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(Message started by: underdoginventor on Oct 5th, 2006, 5:26pm)

Title: Need help with Patent Infringement
Post by underdoginventor on Oct 5th, 2006, 5:26pm
I am an independent inventor who has spent most of all my money patents.  2 of them.  My product has been market tested by a large company who is saying they will take on the product this year.  While waiting on this company two other companies whom I had earlier submitted packages to came out with my product or idea.  They are much larger than the honest company I am dealing with.  I am afraid this is going to close the legitimate deal because of the possible infringement. This product is beind sold in Wal Mart, Home Depot, and on the internet directly by the company.  I am scared to call them because I have been warned I can be sued, my patent will be fought over, and I just do not know what to do.  Money is gone, liscense deal in works, good news or bad news......  Web sites say it can take an average of $500000.00 to fight infringement.  I am not making this product yet.  Is there anyone out there who actually works on contingency cases and does not advertise that they do.  I have not even gotten to submit my information to the ones I have found on the internet for contingency.   Looking for help to get on or off of this damn thing they call patents and protection.  More than willing to pay for the services if collected or if liscense deal goes through.  

Title: Re: Need help with Patent Infringement
Post by JimIvey on Oct 5th, 2006, 7:21pm
If you can share the patent numbers with me (probably best in private -- unless you don't mind tipping off the "targets"), I'll see if I can do anything.  My contacts are primarily in computer technology, but I can ask around.

Regards.

Title: Re: Need help with Patent Infringement
Post by Bill Richards on Oct 5th, 2006, 7:44pm
I know a highly-experienced patent litigator who might be interested in taking your case.  Please contact me off-line.

Title: Re: Need help with Patent Infringement
Post by rougie on Jul 29th, 2007, 8:21am
Hello,

I don't beleive what I am reading in your post!

So what is one to do to sell his/her product without getting the idea stolen from big corporations.....   build it and sell it from China !?!?!?!?!?!?!?

The reason I sympathize with you, is that I might run into the same situation.... Patents should protect us in the sense that the lawyer firm that drew up the patent should defend us based on the punitive damages they can collect from the the adversary. (In other words let the firm take some risk in all this... as their patent services don't really com cheap!). But I guess this would be too convinient for inventors.... so then what's the use for a small guy to get a patent... So I guess In this case a patent is worth zero!

Regards Robert

Title: Re: Need help with Patent Infringement
Post by JimIvey on Jul 30th, 2007, 8:49am
First of all, there are firms that take on patent litigation on contingency (share of the proceeds).  Of course, the quality of your patent matters.

Second, it's generally not advisable for the attorney who prepared the patent application and achieved issuance of the patent to litigate the same patent.  The attorney could be a witness and it's always awkward for an attorney to question herself on the witness stand.  It's even awkward for the attorney to be questioned by her firm partner.

Third, patents aren't "drawn up" by attorneys like, say, a contract.  There are circumstances beyond the knowledge of the attorney that could make the application (or the resulting patent) unenforceable.  Those circumstances have nothing to do with the quality of the services provided by the attorney.

All patents have risk that cannot be eliminated until they expire.  If you don't like that, don't apply for a patent.  Go take a safe job and save up for your retirement over several decades.

Regards.

Title: Re: Need help with Patent Infringement
Post by montgomery c. bondy on Nov 1st, 2007, 10:40am
that last note was too harsh. i remember hosting a philosophy cafe. one guest responded to something i said with;"if you don't like the world the way it is then you know what you can do" she was suggesting that i could kill myself. i dont know what is stuck in the craw of people who say such heartless things. i really hope that you get some justice. it takes a lot of effort to get as far as you have. i will be trying to sell or licence one of my products soon and just because there are greedy people out there does not mean that i will not try to move forward as you have done.

Title: Re: Need help with Patent Infringement
Post by JimIvey on Nov 2nd, 2007, 10:24am
I hope nobody else thought I was suggesting that a poster "off" herself. My comment was strictly about risk.

I'd say most of the people in this country (US) work in relatively cushy jobs with relatively little risk.  They get the same income every pay period and know exactly what they'll be doing at work for the foreseeable future.  The 30-year mortgage was made for these people.  Patents were not.

Patents are inherently risky as far as business assets go.  We see many posts here from people who believe they have a clever idea and want to extract many dollar from it, but don't want to (or can't) invest any money, don't want to invest much time or effort, and want to experience no risk.  It just doesn't work that way.

If you want no risk, stay in the cushy job and keep collecting your paycheck.  As a famous court opinion once said, "the timorous may stay at home."  Bonus points: Holmes, Hand, or Cardozo?  Someone else?  Then extra bonus points.

I don't mean to be harsh, just honest.  Every attempt to make money from a new idea is risky.  There's nothing wrong with avoiding risky things.  But people should not have the unreasonable expectation that profiting from an idea is easy or risk-free.

Regards.

Title: Re: Need help with Patent Infringement
Post by rougie on Nov 15th, 2007, 12:09am
Dear James,

I understand your point of view, and I think that you under estimate the risks inventors go through everyday, the amount of time they have to invest, the effort of doing a patent, the effort of making sure that what they build will actually sell. Do you even empathize this.....

All your saying is when a big company crushes an inventor, its part of the game... its the risk that he takes, the hell with that! an inventor can put more work and effort than the effort your whole familly tree has ever done so and still get crushed by a big company..  because the inventor does not have the money. So what does the effort factor have to do with all this. The rules should be changed! Yaeh, the dam rules need to be amended to protect inventors!

Let me explain to you something....  have you ever seen an inventor with a clever idea every making success... very few I suppose. Why is that? I will tell why.

I don't know what kind of inventors you know, but to come on this site and tell me that if I don't like the way big companies crush small inventors and that small inventors expect alot of success for little effort and therefore I should go back to my  boring day job is a very poor statement in my view. This tells me that you never really invented a product which required several years to accomplish.

Get this into your head buddy! Most inventors that complain are actually trying to tell you that in spite of all the *effort* they have invested, all the money, all the social degradation they go through, the marriages that fall apart due to extra effort invested in the invention, the lack of respect from freinds that are non believers of his invention and peer pressure from familly that can't believe that the inventor is so involved in an invention... we as inventors are somewhat eager to finally atleast see some light at the end of the tunnel.

You see what you don't understand is that, most inventors go through alot of term oil and problematic scenarios and how are they thanked for, a big company crushes them, are you so blind that you don't see the unfairness in all of this, and f**k off with the "this is business" lingo will you.. I don't want to hear that saying anymore from anyone, because let me tell you something about "business". You buy something that some poor soul has spit blood to invent... and turn around and simply sell it for a dam freaking profit.... that to me is not that big of a deal... its a looser in my book, you know why, because I have been in business for 12 years and inventing is alot harder than selling, especially if the product almost sells by itself.

So this is the deal, let some innocent fools (inventors) rattle their brains out for years to invent something, and when it works (how convinient mr. business man) come in and take the inventor to court until he has no more money and gives up his patent. Thats why small inventors never see success. You f****in crooks! Thats the *UNFAIRNESS* that discusts me. So maybe, if you have no imagination for creating an invention, perhaps you should go do a boring simple day job that requires no brains or imagination.

Sorry for being so harsh, but agian the IP legalities need to be changed, changed, changed, now, nowm now!!!!! to protect inventors

with regards
Robert

Title: Re: Need help with Patent Infringement
Post by CriterionD on Nov 19th, 2007, 12:43pm

on 11/15/07 at 00:09:29, rougie wrote:
have you ever seen an inventor with a clever idea every making success... very few I suppose. Why is that? I will tell why.


I can't speak for Jim,  I can say that I have seen inventors make money off of clever ideas.  Generally they are able to do so because they relentlessly work their butts off, take initiative, and find ways to make things happen rather than make excuses as to whats possible or impossible.

Is it unfair that a big company seems to have things that much easier?  Well, think about all the time, effort, and money which was required to make that big company large and powerful.  Running an established big company requires a great deal of time, effort, and money to begin with, and many "big companies" out there were once upon a time started from scratch as small cash strapped companies (or as cash strapped individuals with a simple concept).  Is it not right for them to reap benefits?


Quote:
All your saying is when a big company crushes an inventor, its part of the game...


And when an inventor crushes a big company, or simply profits from it, thats part of the game too


Quote:
because the inventor does not have the money.


Who says the inventor can't get the money?  If he/she truly has a great, profitable idea, and works hard enough to find potential investors, and to communicate the opportunity to them accurately and persuasively - shouldn't the inventor be able to find investment?  I've seen it happen.

Don't want to involve an investor?  Incorporate (it might make sense anyway).  Should cost less than $100.  If you have respectable personal credit, this should allow you to take out a large credit line which is not tied to your personal credit.  Or, simply spend time developing your corporate credit.  Then - regardless of personal credit, you may be able to get a smaller (but large enough) credit line without a personal guarantee - which means that if you default, your company goes bankrupt, and not yourself.  There might be a lot of risk involved either way - but that goes back to Jim's point.

I don't point this stuff out to advocate taking out a large credit line when you are unsure you will be able to pay it back (especially when you may have a family's welfare at stake).  My point is simply that there are usually ways to make things happen if you truly want them to happen badly enough - even as a cash strapped inventor.  Its just that the average person on some level, would rather throw up their hands and be a victim rather than put forth the effort necessary to make certain things happen, and/or they don't feel comfortable taking large risks.  And there's nothing wrong with that.  But its reality, and its one reason why some companies become "big" and immensely profitable while many others remain small and semi-profitable at best.


Quote:
I don't know what kind of inventors you know, but to come on this site and tell me that if I don't like the way big companies crush small inventors and that small inventors expect alot of success for little effort and therefore I should go back to my  boring day job is a very poor statement in my view.


How is a big company going to crush you?  If you do everything right, you won't get "crushed" simply because a company is bigger than you.  Don't have money to litigate?  Once again, if you truly have a good enough case against a company and there is a lot of money at stake - it might be easier said than done - but you're not doing things right and/or you're not putting in enough effort if you can't find just one financially secure person or firm to back your litigation efforts.    

Again, it might be easier said than done, but thats life, not just inventing.

I don't really see where Jim says that anyway.  As far as I can read, he just points out that if you are unwilling to deal with the inherent risks of doing anything other than your boring day job, then you should go back to it.  







Title: Re: Need help with Patent Infringement
Post by rougie on Nov 20th, 2007, 11:46pm
hello, my reply will be spread out on the next few posts!

I must say that my lats post (from rougie) was posted on an off day...You caught me on a very bad moment and triggered harsh feedback, and I apologize.


>I can't speak for Jim,  I can say that I have seen inventors >make money off of clever ideas.  Generally they are able to >do so because they relentlessly work their butts off, take >initiative, and find ways to make things happen rather than >make excuses as to whats possible or impossible.

>Its just that the average person on some level, would rather >throw up their hands and be a victim rather than put forth >the effort necessary to make certain things happen, and/or >they don't feel comfortable taking large risks. And there's >nothing wrong with that.  But its reality, and its one reason >why some companies become "big" and immensely >profitable while many others remain small and semi-profitable >at best.

Yes you are talking about the winny inventors! But for the ones that succeed, I think its more a question of timming and not effort... keep reading as I explain this!

First, most inventors that invent complicated products as I am, in the fields of programming, electronics, chemical or any other scientific nature which takes a minimum of 5 to 8 years to develop, are individuals who truely devote themselves... agree? So your comment above, doesn't really apply to me or most persistant inventors. I can't really speak about other inventors, but if an inventor invents a special paper clip that took him a month to prototype and makes excuses as to whats possible or impossible rather than making things happen... we must agree that this is not a true and persistant inventor.

Take me, I am not trying to give up or anything, I just want to know where I stand, I work day, evening, nights and weekends for months in a row before I take *one* sunday off, like all true inventors do ! The worry of failure becomes a serious factor. Taking large risks? I take them everyday, I am in business ain't I! And as for the product, a great deal of effort is invested in my part, and any persistant inventor will have no problem with that. Basically I am talking about real strong charactered inventors with an inourmous will to succeed which are treated unfairly. I am not talking about the weak ones.

>And when an inventor crushes a big company, or simply >profits from it, thats part of the game too

Give me a comparison of how many times this happened versus the times that a big company crushes a small company or an inventor!!!

I think you are being very optimistic on this one!

Please continue on the next post>>>

Title: Re: Need help with Patent Infringement
Post by rougie on Nov 21st, 2007, 12:12am
Continuarion of previous post!

Yes, big companies can reap benefits!!! But lets talk about large tech companies for a second OKAY! Take huge companies like Samsung or Panasonic etc... These companies once upon a time came up with the right product at the right time at the right place and made something out of it and I tip my hat to them. But now it seems that because of this historic moment of glory they had, they kept growing and today they take advantage and abuse their power to get whatever they want because they have money. Doesn't an inventor in today's era too deserve his or her moment of glory when he or she comes up with the right product at the right time and at the right place.
Aey!

>Who says the inventor can't get the money?  If he/she truly >has a great, profitable idea, and works hard enough to find >potential investors, and to communicate the opportunity to >them accurately and persuasively - shouldn't the inventor be >able to find investment?  I've seen it happen.

Its as if you have seen it happen the same amount of times that the moon was green! Sorry for being sarcastic my good freind! Yes it does happen, but once in this rare scenario, the pitfalls are numerous. I am currently looking for investors right now, I am very reluctant to this for reasons I won't say right now.

>How is a big company going to crush you?  If you do >everything right, you won't get "crushed" simply because a
>company is bigger than you.  Don't have money to litigate?  >Once again, if you truly have a good enough case against a >company and there is a lot of money at stake - it might be >easier said than done - but you're not doing things right >and/or you're not putting in enough effort if you can't find just >one financially secure person or firm to back your litigation >efforts.      

>Again, it might be easier said than done, but thats life, not >just inventing.

>I don't really see where Jim says that anyway.  As far as I can >read, he just points out that if you are unwilling to deal with >the inherent risks of doing anything other than your boring >day job, then you should go back to it.  

I think you need to understand where I am comming from, and that's okay, I don't expect you to know my corporate history but will breifly explain my financial situation. I posses a company in electrical technology(its been 12 years). I have no problems funding my invention via corporate funds, research and development funds and soon to happen government grants. I have no familly and never use my pesonal funds to fund my inventions.

Please continue on next post >>>

Title: Re: Need help with Patent Infringement
Post by rougie on Nov 21st, 2007, 12:21am
test

Title: Re: Need help with Patent Infringement
Post by rougie on Nov 21st, 2007, 12:23am
You know I have heard this a million times, "There is a slim to none chance of wining against a big company".

Then why don't all students that want to get into a science field  be warned on this, so atleats we really get

individuals that only care about science and not entrepreneurialism. You see, we need scientific individuals, but

the law doesn't give them a chance to make big money with their knowledge. This is my pet peeve.


Title: Re: Need help with Patent Infringement
Post by rougie on Nov 21st, 2007, 12:24am
Look, call me extremist, but if it would be up to me, this is the fairness I would opt for:

If you are a big company with lots and lots of $, then if you want to sue some poor inventor due to the *possibility* of infringment, then do so. But don't do it as an excuse so you can steal the inventor's patent in order to gain a new portion of the market by dragging the inventor into huge legal fees. The law should state, if you are a large company and cannot prove infringment after the first 25,000.00 disbursed for legal fees by the inventor, the large company is responsible for the inventor's subsequent legal fees after that. If a big company

can't prove infringment after 25K$ of court litigations, the hell with your infringment... I smell a rat, don't you! eh!

To me, that's fair buck for the vast effort that an inventor invests! If your a big company with big money then use your financial power fairly. And if the inventor is infringing on the big companies patent, then this should be able to be pointed out within the first 25K the inventor disburses in legal fees.

Please view next post for last portion>>>>>>

Title: Re: Need help with Patent Infringement
Post by rougie on Nov 21st, 2007, 12:27am
>you're not putting in enough effort if you can't find just one >financially secure person or firm to back your litigation >efforts.      

Hey, I have heard that an infringment litigation can go from 50K to 10 million dollars not to mention what RIM went through!  I don't want it to be solely about money, I want it to be fair for inventors so they can also have their moment of glory when they put all that work into their invention! I never said that inventors should be able to succeed easily did I? But they should be allowed to succeed whitout worring that a money hammer will hit them on the head if their invention is successfull.
I mean common, give us a chance!

Keeping up this thought of its all about money, money, money, then, the same 200 international big companies will always exist and inventors will always be poor but brilliant. Raw deal don't you think.

>Once again, if you truly have a good enough case against a >company and there is a lot of money at stake - it might be >easier said than done

No matter what, if a big company wants it, it will get it! and I quote you with enphesizm "it is *really* easier said than done"

My good freinds it has been a pleasure reminising with you, you all bring up strong points and I respect them, I just hope I can pull through with my invention someday.

PS, sorry for the fragmentation of my post. Its because the  site wouldn't let me post it all at once!

Warmest regards
Robert

Title: Re: Need help with Patent Infringement
Post by CriterionD on Nov 21st, 2007, 2:36pm

on 11/20/07 at 23:46:56, rougie wrote:
hello, my reply will be spread out on the next few posts!


Nothing wrong with venting


Quote:
Yes you are talking about the winny inventors! But for the ones that succeed, I think its more a question of timming and not effort


Its a question of having a legitimately marketable product, and exerting smart effort, IMO.  




Quote:
First, most inventors that invent complicated products as I am, in the fields of programming, electronics, chemical or any other scientific nature which takes a minimum of 5 to 8 years to develop, are individuals who truely devote themselves... agree? So your comment above, doesn't really apply to me or most persistant inventors.


True, though the process of inventing is separate from the process of marketing an invention - whether that means finding an acquirer or successfully starting your own business.


Quote:
Give me a comparison of how many times this happened versus the times that a big company crushes a small company or an inventor!!!


It might not happen often, but it does occasionally happen.  My only point is that its not so much a matter of the system favoring large companies (while I do agree the system could benefit from some reform) as it is attributable to the simple fact that there is power in numbers.  Thats life, not just inventing.


Quote:
Take huge companies like Samsung or Panasonic etc... These companies once upon a time came up with the right product at the right time at the right place and made something out of it and I tip my hat to them. But now it seems that because of this historic moment of glory they had, they kept growing and today they take advantage and abuse their power to get whatever they want because they have money


Do they abuse their power?  Or do they simply take advantage of their extensive resources?  They may abuse their power at times, but if they do so its generally not done legally.


on 11/21/07 at 00:23:05, rougie wrote:
You know I have heard this a million times, "There is a slim to none chance of wining against a big company".


Again, there is power in numbers.  It is not impossible to win against a big company though.  The story of Robert Kearns is interesting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kearns

Had he found investment before entering litigation, and accepted settlement offers rather than aiming for more than $50 million, the ordeal would have been easier on him as well.

There are certainly cases where there is a high chance of winning against a big company, it just takes perserverance and smart action.  And, some inventors are able to license their products to large companies, and have not needed to enter litigation in order to profit.


on 11/21/07 at 00:24:04, rougie wrote:
can't prove infringment after 25K$ of court litigations, the hell with your infringment... I smell a rat, don't you! eh!


I don't think it would work so simply, but I don't argue that the system is currently perfect and cannot benefit from some reform


Quote:
Keeping up this thought of its all about money, money, money, then, the same 200 international big companies will always exist and inventors will always be poor but brilliant. Raw deal don't you think.


I would argue that if an inventor is truly brilliant and doesn't want to be poor, they will find a way to profit sufficiently from their invention(s).  So many have, Microsoft and Google are only two examples.  It might all be easier said than done, but again, thats life.


Quote:
My good freinds it has been a pleasure reminising with you, you all bring up strong points and I respect them, I just hope I can pull through with my invention someday.


I wish you luck







Title: Re: Need help with Patent Infringement
Post by Wiscagent on Nov 21st, 2007, 6:43pm
A bit off topic, but:
     ... if an inventor is truly brilliant and doesn't want to
     be poor, they will find a way to profit sufficiently from
     their invention(s).  So many have, Microsoft  ...

What the heck does being an inventor or avoiding being poor have to do with Microsoft?  Bill Gates was born with a silver spo0n in his mouth, and he has weak credentials as an inventor.

Title: Re: Need help with Patent Infringement
Post by rougie on Nov 21st, 2007, 11:33pm
>There are certainly cases where there is a high chance of >winning against a big company, it just takes perserverance >and smart action.  And, some inventors are able to license >their products to large companies, and have not needed to >enter litigation in order to profit.

Yeah, but I don't have the intention of licencing any of my product to any company. This is why I am pretty paranoid about all of this. I know my invention is good, and I would like to commercialize it myself. I don't know anymore, I guess I will need investors with deep pockets in case of an infringment issue.

Or a good mentor to help me with all of this. Anyways I have 4 years into this, all I can do is continue learning about patent law which is really not my field!

So anyways thanks for your feedback, it was nice to get some things off my chest and I thankyou for listening!

Warmest regards
Robert

Title: Re: Need help with Patent Infringement
Post by CriterionD on Nov 23rd, 2007, 3:54pm

on 11/21/07 at 23:33:39, rougie wrote:
I don't know anymore, I guess I will need investors with deep pockets in case of an infringment issue.


Or, if you find yourself facing an infringement issue and expensive litigation is required and unavoidable, you can simply seek an investor with deep pockets then.  And/or, you could develop business credit and that way if you needed you might be able to take out a large loan or credit line.  And/or, there are even some patent insurance companies out there now.  My point is simply that there are actual possibilities and if anybody has a good case and their will is strong enough I have confidence in their ability to make good things happen regardless of what they might face.  

While its understandable, no need to be paranoid...

Title: Re: Need help with Patent Infringement
Post by CriterionD on Nov 23rd, 2007, 4:00pm

on 11/21/07 at 18:43:27, Wiscagent wrote:
What the heck does being an inventor or avoiding being poor have to do with Microsoft? Bill Gates was born with a silver spo0n in his mouth, and he has weak credentials as an inventor.


Might not be the most ideal example, but someone invented Microsoft's products early on, and I know he got laughed at trying to shop his stuff around in early days.  And even if he started out with a lot compared to many inventors, he ended up with a hell of a lot more than he started with.  But you have a point.







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