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[PatentDraftsman]

Yesterday, (11/12/04) I discovered this forum.

I was surprised when a Search for the word “drawings” resulted: “Sorry, not matches were found”.

I’ve been successfully producing patent drawings for more than 30 years. I’ve migrated from pen and ink to the latest technical illustration technologies.

If you have any questions regarding patent drawings, I’ll be happy to offer my experience and opinions.

At my desk,

PatentDraftsman

[JimIvey]

I'll ask one ... two.

1.  I'm seeing more and more drawings with shading (e.g., screen captures) be accepted and published as formal drawings, e.g., on an issued patent.  On one of mine, the patent issued with the informal drawings rather than the formal drawings that we submitted (representing not insignificant cost to the client).  The odd thing (as if that weren't odd enough) is that there were two applications sharing identical sets of drawings, the other issued with the formal drawings.

Has there been a relaxation of the requirements for formal drawings?

2.  It's been a while since I looked as design patent applications.  Can they be filed with informal drawings?

Many thanks.

[PatentDraftsman]

JimIvey:

Great questions/observations.

Your first question regarding shading is a grey area. (No pun intended.) I’ve prepared formal, informal and provisional drawings using screen captures. And, at the attorney's request, I’ve also hand (computer vector) traced screen capture content and reset the type – just to eliminate all grey tones. Unfortunately, this is one of those areas where the appropriate solution seems to depend on the particular examiner conducting the review.

That said, here’s another twist (or possible solution). I believe some attorneys submit screen captures as photographs. This way, the grey tones (or color picked up in the screen captures) are reviewed as photos rather than drawings.

Your second question is easier. Sure, informal design drawings are quite common. However, if you submit informal design drawings, you’re asking for trouble. It’s almost impossible not to introduce new matter while formalizing informal design drawings. And, the inconsistency between views becomes apparent when preparing the formal drawings. So, if the draftsman follows the informal drawings exactly, the odds are there will be ambiguity between the views. If the draftsman corrects the problems inherent with the informal drawings, the examiner is likely to scream “new matter, new matter”. My advice is to submit high quality accurate formal design drawings to begin with. Even with all that going for you, the examiner is sure to complain about something (shading, contours, jots and tittles, etc.).

Hope this helps,

[JimIvey]

Thanks!  That helps.

Re screen captures.  I still file informal drawings and wait for them to complain.  Most are considered good enough for publication of the application.  We prepare formal drawings when requested by the PTO.

Interesting point on design applications.  It makes sense since there's really no text on which to rely for what's "material" and what's not.

Thanks again.

[PatentDraftsman]

Thanks!  That helps.
......We prepare formal drawings when requested by the PTO.

Thanks again.

Many attorneys take this approach. It’s my opinion that the formal drawings should be done upfront for many reasons.

With contemporary technologies, 90% of the time it’s just as easy (and cost effective) to prepare formal drawings from the “get go”. Also, readily available source materials (engineering drawings, photos, sketches, prototypes) have a tendency to get lost over time and become unavailable when it’s time to prepare the formal drawings. If the formal drawings are done upfront, the draftsman can ask for additional source materials that maybe harder to procure (or impossible) a year or so later. And finally, it is my experience that it’s more cost effective to do the formal drawings upfront. If you’re interested, I can support this argument with additional details.

[Jonathan]

Good topic. Patent drawings are such an integral part of the patent process but I rarily see much discussion on them.

Here is my laundry list of observations, please feel free to add your opinion or experience:

When the publication rules for newly submitted patent app. figures went into affect in early 2001, many people at my firm interpreted it to mean that informal figures would only be accepted to secure a filing date and that formal figures would be required soon after filing. For example, via a Notice of Missing Parts. It generally turned out that the patent office would only require new figures if the informals violated the margin rules. As a general rule, we generally will always obtain formal figures before an applicaiton is filed.

Regarding informal figures issuing into patents, it has been my experience that the figure rules are applied rather unevenly and is rather dependent on the Examiner and various other patent office personnel. I have had the unfortunate experience of not noticing an informal figure and it made it into the issued patent. As a result, it is another thing on my issue fee checklist to make sure they are in order.


I have also seen notices from the patent office requiring the submission of formal figures before they would issue a patent.

Yet another experience is an Examiner that required me to submit formal figures in response to an Office Action. This particular application was filed, with informal figures, sometime in 1999 and an Applicant can request for drawing objections to be held in abeyance until a Notice of Allowance was sent, for applications filed back then. I think the magical date is for applications filed before the publication rules went into effect - January 2001 or so. The Examiner  didn't want to budge on this one, so I just complied with his wishes since I was pretty sure of this application going to issue and I would have obtained formal figures at some later point.

Regarding draftsperson rates, what do you consider to be reasonable? My preferred drafting company (Patents Ink of Baltimore) charges about $75 per drawing sheet on average. I think this is on the more expensive side. However, they do consistently excellent work with fast turnaround. I once tried out a cheaper drafting company but was rather unsatisfied for a variety of reasons.

[PatentDraftsman]

Good topic. Patent drawings are such an integral       part of the patent process but I rarily see much discussion on them.

Here is my laundry list of observations, please feel free to add your opinion or experience:

jkudla says: When the publication rules for newly submitted patent app. figures went into affect in early 2001, many people at my firm interpreted it to mean that informal figures would only be accepted to secure a filing date and that formal figures would be required soon after filing.

PatentDraftsman says: I remember it like it was yesterday. I received a dozen calls from attorneys wondering how to interpret the new rules. Bottom line, it seemed like another good reason to (if possible) submit formal drawings to begin with.

jkudla says:  For example, via a Notice of Missing Parts. It generally turned out that the patent office would only require new figures if the informals violated the margin rules. As a general rule, we generally will always obtain formal figures before an applicaiton is filed.

PatentDraftsman says: Margins! Yikes! And what about them blurry lines? Sometimes I’ll draw outside the lines (margins) just to keep the examiner from noticing “real” problems with the drawings. (Only kidding!)

jkudla says: Regarding informal figures issuing into patents, it has been my experience that the figure rules are applied rather unevenly and is rather dependent on the Examiner and various other patent office personnel.

PatentDraftsman says: Don’t get me started!!!

jkudla says: I have had the unfortunate experience of not noticing an informal figure and it made it into the issued patent.

PatentDraftsman says: I laugh out loud every time that happens. (Consequently, I do a lot of laughing.) However, it’s no laughing matter when you have to spend your time (and money) kicking around unimportant minutia with a stubborn examiner.

jkudla says: I have also seen notices from the patent office requiring the submission of formal figures before they would issue a patent.  

PatentDraftsman says: I’m not up to speed with the attorney’s responsibility, but I thought formal drawings were always required before issue.

jkudla says:  Yet another experience is an Examiner that required me to submit formal figures in response to an Office Action. This particular application was filed, with informal figures, sometime in 1999 and an Applicant can request for drawing objections to be held in abeyance until a Notice of Allowance was sent, for applications filed back then. I think the magical date is for applications filed before the publication rules went into effect - January 2001 or so. The Examiner  didn't want to budge on this one, so I just complied with his wishes since I was pretty sure of this application going to issue and I would have obtained formal figures at some later point.

PatentDraftsman says: Sometimes it’s better just to comply. You’re lucky the examiner didn’t ask you to stand on one foot and howl at the moon. Whatever it takes…….

jkudla says: Regarding draftsperson rates, what do you consider to be reasonable? My preferred drafting company (Patents Ink of Baltimore) charges about $75 per drawing sheet on average. I think this is on the more expensive side. However, they do consistently excellent work with fast turnaround. I once tried out a cheaper drafting company but was rather unsatisfied for a variety of reasons.

PatentDraftsman says: The rates you quoted sound very reasonable. I suggest that you prepare your client spend an average of $500 for the drawings. Of course the actual price can range from much less to much more. But generally speaking an “average” design or utility application (in my experience) should cost about $500 (usually a little less).

PatentDraftsman

[JimIvey]

Yet another experience is an Examiner that required me to submit formal figures in response to an Office Action. ... The Examiner  didn't want to budge on this one, so I just complied with his wishes since I was pretty sure of this application going to issue and I would have obtained formal figures at some later point.

I seem to see this one when there's some error in the numbering of elements of the figures (either in the figures themselves or in the specification such as an incorrectly numbered reference).  For example, the drawings show a widget 10 and a dooh hickey 20 and the specification refers to a widget 10 and a dooh hickey 12.  It's an easy fix, but the error is one that could conceivably lead to confusion rather than simply a problem with letter height or shading.

As for filing with formal drawings, for some of my clients, deferring $500 is significant.  

Re Notices to File Missing Part, I believe they were listing formal drawings as required in the response for a while.  The PTO appears to have stopped making that requirement in the Notice to File Missing Parts.

Thanks for all the input.

Regards.

[PatentDraftsman]

As for filing with formal drawings, for some of my clients, deferring $500 is significant.  

Certainly.....

And the key word in your comment regarding rates is "some".

Like I said:

PatentDraftsman says: The rates you quoted sound very reasonable. I suggest that you prepare your client spend an average of $500 for the drawings. Of course the actual price can range from much less to much more. But generally speaking an “average” design or utility application (in my experience) should cost about $500 (usually a little less).

I've studied the wages for patent draftsmen and technical illustrators. As president of the ISTI (International Society for Technical Illustrators) and a member of the STC (Society for Technical Communication) I've been asked many times to suggest a reasonable per hour rate for technical drawings. Of course, as in all fields there are many considerations including education, experience, proficiency, skill, geographic location, etc., etc.

At the end of the day, a skilled and proficient patent draftsman or technical illustrator should realize $40 - $60 per hr. It’s easy to imagine an illustrator spending 10 hrs on a patent application (including client conference if applicable, information management, production, invoicing, etc.). So, 10hrs X $50 per seems plenty fair to me.

PatentDraftsman

[james yang]

Where are you located patentdraftman?  and, do you accept work?

[conleymon]

hi, I'm very interested in patent drawing, but I'm totally new to it. I have gotten the guide to making patent drawings from the us pto site, but before I start reading it, I really would like to know more about how I can find work, what qualifications I need, what's the best way to learn how to do it, is it secure work and things like that. May I ask you for any advice you might be able to offer?

thank you much,
conleymon

[JimIvey]

If I were considering a new vendor for drawings, I'd want to see sample work fairly closely resembling the kinds of drawings I'd need and then would look at prices.

The thing is to be in the list of vendors considered when a practitioner is looking for a new one.  Personally, I'd probably start with people who contribute in a forum like this one, if they seem to know what they're doing.  I might try a search engine, or perhaps even ads at a site like this one, but I'd be a little afraid of too much "noise" and not enough "signal."

For the record, I'm happy with my current vendor.  I hope those thoughts help.

Regards.

[StefanL]

I belive that if an application "looks well-prepared" the examiner is more likely to think that the application is "serious" and thereby unconsciously favour the application.

[StefanL]

yes I meant subconsciously

[Greg L. Martinez]

When doing the spec and the drawings, I often label similar elements with letter and numbers (i.e. 10a, 10b, etc.).  My question is whether or not anyone has had problems with this in US or foreign filings.  I have not, but some attorneys I have done work for swear up and down that its inappropriate.  

Also, has anyone had any problems with lead lines.  For example, the MPEP states that a floating arrow signifies a section and a lead line touching an element signifies a surface.  I've seen attorneys ignore this convention and they seem to get away with it on a regular basis.  It seems like this convention is not strictly enforced.  

Thanks in advance.  

Greg L. Martinez
SolidStateIP