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[Elkie]

I am a couple months short of completing one miserable year at the PTO. I examine in the electrical art and have done well as an examiner (first promotion after 6 months). I am currently studying for the patent bar and have been applying for agent/technical advisor positions for the past 3-4 months, but have had no luck. Shall I wait until after I have passed the bar before I apply to more firms?  I have a BS a couple years research experience and good publications and my GPA is almost perfect. It just seems almost impossible that I would find a job at a DC/NoVA firm given that I am competing with experienced layers that have been laid off. Any advice on locating potential employers? Should I just abandon all hope and resign myself to being miserable for another couple years?
Thanks much

[klaviernista]

With a BS (even in EE), you will have trouble landing a tech spec job.  Every technical specialist I have known has at least a Ph.D., and sometimes post doc experience to boot.

That is not to say you couldn't apply for a "student associate" position with some of the larger firms (e.g, Sterne Kessler, Oblon, Finnegn, Fish, etc.), but you should be prepared to go to law school.

While being an examiner isn;t the most fun or exciting job on earth, it does pay the bills, and pretty well at that.  Given the economy, I would look at your situation as being a glass half full.  As you said, you are competing with laid off lawyers, who probably have an equivalent degree.  Your PTO experience will distinguish you some, but not as much as it would in a normal economy.

Good luck to you.  Things are ugly out there.  For the time being, enjoy the PTO job as much as you can.  There is always time to move on later.

[anon30]

I agree with the above poster.  It's a relly tough market even for attorneys, and you don't want to jump from the PTO to a firm only to get laid off 3 months later.  I've never seen it this bad.  Right now, patent attorneys are applying for examiner jobs at the PTO.

Stay put until the economy improves. 

[Elkie]

aw if 'boring' and "not exciting" was the only thing wrong i'd be skipping down the street whistiling a merry tune. As it is, I dream of roasting in the fiery pits of hell and wake up to find (to my disappointment) that it was only a nightmare.

But I hear you, I should be glad to have a job. And I am...really

Any advice on landing a patent agent position? Given that there are so many job seekers, what sorts of things might set one apart?
Langauage abilities? cheerful disposition?

[Elkie]

Right now, patent attorneys are applying for examiner jobs at the PTO.

Wow. really? sigh. okay.  

[mk1023]

I've met at least four attorneys turned new examiners (although I only think one of them had any real IP experience before starting at the PTO).

IMO the only good way to leave the PTO for a firm is as a student associate (possibility of big $$$ down the road). Patent agents make roughly the same as examiners and your supervisors at a law firm will care more about your work. Examining is fairly secure employment and can be ridiculously easy if your quality is good and you work fast.

If you're miserable as an examiner I'm not sure why you think moving on to a law firm will make your life any better.

[Lxw]

If you're miserable as an examiner I'm not sure why you think moving on to a law firm will make your life any better.

He's probably under the misguided belief that working at a law firm will get him laid more often, because women at bars will mistake him for a rich lawyer, whereas people tend to assume that government employees aren't paid much.

[stuffball]

In my experience, you'll make considerably more as an agent than as an examiner.  I left the PTO to be a student associate, but was a patent agent before I started law school.  My salary jumped by around 35% and went higher during law school.  Also, if your ultimate goal is to be a patent attorney, you're better off getting law firm experience on your resume.   PTO experience is good too, but you'll be paid a lot more as a junior associate if you've worked your way through law school at the firm.

You'll also get laid more often and by better looking women.

[Ordinary skill]

Sounds like maybe an SPE issue? Would switching art units make life any better?

[JD]

"If you're miserable as an examiner I'm not sure why you think moving on to a law firm will make your life any better."

Being allowed to, and actually being expected to, use your brain generally makes people happier.  IMO.

[Elkie]

Sounds like maybe an SPE issue? Would switching art units make life any better?

Yeah, he's a really good guy, but unfortunately good guys dont always make good bosses. I've asked primary examiners about the possibility of changing art units and the general consensus is that it is isn't really possible.

[joejoecor]

I worked for two years as an examiner Elkie in the refrigeration art and loved it. I was fired just prior to the two year mark for quality as their excuse. Since I am an EE with production 95% they never posed the idea of a transfer. If you do not get enough out of the thrill of finding that perverbial needle in a haystack to make up for the hours or even days of searching the job can be mundane and unsatisfying. I am treading the waters in the private sector by calling firms I have encountered while an examiner and found a few with a strong interest to use me for searching until I pass the exam and then moresome after that. I have no tremendous atributes and just an EE. Maybe my strong suit is an EE with extensive mechanical searching being that refrigeration is mainly mechanical and thermo by nature. I am actually trying to get my job back, preferable in an electrical art. I can see why you might not like it. They are the gestapo when it comes to you pester primaries with to many questions. They are so incredibly gestopo when it has anything to do with pendency issues. This can put a serious damper on the social dynamics in your art unit and others you frequent. At a law firm the Gestapo element will wane substantially, at least I can only hope, since I am now traveling down that road. My nature is sopping with inquistiveness (to the third power) making it difficult to accept the culture at the patent office. Good luck.

[georgetown_1L]

why did the pto fire you exactly?

[speed51133]

I worked for two years as an examiner Elkie in the refrigeration art and loved it. I was fired just prior to the two year mark for quality as their excuse. Since I am an EE with production 95% they never posed the idea of a transfer. If you do not get enough out of the thrill of finding that perverbial needle in a haystack to make up for the hours or even days of searching the job can be mundane and unsatisfying. I am treading the waters in the private sector by calling firms I have encountered while an examiner and found a few with a strong interest to use me for searching until I pass the exam and then moresome after that. I have no tremendous atributes and just an EE. Maybe my strong suit is an EE with extensive mechanical searching being that refrigeration is mainly mechanical and thermo by nature. I am actually trying to get my job back, preferable in an electrical art. I can see why you might not like it. They are the gestapo when it comes to you pester primaries with to many questions. They are so incredibly gestopo when it has anything to do with pendency issues. This can put a serious damper on the social dynamics in your art unit and others you frequent. At a law firm the Gestapo element will wane substantially, at least I can only hope, since I am now traveling down that road. My nature is sopping with inquistiveness (to the third power) making it difficult to accept the culture at the patent office. Good luck.

you may find this interesting...I got hired by the PTO as a replacment to this guy that got fired. Im sitting at his old desk right now.
the spe we have is VERY VERY picky with attention to details. you must reject everything, andyou have to find solid references that really detail every claimed element. this sounds normal, but the fact is if you cant allow anything, its almost impossible. im struggling now to keep numbers up. ive rejected like 60 applications at this point, and no allowances. some of the rejections were total BS, and took like 2 months to do, and have like 5 references for some claims. its not an easy job, by any means. the SPE really can make or break you. my spe tells me that he/she knows other spes let things allow or lets actions through, but she wont.

trust me, refrigeration examining sucks. its a nightmare.

[horsechute]

Joejoecor, best of luck. By leaving the PTO now, they are really doing you a favor. Even if you had started with a laidback Primary/SPE, the day would have ultimately come when you would have gotten people you had to work with like the ones you used to. At that point, you would have had 5 - 10 years working for the PTO, and nothing to show for it experience-wise when you left. As bad as the economy is right now, you are much better off getting out early. I have seen this sort of thing happen many, many times, and when people leave, they always ask why the did not leave sooner. With only 1 or 2 execeptions out of over 100 people I know with similar anecdotes, they were all exceptionally happy to have left. However, in some cases, they had stayed too long, which made it difficult, if not impossible, for them to find a new job.

Best of luck,

HC