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   Patentese
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Isaac
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Re: Patentese
« Reply #5 on: Jun 6th, 2007, 2:10pm »
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on Jun 6th, 2007, 1:56pm, alan_watts wrote:
Here is a specific example of what I'm talking about. It applies to the description of the invention and and not to the claims.

 
 
Use of (s) in claims is a decidedly different matter from using such a thing in the description.
 
That said, my eyes glazed over half way through the second sentence of the example at least in part because of the faux plurals.
 
« Last Edit: Jun 6th, 2007, 2:22pm by Isaac » IP Logged

Isaac
alan_watts
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Re: Patentese
« Reply #6 on: Jun 6th, 2007, 6:09pm »
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My question is not so much about using (s) but about how to write this paragraph better. I chose (s) because I thought that is will allow me to express the maximum of singular and plural variations with as few words as possible but my eyes glaze to when I read it Smiley.
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Mjohnson
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Re: Patentese
« Reply #7 on: Jun 8th, 2007, 9:48pm »
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Since nobody is brave enough to tackle this one I will try.
 
I would probably brake it down into several parts. First I would discuss a one agreement and maybe a one declaration. Then I would refer to it simply as "the agreement" and "the declaration". This will make forming sentences much easier. Also, that way I don't have to address all the plural and singular combinations while I discuss the embodiment. Then at the end of the paragraph I would say something like this,
 
"It shall be understood to one skilled in the art that multiple agreements and/or declarations may be used as well as any combination of one or more agreements and/or declarations. Similarly a one or more legal rights may be exercised and one or more provisions or statements in the agreements and/or declarations may be binding."  
 
As far as using "one or more element" or "one or more elements"  I don't believe it makes any difference. I have seen both being used. I prefer the later as it sounds better. You may also add "a" for "a one or more element" or "one or more of a elements" to make it more general. though I don't believe it makes any difference either. As long as you say "one or more" it means just that and whether follows either plural or singular doesn't make a difference. Though subsequently you need to refer to it as the "the elements".
 
I'd like to hear what other guys think about it.
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JimIvey
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Re: Patentese
« Reply #8 on: Jun 10th, 2007, 7:30pm »
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on Jun 8th, 2007, 9:48pm, Mjohnson wrote:
I'd like to hear what other guys think about it.

Frankly, I don't think it matters in the least.  I just do what sounds gramatically correct to me.  If I chose one expression and the examiner forces me to change it, I'd sigh, roll my eyes, and change it.  I'd also be careful to assert that the amendment does not narrow the claim(s) in any way (for Festo purposes).  If deposed about it, I'd say that I made the amendment because I wanted the darned claim(s) allowed and I didn't believe the amendment changed the claim(s) in any substantive way.
 
Regards.
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James D. Ivey
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Re: Patentese
« Reply #9 on: Jun 19th, 2007, 2:36pm »
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Claim interpretations of "at least" and the use of singular and plurals, and the use of "about" and other modifiers is tricky.  In general what we do where I work is avoid things like "at least" and try to completely avoid plurals in the claims.  "a" and "an" are better choices.  In the end aim for every little modifier to have its own paragraph int he spec describing what it is.  So a good paragraph would be describing that "a", "an", "the" may be used interchangeably, that first, second, third, etc don't mean a specific order, define that plurals can mean singular and vice versa, etc. etc.
 
In the end, a claim should be easy to read, understand, and interpret.  Makes it easier to prosecute.  But every little detail in it has to have antecedent basis.  Even terms such as "at least" or "a" and "an".  If you don't have these prepositions defined in the spec, then if you use plurals in the spec, you will have trouble using singular int he claims.  etc.
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