorities other than getting all those billable hours in. Also, they might think you carry a sense of entitlement.


I had to make the same decision 3 years ago and I stuck it out. I am not so sure I made the right decision, but there it is. It's not a nice thing to have all this non-dischargeable student debt hanging over your head and to be unemployed while your wife becomes angry and bitter over the apparently useless JD. I don't know if you have kids, or if you want kids, but your wife might not want to support you forever!

And remember, if you decide to go back to your old career, you can do it a lot easier now than in another 2-3 years. You would need a pretty good story as to why you didn't get a job in patent law.

We never know at the time we make a decision whether the decision will be correct - all we can do is to gather as much information as we can and then act on it. Things usually work out. At least that's what I keep telling myself.

Hope this helps.

[lukertin]

Do you really want to be a lawyer?  Questions, questions, there are no answers.