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[dz]

I personally know a law school student who will be getting $130K starting salary in a mountain west mid-sized city.  The medium housing price in that area is only in the $200s.  Apparently, the firm gets a lot of business from California and those clients pay "California rate" even though the firm is away from the major, expensive IP markets.

Since patent is almost entirely federal practice, theoretically you can get clients anywhere in the world if you can get to them.  Is it a trend that many clients are now looking away from the expensive California, Chicago, New York, DC areas and finding firms in middle America more attractive?  I know most of the best law school graduates gravitate to the coastal metro areas, but is middle America catching up?

Any input is appreciated.

[T_Hill]

I certainly hope so. I'm in San Diego right now, and although it's beautiful, it's also VERY EXPENSIVE! The wife and I are mostly here because we're hoping to have a better chance of finding a patent job, but I would not be opposed to Colorado if they had the same jobs available. (Not sure if I could say goodbye to the year-round sun though. So nice here!)

I can see why law firm location would become less of an issue. Like you say, it's mostly federal, so state certification is not much of an issue. And as communication technology increases (email, scanning, video conferencing, increase in bandwidth, increase in digital security), firm location should only become less and less important.

[MYK]

I was sorta planning on moving to Thailand until the PTO reinforced their anti-offshoring protections.  There's nothing like renting a villa (with maid) for only $400/month for reducing costs.

[Jonathan]

If you remotely connect to a computer in the US, from a foreign country, to write a patent application, is that really an example of offshoring? (tongue in cheek, etc..    )

[T_Hill]

Ha, tongue in cheek, but true. What's the difference? If you're doing everything electronically, what does it matter where you're located? Is it offshoring to work on a patent application while in-flight over the Atlantic Ocean? Is it offshoring to go on vacation to Singapore and do some patent work while you're there?

[dz]

Ha, tongue in cheek, but true. What's the difference? If you're doing everything electronically, what does it matter where you're located? Is it offshoring to work on a patent application while in-flight over the Atlantic Ocean? Is it offshoring to go on vacation to Singapore and do some patent work while you're there?

I don't know this for a fact, so I am shooting from my hip here:

1) Domestic clients look for firms that are close to them (aside from the word of mouth factor), so the firms in major IP markets get a leg up because they are closer to the clients.
2) International clients look to NY, DC, California, Chicago firms because of their prominent presence in the IP market.

But if middle America's smaller firms can convince the clients that they can do an equally good job while charging the clients less money, then those firms will be able to take many clients away from the major firms in the coastal areas.  More clients, more income, higher salary for the attorneys in those middle America firms.  There is probably no sense in charging the clients NY-DC rates.  Otherwise, why should the clients use you?

That convincing part may be the difficult thing to do.

[MYK]

Chicago is pretty cheap compared to DC/NY/CA, especially where real estate is concerned, which is where a lot of law firm overhead goes.  If you include the further-out suburbs like Gurnee or Algonquin, overhead costs aren't any worse than in Boise, ID or Charlotte, NC.

Having an office in a downtown skyscraper is just so 1990s, but I guess a lot of biglaw firms feel obligated.

[landonew]

Chicago is pretty cheap compared to DC/NY/CA, especially where real estate is concerned, which is where a lot of law firm overhead goes.  If you include the further-out suburbs like Gurnee or Algonquin, overhead costs aren't any worse than in Boise, ID or Charlotte, NC.

Having an office in a downtown skyscraper is just so 1990s, but I guess a lot of biglaw firms feel obligated.

Possible that clients perception about the quality of advocacy is partially dependant on the firms personna?  Even corporate clients want their council to appear "scary" in their big downtown offices perhaps.  Whether or not the fee is reflective of the quality in representation is subjective I assume.

[jolavoie]

I agree with your hypotheses... however, how about getting back to the original question of the thread.

Anyone care to pipe up regarding salaries in various regions of the country? I'd namely like to hear about NY/DC/Boston. I know Chicago and CA have big markets, but I just don't see myself moving that far away 

[eslifer]

I would recommend you don't worry about initial salaries, although my understanding is that New York and DC can pay well.  Once you get a few years of experience behind you, you will then be able to control your career much better.  I have done civil litigation, and have been trying to break into patent law for more than 6 months after passing the patent bar in April.  I am now looking to return to civil litigation, because I don't have the experience that the many open jobs want, and haven't found anyone to give me a chance to get my foot in the door.  (I'm in a bit of a different situation in that I need to stay in the Philly area for family reasons.)  If you're young, just get the experience where you can and let the rest fall into place later.

[Mat1234567]

eslifer, Were you looking for prosecution or litigation?  It seems like your experience with Civil Litigation, if substantial and  coupled with solid trial experiece, would put you in good stead for a litigation position.

I am in the same boat in a way, but a buddy and I, who has lots of prosecution experience are starting a firm in Florida.

[eslifer]

I was looking for either, actually.  Although I do have several jury trials in my experience, I've been told that they want either prosecution experience first, or high dollar commercial litigation experience, which I don't have.

And why couldn't you have started this firm 15 years ago so I could make use of it while I went to law school at UM? lol

[Mat1234567]

Hey, I wish I had but my buddy was working at the State Department.  He got a LLM in IP at GW and an EE degree and prosecuted for a number of years.  I was a BSCHE with industrail experience, got a degree from a tier 1 law school but I have trying tort cases including products liablility. med mal, construction and other difficult stuff for the last umpteen years.

In any event, hang in there and I will try to do the same.  I doubt that many patent lawyers have my trial experience or my buddy's acedimic qualifications so we will see what happends.  It seems that your civil litigation experience and patent bar would land you a job but what do I know.

Why did you want to make the change anyway? 

[eslifer]

Figured it would allow me to actually make some use of my engineering degree (ME), and the pay is a lot better.  Also knew that there aren't that many patent attorneys.  What I didn't realize at the time was that, whether intentional or not, patent firms make it difficult for someone to break into the field, or so it seems.  I realize that part of the problem is that they often pay entry level patent attorneys ridiculous money, and that unlike in many areas of the law new patent attorneys aren't really able to justify that salary and make the firm money for up to two years.  But if the subject area is under represented, then training more rather than fewer new lawyers would seem to make more sense.  Set up a pay structure so the first 2 years still make good money, but not the outrageous starting salaries that seem to be out there today.  Then, once they have the experience to be able to earn those salaries and make the firm money, those salaries can be raised accordingly.  As it is now, at least in the Philly area, the patent boutiques start attorneys at the same rates as the large national firms here. 

Unfortunately, I don't see being able to get my foot in the door, and will probably end up back in civil litigation.  And I graduated from a "Tier 1" law school (but how many aren't?) along with a top engineering school.  Oh well.

[Mat1234567]

One of your problems is that you are confined to your geographical area.  It seems that a number of Patent lawyers did not go to major law schools.  In any event, I wish you luck.  I did not realize the starting salaries were so high for patent lawyers.  If you want in that bad, why not tell the firms you are willing to work for lot less.