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(Message started by: florida on Aug 17^th, 2006, 10:42am)

Title: Just once I want to see a job posting that says:
Post by florida on Aug 17^th, 2006, 10:42am

NO EXPERIENCE NECESSARY.

Seriously, how is it that NO ONE is willing to train a guy. I am smart. I am a quick learner. I think this is demonstrated by the fact that I have a Mechanical Engineering degree, I passed the patent bar, and I am a 3L at a good law school. Yet, apparently this isn't enough to get anyone to invest a little time into training me.

Title: Re: Just once I want to see a job posting that say
Post by justdoit on Aug 17^th, 2006, 3:08pm

Go work for the patent office.
No experience is necessary.
Just do it.
I did it.
I ate humble pie ... mmm, humble pie.
After I did it ... a firm hired me ... mmm, more humble pie.
You can do it.
After you do it ... a firm will hire you.
So just do it.
Now go ... eat humble pie.

Title: Re: Just once I want to see a job posting that say
Post by smgsmc on Aug 17^th, 2006, 5:24pm

Here's how a patent attorney in a law firm explained it to me. $$ are all driven by billable hours. From their experience, a person with zippo experience comes in at 50% efficiency. That is, if an experienced attorney (or agent) can do the job in 1 hr, the beginner will take 2. The law firm can't simply bill a client twice as much because his case has been assigned to someone who works twice as slow. That means that the law firm has to eat the $$ (which is partly offset by a low starting salary). Assuming the beginner is competent, his efficiency rises to 75% after one year and to 90% after the second year. Hiring someone with no experience is a major investment, because a senior person's time is chewed up training the new guy and reviewing his work to make sure it's been done right. If the new guy doesn't work out, a lot of time (=$$) has been wasted. Better to let another law firm take that risk. You need some special hook. I'll be starting a job hunt in a month, so I'll find out whether I have one.

Title: Re: Just once I want to see a job posting that say
Post by smgsmc on Aug 17^th, 2006, 5:30pm

on 08/17/06 at 15:08:26, justdoit wrote:

One issue that frequently pops up in exams: If a patent examiner leaves the patent office, he can't prosecute cases until after a year. Am I interpreting the rule correctly? So what do you do for that one year hold interval? (Other than getting obese from too much humble pie).

Title: Re: Just once I want to see a job posting that say
Post by smgsmc on Aug 17^th, 2006, 5:31pm

on 08/17/06 at 15:08:26, justdoit wrote:

Title: Re: Just once I want to see a job posting that say
Post by Isaac on Aug 17^th, 2006, 7:54pm

on 08/17/06 at 17:31:49, smgsmc wrote:

Not true. There used to be a 2 year prohibition on working on cases assigned to the your old group and possibly even groups with closely related art. That rule was dropped last year. Now there is just a prohibition on matters you worked on.

Title: Re: Just once I want to see a job posting that say
Post by florida on Aug 17^th, 2006, 8:04pm

I just sent a resume to the USPTO for the AIPLA job fair.

Anything else you would recommend?

Title: Re: Just once I want to see a job posting that say
Post by justdoit on Aug 18^th, 2006, 7:36am

When I applied for a job at the patent office, I went to their website and keyed lots of information myself. People with bachelors degrees (or more) in science or engineering are likely to get offers. I didn't send a resume per se ... at least not hard-copy. I may have cut and pasted my resume into some entry box of some electronic form ... I don't recall. But I keyed data into a bunch of on-line electronic forms, hit submit, and wallah ... the phone rang a few days later.
Job.
Done.

The point I'm making is that a hard-copy e-mail can get lost or neglected before data entry into their system occurs.

No one's gonna love ya at the PTO baby ... so you might have to get your data into the system yourself. Then the all powerful computers will command the carbon-based life form "humans" to call you and hire you.

Oh yeah ... I should mention ... I applied in 2000 ... so ... my advice is dated ... but I'm not dated ... no weekend plans, what are you doing tomorrow night? ... I like 'em young ... oh wait, wrong website ... forget I said anything ... in fact, I was never here.

Title: Re: Just once I want to see a job posting that say
Post by Scott on Aug 21^st, 2006, 11:10am

justdoit-

when you say you worked for the uspto and ate humble pie, do you mean that you passed the patent bar, finished law school, then worked at the uspto as an examiner? Or did you work as an attorney for the uspto?

Title: Re: Just once I want to see a job posting that say
Post by daven on Aug 21^st, 2006, 6:01pm

Why can't you get a job through the school's employment office? The companies that recruit on campus realize they're hiring new graduates with no experience. Just curious.

Title: Re: Just once I want to see a job posting that say
Post by Tortfeasor on Aug 23^rd, 2006, 10:00am

Usually companies that come to law school are looking for top 5-10% of the class so it is still tough to get a job through the employment center

Title: Re: Just once I want to see a job posting that say
Post by Bill Richards on Aug 23^rd, 2006, 6:28pm

Don't know how much has changed since 1999, but here's my story:
I graduated from law school in 1998 (third in my class at regional Midwest law school) (had patent bar under my belt from August 1998) at age 55. Passed OH bar in February 1999. Got job at major Midwest lawfirm in September. Had one other offer from another major Midwest lawfirm to consider. Passed IN bar in 2000. Took in-house job in 2001 for major Midwest research lab. Recently left to practice solo. Life's good!
Food for thought. The good students get jobs.

Title: Re: Just once I want to see a job posting that say
Post by LF on Aug 25^th, 2006, 9:48am

Florida:

I am new to IP, but old to hiring people. The first thing you want to do by asking for experience, is to cut down on the mountains of resumes you are going to get (remember, usually the manager doing the hiring already has a real job besides hiring!).

The really important thing you are looking for is not the coursework (EVERYONE has done that), but the additional things someone may have done. These point to their interests and other capabilities.

If getting experience is important, recall that nothing (other than $425; $75 filing, $100 examination, $250 search) stops you from preparing and filing a patent or two (I'm sure your friends or family have pestered you with some "great" ideas). Sure, they may not account for much, but they will separate you from the rest of the applicants.

Title: Re: Just once I want to see a job posting that say
Post by wallflower on Aug 25^th, 2006, 10:05am

on 08/25/06 at 09:48:45, LF wrote:

If getting experience is important, recall that nothing (other than $425; $75 filing, $100 examination, $250 search) stops you from preparing and filing a patent or two (I'm sure your friends or family have pestered you with some "great" ideas). Sure, they may not account for much, but they will separate you from the rest of the applicants.

Given Florida's lack of experience with preparing patent applications, I would not recommend this course of action. Without a mentor's review, the application will likely be full of mistakes.

Title: Re: Just once I want to see a job posting that say
Post by LF on Aug 25^th, 2006, 12:01pm

Sure, but the first response is going to be in a couple of years anyway. By then, if she has been unable to get a job...

Plagiarism being the most sincere form of flattery, I believe she would be able to get significant guidance into what and how to write most parts of the specification (including the weasel language) from many of published applications and patents.

As for the claims, someone mentioned that his first set of claims was over a page and a half. Wow, when I was a lowly engineer having the process explained to me by the Attorney, even I understood that the briefer and more general the claim, the better.

Since she will be able to ammend the claims based on what the examiner states, ... ;D

Again, by then she will have a job, and would have demonstrated to any hiring firm that she has "gumption".

Title: Re: Just once I want to see a job posting that say
Post by wallflower on Aug 25^th, 2006, 12:43pm

I think you're leaving out a few additional pitfalls, such as if the application publishes or if the inventor relies on a poorly written application in business decisions.

As a person who has been involved in hiring decisions in the past, I would likely consider the decision to draft patent applications without a mentor to reflect poorly on the applicant.

Title: Re: Just once I want to see a job posting that say
Post by LF on Aug 27^th, 2006, 11:24am

He, he, but you were already not going to give her a job, so she has lost little in your case.

If she indicates that the application is not going to be submitted outside the US, she can opt to withold publication (and she demonstrates advanced knowledge of the rules).

I would suspect someone seriously considering hiring her would be asking for a writing example, and you're better off showing you can DO something, than being part of the pack by showing up empty handed.

Finally, I am sure a number of people who post in this board would be happy to review the final application for a couple of hours of fees.

Again, just a suggested approach worth every penny ($0) that she paid. 8)

Title: Re: Just once I want to see a job posting that say
Post by smgsmc on Aug 31^st, 2006, 2:09pm

on 08/27/06 at 11:24:28, LF wrote:

Hi LF. I just passed two weeks ago, and am starting my hunt. Can't tell whether you are joshing or not. Learning through mistakes is, of course, highly instructive. How many mistakes (and how severe) are permissible depends on specific instances. If someone follows your advice...(1) Wouldn't he leave himself wide open for malpractice suits. I believe that an exam question asks whether a practitioner can state on the contract, "I have no experience, you are my guinea pig, and you agree not to sue me." (2) Wouldn't word get around that you're a turkey. I would think that having no record is better than a proven lousy one.

Title: Re: Just once I want to see a job posting that say
Post by StatingTheObvious on Aug 31^st, 2006, 4:42pm

Y'all are missing the obvious.

If one just wants a patent writing sample, one could dream up an invention and write an application. It needn't be a worthwhile invention. I don't apply any "worthwhile" test to the inventions of my clients. If the writer is the inventor, malpractice concerns are avoided. Here is a sample invention ... I'll give myself one minute to think of one ... starting now ...
OK, I've got one ... took 30 seconds.
My invention is a clock that announces the time when you clap. Clap once and it reads the time, clap twice it starts counting seconds out loud ... one final clap stops the counting.

Next, one could find an recent Office Action on PAIR. One could review the application, review the Office Action, review the cited references, and draft a response that could be put forward as a writing sample so long as it is understood that no representation of the owner of the application has occurred.

As far as limiting your liability to your client ... don't try it ... see Canon 10.78.

Would I do any of these things?
No.
I found writing samples from previous scholastic and work experiences when I approached this career.
Should you do any of these things?
That's up to you.

A good concocted sample might get the job.
On the other hand, a bad concocted sample might lose the job.

Title: Re: Just once I want to see a job posting that say
Post by StatingTheObvious on Sep 1^st, 2006, 7:40am

I decided I'd enter my opinion on this matter.
I think time would be better spent looking for a job and looking for contacts than concocting writing samples.

Writing such samples would be bold and strange. It would demonstrate initiative and deviation from the norm. There is some special employer out there that would view such efforts positively. Most people would just find it weird.

Thinking outside the box is perhaps not the best first career move ... unless you truly want to live outside the box.

If you're trying to get a law firm job ... you need to think in the box. You need to think so in the box so as to forget the box is there. Be in the box.

Title: Re: Just once I want to see a job posting that say
Post by smgsmc on Sep 1^st, 2006, 1:29pm

on 09/01/06 at 07:40:02, StatingTheObvious wrote:

One misstep...and you'll be living inside a box under a bridge in Manhattan.