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(Message started by: nittanylion302 on May 28^th, 2006, 9:26am)

Title: UMN's combined JD/MS in Pharmacology?
Post by nittanylion302 on May 28^th, 2006, 9:26am

anyone have experience with this program or ones like it?

It seems specifically to deal with drug development.

http://www.jointdegree.umn.edu/degree_programs/dp.php?c=drugdev&d=ms_pharm&s=curriculum

Title: Re: UMN's combined JD/MS in Pharmacology?
Post by guest on May 28^th, 2006, 9:57am

When I was looking at grad schools, I also looked into the dual degree program (JD/PhD-Pharmacology) at Minnesota. Ultimately, I didn't apply there b/c I just can't handle the weather--I'm a warm body. But, I did end up doing my PhD at a school which had a drug metabolism professor move to Minnesota the year before I got there. Consequently, our labs do a significant amount of collaboration. From what I know of it, their graduate pharm. programs are pretty good and their law school is good as well. Sometimes, I wonder if maybe I shouldn't have applied there just so I would have had law school paid for. Instead, I have to try to find a law firm to pay for it while I work as a patent agent or move to DC and work for the USPTO once I finish my PhD.

On a separate note, if you do decide to go the JD/MS route instead of the JD/PhD route, be sure that you will end up in law and not in science because I don't think there are a lot of opportunities these days for someone with just a masters in pharm--everyone is either a lab tech (bachelors degree) or a principal investigator (PhD). Many schools, including mine, don't even offer an MS anymore.

Good Luck!

Title: Re: UMN's combined JD/MS in Pharmacology?
Post by nittanylion302 on May 28^th, 2006, 11:09am

Thanks, that was very interesting. The reason i'm more looking into the MS is because I'm not really sure I want to spend another 7 years in school. I'd like to get out into the real world.

Could you point me to some of the other programs like Minnesota's?

Thanks

Title: Re: UMN's combined JD/MS in Pharmacology?
Post by guest on May 28^th, 2006, 4:54pm

I didn't find any others. Maybe I missed some (I didn't look at schools over the entire US) or maybe some new ones have popped up in the three years since I was looking. Most dual programs don't tie in with hard science--they're usually MBAs, Philosophy, Economics, MPHs, etc. It's unfortunate.

Maybe somebody else knows of other programs. You could probably get in touch with the folks at Minnesota and ask them about similar programs in the country. If anybody would know, you'd think it would be them.

Good Luck!

Title: Re: UMN's combined JD/MS in Pharmacology?
Post by Rphjd on Jun 6^th, 2006, 8:59pm

Univ of Southern California offers a PharmD/JD degree in 6 years, which would give you better credential.

Title: Re: UMN's combined JD/MS in Pharmacology?
Post by nittanylion302 on Jun 8^th, 2006, 7:43am

"Univ of Southern California offers a PharmD/JD degree in 6 years, which would give you better credential. "

any particular reasons why a PharmD would be better?

Title: Re: UMN's combined JD/MS in Pharmacology?
Post by guest on Jun 8^th, 2006, 8:26am

I may be wrong, but I think he meant that the PharmD would give you better credentials than the MS. I can see how this might be true based on what I said in a previous post--an MS in pharmaceutical sciences doesn't get you very far these days. It is true that if you didn't do law, the PharmD would still qualify you for another good paying, respected career.

However, I don't know how much a PharmD would help you understand the complexities of the science. I've taught some PharmD lab classes and I must admit I was suprised how little hard science they really knew (or were expected to know)--most couldn't even draw the chemical structure of aspirin.

I haven't looked at the USC website, but my guess is that this program is intended more for those interested in things like pharmacoeconomics, pharmaceutical systems policy, etc. rather than intellectual property.

I'm sure they're some out there, but FWIW on all the firm websites I've looked through I've never seen anyone listed in the IP department with PharmD/JD credentials.

Title: Re: UMN's combined JD/MS in Pharmacology?
Post by nittanylion302 on Jun 8^th, 2006, 8:37am

"an MS in pharmaceutical sciences doesn't get you very far these days."

Even so, looking on the "recent graduates" page, a recent MS student is now an associate at Schiff Hardin

Title: Re: UMN's combined JD/MS in Pharmacology?
Post by guest on Jun 8^th, 2006, 11:07am

I'm sorry. I meant that there are not many jobs in the pharmaceutical industry that you can do with an MS. I said in a previous post that most people entering the pharmacy research world are either techs (BS/BA) or prinicpal/senior investigators (PhD). Of course, there are exceptions to this maxim as well--most often in the form of lab managers with an MS.

I have no opinion what-so-ever on the job opportunities in law for someone with an MS in pharmaceuctical sciences. Remember, the only reason I brought up the MS vs PhD question to begin with was in case you didn't end up in law after all.

Title: Re: UMN's combined JD/MS in Pharmacology?
Post by nittanylion302 on Jun 8^th, 2006, 11:54am

oh sorry, I didn't know you were the same guest as before

Title: Re: UMN's combined JD/MS in Pharmacology?
Post by TripleJ on Jun 8^th, 2006, 12:07pm

Thank you for reminding me of the confusion of using guest as a name. From now on, I'll use TripleJ.

And FWIW, after I wrote the last post I found a PharmD/JD dual program at Maryland also, but the description listed practice areas such as health care law and science policy; it never mentioned--from what I saw--anything about intellectual property. This leads me to believe that maybe a PharmD/JD wouldn't be the best/easiest route to becoming an IP lawyer. But that's just my opinion.

Title: Re: UMN's combined JD/MS in Pharmacology?
Post by Isaac on Jun 8^th, 2006, 12:37pm

on 06/08/06 at 12:07:57, TripleJ wrote:

You don't need to go to an "IP School" to be an IP lawyer or even a patent lawyer. If the school of your choice offers IP course, by all means take them, but don't select a school on the basis of how many IP courses are offered.

Title: Re: UMN's combined JD/MS in Pharmacology?
Post by TripleJ on Jun 8^th, 2006, 1:30pm

The description I gave is not about the Unviersity of Maryland's School of Law in general. Rather, it is a description of the PharmD/JD dual program given on the dual program's website.

The point that I was trying to make was that if the school offering the PharmD/JD dual program doesn't even consider IP to be a reason to enter the dual program, then it's not very likely that a PharmD/JD is a good way to get into--or a good way to prepare for--intellectual property law.

I wasn't trying to say that University of Maryland isn't an "IP school" so someone interested in doing IP shouldn't go there. I guess what I was saying was that someone interested in doing IP who wants to go into a dual degree program as a way to earn an advanced degree in science might consider an MS/JD or PhD/JD program over a PharmD/JD program. I hope that is a little clearer. :)

Title: Re: UMN's combined JD/MS in Pharmacology?
Post by nittanylion302 on Jun 12^th, 2006, 6:38pm

seems like Illinois (UIUC) has something similar

http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/chem/gradprogram/jtprog.html

Title: Re: UMN's combined JD/MS in Pharmacology?
Post by nittanylion302 on Jun 13^th, 2006, 11:54am

Texas Tech and Case Western also have similar programs

http://www.law.ttu.edu/lawWeb/centersprograms/jointdegreeprograms/lifesciences/JDBio.shtm

looks like case's program is brand new
http://law.case.edu/spotlight_detail.asp?id=41

Title: Re: UMN's combined JD/MS in Pharmacology?
Post by Rphjd on Jun 14^th, 2006, 8:17pm

I wonder what is the driving force behing the proliferation of these dual JD programs or even many of other dual degree programs. Part of it, of course is the competition for jobs. Another maybe the fact that more and more people hold advance degrees and it becomes a matter of "degree inflation".

Title: Re: UMN's combined JD/MS in Pharmacology?
Post by nittanylion302 on Jun 14^th, 2006, 8:33pm

well, from the looks of it, a lot of these programs are specifically to expidite the process of producing IP/Patent Lawyers

Title: Re: UMN's combined JD/MS in Pharmacology?
Post by nickel on Jun 29^th, 2006, 4:43am

To nittany lion: I guess from your user name you are in/from Penn state. :)
Well I have just been admitted into the IBIOS (Integrative Biosciences) PhD program at PSU and am seriously considering a patent law career after grad school.
IBIOS includes an internship component which they say can be in a legal setting. I would appreciate any opinions you have on IBIOS or Penn State's Huck Institute of life science as a stepping stone to patent law. Also would you know if students can intern/work part-time at Penn State's tech transfer office?
Would be grateful for any input
thanks

Title: Re: UMN's combined JD/MS in Pharmacology?
Post by TataBoxInhibitor on Jun 29^th, 2006, 6:25pm

on 06/14/06 at 20:17:04, Rphjd wrote:

I think an undergraduate education is fast becoming the norm and to compete, people are seeking advance degrees. Given the number of joint programs, it seems reasonable to conclude that there will be a rise in more "specialty" positions of patent law.

What is interesting is that chem/biochem phDs spend 4-6 years on a thesis in one area, lets say, metabolic biochemistry, then after a J.D., how well does that translate into patent subject matter of genetics or immunology? I would imagine that in some cases the learning curve would be the same as one with a B.S. in genetics or immunology.

Title: Re: UMN's combined JD/MS in Pharmacology?
Post by TripleJ on Jun 29^th, 2006, 8:35pm

I agree with your comment that today's bachelor's degree is yesterday's HS diploma and that to be competitive in the world marketplace, more and more people feel they need to have one or more advanced degrees.

I disagree with your second comment, however. (First, technicalities: to my knowledge, PhD=dissertation; Masters=thesis). I would make the argument that while the RESULT of pursuing a PhD would make one an expert in one particular topic (such as metabolic biochemistry), the PROCESS of obtaining the PhD would make one an expert in problem solving--a skillset highly underdeveloped in most freshly minted BS students. To be successful in a career, patent law or otherwise, I believe that learning how to think will get you a lot further than what you happened to study in some undergraduate class.

How often do you see someone with a PhD whose career focus is the same type of work they did for their dissertation? Seldom, I think. Even those scientists that go back into academia often pursue research most similar to their post-doc work and not their dissertation work.

I guess what I'm really trying to defend is the fact that obtaining a PhD has a lot more value than making you intimately aware of some obscure topic. Ideally, it teaches you how to be a thinker, problem-solver, communicator, etc., etc., etc. In my opinion, that's why the degree awarded is a doctor of PHILOSOPHY and not a doctor of SCIENCE.

And to tie back in to your comment, I would hire the PhD in metabolic biochemistry to write a genetics patent for me any day of the week over someone with a BS in genetics (all else like total experience, etc., being the same, of course). But that's just me... :)

Title: Re: UMN's combined JD/MS in Pharmacology?
Post by TataBoxInhibitor on Jul 5^th, 2006, 6:21pm

I agree.