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(Message started by: JTripodo on Jan 31^st, 2005, 3:02pm)

Title: Working for the USPTO
Post by JTripodo on Jan 31^st, 2005, 3:02pm

Just wondering if any patent examiners from the USPTO out there can give any indication of what its like to work for the USPTO as an examiner and how difficult it is to get hired.

I'm going to one of their Job Fair's this weekend and hope that I've got a shot at getting hired!

Thanks,
John

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Feb 1^st, 2005, 7:20am

It depends on what your background is and how you stand out from the rest of the crowd.

It is very competitive because everyone wants to work there. I hear there are stacks of resumes from all over the country.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by JTripodo on Feb 1^st, 2005, 7:51am

I have a BS in Physics and have worked as a Software Developer for the past 12 years. I have had experience as an electrical design engineer designing microelectronic (hybrid) circuits.

Also, not sure if it helps, I spent 4 years in the Air Force as an Aircraft Electrician.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Pat Grant on Feb 1^st, 2005, 9:06am

on 02/01/05 at 07:20:44, Guest wrote:

I find this very hard to believe. I think someone is pulling your leg John. If you have an eng degree, speak at least a bit of English, and breathe oxygen you'll probably get an offer.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Pat Grant on Feb 1^st, 2005, 9:11am

By the way, my post above isn't intended to be a knock on the USPTO or the people who work there. Rather, it just seems that they always have a long list of job openings:
<A HREF="http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ahrpa/ohr/jobs/jobs.htm"> USPTO Job Board</A>

I've checked this list periodically over the years and it's always long.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Feb 1^st, 2005, 9:47am

I am sure experience and background varies for the different technologies.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Feb 1^st, 2005, 10:01am

The second post above was a statement by the contact people in regard to the postings at the web address given by Pat Grant.

Take from it what you may.

Pat Grant seems to have an axe to grind.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by JTripodo on Feb 1^st, 2005, 10:02am

Thanks for the input.
Guess I'll find out this weekend! ;)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Pat Grant on Feb 1^st, 2005, 3:00pm

Axe to grind? LOL No, no axe to grind. Just an observation based on years of experience and grumblings out of the PTO. Like I said, nothing against the PTO or the good folks there, they just seem to have a problem competing with private sector jobs that pay much better.

Some people are so sensitive, geez! ;D

Best of luck to you John, I think you've got a good shot at landing a job there.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Jonathan on Feb 1^st, 2005, 3:23pm

The Patent Office Professional Organization's website offers an insider's view on Examiner work issues.

The website claims that "POPA represents more than 3,900 employees, the vast majority of whom are patent examiners", in a quote from 2003. I don't know if their viewpoints are commonplace in the examining corps, however.

http://www.popa.org/

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anon on Feb 1^st, 2005, 6:11pm

on 02/01/05 at 15:00:15, Pat Grant wrote:

...nothing against the PTO or the good folks there, they just seem to have a problem competing with private sector jobs that pay much better.

When I applied in '97 for a position as a biotech examiner, over 1,000 applications had been submitted for 14 positions. Of the 14 hired, 12 were PhDs.

Sure, the PTO has high turnover. But that doesn't change the fact that, although many will apply, few will receive an offer.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by dandoe123 on Feb 1^st, 2005, 11:22pm

on 02/01/05 at 18:11:10, Anon wrote:

considering the highly competitive nature of the positions, how does one better "prepare" himself for seeking such position?

i'll be graduating with a PhD in immunology. besides my publicationo record, recommendation, and interview... what exactly can i do to have a "better" chance?

thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by eric stasik on Feb 2^nd, 2005, 1:53am

on 02/01/05 at 15:00:15, Pat Grant wrote:

the PTO... have a problem competing with private sector jobs that pay much better.

But because there is no better way to get those high paying private sector jobs than with USPTO/EPO experience they should have no shortage of qualified applicants.

You can't simply compare salaries, but you have to take into account the considerable value of the intangible benefits of this work experience.

Good luck JTripodo.

regards,

eric stasik

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anon on Feb 2^nd, 2005, 3:55am

on 02/01/05 at 23:22:59, dandoe123 wrote:

i'll be graduating with a PhD in immunology. besides my publicationo record, recommendation, and interview... what exactly can i do to have a "better" chance?

I was one of the 14 to be hired as a biotech examiner in '97. How did I get the job? I don't have the slightest idea. Nonetheless, here are a few pointers you might want to consider:

Although there is no shortage of new applicants, the PTO has a problem retaining experienced Examiners. Once examiners get their training, they often leave for higher paying (or equally paying, but less stressful) jobs. In fact, many leave leave after just 1 year, and the majority leave within 2 or 3 years. So without being too overt about it, present yourself as someone who will be around for longer than that. (But don't over do it by claiming that you plan to become a career examiner. The interviewer will think you are lying or aren't very ambitious.) And before you interview, you should also do considerable homework as to what an examiner actually does. You'll need to explain why you want to leave the lab to do this sort of work. You might even want to learn a little patent law so you can "talk the talk" during your interview. If you haven't already done so, have a look at the MPEP. You might even want to read chapters 700 and 2100 (or parts thereof) just to get a feel for it. Have a look here...

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/indext.htm

Hope the above helps.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by JTripodo on Feb 2^nd, 2005, 6:31am

Wow, Excellent information!

I recently started studying for the patent exam using the PatBar program and will definitely check into those topics further that you mentioned.

Thanks,
John

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by eric stasik on Feb 2^nd, 2005, 7:11am

on 02/02/05 at 03:55:41, Anon wrote:

Although there is no shortage of new applicants, the PTO has a problem retaining experienced Examiners. Once examiners get their training, they often leave for higher paying (or equally paying, but less stressful) jobs.

looking at the USPTO as a public agency i actually don't see this as negative. the infusion of former USPTO examiners into the pool of agents and attorneys keeps professional standards high in the private sector. of course it presents a difficulty for the USPTO as an employer, but i see their role of trainer/educator as equally important.

that being said, a core of long term competent employees is crucial to ANY organisation so the USPTO has to balance the turnover with a policy to provide truly competitive options for those who make a career of it.

/eric stasik

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by JB on Feb 2^nd, 2005, 7:27am

If you want to apply Pat Grant's logic as a quick and imprecise exercise one could easily compare the hiring at the USPTO to any firm's hiring practices.

For example say that a 100 lawyer firm hires 10 new associates each year or roughly 10%. Compared to the USPTO that means hiring 10% of 3,900 exminers each year (390 positions). Of course they would constantly be hiring to get the most qualified candidates. Even if they were hiring 100 or 200 examiners they would be consistently listing openings.

Pat Grant seems to have no clue and poor off-the-cuff logic. THINK before you speak.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anon on Feb 2^nd, 2005, 8:02am

on 02/02/05 at 07:11:30, eric stasik wrote:

I agree (and I think that even the PTO would agree) that their role is, in part, that of a trainer/educator. Even so, the turnover at the PTO has reached a point that is unhealthy. My stats are a little out of date, but last I heard, 50% of examiners had been with the office for fewer than 3 years, which coincidentally is just about how long it takes most examiners to attain a reasonable level of competence.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Pat Grant on Feb 2^nd, 2005, 9:10am

on 02/02/05 at 07:27:11, JB wrote:

Ummmmmmmmmm...Nice to meet you, too? ;D

Wow! Post an opinion, get insulted. ::)

Well, I respect yours and others opinions. I believe smart people can disagree, no insults required. ;)

My comments are simply an personal based on my personal experience. Obviously you and others have had different experiences. Hearing about them has been enlightening.

I'm sure there are some niche areas, like biotech, where it's more competitive. However, I wouldn't want to post an opinion based solely on those cases and needlessly scare someone away from seeking employment.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Pat Grant on Feb 2^nd, 2005, 9:14am

on 02/02/05 at 09:10:32, Pat Grant wrote:

My comments are simply an personal based on my personal experience.

oops - should read "My comments are simply a personal opinion based on my personal experience."

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by eric stasik on Feb 2^nd, 2005, 9:54am

on 02/02/05 at 08:02:13, Anon wrote:

Even so, the turnover at the PTO has reached a point that is unhealthy. My stats are a little out of date, but last I heard, 50% of examiners had been with the office for fewer than 3 years, which coincidentally is just about how long it takes most examiners to attain a reasonable level of competence.

anon, i've never worked at the USPTO so i can only speak as an outside observer, but this statistic doesn't talk to me.

maybe 50% turnover 0-3 years is right where it should be. again i am thinking of the need of private industry to absorb these skills. is it necessarily unhealthy? why do you say that it is? how does this compare to other parts of the government sector?

what is the turnover rate of people who have been there 5 or more years? is it substantially in or out of line with the rest of the government sector? these are the people that make it possible for a 0-3 year examiner to do a good job, so if there is a reasonable turnover of these people, then a high turn-over of 0-3 might not be so bad.

i'm not trying to challenge you, not at all. i'm just trying to understand this better.

regards,

eric stasik

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anon on Feb 2^nd, 2005, 9:55am

on 02/02/05 at 09:10:32, Pat Grant wrote:

I'm sure there are some niche areas, like biotech, where it's more competitive. However, I wouldn't want to post an opinion based solely on those cases and needlessly scare someone away from seeking employment.

I'm not sure on what "personal experience" you are basing your comments, but you are correct that biotech may be slightly more competitive than some other areas. Even so, applicants greatly outnumber available positions in ALL areas. And I don't say that to "needlessly scare someone away from seeking employment." Just stating facts.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Feb 2^nd, 2005, 10:06am

on 02/02/05 at 08:02:13, Anon wrote:

My stats are a little out of date, but last I heard, 50% of examiners had been with the office for fewer than 3 years, which coincidentally is just about how long it takes most examiners to attain a reasonable level of competence.

Noting that many examiners are part-time law-school students, 3-4 years is coincidentally about how long it takes to finish law school. I wonder how much that plays into it.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anon on Feb 2^nd, 2005, 11:09am

on 02/02/05 at 09:54:09, eric stasik wrote:

maybe 50% turnover 0-3 years is right where it should be. again i am thinking of the need of private industry to absorb these skills. is it necessarily unhealthy? why do you say that it is? how does this compare to other parts of the government sector?

what is the turnover rate of people who have been there 5 or more years? is it substantially in or out of line with the rest of the government sector? these are the people that make it possible for a 0-3 year examiner to do a good job, so if there is a reasonable turnover of these people, then a high turn-over of 0-3 might not be so bad.

Good questions and no challenge taken.

I only have a few minutes, so here are a few brief (and poorly organized) thoughts...

Sure, the private sector benefits from having a pool of trained patent professionals from which to hire. And yes, as I said, I think that the Office would agree that their role is, in part, that of a trainer/educator.

Why do I say that the current rate of turnover, where 50% of examiners leave the office before 3, is unhealthy? As I mentioned, it usually takes at least three years for an examiner to acquire a reasonable level of competence. Where only 50% of examiners have been with the office for 3 or more years, then it follows that, at best, only 50% of examiners have a reasonable level of competence. So one problem is that too many applications are being examined by examiners who are not yet competent... the ramifications of which should be self-evident.

Now you might be thinking, "Aren't new examiners supervised by experienced examiners?" In theory yes, but in practice NO. The experienced examiners have a hard enough time keeping up with their own dockets. They certainly don't have time review all the actions of the great many examiners who are not yet competent.

By the way, in the interest of full disclosure, I stayed with the PTO for 3 years before moving on. How's that for hypocrisy?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by eric stasik on Feb 2^nd, 2005, 11:30am

on 02/02/05 at 11:09:05, Anon wrote:

it usually takes at least three years for an examiner to acquire a reasonable level of competence. Where only 50% of examiners have been with the office for 3 or more years, then it follows that, at best, only 50% of examiners have a reasonable level of competence. So one problem is that too many applications are being examined by examiners who are not yet competent... the ramifications of which should be self-evident.

Now you might be thinking, "Aren't new examiners supervised by experienced examiners?" In theory yes, but in practice NO. The experienced examiners have a hard enough time keeping up with their own dockets. They certainly don't have time review all the actions of the great many examiners who are not yet competent.

thanks for your answer anon.

let me "challenge" you again. you say "it usually takes at least three years for an examiner to acquire a reasonable level of competence." to work independently as an examiner. it may only take 1-2 years to gain the experience necessary to work effectively in the private sector.

your second point is indeed a problem. rumour has it that there are 500,000 applications in backlog. my math makes this approx. 75 applications for every one of the USPTO's 6500 employees - of which fewer than half are examiners.

if the average application is 1 cm thick, and then add another 1 cm of prior art to read, this is a pile 150 cm or almost 5 feet high in the in-box of EVERY employee at the USPTO.

this, of course, is a far larger problem. who wants to come to work on monday and look at a pile 5 feet high of paper sitting in their in-box?

thanks again for the information. sorry to drag this thead off topic...

/eric stasik

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Huh on Feb 2^nd, 2005, 2:56pm

The only person doing the insulting Pat Grant is you in your posts on the first page.

Maybe you should think to yourself and wonder why it is so difficult for you to get an allowance sometimes during your prosecutions. It could be because of your condescending attitude which, if noticed, will immediately cause examiners to dig in their heels. You might try a new attitude and be suprised how much further you will get with the examiner thereby serving your clients better.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by eric stasik on Feb 3^rd, 2005, 3:28am

rogersDA,

thanks for the correction.

if you consider my comments figuratively, instead of literally, are they correct, or would you say that this is hyperbole?

regards,

eric

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Patent_Prospect on Feb 3^rd, 2005, 7:58am

First-time poster, long-time viewer.

I find this forum very useful, especially for those at the start of what seems to be a very satisfying career choice.

My background is very similar to many who post. I posess a B.S.E.E. and an M.S.E.E. (Microwave/RF and Microelectronics dual-concentration). I have approximately 3 years of engineering experience, and research experience as a doctoral student in EE (ABD).

I went to a seminar while a Ph.D. student for "alternative" careers in engineering, where a patent attorney was one of the speakers. After speaking with him for some time, I decided to study for (and take) the USPTO registration exam. I have been registered for 2 years. In addition, I worked at a research university as a technology manager in the Office of Research, assisting university inventors in securing patent protection, and securing licensing partners for university owned IP, for a year.

I have a job offer from the USPTO as an examiner, as well as a DC law firm as a patent agent (obviously, agent position pays better).

To make a long story long, I am seeking candid professional advice. From a career prospect prospective (long-term), should I:

1) Accept the examiner position (due to my lack of law firm experience, this might allow me to see the nuts and bolts of patent prosecution, without immediate billable hour requirements, etc.)

2) Accept the agent position (pay is better, and I would like to eventually migrate to patent prosecution, but would this hinder my development in the long run; i.e., walking before I crawl).

3) Bury my head in the sand, while shouting "thank you sir, can I have another" at my lame, go nowhere government contract engineering job, where it seems that the only goal is to find an unused account to bill to long enough to survive the next round of layoffs, only to eventually get laid off after 20 years due, in part, to the fact that they can hire 3-4 green engineers for the price of 1. :D

(Please forgive the sarcasm. Option 3 is not really an option.)

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Patent_Prospect...out.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Patent_Type on Feb 3^rd, 2005, 9:25am

You don't mention if you plan to go to law school. Regardless, my opinion is that you should accept the agent job. Better pay, plenty of experience, go to law school at night.

PT

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Patent_Type on Feb 3^rd, 2005, 9:28am

Plus, then as a patent agent, you can curse the ineptitude of examiners, instead of being laughed and cursed at constantly by practitioners.

PT

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Patent_Prospect on Feb 3^rd, 2005, 9:59am

FYI, the USPTO just reinstated their law school reimbursement program, which they discontinued in 2000-2001. They told me in the interview.

In anyone's experience, do they offer any sort of training as an agent, or is it primarily an every-man-for-himself environment? Although I think I would be successful in either opportunity, I want to be able to serve my prospective employer as best as possible, which is to say that I don't want to waste the law firm's time by being a training burden, where I could conceivably gain that training as an examiner for a few years.

Although I am aware that and examiner and a practioner are distinctly different, I try to consider that I might be more valuable to a firm (and potential clients) by having been on the "other side" for a while.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by patent hype on Feb 3^rd, 2005, 10:41am

You will probably get better traing and be the go-to-person at a firm with a few years at the pto under your belt. And while you are there you can laugh and curse at the ineptitude of the practitioners as is commonly done.

Its up to you but the intangible benefits of having contacts and understanding the culture may outweigh the money for a few years.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by LJP on Feb 7^th, 2005, 9:50am

What are the salaries for examiners at the USPTO.

ie, starting and after the 1 year training.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Jonathan on Feb 7^th, 2005, 10:24am

This link should give you some idea:

http://www.usptocareers.gov/salaryrates.asp

Perusing the current openings at

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ahrpa/ohr/jobs/jobs.htm

indicates that the starting pay grade can be between grades 5 and 13 (about $35k up to $78k). I assume the 'steps' going across the table (left to right) governs the pay increases.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Erin on Feb 7^th, 2005, 11:16am

You can also get overtime for anything over 40 hours a week as well as bonuses.

Title: Working for the USPTO
Post by Steve on Feb 8^th, 2005, 9:24am

Is there currently active hiring at the USPTO. I applied (Biotech Units) in mid 2004, but was told that they were done hiring for the year. I have applied to the posting for the start of 2005, but I haven't heard if they have started hiring for the new year yet.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Patent_Prospect on Feb 8^th, 2005, 9:44am

I think it depends on the various technology centers, as I have a start date in Spring 2005. I applied in Oct. 2004.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Steve on Feb 8^th, 2005, 11:06am

Regarding the above post from Patent_Prospects:

1) congratualtions on geeting the position

And

2) With which Art Unit are you starting in Spring 2005, and can you provide any insight for the success in the application/interview procedure

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Ayla on Feb 8^th, 2005, 1:46pm

on 02/07/05 at 10:24:40, Jonathan wrote:

I know government jobs are pretty inflexible when it comes to salary and benefits (they want to assure that everything is equal), but I figured I'd ask.
Does anyone know if new hires are always started at step one of their grade level or could one negotiate to start at a higher step - or even start at step one with the stipulation that you jump to a higher step after a trial period like some people negotiate for non-government jobs?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by JTripodo on Feb 8^th, 2005, 2:26pm

I had my interview at the PTO this weekend (Very Nice Facility!). They went over the wage scale with me and yes the steps within a pay grade are based upon your years of experience, GPA from school and what you are currently making in comparison.

All I can say about the people that I met is that they are very down to earth and it looks like a great environment to work in.

Now, I just hope that I get an offer ;)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Erin on Feb 8^th, 2005, 2:44pm

You can start at step 1 or step 10 it depends. For example, If you had a Ph.D. and were straight out of school then you would start at GS 11/1 but if you were making more than the starting rate you would start at GS 11/10. It really varies. You should tell them what you were making at your previous job and they will put you in that pay grade or higher. Usually a little higher.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO - veteran preferen
Post by daven on Feb 8^th, 2005, 5:31pm

How much does being a veteran help with getting hired? I know it's a factor but how much of one?
thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Feb 9^th, 2005, 7:14am

I have never heard of a veteran getting preference. Why would a veteran get preference over someone else more qualified?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Steve12 on Feb 11^th, 2005, 11:02am

I was wondering about the style of the interview at the USPTO. Do you sit with a group of pepole from a particular Art Unit or workgroup? What style of questions do they ask?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Steve12 on Feb 22^nd, 2005, 5:44am

Is this thread still active? Or are people less interested in working for the USPTO now?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Feb 26^th, 2005, 4:02pm

Steve12,
Yes, I'm interested! I haven't decided if I want to live near D.C. I saw a show recently on "sluggers", people who hitchhike to work in Alexandria due to the terrible traffic. People pick them up so they'll have enough people in the car to legally drive in the express lanes. I think I saw it on CNN or MSNBC.

I would love to work at the USPTO but don't want to develop heart problems just getting to work:) Is it really that bad up there?
thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Steve12 on Mar 1^st, 2005, 5:43am

I went to the TC 1600 job fair / interview last week, and I was very impressed with the people there. Very straight forward discussion of what it is like to work in the office.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by fredzy on Mar 14^th, 2005, 11:46am

I just received a job offer from the USPTO. As far as the step scale is concerned, they told me that the "regulation" is that they will match your current salary, another offer, or if you offer a "rare" skill they may increase the step you start at. I have a Ph.D. in biochemistry. So, apparently post-doctoral experience and/or a low paying job (like my current one) will NOT help you start higher. (Keep this in mind, those of you about to graduate)

I read elsewhere on the forum that if one works at USPTO for five years, you are automatically accepted to prosecute before the office. In other words, you do not need to pass the patent bar. Is this true ?

Also, what happened to patent_prospect: Did s/he decide on USPTO or the law firm ?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Jonathan on Mar 14^th, 2005, 12:53pm

Fredzy wrote: "I read elsewhere on the forum that if one works at USPTO for five years, you are automatically accepted to prosecute before the office. In other words, you do not need to pass the patent bar. Is this true ?"

The correct figure is four years and only applies to Examiners that completed their four years of service by July 26, 2004, was an examiner at the time of departure from the office, had successful performance reviews for at least the last two fiscal years of their employment period and was not under any oral or written warnings regarding their performance at the time of their departure from the patent office.

For all other Examiners that had not completed 4 years of service by July 26, 2004 or were hired after July 26, 2004: be an Examiner at the time of your departure from the patent office, receive a certificate of legal competency and negotiation authority, after receiving the certificate - have successful performance reviews for at least the last two fiscal years of their employment period and was not under any oral or written warnings regarding their performance at the time of their departure from the patent office.

So, newer Examiners still have be an Examiner for at least two years after receiving the certificate but I don't know how long it takes to get that certificate.

Refer to 37 C.F.R. 11.7 (d) for all the details.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Jonathan on Mar 14^th, 2005, 12:58pm

Additionally, the former Examiner needs to meet the same technical qualifications as non-examiners applying to take the patent bar exam.

Oddly enough, I suppose this means that a person with a scientific degree can be hired as an Examiner yet still not qualify to sit for the patent bar exam if they had to apply under something other than category A but did not have all the required coursework under their belt.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by p@tent.guy on Mar 14^th, 2005, 4:48pm

Negotiation authority usually comes after being a GS-13 for a year, though you have to pass the certification exam before you become a GS-13. This new standard ends up being far more difficult than the old standard and likely exists to keep examiners in the fold. As a former examiner, I wouldn't want to leave unless you need more action at work than reviewing patent applications. I left for an IP strategy job and hated making the decision.

If you wanted to work as hard as an agent while at the PTO, you could make much more than an agent. It's just that the overtime and bonuses aren't required. If you need the money, the work is there for you. If you don't, a flexible 40 hrs schedule with a good home life isn't too bad. So long as you stay on top of your production and quality, they'll give you almost all the freedom you want.

Flip side of course is that if either slips, all perks go away, and stay gone for months. No OT, probably no bonus', and definitely no flex time. It's a great place to work, but, despite public opinion, they don't put up with poor performance.

If you get an offer - take it, rent at the ****n at Carlyle for a year, walk to work, get promoted at 6 months, save up for a condo, don't buy a car, join the PTOS, take the free shuttle to Old Town and the waterfront in the summers, get promoted 12 months after your 6 month promotion, buy the condo which will be built in 2008 by a metro stop but not on the green line, see if you can hit your 130% bonus, get it for the first time, dance, find a nice girl in Olson's bookstore on the waterfront, marry her, move into said condo, live happily ever after.

p@tent.guy

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Patent_Prospect on Mar 14^th, 2005, 7:10pm

Hello all,
Sorry for the delay in responding. I decided to take the law form job for a variety of particular reasons, mainly personal. Law firm offered better pay, although the PTO would have matched to within 9% or so (I only qualify for a GS-11, step 10, given my particulars). The law firm will pay for law school right out of the gate (PTO states that you must have 1 year of service, and must repay law school with time at the PTO, so four years of law school means 8 years of employment, plus 1 for a total of 9).
Although I am somewhat nervous about adjusting billable hour requirements, I assume that is something that I will have to face eventually, so it might as well be now than later. Finally, I have never lived in DC, so I wanted to get the experience that could get me back to my hometown should we not like it. I assume that my prospects are far better with law firms if I have law firm experience, in general, than with PTO experience, but only time will tell. I hope I made the right decision, but hindsight is always 20/20. Regardless, I am stoked to get back into the IP field. Good luck, everyone, with all your prospects, and I'll see you on the board!

Patent_Prospect, Out.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Steve12 on Apr 11^th, 2005, 10:54am

How often to the training classes for new examiners start. Is there a new one every month.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by jeb on Apr 11^th, 2005, 11:53am

It depends on when the hiring needs are filled. They may go for 6 months or more without starting a new initial training session and then start several initial training classes back to back.

Typically when congress releases the USPTO budget they can hire a certain number of new examiners. Each tech center hires the number they are allotted and when they reach a specific class size of 15 or so then they schedule the initial training.

Also, the training for biotech/chem, electrical etc. is unique to those arts so the training for the different technologies occurs at different times depending on where you work.

I hope this is helpful.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Access Patent Group (APG) on Apr 12^th, 2005, 8:26pm

hi!

EE is always hot in USPTO. You must have PhD. in order to be hired as Biotech Examiner.

sincerely,

Thien Tran
MSEE - Registered Patent Agent #47,351
http://www.accesspatentgroup.com

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by jdhawk05 on Apr 14^th, 2005, 3:29pm

I have an ME degree and and will have my law degree this May. ME doesnt seem to be quite as hot as EE or biotech and law firms dont seem to be foaming at the mouth for my background. Would it be a step in the wrong direction to work at the PTO for a few years? How does having a law degree figure into hiring decisions at the PTO? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Jdhawk05

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by sirkut on Apr 14^th, 2005, 3:42pm

Having your law degree will vary from art unit to art unit. Some of the managers see it as a positive while others see it as a negative because they believe you are only there to get the training and experience for a year or so and then leave.

Read the rest of this thread and make a decision on your own.

This horse has been beat to death.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Apr 14^th, 2005, 4:31pm

Hi,

Does anyone have any tips for an interview with the USPTO? Looks like i'll be flying to D.C. soon and was wondering if anyone had any tips/info/other. Also, I'm taking the Patent Bar next month, and have read various opinions on this board of whether it helps or not in getting a job as an examiner, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus on that. Any thoughts or more opinions?

thanks!
-hr

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by melwrc on Apr 14^th, 2005, 11:52pm

to jdhawk, go with a firm before falling back on a PTO job. I'm an ME and managed to find an agent position (wasn't even an agent yet) and am going PT law school.
The general rule is that once you have a jd, go straight for a firm job if that's where you want to be. The exception to that rule is if you can't get into any reasonably respected firm (not necessarily a mega firm, just not a job as an apprentice to some solo practice). Then a PTO job might open up some doors, but some examiner experience, while better than nothing, doesn't shine like a big gold star on a resume.

The earlier postings on pay don't take into account how fast pay raises come with experience at a firm. Mine has gone up a full 50% in a yr and half. My base (1800 hr billable req) is far better than what I'd have at the PTO in the same amount of time, assuming max promotions (and ignoring the fact that my cost of living is 30% less). And for bonuses, I don't know how much work is required for that "130% bonus" that was mentioned for examiners, but patent firms offer very nice bonuses based on hrs over the min. A common amount is 30-35% of your bill rate times the extra hrs.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by anon on Apr 15^th, 2005, 7:44am

I think each group is different. For instance, the culture in the electrical and mechanical areas may be less sophisticated as that in the biotech groups because many of the people working in ME and EE start straight out of undergrad and are young. Whereas those in biotechnology and Chem have PhDs, law degrees and serious industry experience so the atmosphere is more professional. The work is likely to be more sophisticated by nature too so one can get really good experience there. The pay is not as great as outside the goverment but to start a career with solid experience at the pto will likely give you a good foundation for your career.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Apr 15^th, 2005, 10:50am

Nobody really answered the original questions (what is the job like and how hard is it to get hired?) in much detail.

I think it would be useful if someone who was hired as a patent examiner would walk through their interview process timeline and/or a typical day in the life of an examiner.

Even better would be if a hiring manager would go through the process of choosing an applicant, and also say what kind of education and experience the applicants that get hired usually have, and maybe some helpful advice for those looking to get a job as an examiner.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by jdhawk05 on Apr 15^th, 2005, 2:26pm

melwrc,

Well with graduation approaching...my options seem to be dwindling and the likelihood of getting a job in a firm seems slim...

I wonder if the responsibilities for an examiner with a jd is different than that of one with a technical background...also being from the midwest it seems that maybe my law degree wont carry as far east as someone in school in the DC area...

Does your firm get a lot of mechanical patent work? or do know of the firms that do a lot of mechanical work? where are they? Im still hopeful, but the examiner job doesnt seem like it would be a bad alternative...good hours...less stress....good training... did u feel u got good training from your law firm? ( i have never heard of being hired as a patent agent without being licensed first)... thanks for any additional info and good luck in law school

jdhawk

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by melwrc on Apr 15^th, 2005, 3:28pm

jdhawk, send an email over to the address for my acct. we can talk further.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by New examiner on Apr 15^th, 2005, 7:32pm

The interview I had with the PTO for an examiner's position was really easy. Basically, the guy was like, here's what you can expect from the job, is this something you think you would be interested in doing? From talking to other people who were hired in the same group as me, their first interview went pretty much the same way for them also. Oh, they'll also ask what sort of experience you've had artwise and what sort of interests you have, i.e. what would you like to examine if you were to be hired.

I can't post my whole message since it's too long, so I'll have to break it up.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by New examiner on Apr 15^th, 2005, 7:33pm

The second interview was with the person who was actually interested in hiring you into their group, your future SPE. That interview was more along the lines of your SPE feeling you out to see how much you know about the area of the art you're wanting to get hired into. They'll let you know a bit more what to expect from the job. Overall, both interviews should be the easiest you've ever had unless you've never interviewed before. They really need people, so unless you come off like a total idiot or give the impression you won't last long, you should have no problem getting hired. You'll also get the talk about pay, promotions, ect. from either one or both the people you interview with.

If you manage it get an interview, don't sweat it, the hard part is over. Usually if you go to one of the job fairs they have, you have a better chance of getting hired than if you just submit your resume randomly.

.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by New examiner on Apr 15^th, 2005, 7:34pm

After you get hired, you'll go through 3 weeks of training, to learn some of the basic stuff. After that, you'll get your first real case. Most people take about 2 weeks with their first case and still will have to redo the first 5 or so cases as a second action non-final 3-6 months later. That's ok though. The more cases you see and do, the easier it'll get and the more you'll learn, artwise and procedure-wise. You'll learn what to do in your writing, the best way to write rejections, the best ways to search, and the best way to allocate your time. The important thing is to not worry so much about perfecting every case that by the end of 6 months you're still only doing 2 cases every bi-week.

After you're there a while your typical week should be something along the lines of you start out the week looking over a case. You make sure all the paperworks are ok, then you check priority data to find out the priority date for the application you're working on is. Check the inventor, assignee, and note any other pending cases the inventor might have you might need to check for double patenting. Then, you review the claims quickly so you can see what to notice in the specification. Then, you review the abstract and specification. Note any errors you see in the claims and disclosure. This should take you about half a day depending on how familiar you are with the subject matter. Then you write the objections and easy rejections like 112 issues. This might take you about 2 hours, unless it's really messed up. Then review any information they've disclosed in their information disclosure statement. You don't have to do a thorough job with this, just quickly consider what they've submitted. Sometimes, they'll screw up and give you the art you'll need for a rejection and you'll want to take a closer look at the art later. Then you review the claims a bit more to determine what the claims are saying. Try not to get colored by what is disclosed in the spec though as this will narrow your interpretation too much and make searching harder. I still find myself doing that sometimes. Review the claims and note key words you might search for or subject matter you might look into. From those key words, look into what classes and subclasses you might search. Think a bit more about seach strategies. At this point, it might be the end of day 1 in the week. Next day, review your search strategy a bit and start searching or get help from someone a bit for suggestions on strategies if you're totally lost. DO NOT GO TO ANOTHER EXAMINER FOR HELP IF YOU DID NOT READ TO KNOW WHAT THE INVENTION IS ABOUT. Searches might take about half a day. This is the important thing, don't spend too much time at this point reading art you've found. Note them to review later. After half a day, you'll spend the other half reviewing the art you've found to decide which are good for rejecting which claims. Pick the best ones out of the batch you've got and plan a rejection strategy. The next half day might be spent writing the rest of the rejections. You'll also need to worry about 101 issues after you've read the spec and review the claims again, so don't forget to make 101 rejections in the first office action also. After you've finished your rejections, it's just a matter of paperwork that need to be completed to get the rejecton or allowance mailed. For one application, that was about two and a half day's worth of work. Then the process repeats for the next application. Sometimes you'll be able to go faster, sometimes slower. After about 3-6 months, you'll also start to get back responses to your old actions. You'll also have to do responses to those before they get too old. Once you're more experienced, I hear they take about two hours to do. Not only do you have to worry about getting your responses out on time, you also have to worry about getting in all your counts for the bi-week. They'll explain how the count system works in training, but basically, the higher you are in grade, the more work you need to get done each bi-week, so you'll have to learn how to be more efficient. That's my typical work experience so far, but I've only been at the PTO 6 months. Hopefully, I'll get more experienced soon and will be able to go faster.

Oh, there's also the occasional interviews, preparing for interviews, and getting cases dumped on you at the last moment because some examiner quit and their cases are over due or they're behind and your SPE needs you to bail them out so the group doesn't look bad

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by pto wannabe on Apr 15^th, 2005, 9:18pm

is there a silicon valley office of the pto? or is everything in dc?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Richard Liu on Apr 15^th, 2005, 11:03pm

USPTO is only in DC. There was a USPTO library in Sunnyvale, now they merged everything in Sunnyvale City Lib.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by niczon on Apr 16^th, 2005, 9:58am

on 02/01/05 at 15:23:13, Jonathan wrote:

POPA is a double edged sword. They do as much good as bad sometimes. Sometimes they're fantastic. Sometime... well.. lets just say they actually defended an examiner that was fired for trying to deck his supervisor. On the other hand they fight a good fight for examining hour flexibility.

Most long-time examiners and primaries don't put much focus of reliance on pop, and instead rely on their ability and their relationship with their SPE to get what they want. Many actually look at you sideways when you mention popa.

As far as proteciton in the PTO.... Nothing beats having a good SPE... and nothing beats you down like a bad one.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by niczon on Apr 16^th, 2005, 10:08am

on 04/15/05 at 19:33:26, New examiner wrote:

They really need people, so unless you come off like a total idiot or give the impression you won't last long, you should have no problem getting hired.

.

There is a reason for this, and its not just pay. When you interview, be sure to keep your eyes open, look around and talk to people. Not all TCs and Art Units are the same. I've known art units with turnover at 0% over 3 years, and some with 50% each year. Some are social and others are introverted. Some people are not cut out to be cogs in the government machine, others love the privacy, freedom, and reliability of the job.

An interview is a two way process, and if the environment is not for you, make a note to yourself.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Jonathan on Apr 16^th, 2005, 11:18am

on 04/16/05 at 09:58:57, niczon wrote:

Yep, sounds like most unions (POPA sounds like a union, don't know if it technically is as it seems membership is not a requirement). Their purpose is noble but sometimes that purpose probably gets clouded.

Reminds me of a time when I had an intern job in college at a computer chip factory. I was doing some tests on semiconductor manufacturing equipment and needed to switch out some gas lines. Since this was "union job" (doing anything to a machine), I had to wait an hour for the designated union person to do a 2 minute task with a wrench.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Apr 16^th, 2005, 12:07pm

Excellent posts New Examiner!! There's a lot of great information there.

Some follow up questions:

What TC are you? What are the average qualifications for the new examiners in your TC (education, work experience, and maybe even the total occupational score from JARS (where you put a number by the subjects you have experience in))?

How many counts do examiners need per bi-week at each GS level? (I'm guessing that you get 1 count for the first office action, and then another count for the final action, even if they are both the same action.)

Also, what was the basic timeframe for the interview process? In other words, how long after you applied did you get your first interview? How long between interviews? How long did it take to get your job offer? How long after the offer before you began the training class? Did they fly you to DC for the second interview? Or were they both phone interviews?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Apr 16^th, 2005, 2:20pm

Yes New Examiner, thanks!

I did the JARS thing this last week and sent in my resume and transcripts. I called and talked with the office and they said that they do phone interviews but it REALLY helps if you can come out to D.C. (i live on the left coast). This was before i had sent in my stuff or filled out the JARS info, so i wasn't really ready to book a flight yet - don't know if they will pay for that.

My JARS put me GS-11, which surprised me because while i do have a grad degree it isn't in my area of expertise. I do have 10 years of experience with lots of other extras, so that must enter into the equation.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by melwrc on Apr 16^th, 2005, 2:43pm

"Then review any information they've disclosed in their information disclosure statement. You don't have to do a thorough job with this, just quickly consider what they've submitted. Sometimes, they'll screw up and give you the art you'll need for a rejection and you'll want to take a closer look at the art later."

New examiner,
Disclosing relevant prior art in IDS's is a requirement if any are known by the applicant, the atty/agent, or anyone else involved in the prosecution of the application ("duty of candor," and "inequitable conduct" should you be found to have failed that duty renders the patent and any child patents unenforceable). It's not a screw up unless the atty/agent was inept and actually drafted claims that they won't be able to convince an examiner to allow. Sometimes a new reference comes to light after submitting the app, such as when a publication of an application by a competitor happens. Then, the agent/atty still has to submit it, but knows that some amendments will be needed.

After the filing date, if I submit an IDS that I know screws my current claim set, I'll submit a preliminary amendment before the first OA, or if the app is involved in the prosecution already, I'll draft the amendments and wait for the examiner's rejections in the next OA (sometimes the examiner gives the surprise allowance).

Good luck with the examiner job. I try to be nice to the examiners because many are placed under a load of stress and have to deal with big headed atty/agents berating them for not allowing their client's app. Both sides of the prosecution game are under pressure, so we've all got to get along. We also have to deal with each other more than once because each art unit is fairly small, so a big client filing multiple apps in the same area can result in having the same examiner for later apps.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by New examiner on Apr 16^th, 2005, 10:17pm

Everything melwrc pointed out is very true, the applicant has a duty to disclose relevant prior art. The type of screw up I had in mind though was more along the lines of the agent/attorney submitted something they didn't think read right on a set of claims when in fact it did or maybe they hoped the examiner wouldn't notice. I had a case the other day where that happened and the attorney didn't realize it till we had our interview. I explained why I rejected the entire set of claims using something the first attorney who first worked on the case submitted (102b rejections) and he agreed that my agruments were valid. I guess the guy who originally drafted the claims wasn't very familiar with the art. Lucky for the second attorney I'm allowing him to do a supplimental amendment after our interview instead of just doing a final action since he didn't make any changes to the first set of claims in response to my first office action--he had the case dumped on him at the last moment I guess, which I can sympathize with since it's happened to me a few times already.

I've only had 4 interviews so far and so far the attornies were really nice. There's rude people on both sides of the game and hopefully I won't have to deal with any for a long time. The thing I try to keep in mind is that we're just doing our jobs and sometimes our jobs conflict. No need to take it out on the opposing side though.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by New examiner on Apr 16^th, 2005, 11:01pm

As to the other questions:

I'm in TC 2100. There really isn't any "average qualification" for new examiners in my workgroup that I've seen. For instance, take the group I went through training with. Two were towards the later parts of their career--one guy told me he's just wanting a job he can be secure in for a few more years till retirement. Most just had a bachelors. I was probably the only one with a masters. Some had worked for a few years already. Some just graduated college or maybe had at most two years of experience at most before getting hired at the PTO.

I wouldn't go too much by the JARS score thing unless you've had what most people would consider actual full time job experience and many years of it. 10 years of experience would get you placed at the GS11 level. I myself scored as a GS-11 based on what I put in, but got offered to be hired on either as a GS9 step 1 based on me having a masters or GS7, max step based on just by a bachelors and my grades, ignoring my masters degree. I had a lot of experience since I worked a lot of part time jobs, had my own IT business for a while, and co-oped while in school, which was why I scored high on the JARS test, but I was considered a new graduate, so didn't get offered anything more than GS9. I chose to go with GS9 and actually lower pay since it's at a lower step as it would allow me to move up in the ranks faster in the long run. Others choose to take a lower grade level than they can start out in as it allows them more room to learn the job before they're expected to contribute as many counts per bi-week.

For the interview process, like I said before, if you do the job fair thing, the turn around time is fast. I called in the beginning of the week to set up the interview at the job fair, had the interview the same week. My office mate mailed in his resume and they got back to him about 9 months after he had already gotten hired on via going through the job fair. After the first interview, the second interview was about two weeks after that. My second interview was over the phone--most people I talked to had their second one over the phone also. My first one I drove over 8 hours to do the interview on site. They didn't fly me. They also don't offer relocation reimbursment any more. I pretty much got a job offer right after the second interview, but they wouldn't actually say it and make it official till a few weeks afterwards--HR and their slow paperwork. After you got your offer, you're given a list of dates you can choose to start your training and your job. Could be anywhere from as soon as two weeks to up to 6 months. In my opinion, it really does help if you go interview on site as it shows them you're more interested in getting hired. I was a wreak at my first interview since I had only gotten about two hours of sleep the night before driving up to do the interview--insomnia, but I guess the guy I interviewed with saw I was really interested in being hired as I was willing to drive such a long distance just for a 20 minutes interview. They won't pay for you to come out here.

I'll go into some of the basics of the count system now:
The way the count system works is you get your first count for your first action. Then you get your second count when the application either gets approved or abandoned or they do an RCE. So after you do a final, you don't get your second count. Any other action you do after your first action, you don't get a count for, not even your final one.

How many counts you're expected to do each biweek depends on the art unit you're in and your grade level. Each art unit has a different expectancy level. The higher you are in grade though, the more counts you're expected to do. In my unit for example, a GS7 does around 3.7 or 4, I can't remember which. A GS9 does 4.25 and GS11 does maybe 4.75 each bi-week.

Time for bed now. Sorry if any of what I wrote is garbled. I'm sleepy and don't have time to double check my writing.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by JARS JARS Binks on Apr 18^th, 2005, 8:36am

I, also, want to thank you New Examiner.

I have a question for any other examiners. Has anybody actually been hired through JARS? How long did it take for them to call you?

According to this:

http://showcase.monstertrak.monster.com/cgi-bin/new/showcase.pl?page=stu_show&emp_id=edlkcc

Quote:

How long after submitting a resume should candidates expect to hear from you?

Typically 1-4 weeks, depending on what the hiring quota is for the area of your expertise. We hold weekly hiring sessions for supervisors to review paper resumes and JARS (hiring database) applications, plus the JARS applications are available 24/7 for supervisors to review from their workstations.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by peanut butter on Apr 20^th, 2005, 4:19pm

Yes, I was hired through JARS. I heard back from them about a week after sending it electronically.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Apr 25^th, 2005, 8:28pm

How did you hear back from them - did they call you or contact you through the mail? I also applied through JARS a couple of weeks ago...

thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Steve12 on Apr 27^th, 2005, 5:34am

I also applied through JARS. My original application was in June 2004, I first heard back from the office about a job fair in Feb. 2005, then got an offer in April 2005 to start in July of 2005. So that is a solid 12 months for the entire process.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Axistek on May 2^nd, 2005, 12:48pm

Thanks for all the info New examiner.

I currently have an offer to work for the USPTO, but I still have my doubts if that is what I really want to do with my life. Since I have no interest in law or intellectual property in general I'm not sure if the experience I would gain at the USPTO would help me for anything else. Any opinons? Should I take the offer or look for something else?

Thanks! :)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on May 2^nd, 2005, 3:19pm

Some law firms don't even consider USPTO experience to be that valuable. I doubt it's going to help you much, if any, in getting a job as a scientist/engineer.

If you aren't interested in law or intellectual property, the USPTO is probably not where you want to have your career. Since we might be heading into another recession in a year or two, that is basically the choice you are making - whether or not you want to make a career out of the PTO. If you don’t like the PTO and quit in a couple years, you might not be able to get another job for a while.

I think it's pretty rare for someone to be a PTO lifer. Usually the PTO is more of a stepping stone for those who can't get into a law firm yet, but it is an appealing career for certain types of people. Only you know if this is the place you want to work or if you'd rather get a job in your field.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by jdhawk05 on May 2^nd, 2005, 11:06pm

Any examiners browsing this message board? I'd like to hear your alls take on working at the PTO, the experience and training you felt you received, and how many attorneys work there as examiners...

Guest, I see many firms that require examiner experience...I find it difficult to believe that experience at the PTO is a negative, but maybe you can fill me in...

One other thing...anyone read USA Today today (5/2)? There was an article about the PTO adding 900 examiner positions...any idea of how they will allocate those positions among the different technology groups?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by anon on May 3^rd, 2005, 8:35am

1. Guest does not know what he is talking about. PTO experience is rarely a negative. This is true even in litigation because much of patent litigation is based on what goes on in prosecution.

2. I have heard that the vast majority of the new hires are for the electrial arts and computer sci. arts.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by melwrc on May 3^rd, 2005, 9:34am

In defense of the recent guest, he said SOME firms don't consider PTO examiner experience to be that valuable, and that is true. He did not say it was a negative.

Axistek said that he wasn't even sure about doing IP law at all, and was wondering if examiner experience would help in any other way (e.g. as an engineer). And I would agree with guest that being an examiner would in no way help in general engineering or any other non-IP area. As an examiner, you do not engineer anything. You read big technical disclosures for form. Time pressure keeps them from truly learning the invention, so rejections are based on quick reads through similar looking prior art. There is no design work, testing, technical writing, or other engineering type activity as an examiner.
If you later decide to be an engineer, working at a non-engineering job would be a negative because you would be further removed from your school and have the same engineering experience level as a fresh graduate. You could go for the maturity angle and at least having work experience, but gov't work is completely different from working in a corporate environment as an engineer.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by someone out there on May 15^th, 2005, 10:33pm

This is the first time I've ever posted here...I thought I should provide some input as a PTO insider.

I'm a patent examiner in the Biotech/Chem Technology Center and contrary to what has been posted here, my tech center has hired Masters and Bachelors level people in the past few years. So there is hope for those out there seeking placement in the Biotech center. I only have a Masters, and I am certainly glad I went ahead and applied for the job despite being told that the Biotech Center only hires Phds.

However, in my Biotech orientation class (I've only been at the office for a short while), the majority were Phds...there were a significant number of former postdocs (plenty of former NIH employees) and quite a few lawyers. Very much unlike the other Tech centers, where the majority of the new hires only have a Bachelors and are more likely fresh out of undergrad.

If you're interested in obtaining a position as a patent examiner at the PTO, I would recommend contacting the appropriate hiring coordinators listed on the PTO website. I emailed one hiring coordinator to set up an informational interview in order to find out more about patent examining and possibilities of employment. He kindly accepted my request for an in-person interview, and though his Tech center (not Biotech) was mostly done with their hiring for the fiscal year, he invited me to email him my resume following my visit. Only a week later I heard from a supervisor from the Biotech center requesting an interview. Then, a couple of weeks later, I was also contacted by a supervisor in the Tech center of the hiring coordinator I spoke to...apparently something had opened up. Clearly making good contacts will lead to great results in seeking employment at the PTO or anywhere else for that matter. A bit of luck also helps.

I really like the job and am very pleased with my choice in coming to the office (no regrets... this is normally not typical for me in terms of other major life choices I have made in the past).

Good luck to all applicants. I hope this helps.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Harry Chu on May 16^th, 2005, 2:04pm

Question:
Does PTO hire experienced people?
I have 19 years of industry experience in communications (EE mostly)
Thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on May 16^th, 2005, 2:35pm

What are the interviews with supervisors like?

Do they grill you with technical questions? or is it more along the lines of them seeing if you really want to work there, since they have so many people that quit after a short period of time?

Do they really hire a lot of new graduates? I've heard lots of people say that. Is it true? Is there anybody who got hired into TC 2100, 2600 or 2800 straight out of college?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on May 16^th, 2005, 2:37pm

By straight out of college, I mean with a BS only - no graduate degree and no experience.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac Clark on May 16^th, 2005, 6:42pm

The TC that hire electrical engineers hire both experienced
people and new graduates. The interviewers are going to
probe as necessary to see if you can understand their technical
areas. If your transcript or experience indicates lots of
relevant background, the technical probing will be over quickly.
The also want to make sure you can express yourself coherently,
and that you can handle an environment were production is
stressed.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Examiner Wannabe on May 17^th, 2005, 12:36pm

Great thread! Thank you very much to everybody who contributed.

What are the hot areas at the PTO?

Do they still give recruitment bonuses for Electrical/Computer Engineers and Computer Scientists?

Why do they ask in JARS if you are a registered patent agent? Does that help you get the job?

What is considered a lot of experience to them? How do they test your communication skills in the interview setting? What are some typical interview questions? Or do they just ask the standard generic interview questions, like "why do you want to work here?", "what are your weaknesses?” etc.?

When they say casual dress code, do they mean business casual? Or do they mean actual casual? Can you come in wearing shorts and flip-flops? t-shirt and jeans?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by chuckie_cheese on May 17^th, 2005, 3:02pm

I was wondering if those of you currently working as examiners put in a standard work day (8 hours) or are you putting in a lot of overtime based on the workload ?

Also, how does the overtime work ?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by PTO Prospect on May 19^th, 2005, 10:26am

I'm getting mixed messages here.

It sounds like it is very competitive to get into the PTO, but everybody says the interview is a cakewalk. Has anybody interviewed and not gotten the job, or heard of someone who has? Or has somebody tried to get hired, failed and later made it in?

On the one hand, they have a lot of people leave in after a short time, but I've never heard much about why people don't like it. Has anybody quit the PTO for a reason other than a more lucrative job offer in the private sector?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by MujaStar on May 19^th, 2005, 1:25pm

Thank you for your post "someone out there." I think I might take that approach rather than using JARS. If you don't mind, can you post a bit of info on your background i.e. education/work experience? Thank you.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on May 19^th, 2005, 4:07pm

on 05/19/05 at 13:25:17, MujaStar wrote:

You'll probably have to submit your paperwork via JARS anyway. I have been told this by many people there.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Hj on May 19^th, 2005, 4:36pm

You HAVE to post on JARS. There is no way around it.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mistersilver on May 20^th, 2005, 12:35am

HJ is correct.

I wanted to tell everyone who contributed to this forum/thread thanks!

I do have questions for the patent examiner at the USPTO and people living in D.C.

1. What advices would you give to a new examiner? I want to be prepare and well informed before I start working.
2. How much time should I spend reviewing a case for the first 6 months (GS-7 Step 10) and after the accelerated promotion. I want to be the best and not underperform. I really look forward to the USPTO..many thanks in advance!
This is off the subject but---(sorry but I am NOT familiar with the area)
3. I am relocating in June and wanted to know is it more fun to live in D.C. or Alexandria. I realized the rent will be high and the metro ride will be around 30 minutes (riding from D.C.), but I want to make the best in life while I am young.
4. What condos do you recommend to buy? In previous post someone mentioned to avoid buying a condo along the Green line?--why???

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by chuckie_cheese on May 22^nd, 2005, 12:30pm

mistersilver

I just relocated from S.Fla. for my 5/31 start date. As far as location is concerned I noticed that the D.C. Metro area is pretty similar to South Fla. in terms of the neighboring cities proximity to each other. The huge difference is the transit system. I decided to rent in Arlington which is about 4 metro stops or 10min from the PTO and a few stops outside of D.C.

While living in South Fla. I was driving about 110 miles round trip so I had to get up extremely early to beat the traffic or leave pretty late to avoid it. Based on my experience I would try to avoid moving too far from the office or too far from the metro. If you decide to commute believe me it will eventually get tiring and impact your energy levels at work.

As far as the price of housing is concerned...whew!!!

I looked at a few places before deciding so if you need any first hand impressions of some of the places I visited before deciding you can e-mail me at shedrickc@yahoo.com. Also, take a look at apartmentratings.com if you decide to rent.

hope this helps

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac Clark on May 22^nd, 2005, 4:49pm

About the commute. In VA you can ride the VRE from as far south
as Fredericksburg. There is a VRE stop at essentially the
same place as the Metro stop near the PTO.

Of course your commute would still be lengthy, but if you are
not actually driving, the commute is still tolerable, and
you may find housing at a more reasonable price than in
Arlington, Alexandria, or DC.

As far as the time to spend on a case, the amount of time depends
on what Art Unit you belong to. Some technical areas are presumed
to be more difficult and thu allow examiners more hours per case.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Harry Chu on May 23^rd, 2005, 8:18am

I was asked to fill out some forms including a security form during my interview. Is filling out the forms mandatory no matter what? I took one of the forms home because I didn't have all the information and told the interviewer that I would mail it. But I am wondering now whether I still have to fill this form out since I have not been formally offered a job yet though the interview went well. Anyone has any idea or has any experience like this? Many thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by C3PTO on May 23^rd, 2005, 12:31pm

You can't work at the PTO without a clearance. They can't make a formal job offer to anybody until the person actually has been issued the clearance.

It takes a lot of work to do a background check. They aren't going to pass out those forms like candy. If they gave you that form, it pretty much means you have the job, pending the results of the background check.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mistersilver on May 23^rd, 2005, 2:49pm

RodgersDa is correct. The PTO have to do a mandatory background check. Usually they will require a potential candidate to fill out the Pre-appointment security form. Once you have been given an official offer you will need to complete and bring the New Employee Accession Package with you on your start date. HTH

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mistersilver on May 23^rd, 2005, 2:51pm

To Harry Chu
Link to the forms:
http://www.usptocareers.gov/forms.asp

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by someone out there on May 29^th, 2005, 3:14pm

Lots of questions out there...I posted earlier this month (patent examiner working in Biotech&Chem Tech Center)

I'd prefer not posting much info about myself here on the board...

Yes, you do have to use JARS, but I filled it out after my interview with the Biotech supervisors...it's not required for the interview (my resume had been forwarded to the supervisors). For peace of mind, I would fill out JARS as soon as possible (I procrastinated). In my case, I'm glad I did procrastinate, since one of the supervisors gave me input as to how I should rate myself in the portion concerning my skill set. I was told that applicants sometimes under-rate themselves, and this can interfere with the hiring process on the HR end.

Right after my interview, one of the supervisors emailed me the forms for the security clearance. The supervisors can not officially offer you a position...they have to indicate to HR who they want to hire. Then, HR has to receive your completed security clearance forms, transcripts, and info through JARS before an official offer can be extended. The security clearance forms require you to list all your addresses in the past 5 years, people who have known you at those addresses, additional names of people who have known you for at least 5 years , etc. The full security check doesn't actually occur until after you are hired, after your orientation day. During orientation, your security clearance forms are actually returned to you with notes about discrepancies for you to correct that day.

You don't need to prepare for the job before starting out...you'll be receiving plenty of training. You'll have about 2 weeks of training, then you are sent to your office to start examining. Throughout the first year, you will be attending additional classes offered by your tech center. For instance, during the second month at the PTO, I remember spending about 3 to 6 hours each week in classes.

The job is not a piece of cake...it is challenging considering the time constraints. A patent examiner is on a production system...production is based on the number of counts you receive per biweek. For example, you receive a count when you submit a first office action (examine for novelty, etc). Depending on your supervisory patent examiner (supervisor, SPE), I suggest not worrying about your production during your first 4 months of the job. Your concern should be about learning the ropes and understanding the job...this will be your only opportunity to have the liberty to take your time with the job. After those first few months, your SPE will be more closely looking at your production...that's when you need to try to ramp up your production. You are a probationary employee during your first year...upon your first year anniversary at the office, your SPE will decide whether to retain you...this is largely based on your production.

As a new examiner, you have a mentor who reviews your work and offers training...it could be a primary examiner in your art unit, or your art unit's supervisory patent examiner (SPE). The amount of guidance you receive really depends on your mentor. Do as your mentor says...follow your mentor's approach to the job and perspective on matters. Not to say that you can't disagree with your mentor, but keep in mind that your mentor is signing your work...your mentor is partly responsible for any work you submit, so it's important that he/she is comfortable with your office actions. If you disagree or are confused about your mentor's input, explain your point of view and ask questions. Don't be antagonistic, and be considerate of their time.

About the interviews...from what I hear, they vary a bit...I know that some supervisors like to ask some technical questions, but some would just want you to describe your duties at previous jobs (internships, research experiences, full-time positions). I don't really remember my interview (several SPEs interviewed me at the same time).

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by gabe on May 31^st, 2005, 7:48pm

I am likely taking a job and moving up to DC mid july.

Anybody looking for a roomate? I assume there are tons ofs us relocating to USPTO. I am young, I don't want/need to live alone waisting more of my pay cheek on resnt.

E-mail me if you are interested in a roomate. I have no idea yet where to live. Walking to work woulds be nice... cheap rent (in DC!) would be nice...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mistersilver on Jun 1^st, 2005, 4:56pm

I am also looking for potential roommates. I will fly into DC tomorrow, and if you're interested in roooming with a 23y. male then email me. Thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Jun 4^th, 2005, 1:09pm

So you need to fill out the SF-85 form before you can work at the USPTO?

If that SF-85 form is not the same form I filled out for a security clearance, it is almost exactly alike. I'm pretty sure that's the same form, but it's been a while.

The clearance process took a very long time. How long does the USPTO background check take?

Besides that, it sounds like a pretty quick hiring process by government standards, as long as you can go to a job fair or talk to a hiring coordinator.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Examine Her on Jun 10^th, 2005, 11:17am

on 02/07/05 at 11:16:21, Erin wrote:

You can also get overtime for anything over 40 hours a week as well as bonuses.

What kind of bonuses are available? When can you start earning them and what do you need to do to get them?

When can you start working paid overtime?

Title: Would current DoD secret make it easier?
Post by daven on Jun 10^th, 2005, 7:14pm

I currently have a secret DoD clearance. I believe the very long form I filled out was SF-86. Do you think the secret clearance would transfer or would I still need another background check performed by the patent office?
thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO / Off topic
Post by Jonathan on Jun 11^th, 2005, 8:33am

RogersDA: Congratulations on becoming a full intelproplaw.com member by posting over 100 times! ;D

Or have some of the 100s of green men that follow you been posting in your name?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Jun 13^th, 2005, 9:15pm

What is the dress code at the USPTO for examiners?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by JMcGuire on Jun 14^th, 2005, 7:18pm

Regarding the one time accelerated promotion, is an examiner promoted from one grade to the next at the same step? i.e GS-7/10 to a GS-9/10

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by summer on Jun 15^th, 2005, 10:45am

I am an international student and consider working in USPTO after completing my Ph. D. in 4 months. I would be able to have OPT for a working permit then. My question is am I qualified to work in USPTO? given that I could only have working visa (H-1) instead of a citizen or green card holder. Thanks!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by wc on Jun 15^th, 2005, 11:24am

Summer,

You have to be a US citizen to work for the USPTO.

JMcGuire,

A grade level promotion is treated like a two in-grade step increase. GS 7/10 falls between GS 9/4 and GS 9/5 in terms of salary. So, GS 7/10 will be promoted to GS 9/7 (two step increase from 9/5). As far as I understand, this is true of any promotion, not just the one time accelarated promotion.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by summer on Jun 15^th, 2005, 1:30pm

Thanks, WC. That is what I thought so. :-[

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Chad Petit on Jun 15^th, 2005, 4:01pm

I will be graduating in December with a PhD in molecular biology (also have B.S. in Biochemistry, Chemistry, and Microbiology) and was wondering what are my chances of getting a job offer if I applied.

Also since I will graduating in December, when would be the best time to apply?

From what I read, I would start out at GS-11-1. Am I correct in saying that once you are a full examiner (3 years I think) you are payed at a GS-13 level? In between that time, how long does it take to move up lets say from GS-11-1 to GS-11-2? Thanks for any information or advice anyone can give.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by JMcGuire on Jun 15^th, 2005, 4:10pm

Yeah thanks. I was wondering the same thing. How often are people promoted between the different steps within their grade?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Chad on Jun 15^th, 2005, 8:29pm

Am I reading it correctly that it would take you 18 years to go from lets say GS-13-1 to GS-13-10? Is it me or does that seem like a long time? ???

That would be 18 years to go from 78,018 to 101,421.

Well I guess that makes sense because you would be in the same position....and not being promoted. Maybe it is not as bad as I first thought.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Chad on Jun 15^th, 2005, 10:15pm

Say you become a rare USPTO lifer....how high can you move up? Also, at a GS-14 (primary examiner) how does the government pay compare to private industry?

GS-14-1 is about $92,194 for 2005...what could you get in industry at that level?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by GT on Jun 16^th, 2005, 10:35am

Most of the lifers are high in the scale of GS-15s. A lot of them will work overtime in addition to the normal salary and make much more.

Also, when they retire, I believe, they get half of their salary for the rest of their lives.

The pay scales are at the link below.

http://www.popa.org/temp/salary2005.txt

The pay scal for the USPTO is the highest of all goverment employees. So I think the benefits may pan out for some who decide to make a career of it... Especially the retirement deal.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by 2856 on Jun 16^th, 2005, 2:51pm

RogersDA is corect.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Chad on Jun 21^st, 2005, 9:14pm

Thanks for all the info...I really appreciate it.

I noticed that on the application that the USPTO offers a rapid promotion within the first 6 months.

For instance, GS-5 to GS-7, GS-7 to GS-9 and so on. The question I had is that there is no GS-11 to ____.

Having a PhD, it is my understanding that I would start at GS-11-1.

Is there no rapid promotion in the first 6 months at that level???

Thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jun 22^nd, 2005, 10:41am

It seems not:

"Patent Examiners hired at the GS-5, GS-7, or GS-9 level are eligible for promotion after six months of service."

http://showcase.monstertrak.monster.com/cgi-bin/new/showcase.pl?page=stu_show&emp_id=edlkcc

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by JCP on Jun 22^nd, 2005, 10:58am

GS-5, 7, and 9 can get the rapid promotion at 6 months. It is at the discretion of your supervisor. GS-11 do not get rapid promotions at 6 months because to do so would put you at production requirements beyond that which is attainable in the first year. If you start as a GS-11 then you can start anywhere between GS-11 step 1 and step 10. If you were paid more on the outside then show them your tax return for the previous year and they will start you at a GS-11 step 10 or somewhere in between depnding on how much you were paid at your previous job.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jun 22^nd, 2005, 3:07pm

Does anyone know how much they consider relevant work experience for determining your GS level? I've got over 8 years plus a graduate degree (an MBA - obviously my undergrad was science and not business!).

My undergrad GPA is over 3.5, so i'm hoping to get in at GS-9 with a high Step. Just finished my (fulltime) MBA so i don't have recent paystubs.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac Clark on Jun 22^nd, 2005, 4:48pm

My impression is that unless your education and work experience are extremely relevant your supervisor is going to want to start you at step GS-7.

They use advanced step levels and higher pay grades in order to match your current salary and generally not because your JARS data says you qualify for GS-11 or whatever.

I don't think they'll care one whit about an MBA. If you are not drawing a big salary because of yBour MBA I don't think you can expect to be hired as a GS-9/10.

I think my ex-SPE told me that if you were working within the last year, they could use your old salary to get you bumped up.

There are some advantages to starting at GS-9. GS-9 is equivalent to something us non government workers called an "exempt" employee meaning that you are not legally prohibited from working more than 40 hrs to get your work done. Production can be a bear and now that the PTO monitors the coming and going of employees electronically, it's at least theoretically possible to get fired for working too much if you are GS-7 are lower. I've never heard of that happening but some people did worry about it.

Apparently people are getting caught working too little and are being disciplined/fired for doing so.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Bill on Jun 22^nd, 2005, 8:49pm

I read that full patent examiners are payed at the GS-13 level....is that true?

How long does it take to become a full patent examiner (GS-13) if you start at GS-11?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Bill on Jun 25^th, 2005, 9:10pm

I have been looking at housing near the USPTO and maybe I am not looking in the right place but holy crap it is expensive.

Any recommendations for housing that is less expensive (approx 160,000-200,000)...maybe finding a home around this cost is very improbable but I cant imagine being able to afford a 400,000-600,000 home just starting out.

Where should I be looking...any suggestions??? Or is it just not likely that I will be able to afford a home until later? Thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jun 26^th, 2005, 1:27am

Here is a link that i found where you can search around that area, and some listings have multiple pics and/or virtual tours:

http://www.thebuyerbrokerage.com/

Don't know what you can find, but at least you can take a look. I'd like to find an affordable house too, but things seem pretty pricey.

Good luck!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac Clark on Jun 26^th, 2005, 6:59am

on 06/25/05 at 21:10:24, Bill wrote:

The housing market is pretty scary for a newcomer. I haven't figured out how people moving from old areas are supposed to afford a home. I had to sell my old home in NC, and the equity I got out of the deal is nowhere near getting me into a house here. We're still renting which my kids seem to consider to be about the same as being homeless.

Some people in Northern Virginia are using interest free financing and hoping that their housing appreciates over the first few years so that they can make the deal work when it's time for huge payments to start One problem with that is that there is the plan to move a large amount of defense and other gov personnel out of the N. VA area which could stall out price growth.

Anyhow, I think many people who move here end up in townhouses as their first home. You'll probably be able to afford one of those after a bit, but even those are generally outside of the 160-200K range.

Isaac

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Bill on Jun 26^th, 2005, 8:44am

Well I figured that about living in the Alexandria area.

I don't mind commuting at all...within reason of course.

Can anyone recommend towns within a reasonable commute distance that are more affordable? Thanks

Title: starting at GS-9 vs. GS-11
Post by daven on Jun 26^th, 2005, 12:28pm

If you get a promotion within six months after starting at GS-9, why would you want to start at GS-11? They can match your current salary using either GS level, assuming you don't make more than GS-9 step 10.

I called human resources but couldn't get definite answers. If I qualify for GS-11 (by having 3 yrs experience) could I still elect to start at GS-9?

I did some research and found the average price of a home in northern VA is $350k!! The average price around here is $160k.

I worked overtime last year and made around $30K over base salary. My current employer is also paying around $4k/yr on my undergrad student loans. Would the patent office consider those things when matching pay or is it strictly base salary? I would love to work up there but I need to know how much of a pay cut I'm taking, given the cost of living, etc.

thanks

Title: Re: starting at GS-9 vs. GS-11
Post by guest on Jun 26^th, 2005, 3:34pm

on 06/26/05 at 12:28:56, daven wrote:

I don't think that you will qualify for GS11 unless you have a graduate degree. My experience was more than double yours and they hired me on at GS9/10. They told me that I could be promoted to GS11/7 after 6 months, which would mean that my next possible promotion would be a year after that. If you are initially hired on at GS11 your first possible promotion would be a year after you start. So starting GS11 does have benefits over GS9, putting you six months ahead in the cycle, although if you do good work its all just a matter of time until you reach certain levels regardless. That is the way i look at it.

I think the matching pay is strictly base pay, although Isaac could probably answer that better. I do know that they will only match you up to the max level that they offered to hire you on at (see the salary tables) and not above that level. i.e. my matching offer for GS9/10 had to be above $62986 (the level for GS9/9) but if i was far above that i would still be capped at the GS9/10 salary level.

I'm just a rookie and others here know much more than I, but that is my take.

On the housing side, i'll be coming to the D.C. area with the gain on my house sale and other savings. About $300K. I'm nervous about pumping my $$ into an expensive condo and still having a decent-sized mortgage, say if i bought a $500K condo. I'm going to be renting for a little while, at least until i get a feel for the market.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Bill on Jun 29^th, 2005, 12:37pm

Does anyone know if the USPTO offers any kind of student loan reimbursement options for new employees?

What about moving expenses?

Thanks....everyone has been a lot of help.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jun 29^th, 2005, 5:21pm

I don't think so, but i would suggest you call HR to find out for sure.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by patentpending on Jun 29^th, 2005, 8:54pm

I thought some people might like to read this:

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05720.pdf

Its the GAO's report on the USPTO and working conditions.

Is it really true that USPTO employees never get the annual cost of living increases?

???

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Jonathan on Jun 29^th, 2005, 9:32pm

on 06/29/05 at 20:54:48, patentpending wrote:

Interesting, from the conclusion section:

"To improve its ability to attract and retain the highly educated and qualified
patent examiners it needs, USPTO has taken a number of steps recognized
by experts as characteristic of highly effective organizations. However, the
lack of an effective communication strategy and a collaborative
environment that is inclusive of all layers within the organization could
undermine some of USPTO’s efforts. Specifically, the lack of
communication and collaborative culture has resulted in a general distrust
of management by examiners and has caused a significant divide between
management and examiners on important issues such as the
appropriateness of the current production model and the need for technical
training. We believe that unless USPTO begins the process of developing an
open, transparent, and collaborative work environment, its efforts to hire
and retain examiners may be negatively impacted in the long run."

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Chad on Jun 30^th, 2005, 9:36am

I thought that the pay scale and pay raises took into account locality and inflation.

Anyone got any solid info?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Chad on Jun 30^th, 2005, 9:54am

Sorry for the double post but I just stumbled across the POPA website.

Has anyone read any of their newsletters? The one I read made it sound like the USPTO was going down the tubes...fast.

Any opinions on POPA? And is it really getting that bad for employees of the USPTO?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by JB on Jun 30^th, 2005, 10:52am

No it is not bad. POPA is just so extreme in their thinking. I would take what they write and say with a grain of salt.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Chad on Jun 30^th, 2005, 9:25pm

The news letter I read said that the USPTO was getting rid of several benefits that have made me interested in working there such as:

- limits on flex time

- allowing managers to give mandatory overtime

- increase from previous production levels to get bonuses

- examiners no longer move up the GS scale althought they meet all requirements to do so

All alleged slashes in benefits can be found in this newsletter:

http://www.popa.org/newsletters/febmar05.shtml

Is any of this true or is it exaggerated ?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac Clark on Jun 30^th, 2005, 10:20pm

What you are reading is POPA's interpretation of the PTO's proposed bargaining agreement.

While you would expect such a view to be a bit one sided, it is pretty clear that the PTO's proposal represents major changes few of which are beneficial to the rank and file.

There are some assumptions by POPA that supervisors and managers will abuse the discretion in giving promotions that they are negotiating, but I don't think there is any question that things like flex time, bonus/awards, are scaled back in managements proposed agreement.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Chad on Jun 30^th, 2005, 11:49pm

Is it guaranteed that these proposals will go through or are the proposals a place to start negotiating?

Thanks for the info

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac Clark on Jul 1^st, 2005, 6:23am

I think it's a negotiating stance, but it is a very hardball approach IMO.

The other issue is that PTO management believes that the current agreement has expired despite an arbitrators decision to the contrary. For that reason, it is a bit controversial that there even is a proposal.

And we haven't even mentioned the USPTOs outsourcing plans.

POPA is not right about everything, but there is enough truth in what they say to cause concern. Unfortunately there is enough wolf crying/skies falling stuff in their position that I think there real concerns sometimes get short shrift.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Chad on Jul 1^st, 2005, 1:00pm

Sorry...1 more question.

Would any of these recent developments discourage any of you from seeking employment at the USPTO?

Thanks for all of the advice.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac Clark on Jul 2^nd, 2005, 3:59am

For the most part, no. Most of the things don't make the
PTO a bad place to work. Instead the place is not as attractive
a place to current employees. I expect the changes to be more
of a retention issue that a recruiting issue.

The only thing that really worries me is the strategic plan to
contract out searches and a couple of things in the proposed
agreement that seem to be in preparation for dumping examiners
if they are no longer needed. Given the historic lack of
success for retaining examiners, when the PTO proposes new policies
that would probably negatively affect retention, it might be
logical to think they are anticipating a need to lower retention.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by DCbound on Jul 7^th, 2005, 9:48am

For those of you applying to the USPTO, here are some tips: 1) never leave a message on anyone's answering machine becausse they will never return your calls - always talk to someone in person; 2) get ready to send your transcripts and resume via fax, email, postal copies, and postal copies forwarded from your university directly, about 10 times total.

This is just my morning rant after receiving an email from HR telling me that JARS needed ANOTHER copy of my transcripts/resume now that i was hired (still waiting for them to send my binding letter). I sent them transcripts every which way and even called to verify that my file was complete - and that doesn't count the multiple copies i sent to various supervisors! Another tip: scan everything in an be ready to shoot off email copies - its easier that way.

Oh well, guess its another trip to Kinkos to fax these things off since they wanted it that way this time. Since broadband i haven't had a fax/modem in my computer for years ... all i want is that final binding offer in my hand ...

Title: Living in Alexandria
Post by guest on Jul 9^th, 2005, 9:17am

I was hired to work at the PTO about a month ago and my start date is the day after labor day (spet 6 or 7). Anyone else starting then? If so has anyone begun looking for apartments/condos/townhouses/homes to live in. Living by yourself seems prohibitively expensive, but having a roommate seems to allow you to live more comfortably. Has anyone found a place to live that is convenient to the office (on metro, in alexandria, or arlington)?

If anyone has any advice on where to look (already have looked at craigslist.org, washington post classifieds, rent.com. apartments.com) or knows of places that are looking for a roommate I would appreciate any feedback. Thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by DCbound on Jul 10^th, 2005, 12:34pm

The USPTO has a free "relocation packet" that they overnighted to me last week. Looks like they just printed out info from apartments.com and threw in advertisement pamphlets from a few different apartments. Call HR and they can shoot one out to you if you're interested, but I found that the sites you mentioned are more useful.

September 19th is my start date. My wife and I just put a deposit on a 1-bedroom apartment at the ****n at Carlyle (****ncarlyle.com), which is just a couple of blocks from where i'll be working. Its expensive but rated highly on apartmentratings.com (another interesting site) and the location looks prime. The feedback (on the ratings site) was low on the office staff, but they were really nice to me.

We were looking for something fairly close to my work and near the metro before making my decision. It'll be nice to park the vehicle and walk to work, and we can use the subway to get around otherwise. Maybe just use the car for trips to the store.

Here is what i did in my research: got the address of where I was going to work and where I was thinking of of renting and used Yahoo maps to see distances. Google maps (maps.google.com) has the same features and a cool satellite toggle (in the upper right) - you can zoom in and see individual buildings - that i found interesting.

HTH

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 10^th, 2005, 1:44pm

Thanks for the input DCBound...I checked apartmentratings.com as well. Seems like most of the places got bad reviews though and usually disgruntled tenants seem to be the only ones that want to post on those sites. I also got good reviews about a place called Avalon at Cameron Court which is about a mile from the office. Did you by any chance look at that place?

I got the relocation packet from the PTO, but like you said its really more of a way to help you get started in your search. I wonder if HR has a listing of new e'ees looking for potential roommates.

Also do you know of any places that may give govt e'ee discounts? That would be great! I wont hold my breath though.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by DCbound on Jul 10^th, 2005, 2:54pm

Yes, your right about the apartmentratings.com website. Some of the comments people leave are from some really angry people.

Didn't check out the Avalon until now, i did a quick search, but it looks like a good location, close to metro too. You can give HR a call with your questions, but based on the packet i received i don't think they offer much help with housing. :(

We're paying $1330/month and got into a unit with 10' ceilings which i like. I'm moving from the west coast, so my knowledge is really pretty limited. I'm sure we'll learn volumes about the area in the next year and can re-evaluate housing after this lease is up.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 10^th, 2005, 7:00pm

Unless I can find a roommate I guess I will just suck up the extra cost, learn more about the area and re-evaluate when my lease is up next fall. Good luck moving in and starting at the office. What technology group will you be joining. I will be in some mechanical group but my supervisor still hasnt called me back! Its probably too early for him to worry about me since I wont be there til Sept. Oh well. Thanks for all of the input.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by DCbound on Jul 10^th, 2005, 10:26pm

Good luck to you too! I'll be in the Computer Science division - databases in particular.

My contacts with the USPTO in getting my final paperwork in order has been great. Everybody has been really nice and helpful. I was joking around with my supervisors during the interview process a bit and am looking forward to starting work. I'm making the change from software to law over the next 5 years - i could get a job programming fairly easily in D.C. i think, but am looking for something new.

Going to drive across the country in September, our little U-haul trailer in tow, making a little pre-work vacation of it...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 10^th, 2005, 11:03pm

I'm just coming from Texas and I'm dreading the half cross country trek! I'll be working in shoes/special receptacles...good luck deciding what that means...

Everyone I have talked to has been really nice as well, but I have a feeling my interview went a little differently. I was supposed to get a 20 min pre-screen ph call and then a ph call from a supervisor if there was any interest once my resume was passed around....well the 20 mins turned into over 2hrs! 2 weeks later I got a call and was offered a job! But after I received all of my paperwork and relocation info it has been pretty quiet....

As far as your transition from CS to law...I'm sure you will be fine (but busy)...I actually have my law degree so if you have any questions feel free to ask jdhawk05@hotmail.com

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 14^th, 2005, 8:54pm

I heard the PTO has a workout facility that employees can use if they sign up for a membership. Is this true? If so, how is the facility? I also heard there is a cafeteria there. Apparently the government is doing this in it's new buildings in an effort to attract and retain highly qualified people that would otherwise make their homes/careers in private industry. Anyone care to comment? Thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac Clark on Jul 14^th, 2005, 10:50pm

I found the workout facility to be adequate and quite a bargain,
but I only used the weight lifting area. I would come in before
work or use time during lunch to work out. Now that I've left
the PTO, I haven't found any schedule anywhere near as convenient.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 15^th, 2005, 8:28am

IC

Did you feel that the patent office prepared you well for work outside the office?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by 2S on Jul 15^th, 2005, 11:23am

The "Fitness Center" is very nice (especially compared to the old one in Crystal City). I would say that it is comparable to a Bally's or WSC (Washington Sports Club). There are many classes and the equipment is new (or newer).

The cafeteria is nice and comparable to other new office building cafeterias......

Overall the facilities are top notch.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by DCbound on Jul 15^th, 2005, 2:16pm

Is this "Fitness Center" just for employees or can spouses use it also? My wife was asking me about that today...

TIA

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac Clark on Jul 19^th, 2005, 1:47am

on 07/15/05 at 08:28:20, guest wrote:

IC

Did you feel that the patent office prepared you well for work outside the office?

I took a while to respond to this because I did not have a ready
answer. I think the experience I gained at the patent office was
invaluable. It also helped me to land my current job. However
people get entry level associate jobs with no experience, and I
did have some experience as a drafting applications before working
at the patent office. I've been able to get a quick start at the
firm, and I've already drafted one application which was within the
same art area I examined at the patent office.

I should also point out that I stayed at the PTO for only slightly
more than 1 year. I think 2-3 years of experience is useful, and
I think the return diminishes after that, but 1 year of experience
probably is less than optimum.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by C. M. on Jul 21^st, 2005, 10:04am

I applied to the USPTO about two weeks ago and received an email about an interview.

The problem I have is that I am not graduating until December (PhD) and did not expect to receive anything until later this year since I cannot start at their Dec start date. I live in Baton Rouge, LA and me being a student, the approx. $400 plane ticket is not something that is easy for me to handle.

This may sound crazy but is there anyway that I could maybe defer the interview until the next hiring phase so that it would be closer to my graduation date which would give me a chance to look at all my options more thoroughly without hurting my chances of being hired at the USPTO? Thanks for the advice.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by larkas on Jul 21^st, 2005, 11:06am

C.M.,

I also applied to the USPTO about 2 weeks ago and I have not heard anything so consider yourself lucky.

Think about going anyway. Getting a job takes time and money. I know the trip seems costly but there are ways to reduce it.

A quick search on kayak.com shows that the flights from BTR to BWI should run you closer to $200 roundtrip, depending of course on how soon the interview is and how long you are planning to stay. There is a bus connection from BWI to the Metro system. You can learn more about it:

http://www.bwiairport.com/ground_transportation/washington_dc__wmata_/

BWI is much cheaper than DCA or IAD, the official DC airports.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by C.M. on Jul 21^st, 2005, 11:30am

I think its my nerves.... I dont really do well on flights...i tend to get airsick. :-[

But thanks for the info...thats good to know.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 21^st, 2005, 12:54pm

I actually had my pre-screen (1st interview over the phone) as well as my second and they hired me. So if you can show that you cannot easily make it to DC for the interview I am sure they can accomodate you at least for the 1st one (and the fact they only took 2 weeks to get back to you means they may be more willing to talk over the phone), but like the previous poster said I would do whatever it takes to get that offer in your hands so that in december its a viable option instead of being lost in the mix with thousands of other applications. Good Luck.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by C.M. on Jul 21^st, 2005, 2:52pm

Well, I accepted the interview. Thanks larkas for the flight info....I was not aware of that website.

I was wondering if anyone had any advice about the interview...like what kind of questions they ask, what kind of questions should I ask?

I intend to research what goes into being a patent agent and what I can expect (I know the basics but wanted to learn more of the specifics)

Also, I know it is a casual work environment but I was still going to wear a suit....anyone have any insight on wardrobe selection?

Thanks a lot for all the help. ;)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Noob817 on Jul 21^st, 2005, 8:05pm

Hey C.M,
You can't go wrong with a suit. I had my second interview a couple of weeks ago (offer letter coming soon, according to HR) and I went dressed in a suit. The second interview is just mainly getting to know your supervisor and the job. So don't worry too much, but always be prepared to answer any in-depth technical questions (I didn't get asked any though).
Good Luck!
Anyone have any opinions on living at the ****n at Carlyle?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by DCbound on Jul 25^th, 2005, 11:25am

I only had one interview, did it by phone, and they offered me a job at the end of the interview. They put me on hold for about 20 seconds then came back with the offer. I really wouldn't sweat it that much; it was the easiest interview i've ever had by far.

If its a business casual environment then don't wear a suit on the job (to the interview it wouldn't hurt though). I serioiusly doubt anyone will care if you're wearing a suit or not. Personally i'm looking forward to a more casual environment after years of working at firms that require more.

Last week i received my HR job offer packet from the USPTO (they spelled my name wrong and switched a couple of numbers in the address so its a miracle i got it at all ... ah, our government at work...). I was also approved at the ****n Carlylye for an apartment.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by C.M. on Jul 26^th, 2005, 8:26am

I tried asking about a phone interview and the interview process as a whole and got an email back stating that they could not reschedule the interview.

He also informed me that I would be interviewed in front of a panel of supervisors and that it would last 30 min.

Thanks for the information DCbound and noob...seems like everyone is getting phone interviews except me. :-/ Is this panel the same type of interview you guys had?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by DCbound on Jul 26^th, 2005, 8:44am

on 07/26/05 at 08:26:41, C.M. wrote:

I was interviewed by two supervisors, which could be a panel i suppose. :-/ At the beginning of the interview they introduced themselves and one of them joked that their names would be on a test at the end. I joked back that i would be sure to write that down - I knew it was going to be an easy interview right then!

Good luck - although i don't think you'll need it. If you got the interview you probably have the job.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by examiner with experience on Jul 27^th, 2005, 9:01am

I have been an examiner for 5 years and I interned here for a few semesters and the summer while I was in grad school in the DC metro area. When I was near graduating I was interviewing with other companies for an engineering postion. Oh first let me say, there are a number of factors that can affect your progress here and major factor is your SPE and the other examiners in your group. Some SPEs are very helpful while others are not. It so happens I got lucky and work under a SPE who respects my opinions and early on became pretty confident with my work and decisions. However there are othe SPEs that give their examiners a hard time and until you become a Primary (4-6yrs) you will rely on your SPE or other Primaries to approve and sign off on your work. OK like I said I was an intern while interviewing I would discuss my offers with my SPE while I had not expressed my interest in being employed herre she one day presented me with an offer to pay for the remaining portion of grad school (cause I was just considering dropping out) and matching the highest salary offer I had recieved. I accepted and have here since. It has it's perks...I have recieved numerous bonuses and have recieve promotions yearly...and a pay increase of over 35,000 from my starting salary over 5 years....I don't know if the average salary increase in the private sector is the same for I have some friends who are engineers that are competing for postions and pay and have not recieved the same type of salary. Plus you get a cost of living raise every year approx 3-4% along with your promotions. As long as you meet your goals there's no micromanaging or harrassment at least that's the personal relationship I have with my SPE. Things are beginning to change around here though, and become a little more uncomfortable for Upper Management is putting pressure on the SPEs and examiners to meet unreasonable goals and they are considering changing the patent prosecutin process and which if it is approved will greatly affect the performance of examiners. With issues like that hanging in the midst examiners are starting to feel a little :'( about the postion. But ultimately in my opinion its what you make of it....

on 05/02/05 at 23:06:53, jdhawk05 wrote:

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Aug 16^th, 2005, 12:51pm

I interviewed with the USPTO Aug. 3rd. for 1600 and haven't heard anything yet. Did anybody else interview that day and have you heard anything? For those of you who interviewed with them in the past, how long did it take for you to hear? Also, does anyone know how many people they interviewed versus how many positions they have?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by DCbound on Aug 17^th, 2005, 7:37pm

See my previous post on this page. I talked a little bit about my interview and offer.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Aug 20^th, 2005, 6:00pm

Does anyone know the detail of the USPTO Law School Reimbursement plan? Does one have to work there for a certain number of years before they're eligible to participate? How much would the PTO office contribute towards law school? Any insight is appreciated.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by DCbound on Aug 20^th, 2005, 8:34pm

My understanding is that you have to work for the USPTO for 2 years before you can get into the reimbursement plan (they are trying to change it to 3 i think). Then they will pay for all tuition at any school in the DC area plus some $$ for books ($500 or $800 per semester).

After you are done you still owe them the money, but you can start to work off your debt. Each month you work for them you reduce your debt by 3 credits, and if you quit before working off your debt then you owe them the outstanding balance in cash.

So by my calculations if you wanted to get them to cover the whole nut, assuming 80 credits of part-time law school (from GW part-time, where they say 20 credits/year), you would have to work for them for 8 years, 2.66 months (2 years to qualify + 4 years of law school + 26.66 months to work off the debt (80 credits/3 credits per month)). You probably have to work off the money for books too. ??

If i have anything wrong please correct me - what i read was from a few years ago and my calculations might be wrong.

It seems to me that if you get through law school and owe them the money, you will have worked there for 6 years and will be making some good bank. On top of that, if you went to a private school (i.e. not George Mason, which has resident tuition), the cost per credit is over $1200. So if you are "paying" them back 3 credits a month that would be $3600, which would be a heck of a lot more in after-tax dollars which you'd have to pay the debt off with (close to $5000 a month?). So once you are through law school a firm or company would have to throw you a lot for it to make sense to quit the USPTO. Again, these are more of my musings, fwiw.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Aug 21^st, 2005, 12:17pm

DCBound, Thanks! I appreciate it. This is the detailed info that I've been looking for!

If the increase goes to a 3 yr qualification period, a person would be looking at 9-yrs total time before they're clear and free on their law school debt....yikes! :o

Any word yet on when the qualification time will be increased to three years?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by DCbound on Aug 21^st, 2005, 12:29pm

Well, i think that its not exactly a question of when the qualification time will be increased. Its not that simple, and i can't say that i fully understand all the details...

If you look at the popa site (www.popa.org) they have a link to the "Agency" proposals for the new Collective Bargaining Agreement. If it goes through as is, then the q-time would be 3 years:

http://www.popa.org/pdf/popa-mar2005.pdf

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by shawn on Aug 30^th, 2005, 2:54pm

Well I just verbally accepted a job with the mechanical group. I have a start date of Sept. 19th. I think all of the advice on this forum has been great. I originally applied back in March. I was contacted in August, had one phone interview and just got an offer. No sign on bonus or relocation, so I have to pay for the move out of pocket. Does anyone have any further advice on where to live? I have a dog and I am having trouble scouting places. I guess I’ll have to make a trip up to DC over Labor Day. Thanks again for all of the info on this site.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Marc Miller on Sep 1^st, 2005, 1:05pm

I reviewed a few months of posting in this thread.

For those of you with any special knowledge about the USPTO hiring procedures:

1) Is there a new hiring process/department/team at the USPTO?

2) What does it feel like to have a panel interview?

3) If you had a panel interview in the past, and got job offer, what was your background and how substantial was it (eg. Masters Deg. with 4 years industry exp) etc..?

4) Do you feel it is easy to get a USPTO job?

5) How important is contact networking at the USPTO?

6) Is there any advice you have for an individual getting ready for an interview?

7) What some things to avoid during a USPTO interview?

8) Do you have any general advice not mentioned in the past months of posts to this thread?

Thank you for sharing your time, wisdom, and opinions with me.

Yours Yours Truly,
Marc Miller

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anonymous2 on Sep 3^rd, 2005, 6:22pm

I think you're WAY, WAY, WAY too overzealous to even THINK about applying at the USPTO.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Marc Miller on Sep 4^th, 2005, 12:33pm

on 09/03/05 at 18:22:56, Anonymous2 wrote:

I think you're WAY, WAY, WAY too overzealous to even THINK about applying at the USPTO.

Please, I am very interested in learning as much as I can before arriving to my interview. (i.e. I really want the job and sombody out there has to have the inside scoop.) Any specific advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You Again,
Marc Miller

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Chico on Sep 9^th, 2005, 10:48am

What area are you applying for? The different tech centers vary dramatically.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by NoVA Guest on Oct 12^th, 2005, 11:47pm

Hi all,
This may have been asked before, so please bear with me..

I've been told by some that in order to work for TC1600 (Biotech) one must possess a Ph.D. or have a tremendous amount of work experience under their belt.
At the same time, there have been some who have told me that the turnover rate at the patent office is so high that they are in desperate need of people. I'm not really sure what to believe.
I applied with the patent office in late Feb.2005 while still in school and never heard anything. I completed school this May with a Masters degree in Biochemistry & Mol. Biology and have no relevant significant work experience. Would it be advisable to re-submit an application?
And does anyone know how long it typically takes to process an application?
Thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by raquel_gnobre on Oct 14^th, 2005, 8:22am

Hi!
I'm planning to apply for a patent examiner position and I'm having some trouble writing my personal statement. Any of you guys can give some hints?! Thanks!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by alfredhorg on Oct 14^th, 2005, 10:08pm

I would like to apply to become a patent examiner after I finish law school.

I have looked at the following web page:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ahrpa/ohr/jobs/jobs.htm

and have occasionally found positions open at the USPTO for patent attorneys. The only necessary experience was 1 year of patent examination. The prospect of employment as a patent attorney for the USPTO was the factor that made me want to apply for a patent examiner job for sure.

Does anyone know the chance of an average examiner with a J.D. becoming a patent attorney for the USPTO?

I also have sometimes seen announcements of openings for Administrative Patent Judges. There's one now at:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ahrpa/ohr/jobs/files/05-234.htm

Does anyone know if becoming an Administrative Patent Judge requires some special luck, or ability to write opinions like Cardozo? Or can someone with enough years at the USPTO become an Administrative Patent Judge just from familiarity with the USPTO?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by techietoo on Oct 15^th, 2005, 6:11pm

on 10/14/05 at 22:08:26, alfredhorg wrote:

I work at the PTO and they are hiring like crazy. Are you interested in starting as an examiner or an attorney? I assume you have a science undergrad if you want to be an examiner, but they hire attorneys without a science undergrad to do Trademark stuff. I've met a couple of them there.

My experience is that you just have to put in your time to move up; there really is no limit as an examiner. Don't know much about the JD side.

I'm starting law school next year, part-time of course.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by alfredhorg on Oct 17^th, 2005, 11:55am

on 10/15/05 at 18:11:30, techietoo wrote:

I can't believe it! Somebody replied to me.

I would like to start as an examiner so that I can get the examination experience that would make me eligible to become a USPTO patent attorney.

Good luck with law school, techietoo. I have been wondering these days if I should have started first as an examiner, then gotten the USPTO to pay my law school tuition. If only I had known in 2003 that the USPTO itself employs the patent attorneys it oversees, I would have gone into examination before law school.

If you happen to need one more person to give you advice about law school, I would be happy to give advice just for the possibility of getting more advice about employment at the USPTO.

My email address is: alfredhorg@comcast.net

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by HerculePoirot on Oct 17^th, 2005, 9:13pm

Alfredhorg,
Responding to your question about becoming an Administrative Patent Judge, you will need your law degree, membership in some state bar, and experience equivalent to being a primary examiner to apply. After that, I don't know the criteria they use for selection (other than the KSAs posted for the job on the web).

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by alfredhorg on Oct 18^th, 2005, 4:24pm

on 10/17/05 at 21:13:22, HerculePoirot wrote:

Hmmmm. Becoming an Administrative Patent Judge does not sound like it requires an act of God. I like the idea that I could become one after years of not backbreaking toil, but steadily competent job performance.

Thanks for the insight.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by techietoo on Oct 18^th, 2005, 7:11pm

alfredhorg, i sent you an email.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by herculepoirot on Oct 19^th, 2005, 8:17pm

on 10/12/05 at 23:47:12, NoVA Guest wrote:

NOVAguest,
I think it would be quite advisable to resubmit your application to TC1600. That TC will be hiring about 100 people (probably) over the coming year. While many of the examiners have Ph.D.s, there is a healthy leavening of masters and bachelors degrees mixed in. You might focus on certain areas where there are less Ph.D.s, like the 1650s. I would also recommend that you directly contact several of the supervisors (termed SPEs) in specific art units in which you are interested. Assuming you can write and speak English well, you are likely to make a favorable impression which may motivate them to be interested in you.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by G-man on Oct 25^th, 2005, 10:39am

What salary should a Patent Agent with a few years experience with the USPTO and a BSEE expect at a large firm?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mo@way.com on Oct 28^th, 2005, 9:24pm

$300,000 minimum.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac Clark on Oct 29^th, 2005, 11:00am

Who writes your material? Nick Lowe?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by NOVAguest on Nov 14^th, 2005, 1:53am

herculepoirot,
sorry for my delayed response, but i wanted to thank you for your helpful advice. I will go ahead and resubmit the application asap once again.
thanks! I appreciate it very much.
NOVAguest

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by newComer on Dec 12^th, 2005, 4:53pm

I am applying for a patent examiner position with the PTO and submitted JARS two month ago, went to a PTO jobfair in November, and was interviewed by a director in a walk-in interview session. Since then I haven't heard anything from them.
How difficult yo get in? Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks. 8)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by crazy on Dec 29^th, 2005, 5:30pm

The SPE from an art unit recommended me for hire, and I have faxed in the necessary paperwork to the technology center's hiring coordinator. Assuming everything is okay with my paperwork, how long should it take to get an offer? Also, I have heard of people being offered a choice of GS-7 step 10, or GS-9. I know that at GS-9, you have a higher production, but what are the benefits of starting at 9 if the money is the same?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Dec 29^th, 2005, 6:03pm

The advantage to being a grade 9 is that you are an exempt employee. Grade 7 are non-exempt.
One of the issues you can run into during your probation period is trying to make production. Non exempt employees are legally prohibited from working overtime. While in the old days this was not much of an issue because nobody was really watching, the new security system allows your time in and out of the building to be monitored. If you get into a production squeeze, you still are not allowed to work more than 40 hours until you are GS-9 or higher.

Another issue is that some milestones are triggered by grade level, and as a GS-9 you are one year further up that chain of promotion.

It is true that as a 7 step 10, your pay is about the same as a 9 step 1. But when you get promoted, you go from
7 step 10 to 9 step 5 or something like that. Your promotion from step 9 to step 11 would probably result in more money than the promotion from 7 step 10.

But of course your production goals are related to GS level. Going from GS-7 to GS-9 is a bearable increase, but I know of a few GS-9's who seriously considered not taking the promotion to GS-11.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by crazy on Dec 29^th, 2005, 7:11pm

Thanks for the help Isaac. You said going from GS-7 to GS-9 was bearable, but what about starting out as a 9, is that bearable. I have a friend there who started as a 7 and is doing fine, but I think I would like a jump on the career track. Any advice is appreciated.

Also, you mentioned that it is impossible for GS-7 to work overtime. Does this mean that one cannot work unpaid hours to reach production quotas?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Dec 29^th, 2005, 8:36pm

You can work overtime with the permission of your SPE who will expect production commeasurate with the increased hours.

The rule though is that it is illegal for GS-7 examiners to work unpaid overtime to meet production or for any other reason. You will sign a statement every two weeks acknowledging this policy.

Basically, you are expected to ramp your production up to during the first year. Somewhere around the 9 month point, your SPE will want to see you near 100%.
A GS-7 in a computer related area needs to get 7 counts every two weeks, while a GS-9 needs to acheive 8 counts. The difference is not really all that earth shattering.

It's also possible to get a promotion at the 6 month point if you are producing.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by crazy on Dec 29^th, 2005, 9:29pm

on 12/29/05 at 20:26:45, RogersDA wrote:

Also, if you need overtime to reach production at a lower GS-level then how do you expect to reach production at higher GS-levels? You are not allowed to work overtime unless your production is at or very near 100%, anyway. The idea is that you are getting paid X dollars to make 100%. The USPTO does not expect to pay you X+Y dollars to get 100%. They will pay you X+Y to reach 110%, though.

Does the current system assume that whenever you are in the building you are working? I'm a workaholic, and I do not like leaving things unfinished. If it takes an extra hour to finish something before I go home, then that's what I do. Are you saying that if I spend 4 hrs doing something that is suppose to take 3, it will lower my production even if I don't ask to get paid for the extra hour?

If the government wants the patents reviewed, they should have a system where you are asked to work 40 hours and maintain 100% production to be in good standing. Then award overtime based on any production over 100%.

Also, does anyone know how long it takes HR to send out an offer once you have gotten the nod from the Tech center?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Dec 30^th, 2005, 6:54am

If you are the kind of workaholic that you say you are, then how are you planning to deal with signing a statement every pay period indicating that you are not working unpaid overtime?

You submit a time card every two weeks documenting your hours worked, and the hours that are "other time" and are not to be charged. Other time includes official training, holidays, as well as a few work related activities. That report is used to calculate production and not the time you are clocked into the building.

I don't work at the PTO anymore. I'm not aware of anyone being busted for working too many hours during the time I was there. I am aware of people being busted for various schemes to work less than 40 hours, so I'm sure your time in the building is monitored.

I`

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by crazy on Dec 30^th, 2005, 8:03pm

Thanks for all the info. Hopefully, I will have an official offer soon.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Dec 31^st, 2005, 8:33am

Some times the person who sends out the offers gets swamped, goes on vacation, etc. I would follow up with the SPE after a week or so. I vaguely remember something like that happening with me.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Wiscagent on Dec 31^st, 2005, 12:08pm

A couple of recent posts included this exchange:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
… If it takes an extra hour to finish something
before I go home, then that's what I do. Are you
saying that if I spend 4 hrs doing something that is
suppose to take 3, it will lower my production even
if I don't ask to get paid for the extra hour?

If the government wants the patents reviewed, they
should have a system where you are asked to work
40 hours and maintain 100% production to be in
good standing. Then award overtime based on any
production over 100%.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I don't work at the PTO anymore. I'm not aware
of anyone being busted for working too many
hours during the time I was there. I am aware
of people being busted for various schemes to
work less than 40 hours, so I'm sure your time
in the building is monitored.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My son who works in the post office, i.e. the USPS not the USPTO, recently told me of a situation that may relate to the prohibition on unpaid overtime for examiners.

One of the new carriers in his post office is unable to reliably finish his route on time. He has been filling out his time sheet as though he was finishing on time. Obviously, his motivation is that he wants to keep the job, even if he has to put in some unpaid o.t. On the surface it would appear that no one loses. The carrier is willing to put in the extra hours for no pay, and the postal patrons get their mail (albeit a bit late).

In actuality, however the carrier can be harming his co-workers.

Each year the postmaster conducts a study to determine how long it takes to finish a route. The time required for the route changes with the number of houses or apartments or businesses, traffic conditions, etc. Ideally, each carrier would have the same work load assigned; and that work load would be accomplished in 8 hours by a competent carrier under normal conditions. Based on the time cards, and other information, the postmaster modifies or adds routes as needed.

So the postal carrier that is working unpaid o.t. actually is distorting the data that the postmaster needs to uniformly assign routes. The next carrier on that route either would receive poor performance results or have to work unpaid o.t.

I think the parallel to the examiner’s role at the USPTO is clear. Even if a particular examiner is willing to put in unpaid o.t., he is indirectly harming his co-workers.

- Rich

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Dec 31^st, 2005, 8:02pm

For examiners, there really is no issue with hurting other examiners by doing unpaid overtime.
The work requirements are based on studies done almost 30 years ago with some minor tweaks. They are not periodically re-evaluated.
Besides that, the PTO has no problem with examiners at GS-9 and above working unpaid overtime.

The PTO wants to avoid a situation where a non exempt employee sues the PTO for assigning him a production goal that forces the employee to work overtime without pay.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Wiscagent on Jan 1^st, 2006, 7:59am

Thanks for the clarification Isaac. Clearly you have knowledge of the inner workings of the USTPO, and I do not. Still, I think there is a parallel with the post office situation to extent that neither agency wants to have a situation in which non-exempt employees, or their union, sues the agency for assigning production goals that force unpaid overtime.

Far more importantly ... I wish you and all the regular readers and contributors a happy, healthy, prosperous year in 2006.

And don't forget ... no mail service tomorrow.

Richard Tanzer

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by John Deaux on Jan 3^rd, 2006, 12:58pm

I will be getting a Master's degree in Molecular Science & Nanotechnology in August 2006 and would like to apply for an entry-level examiner position. I have several questions:

(1) When should I plan to apply if I would like to start working sometime in September 2006?

(2) I want to focus on nanotech patent examination - - I know that there is no dedicated TC for nanotech but which TC is the best to contact? Could/should I contact ALL of them that handle nanotech applications?

(3) I received my J.D. in May 2005 from a top 50 law school - - is there anyway that having a J.D. can hurt my chances of becoming an examiner? Thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Jan 3^rd, 2006, 2:14pm

Some supervisor's are understandably suspicious that applicants with law degrees are going to bolt after a year or two. A couple of SPEs told me in explicit terms that they would not have hired someone with a law degree. OTOH there are a number of JD holders in the examining corp and there are some career opportunities at the PTO that require having a JD.

I did get hired, and I did split shortly after the probationary 1 year period was up.

There was another licensed patent attorney in my patent academy class, but he was a dissatisifed patent attorney looking to escape law firm work. I don't think people were nearly as anxious about retaining him.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by alfredhorg on Jan 4^th, 2006, 3:11am

on 01/03/06 at 12:58:35, John Deaux wrote:

I got an offer to work as an examiner immediately after I expect to get a J.D. in May, 2006. I hope to become a patent attorney for the USPTO, then an Administrative Patent Judge although there is a lot about the APJ job about which I do not know.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Jan 4^th, 2006, 6:38am

IMO, it would be a good idea to take a shot at a state bar exam prior to going to work at the PTO. Otherwise, I suspect it will be some time before your schedule allows you to get around to doing so.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by John Deaux on Jan 4^th, 2006, 12:38pm

on 01/04/06 at 03:11:10, alfredhorg wrote:

When did you first apply? Did you simply fill out the JARS application or did you make contact with someone from inside the office first? How long did it take for you to hear from the PTO after first applying? What art group will you be working in? What is your technical background? Did you explain (or did the PTO ask about) your interest in the ALJ career track? Thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by alfredhorg on Jan 5^th, 2006, 4:30am

on 01/04/06 at 12:38:54, John Deaux wrote:

In June, 2005, I called one of the contacts at:
http://usptocareers.gov/contact.asp

I was going to be busy with law school through May, 2006, and the contact told me that applying through JARS was pointless until December, 2005. I applied through JARS anyway in June, 2005, and like the contact said, I received no response.

I later found someone at the USPTO in my area of engineering who submitted my resume to his supervisor. I had a job offer several weeks later. I will let this person identify himself here if he so wishes.

If I were you, I would take the advice of others here and attend one of the career fairs. I get the idea that USPTO recruiters get sick of JARS applications because by the time they get to them, the applicants are already hired at the USPTO, found a job elsewhere, or had put in the application through JARS simply for fun.

The APJ / ALJ job appeals to me because the salary is good and federal government job security makes me very happy. A few months ago, I actually saw an APJ job opening advertised on the USPTO Employment Announcements. The salary was in the $140Ks. I also read in The Economist recently that the outsourcing to India has a long way to go before it peters out.

I just found out that ALJs need at least seven years' experience: "Applicants must be attorneys and have a minimum of seven (7) years administrative law and/or trial experience . . ."
http://www.usajobs.opm.gov/EI28.asp

I could wait seven years. The cool thing to me about being a patent examiner is the overtime pay. I probably will not have to work myself to death like at a law firm, but if I choose to work more, I get paid more. In fact, if I examine patents for as long as law firm lawyers work, I might actually make MORE money working for the USPTO than I would have at some law firm that makes their lawyers dress like James Bond every day. Has anyone else out there made the same observation? Anyone disagree with me?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by crazy on Jan 12^th, 2006, 3:13pm

I just wanted to thank all of the contributors to this forum. I just recieved an official offer today for a Feb 21 start date. Some of the most helpful messages in the forum were those from people who documented their own hiring experience. For the good of future applicants, here is my story:

1. Oct. 2005 Complete JARS application.

2. Nov. 2005 attend job fair...dress nicely, interview with a supervisor (SPE) from a random tech center and give him mutiple copies of resumes and transcripts. He told me he would pass them along to fellow SPE's who were hiring and to call him back in a couple of weeks if I haven't heard anything.

3. Two weeks later. Call contact because I have not heard anything...he makes a few calls, and another SPE calls me for a phone interview. Nothing difficult–just the typical questions (why do you want to work here, what are your strengths and weaknesses, can you work independently, etc.). He tells me he would call me back after speaking to my references

4. Several weeks later. The SPE calls me back and says he is recommending me to his tech center for hire, but that the official offer comes from HR only.

5. One week later. Hiring coordinator for tech center calls and gets some information. A few forms must be completed and faxed in. He sends them to HR along with a recommendation to hire me.

6. January 2006. Call from HR with an official offer and a choice of start dates.

All in all the process took about two months.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by examiner wannabe on Jan 13^th, 2006, 12:36pm

Congratulations!

If I may ask . . . What is your technical background? Which art group will you be joining? What pay grade will you be starting at?

thx

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Former Examiner on Jan 14^th, 2006, 12:41am

Not to discourage anybody trying to become an examiner, but allow me to share my personal experience working for the USPTO:

FYI -- I had a BSEE, no industry experience, fresh outta undergrad.

The hiring process was EASY! I did the JARS thing, and got a call a few weeks later for a phone interview with the guy who was going to be my SPE. This interview consisted of future-SPE telling me about what the job was like (seeing cutting edge technology, working in a production oriented environment, etc.) and asking me if I would be interested in a job like this. It felt like a sales pitch rather than an interview. I then had a second interview with future-SPE about a week later, where I was asked to write an essay in 30 minutes (I had to email him the essay 30 min. after we finished talking). I think the topic was something like "How has your education and/or work experience prepared you for a job as a patent examiner?" Again, very easy. Pretty much just to see if I could write a coherent paragraph in English. Two weeks after that, I got the offer. TC 2600, btw.

At first, I really enjoyed the work. I was learning about cool high-tech stuff (I worked in a pretty cool art!), and the freedom and autonomy of the job was great -- working on a case at my own pace and turning it in when I was done. After a while though, the job just got monotonous and felt repetitive. All those cases which were brand-new and cool to me when I started, gradually began to seem the same. And the independence of the job just became too socially unstimulating. Probably 70% or more of examiners keep their doors closed all the time. It felt like I only saw other people when I went to the bathroom or lunch, needed to ask for help on a case, or to interrupt them with small-talk as they were trying to meet their production goals. So, after about a year, I quit.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying being a patent examiner sucks. It just wasn't right for me. Introverts and those who like their job consisting of a comfortable routine will probably love examining!

One last thing before I end this post -- the Patent Office is starting a new training program for newly-hired examiners (first in TCs 2100 and 2600, but eventually in all TCs), which will be an 8-month program similar to a college classroom type environment. Examiners will be in the classroom for 8 months, getting trained and working on actual cases before going into their TC.

Take care everyone, and good luck with your careers!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Hopeful on Jan 14^th, 2006, 11:36am

[quote author=alfredhorg link=board=patent_agents;num=1107208950;start=225#233 date=01/05/06 at 04:30:35]

If I were you, I would take the advice of others here and attend one of the career fairs.

I enjoyed reading everyone's comments and congrats to those who have recently obtained positions at the USPTO. My question is about these "job fairs." It seems there are general job fairs all over the country and the one in VA on Feb. 3-4 for which you register and interview with someone in your area. How important is it to attend one of these? Should I drive three hours on Monday to attend a general fair or fly to DC for the feb. 4 fair? Many on here seem to have landed positions simply over the phone.

Really I want to begin in August because I'm still in lawschool currently (right after getting my ME degree) and would like to take a state bar. Alfredhorg, was it a uphill battle to explain lawschool? I'm alittle worried they will be put off by this, as others on this board have mentioned. I have a decent amount of engineering intern and legal intern experience but no full-time careers. I'm still seraching for a firm job but since the USPTO process seems to take months I'd like to get the ball rolling. On the other hand, I understand the benefits of government work, like yourself, and would not mind working my way up the ladder there.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by alfredhorg on Jan 16^th, 2006, 11:11pm

on 01/14/06 at 00:41:08, Former Examiner wrote:

One last thing before I end this post -- the Patent Office is starting a new training program for newly-hired examiners (first in TCs 2100 and 2600, but eventually in all TCs), which will be an 8-month program similar to a college classroom type environment. Examiners will be in the classroom for 8 months, getting trained and working on actual cases before going into their TC.

Former Examiner,
Does the new 8-month training program preclude all possibility of overtime during those 8 months?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by alfredhorg on Jan 16^th, 2006, 11:14pm

on 01/14/06 at 11:36:59, Hopeful wrote:

Alfredhorg, was it a uphill battle to explain lawschool? I'm alittle worried they will be put off by this, as others on this board have mentioned. I have a decent amount of engineering intern and legal intern experience but no full-time careers. I'm still seraching for a firm job but since the USPTO process seems to take months I'd like to get the ball rolling. On the other hand, I understand the benefits of government work, like yourself, and would not mind working my way up the ladder there.

My effort to become a patent examiner was not exactly tough enough to call it an "uphill battle." But I knew that since I was going to be available for work immediately after getting a J.D., the SPEs might not hire me unless I could persuade them that I would stay at the USPTO for a long time.

By the time of my phone interview, I had reasoned to myself why the USPTO was my top choice for employment. I thought that all I had to do was explain these reasons to the SPEs, and I turned out to be correct.

If the USPTO is not your top choice for employment, then persuading the SPEs that you would stick around would be an uphill battle, I think.

One SPE gave me a choice of starting dates and explained that if I were to begin on May 30, then the USPTO could not let me go in July to take the bar exam. The SPE let me choose between starting in May and starting in September. I explained that the bar exam is something I would like to get over with, but starting a career was more imporant so I explained that I preferred to start work on May 30 and delay my bar exam until February, 2007. I believe my explanation might have persuaded the SPEs that I will not be one to quit the USPTO quickly.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by crazy on Jan 17^th, 2006, 2:41pm

Hi,

I will be working in the 2800 unit. Does anyone know if I will be in the new training program?

Thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Jessica on Jan 30^th, 2006, 8:42am

I'll be starting at the USPTO on Feb. 20th and was wondering where do you guys live? Are there any good apartments for reasonable prices close to the USPTO office?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Soon2Be on Jan 30^th, 2006, 4:52pm

Hey i'll be working in may after I graduate...any advice on housing? I'd like to utilize the transit system and live in a low rent/safe area. Looking for roommates starting in late May 06.

Anyone else in my position? I'd like to chat with a couple of other soon to be patent examiners. Shoot me an email at emchao@purdue.edu if you'll also be starting in May.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by sstarch1 on Jan 30^th, 2006, 5:28pm

Hey all.
Im an Aerospace undergrad from Notre Dame, im studying for the Patent Bar this semester and plan to take it immediatly after i graduate in May.
1) Is the patent bar exam required for USPTO? or would it even help?

Thanks.
Stepan.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by sstarch1 on Jan 30^th, 2006, 6:42pm

Would i not appear as a better candidate than others if i have passed the patent bar?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by sstarch1 on Jan 31^st, 2006, 5:29pm

I will be graduating in May from the University of Notre Dame with a degree in Aerospace Engineering. A decent GPA. and some quite interesting research.
Qualified?

Title: Not Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Jan 31^st, 2006, 6:48pm

I *thought* I wanted to apply for an examiner position but the more I read about the USPTO online, the less attractive it looks. Working "voluntary overtime" comes up in quite a few google searches. It seems the old patent examining quota system and increased complexity of newer patents are not compatible.

From what I've read, they don't allow enough time to do a good job so you end up working for free, assuming your conscience won't allow you to push shoddy work through.

I could be wrong, but that's the general impression I have after a year or so of reading studies, etc. Is it really that bad up there?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mike smith on Jan 31^st, 2006, 7:57pm

I have heard that they are now doing an extensive (and I'm sure expensive) training program for new examiners that's 8 months!!

Is this correct? And is there anyone here that knows about the quality of this new program? Are you actually learning a lot?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Jan 31^st, 2006, 8:38pm

My experience is that examiners who do shoddy work pay for their folly in short order. If you write a bad first office action, it won't hold up and you'll get to continue issuing non final rejections until you either allow the case or you write a good rejection. In particular, new examiners are usually scrutinized very closely by their primary or supervisor who won't let them allow cases with shoddy work.

Further, the counting system used to measure your productivity only gives credit for the first non final. If you write additional non finals very often, you are not going to make production without working some voluntary overtime.

Without exception, the examiners I worked with were very conscientious, but they are all on a rigid production schedule. In some cases examiners could do a more complete search and could write more detailed office actions given more time, but every bit of time spent on one case comes out of the time for something else. For example, an examiner could take the time to locate art for things described in the spec but not in the claims so that the practitioner would be warned away from using that stuff to amend, but generallly there is no time for that kind of stuff.

As examiners become more efficient so that they can do an acceptable job in less time, many examiners ramp up their production as opposed to spending more time on a given case because higher production puts more money in their pockets, allows them to work with less stress, and looks good on during evaluation time.

Isaac

Title: Orientation at the PTO
Post by wasabi on Feb 2^nd, 2006, 8:47am

I'm new to the forum. With a joining date of Feb. 21 rapidly approaching, I'd like to get an idea of what to expect at the orientation. An orientation packet delivered a bunch of forms that need to be turned in on the first day. Other than that, there's no news on how the training is going to be structured. Should be looking forward to more info in the mail?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Feb 2^nd, 2006, 8:55am

You really don't need any more info. Other than filling out the paper work they sent you, there is absolutely no need to prepare for anything other than putting in a full day at the office. Bring a pen.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by kbooie on Feb 2^nd, 2006, 10:28am

I'll be working as a patent examiner later during the year. What is the environment like? Is it quiet? Do we get our own offices or are we stuffed into cubicles? Also, what's a good area to live in to save money and not get killed?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by alfredhorg on Feb 4^th, 2006, 4:36pm

on 02/02/06 at 10:28:48, kbooie wrote:

Also, what's a good area to live in to save money and not get killed?

You can get crime information for each zip code at:
http://realestate.yahoo.com/re/neighborhood

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Jazz on Feb 7^th, 2006, 1:18pm

I'll be working at the USPTO soon so I'm looking for place to live. All of the places that I find on apartments.com or rent.com are rated low on apartmentratings.com. Most of the comments state that the neighborhood is bad and there is a gang problem. Does anybody here know any good place to live that don't cost alot and that are safe? Is it safter to live outside of Alexandria and commute everyday?-

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Feb 11^th, 2006, 6:46pm

My roomate recently introduced me to this board, and I figured I'd share a few of my thoughts on the PTO.

I was started in June 05 and have mostly positive things to say so far. The job atmosphere is pretty chill. I only see my supervisor a few times a week, so as long as you are getting your work done its all good. One gripe I have is that during my interview, a pay scale was shown to me, with several increasing salaries underlined. I was told at 6 months you'll be making this, 1 year, 2 years, and 3 years this this and this. Sounded like guaranteed raises. Maybe I was naive, but those raises are stricly based on your production. Production can be a pain, if you're a person that worries a lot, you might have to change or you could burn out easily. The new 8 month training program sounds both good and bad. I don't know enough about it yet to offer any good opinions though. The "work at home" program is starting up now for 'higher ups' so this is something that could be a good thing in the future.

As far as living arrangements, check out http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/ , the housing section is really helpful. I decided on a townhouse i found on craigslist for 1600/month, that i split w/ a roomate. A little pricey, but well worth it compared to the size/quality/environment that i've seen at a few apartment complexes in the area. I would suggest if possible, take a day to visit all prospective places here first.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Feb 12^th, 2006, 2:13pm

What do you mean by production can be a pain? Is it very possible to meet the production quotas by working the standard 40 hours a week? I usually stress out over things, and I'm scared when you say that burning out is possible. I'm expecting to work there later this year and hope that by I can hit the quota without stressing myself out. What's your take on that? How do you think the other examiners feel about the work and pay advances?

Thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Feb 12^th, 2006, 5:15pm

I understand that the promotions are performance based, but I'd just like to gauge how much time must be spent in order to reach each of the quotas. Let's say a GS14 has a high production quota, do you think that he/she might have to put in a lot of hours over 40hrs a week in order to reach that quota? Or is 40 hrs a week sufficient to reach the higher production quota given his/her experience at the USPTO?

I'm guess what I'm trying to do is to determine whether I can expect to work no more than 40 hours a week while advancing up the GS levels. If I make it to a GS14, can I still expect to work no more than 40/week? The answer may be based on each individual and his/her efficiency, but on average do most patent examiners have to work more than 40hrs assuming they're gunning for the next promotion?

BTW I really appreciate all of the knowledge on this board, especially when it comes to information about working at the USPTO. There doesn't seem to be many other places where I can find so much information, short of calling up an actual patent examiner and interrogating them.

Thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mark g on Feb 15^th, 2006, 3:01pm

Does anyone have any idea how affordable it is to live in the Adams-Morgan area of the city on a patent examiner's salary (assuming studio/small 1BR)? Also, what would be the average commute time to the PTO via the metro? thx

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Feb 15^th, 2006, 3:25pm

You can explore times and fares on the metro using the trip planner on the wmata web page

http://www.wmata.com/

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by patent.b on Feb 15^th, 2006, 8:15pm

:) Thanks to everyone who posts on this forum!!!

What would you recommend (Isaac, RogersDA, all other current/former Examiners):

I interviewed at an Alexandria Job Fair in 2004 & it seemed to go really well, but I wanted to finish my JD & pass my Bars (state & patent) before pursuing a position. Having done those things, I'm ready to go after an examiner's position. I've done a new JARS application (the earlier one expired while I was in school) & faxed my resume & transcripts.

My most likely TC is 2100, but could possibly qualify for 2600, 1700, or 3600. Do you think I need to budget for a cross-country trip to one of the upcoming job fairs, or can I proceed telephonically just as well?

Any suggestions are appreciated.
B

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Feb 16^th, 2006, 2:17am

My personal experience was that my application sat in JARS and went nowhere until I made a personal contact with a SPE who was hiring. Supervisors will almost certainly wonder about their chances of retaining you because of your status as a licensed attorney and patent practitioner. If you cannot generate an interview and you don't have a current employee pushing for you, I'd highly recommend going to a job fair.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by patent.b on Feb 16^th, 2006, 8:50am

Isaac & RogersDA, Thanks for your advice. I have the contact info for the SPE who interviewed me before, so I will contact him as well as the contact people listed on the site.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Feb 16^th, 2006, 10:44am

Hi,
I just interviewed for a patent examiner position last week. How long does it usually take to hear back from the USPTO? Does anyone know of people that have interviewed and not been offered the job?
TIA!!!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by patentlaw on Feb 16^th, 2006, 4:07pm

hi,
I was interviewed there as well. But haven't heard from them yet.

J.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by startingmay on Feb 16^th, 2006, 7:35pm

I'm starting at the USPTO in May; does anyone know if there's a credit union available for the employees? If so, is there an office in/near the building? Does anyone have any experience or advice for this kind of thing that's USPTO-specific?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Feb 16^th, 2006, 9:05pm

What do you mean by production can be a pain? Is it very possible to meet the production quotas by working the standard 40 hours a week?
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When you start at the PTO, I think there are a few things vital to getting on the right track. In the beginning you aren't expected to be cranking out 100% production. Just show you are improving each bi-week and that you are starting to get the hang of things. You will begin to gain familiarity with the art you are working with and the ideas in the applications will somewhat get repetitive, therefore making your searches a little easier.

Easier said than done: i think you can only spend a certain amount of time searching a case (including asking primary examiners for help) before you have to write the action and move on. This will help you get a formular down, which will also help you when you start to get amendments coming back to you.

As far as the being a pain part: i've struggled with keeping my concentration at times and allow myself to spend too much time reading/learning about the art associated with the application. Learning about the art is good and all, but the case has to get out the door as well.

To those who have accepted positions or are waiting to hear back, don't be scared about production at all. Just be confident in your skills and come into the office open-minded about everything.

As for the credit union: I have been thinking of joining the PTO credit union, for the sole purpose of having a free atm on campus. I might put some money in a savings account there so i can take out cash and ect. without making a trip to my bank. I didn't sign up for it exclusively because it doesn't have the convenience of online banking (i don't believe it does anyway...)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Cspir on Feb 17^th, 2006, 1:03pm

on 02/16/06 at 10:44:08, Guest wrote:

I was interviewed last week as well. Not too long after the interview I was emailed by one of the HR people to fax a SF-85 form and some other online form to complete this "hiring package" as they called it in an email. Did you have to fill this out too?

I still have not heard back after one week myself.

-ST

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by startinginmay on Feb 20^th, 2006, 8:04pm

Is there a web address for the credit union at the USPTO? Alternatively, does anyone have any general ideas about the fees and rates of the credit union?

Thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by startinginmay on Feb 20^th, 2006, 8:15pm

Also, does anyone know for sure if the credit union does or does not have online banking?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by startinginmay on Feb 20^th, 2006, 8:22pm

Finally found it at http://www.ptofcu.org/ , disregard the above!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Carol on Feb 21^st, 2006, 4:27pm

I got an offer from the database area. Does anybody work in this area too? I won't start my job till sept 2006. Any tips???

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Feb 26^th, 2006, 3:59pm

Does anybody live or know anything about Mason Hall apartments? I'm considering living there because the price is right but there's no comments or anything on apartmentratings.com.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by rizz98 on Feb 26^th, 2006, 4:08pm

Forgive me if this has been asked & answered, but I did some digging and couldn't find anything - Anyone have any experience or good information on first-summer opportunities for 1L's at the USPTO? I've passed the patent bar already.

The only thing I could find on the web site is the BPAI internships, and while they look interesting, the deadline's already passed.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by lookingforwork on Feb 26^th, 2006, 4:09pm

Hi everyone, first off I'd like to say that this thread has been quite helpful in learning what life's like at the PTO. So, I'll apologize in advance for the following questions that generally have been asked a billion times before. (but maybe someone can humor me :))

- I think my situation is probably different from most people wishing to work at the PTO. Two SPEs came down to my university about a week and a half ago for our career fair, then then next day, one of them stayed to conduct interviews (the two are unrelated events). Well, I had that interview (of personality/behavioral stuff), and after that, the SPE handed my resume/info to the "correct" TC, and now I have an interview tomorrow (Monday) at the PTO.

- Has anyone been in this sort of situation before? Should I consider this more like a second interview, or am I back at square one?

- Would you recommend a suit jacket? Of course I'll have a shirt and tie, and an overcoat for what looks to be a chilly day. I'm always uncertain of these things when the place isn't professional business attire or just plain casual-casual... I could err on the conservative side, but if even possible, I'd rather not err at all.

- Last and certainly least, is there anything of interest to "do" in Alexandria near the PTO, in case I have a lot of time to kill? I suppose I could just walk around a bit, but having some direction would be nice.

Again, I realize these are 'bleh' topics, but it seems I have asked them anyway...

Thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Feb 26^th, 2006, 4:16pm

I wore a suit to my interview. The SPEs interviewing me did not wear suits, but even had I known that in advance I would still have worn one. My experience with conducting interviews is that even when candidates are told that their interview is scheduled for "casual day" no candidate has the gall to come informally.

Most likely you are interviewing with a supervisor who is considering having you work for him. This is the interview you were trying to get. Forget about any previous interview.

Title: Working for the USPTO
Post by Tim on Mar 2^nd, 2006, 11:06am

About two weeks ago, I submitted my JARs application for a patent examiner position with Unit 1600. Subsequently, I mailed my cover letter, resume and transcripts. I have an undergraduate degree in Biochemistry, and J.D. In addition, I'm a licensed attorney, and registered patent attorney. I also worked as a chemist for a small pharmaceutical company for two years prior to law school. How are my chances of getting an interview, and if likely, how long does it take to get a call? Basically how long should I wait around?

Also, I've been trying to get ahold of the hiring contact for the division, which I'm interested in working. However, I always get his voicemail. Does anyone know how to reach someone that might be able to help me out?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Mar 2^nd, 2006, 12:10pm

My experience was that your application could sit around in JARS forever. There are tons of applications in there and as far as I can tell getting a good JARS score does not draw attention to your application.

The hiring contacts usually administrative staff who may be able to answer questions, but probably are not all that influential with respect to advancing your application. If you can identify which art unit(s) are really hiring, you may have better luck attempting to contact a supervisor SPE in one of the art units.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Mar 2^nd, 2006, 2:26pm

I agree with Isaac. I submitted an application through JARS about a year ago and never heard anything. I tried again this year, and also had a friend who works there as an examiner show my resume to her SPE and I had an interview within 2 days (although in a different art unit). Her SPE showed by resume to someone in a more appropriate unit to my background. If you happen to know someone who works there, that would probably be helpful to you!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Borinkito on Mar 3^rd, 2006, 10:50am

Hello All,

I've been an Examiner at the Office for 4 years now. Probably side tracking here, but it's my experience that people coming to the PTO straight out of college fair much better than people (such as myself) who have worked in private industry before. Both can succeed, I just see the younger people adjusting much better to this type of job.

I also recently bought a house approx. an 8 minute walk to the Huntington Metro (last stop yellow line) and 5 minute drive to work (no traffic). I currently have one room to rent. If you'd like more info on either the job or the room for rent hit me back at borinkito14@gmail.com

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Tim on Mar 3^rd, 2006, 11:25am

Borinkito,

Thanks for the advice. I just sent you an email.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by patent.b on Mar 5^th, 2006, 8:21am

:) Thanks Isaac & RogersDA.

On your advice, I called the SPE who I had met previously, and after a couple follow-up email exchanges, I got an unofficial offer & request to complete security paperwork before I can receive an official offer. Didn't really even do an interview, and I have a tentative start date of May 30!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by concerned future examiner on Mar 5^th, 2006, 2:23pm

For everyone who has been hired or is planning on working as a patent examiner, I came across some disturbing news.

To give a brief background of the current situation at the USPTO, it seems to me that there are two sides at the USPTO: POPA (basically a union), and management. If you're going to be working as a patent examiner, many of the benefits that are being promised at this time were negotiated by POPA. Management, on the other hand seems to be the antagonist that has no interest in keeping up the benefits that the patent examiners enjoy.

Anyways, the whole idea of POPA is to collectively bargain on behalf of patent examiners. This is now being threatened by management, who hopes to terminate POPA.
http://www.popa.org/

I'm not currently a patent examiner, but I might be working as one soon, so this may affect me quite a bit. It seems like there are some USPTO 'lifers' on this board, as well normal patent examiners who are not yet SPE's(management). I'd like to hear some feedback about this new development since it seems like it has the ability to directly affect the patent examiner's quality of life at work.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Mar 5^th, 2006, 4:12pm

It appears to me that management wants to terminate the current agreement with POPA rather that POPA itself.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by patent.b on Mar 8^th, 2006, 6:58pm

Anyone living/lived at ****n at Carlyle? Please post your opinions here or on apartmentratings.com.

TIA

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by johnadams on Mar 10^th, 2006, 9:47pm

on 03/05/06 at 14:23:58, concerned future examiner wrote:

There seems to be another explanation for the benefit obtained by patent examiners--the demand for competent examiners. There is no reason for a union boss to take credit for such a coincidence. Lets not forget what the unions have done to GM, Ford and the entire american manufacturing sector.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Mar 11^th, 2006, 9:54am

I'm an examiner at the PTO, and i just wanted to throw my hat into the ring on the POPA issue.

First off, to new hires, join POPA. I've spent quite a bit of time time talking to various POPA delegates and they are good people dealing with important issues here. Right now there are some rule changes being pushed through which will make examiners jobs harder than they already are. Seems like nobody likes the changes except management, and POPA is really fighting them on this issue.

Anyone who hasn't examined at the office for a period of time doesn't really know what its like and some of the comments i've read here are naive. The current and prior examiners who post here - listen to them, their comments are great.

On working here: if you are thinking of coming into this office then realize that the longer you stay the further you are going to be from the "building things" type of engineer. Don't come here if you want to be a true engineer and do hands-on stuff. Forget it - you're going into the legal side of things and get ready to push paperwork. That's it. The turnover is huge here for a reason.

Good luck!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Mar 11^th, 2006, 12:57pm

When comparing POPA to unions in the private sector, it is important to note that POPAs tools for influencing management are advocacy, arbitration to enforce agreements and statutes for the benefit of examiners, and lobbying of Congress. POPA cannot engage in workstopages, slowdowns and other techniques available to unions in the private sector. There is absolutely no chance of POPA having the kinds of negative effects on the PTO that we've seen unions have on the auto industry.

Yes ultimately is true that POPAs effectiveness is based on the management needing the competence and dedication of the examining corp, but history has shown that management does a fairly poor job of coming up with and maintaining effective retention policies. Management has also made any number of attempts to bail on negotiated agreements, some of which have been stopped only through arbitration. IMO, giving POPA no credit for positive things they've negotiated for examiners would be quite unfair. In some situations, management counts on POPA to provide the input on the needs of the examining corp, or for analysis of how policy changes might effect the corp.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Mar 11^th, 2006, 1:08pm

Is there now an unspoken moratorium at the PTO on hiring attorney patent examiners (i.e. people who want to be patent examiners that happen to have a JD)?

I've seen a report recently that attributes some of the high examiner turnover to "JD examiners" who leave the PTO for much higher paying firm jobs. Just wondering whether it's worth my time (as someone with a JD) to apply for an examiner position or not. Thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by patent.b on Mar 11^th, 2006, 1:24pm

Here is my experience. I have a preliminary offer--just waiting for the background check for it to be made official. I also have a JD. I think as others have posted here, it is important to speak to an SPE in an area where you would qualify to work (in person if possible). Then explain your good reason for wanting to work there and that you plan to stay for a while.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by DC on Mar 11^th, 2006, 2:24pm

does anyone know how the official offers come (by letter/email) and if by letter, through what postal service (USPS, priority mail, fed ex)?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Mar 11^th, 2006, 5:03pm

My experience was that the offer was given over the phone and followed up through the mail. I accepted over the phone and negotiated a start date over the phone.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Mar 12^th, 2006, 11:37am

There is no moratorium on hiring JD's that i've seen. I helped someone with a JD get hired - gave his resume/transcripts to my SPE and he was quickly hired.

I know many SPE's that earned their law degrees after going to school part-time while they were still primaries. The fact is that six or seven years down the road, after getting your law degree and working at the office, you're pushing up against GS-15, making 6 figures, and have the job figured out (i.e. no more than 40 hours a week unless you want to make some extra bank). Not a bad gig, given the move into a competitive private sector marketplace.

Isaac's experience is similar to mine - offer was given over the phone, in my case at the end of the interview.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Mar 13^th, 2006, 7:05am

I'm not aware of any official policy not to hire applicant's with JD degrees. I was a registered patent attorney when I was hired. However some SPEs and ex-SPEs have told me that they were disinclined to hire JD holders because they felt they were retention risks.

One SPE told me that while he would be suspicious of the motives of a new law school graduate, he would feel differently about an attorney who expressed dissatisfaction with law firm experience.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by roto on Mar 13^th, 2006, 7:03pm

Sorry for a change of topic -- Does any one know what kind of benefit USPTO is offering for its employees? My parents has no insurance and not eligible for medicare, I just wonder if USPTO offers medical insurance for employee's parents?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Mar 13^th, 2006, 9:16pm

on 03/13/06 at 19:03:58, roto wrote:

http://www.opm.gov/Employment_and_Benefits/

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Mar 24^th, 2006, 12:41pm

Just a quick question. How long after receiving an unofficial offer should I expect to receive the official offer from HR?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Mar 30^th, 2006, 5:09pm

I am starting at as a new examiner next week. I am looking for a health club to join in the arlington area. Does anyone has any suggestions? Are there any discounts for PTO employees. I prefer one with an indoor pool. Thanks for suggestions.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Sheetal Rangrej on Apr 9^th, 2006, 12:32pm

on 05/23/05 at 08:18:20, Harry Chu wrote:

Did you get an offer? i am going through the same thing and the waiting really sucks for me! I wish I knew now.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Apr 10^th, 2006, 1:28pm

When did you guys interview and with what examining groups?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Sheetal Rangrej on Apr 11^th, 2006, 9:21am

I interviewed on April 5th and had all the security clerance and PIV identification and my transcripts faxed on April 4th. I want to know if this is a good sign or not?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anastasia Beeverhausen on Apr 18^th, 2006, 11:51am

Does anyone here know how much a studio apartment goes for at the ****n?

Title: not cheap:)
Post by daven on Apr 18^th, 2006, 4:11pm

http://www.****ncarlyle.com/prices.asp

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by new pto hire on Apr 18^th, 2006, 4:33pm

I called recently for prices and all they had were a couple of 1-BR's coming available for around $1600 (+utils,+$50 for parking). Pretty dang expensive..

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Apr 21^st, 2006, 6:25pm

I know there is a metro w/in walking distance, but do any employees park at the USPTO? Are there annual parking passes? Does anyone know how much it costs to park in the garages? Thanks!!!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Apr 21^st, 2006, 8:56pm

Is that $90/month parking fee for employees also? On my "do these things before orientation" letter, it says, "The cost of parking for the entire day is $10.00, however, your parking receipt can be validated..." Of course, it doesn't specify if that's only for orientation or if daily validation is possible.

I don't mean to question your credibility, RogersDA (since you always have great input here), but are you completely sure of all that? Intuitively, I'd think/hope that the place I work for lets me park in their own on-site garage. :-/

Title: interesting info
Post by daven on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 4:15pm

The $90 parking fee makes the higher rental prices of the carlyle ****n easier to justify. No parking fee and no commuting expenses. ;)

Here's a question:
I noticed the job announcements that include patent academy training say you are not a regular government employee for a given number of months or years. I'm currently a federal employee and considering applying to the USPTO. Wouldn't that disrupt my TSP matching and other government benefits?

Would I be better off applying to a standard job announcement that doesn't include the new training program? Plenty of new USPTO employees have learned on the job (without the academy) in the past. thanks

Title: Re: interesting info
Post by guest on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 4:51pm

on 04/22/06 at 16:15:19, daven wrote:

The $90 parking fee makes the higher rental prices of the carlyle ****n easier to justify. No parking fee and no commuting expenses. ;)

Nope, there is a parking fee at Carlyle ****n. I pay $25/month because it is in my lease, but you pay more if not. I think its $75/month for a second car. They charge for guests and have towed many cars. Everything costs money here.

Quote:

Here's a question:
I noticed the job announcements that include patent academy training say you are not a regular government employee for a given number of months or years. I'm currently a federal employee and considering applying to the USPTO. Wouldn't that disrupt my TSP matching and other government benefits?

I know you get the gov't benefits - health care, FERS, and TSP. You do have to work here 3 years to vest your TSP, but maybe not if you transfer from another fed position.

Quote:

Would I be better off applying to a standard job announcement that doesn't include the new training program? Plenty of new USPTO employees have learned on the job (without the academy) in the past. thanks

Don't think you can get a job here without going through training unless you are returning to work here (they do hire people back if they don't like life in the real world).

Title: Re: interesting info
Post by guest on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 7:21pm

on 04/22/06 at 16:15:19, daven wrote:

The $90 parking fee makes the higher rental prices of the carlyle ****n easier to justify. No parking fee and no commuting expenses. ;)

Thinking about your post, i probably misinterpreted/misunderstood. Living at the ****n Carlyle you do save having to pay the PTO any parking fees and there definitely are no commuting expenses. That is the reason why i live here.

The PTO will reimburse subway/bus expenses up to a certain amount ($115?). But the time savings can't be reimbursed, and i know people who spend 45+ minutes each way commuting.

There is another place right behind Madison, a block off Einsenhower, called the Carlyle Mill i think. Its maybe a block further than the ****n Carlyle and maybe a bit cheaper but not much. I know people who live there.

Title: Re: interesting info
Post by Isaac on Apr 23^rd, 2006, 4:28am

on 04/22/06 at 16:51:12, guest wrote:

Don't think you can get a job here without going through training unless you are returning to work here (they do hire people back if they don't like life in the real world).

My unerstanding is that not all art units were using the 8 month stint in the pta. Perhaps its possible to avoid an extended training period.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Apr 23^rd, 2006, 8:19am

Yes, its definitely possible to avoid the 8-month training - it is for TC2100 and one other only. I know people who only did the 3-week session this year. But i think the OP was asking about NO training, which probably isn't possible if you haven't worked there before.

I think the long sessions are partly because they aren't sure what they're going to do with all the new people, the buildings are getting crowded as it is. Our workgroup more than doubled last year alone. They seem to be relying on the new hoteling program to free up enough space, but POPA isn't backing it and crying foul. Who knows.

Welcome to life at the PTO all you newbies! ;)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by new pto hire on Apr 23^rd, 2006, 9:35am

Hi All- I am starting in June as a new examiner.. When I interviewed my SPE presented lots of nice aspects of working there: flex time, comp time, bonus awards, casual dress, etc. I just read the March POPA newsletter ( http://www.popa.org/pdf/newsletters/2006_03.pdf ) and it seems there are lots of examiner quality of life issues which the PTO is slowly backing out on. I wanted to ask 1st hand opinions on some questions:

What is the "acceptable" dress code? There is an account in the POPA newsletter of a recent hire who apparently got rebuked for wearing jeans.

Are the issues between examiners and management always so seemingly standoff-ish? Again, the recent newsletter seemed to make it sound like examiners who were wanting to make it a career were losing benefits by the year and that the recent proposed changes by management would only INCREASE examiner departures for the private sector.

For what its worth, based on the few conversations I've had with my future SPE, he seemed like he would be a great supervisor to have. Many of the issues laid out for grievence in the newsletter looked like they were dependant on an examiners relationship with their SPE. Is their truth in this?

One last question- Do examiners ever switch art units? I am just curious if after a few years in one unit there are opportunities to see some different areas?

???

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Apr 23^rd, 2006, 4:05pm

on 04/23/06 at 14:47:24, RogersDA wrote:

The dress at the USTPO is quite casual. Jeans are very common. Management tends to be more business casual to business formal. I am not familiar with the issue you are refering.

There was recently a report in the March 2006 POPA newsletter suggesting that a "business casual" dress code was being enforced at the Patent Training Academy and that new employees were being admonished for wearing jeans or casual shirt types.

My personal take on POPA is that they do tend to take a very pessimistic view of management proposals. For example, when anything is proposed to be left up to the discretion of manager or supervisor, POPA routinely envisions the policy being implemented by the worst supervisor imaginable. When reading POPAs newsletter the continuing pessimistic tone does erode POPA's credibility.

However, I also believe that at least some of POPA's pessimism can be justified by management actions. Management does have at least some history of trying to avoid/wiggle out of agreements and interpretting agreements in strange ways not to the benefit of the examining corp.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Apr 23^rd, 2006, 9:00pm

What is the "hoteling program"? Does it mean new hires are working at desks sitting out in the hallways? J/K:)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Apr 24^th, 2006, 6:45am

I recently read a report at the PTO website that said 1000 new examiners were to be hired in FY 07. Does anyone know if this number is accurate? I recently called a SPE to inquire about positions and she told me that I would probably be considered for next (fiscal?) year being that I'll be getting my master's in August and a new class of exmainers is expected to start in September.

Is there any great need for examiners with a nano background (e.g. ms in molecular science and nanotechnology)? If so, what examining groups would be best to apply to (i.e. which group handles the most nano-related apps)?

thx

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by new pto hire on Apr 24^th, 2006, 8:09am

Thanks Isaac and RogerDA for the responces and the heads up about POPA's potential for pessimism. It makes me feel alot better!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mike philips on Apr 27^th, 2006, 11:47am

I recently received an offer from HR. They gave me a week to decide but I would start in June. If I say yes, but another offer comes before me that I would like to take, would I get in trouble for declining after verbally committing to them?

I wish they gave me more time to think about taking the job :(

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Apr 27^th, 2006, 4:42pm

I hate to ramble on but here it goes.:)

I really like the idea of applying to work at the patent office. I enjoy engineering but reviewing patents sounds like much more of a challenge than my current job. It's to the point where I enjoy writing work instructions as much or more than crunching numbers for drawings.

The problem is I would go from owning a home to renting an apartment in northern VA/DC, AND paying anywhere from $300-500 MORE per month for rent than my current mortgage. I found info that says I would need to earn 37% more in northern VA to maintain my current standard of living.

I called the patent office HR and was told they would match my current salary. What I don't know is if they'll really promote me to the next GS level after six months, assuming I'm making the quota. The info I read said something like, "examiners may receive a one time promotion after six months."

On top of that I'll make about $30k in overtime this year at my current job. With that in mind, I believe you can understand why I'm still hesitant to apply to the USPTO. Money isn't everything but the numbers aren't pretty.

Can someone really go up there and bust their butt to get promoted in a timely fashion? It seems with all the hiring going on they could lose track of who you are, let alone remember to promote you within six months.

thanks in advance

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mike philips on Apr 28^th, 2006, 12:56am

no overtime pay if you gs-7 :-[

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Apr 28^th, 2006, 1:07am

[quote author=mike philips link=board=patent_agents;num=1107208950;start=330#333 date=04/28/06 at 00:56:36]no overtime pay if you gs-7 :-[/quote]

If true this is a relatively new policy. GS-7 and below cannot work voluntary, unpaid overtime, meaning that they cannot work more than 40 hours per week to try to make their product goals, but their supervisor can authorize them to work paid overtime for extra production. At least they could when I was there.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Apr 28^th, 2006, 6:37am

on 04/27/06 at 16:42:12, daven wrote:

Can someone really go up there and bust their butt to get promoted in a timely fashion? It seems with all the hiring going on they could lose track of who you are, let alone remember to promote you within six months.

You'll get your promotion if you are at production at the end of 6 months. However, you probably won't be at full production at that time - few are. Its probably hard to do in the 8-month training, if you are going through that.

The production quotas are supposed to be weighted different for the probationary period, but the way things go varies by supervisor. Its hard to explain the reality, you just have to experience it. Basically a more realistic number is 8-9 months, imo.

My thoughts are that doing 8 months of training, getting the promotion, and then hitting the TC with the higher production requirements and having to learn to do things how your actual supervisor or primary wants them might be very difficult. Better be GS-9 at that so you can do voluntary overtime. No joke.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Apr 28^th, 2006, 6:40am

on 04/28/06 at 06:37:56, guest wrote:

i meant to say unpaid overtime at the end of that post.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Apr 28^th, 2006, 8:07am

Also when planning on your raise after promotion, do not assume that you will be going from something like a
GS-7 step 10 to a GS-9 step 10. If you are at a step 10, you'll almost certainly end up at relatively low step in the next GS level after your promotion.

Of course with each jump in GS level comes a corresponding increase in required production.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Apr 28^th, 2006, 9:02am

on 04/28/06 at 08:07:07, Isaac wrote:

Yep, and the production quotes don't go by step but by grade - step has nothing to do with it.

Isaac is also correct on promotions - they move you up one grade minus 3 steps (there is specific formula but that is the basic rule). This rule stops if you are step 1, then you go up a full gs level (i.e. from gs11/1 to a gs12/1. All that only holds through gs13 when you can go on the program (after 6 months i think - partial sig). It changes again after 13.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mike philips on Apr 28^th, 2006, 9:58am

on 04/27/06 at 11:47:18, mike philips wrote:

any help please? ???

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Apr 28^th, 2006, 1:09pm

on 04/28/06 at 09:58:12, mike philips wrote:

any help please? ???

ask them for more time.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Apr 28^th, 2006, 5:44pm

Is it a disadvantage for someone coming straight out of grad school with a PhD with no patent experience to start out at GS-11? Does that mean that they are starting out with higher production expectations than, say, someone coming out with a masters at GS-9. Is it feasible for a PhD with only lab experience to reach the goals?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by ptoer on May 1^st, 2006, 11:16am

on 04/28/06 at 17:44:02, guest wrote:

Production quotas go by your GS level, so yes your production expectations will be higher. As far as it being feasible to reach those goals, only time will tell how fast you can work and how well you pick up the job. It is easier to come in at a lower level but the pay is lower.

fwiw: i have posted here a lot under 'guest' but decided it was time to register.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Dillon on May 1^st, 2006, 11:33am

For folks coming to PTO in June and still in search of housing:

I am currently occupying a 1 BDRM basement efficiency near the PTO (1.5 miles) in Old Town (a great area!). Address is 523 N. Columbus St., Alexandria, VA. Rent is $695. 7 blocks from Braddock Rd. Metro Station. Own kitchen, bathroom. Large walk-in closet. Free laundry, free parking. Nice backyard with gas grill. I've been biking to work every day for the past year from here, love the location and am sad to give it up. Apartment available June 1, (or possibly 5/29). Shoot me an email [djcody at gmail dot com] if you are interested in more details.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by alfredhorg on May 1^st, 2006, 4:47pm

While we are on the subject of apartments, I will need a three-bedroom with two full bathrooms. My start date at the USPTO will be May 30. The highest rent I can pay will be $1575, more if utilities or washer/dryer are included. I would prefer a location near a train/bus line that goes straight to the USPTO. I am willing to ride the VRE as far as Bristow. Would anyone like me to take over their lease? I will get to Virginia on May 24.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by ptoer on May 2^nd, 2006, 8:17am

I wish you luck, but that is a tall order. My suggestion is to scan craigslist regularly, check out rental websites (rent.com, etc), and find out realtors in the area who manage properties and see what they have to say.

You might find that if you can get those kind of prices you'll have to commute for 60+ minutes and/or live in a very bad area.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on May 6^th, 2006, 5:03pm

I will be working at the patent office starting in June 2006. I am looking for a place to live, and have found a place near the intersection of I-495 and I-66. I was curious how long of a drive it will be to get to work every morning, and home in the evenings. It is only 10 miles, but does that equal 1 hour if I leave the house at 7-7:30?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by ptoer on May 7^th, 2006, 11:21am

It could, especially if you live out 66 towards Dulles. I know people that live out that way and come in every morning at 5am to avoid the traffic. Think flex.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on May 8^th, 2006, 5:38am

It might be awhile before you can flex if you have an 8 month training program.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on May 9^th, 2006, 5:36pm

I drove up to DC this past Sunday to take a look around the patent office. The new patent office buildings are VERY nice. They have a decent sized gym on the first floor of one of the buildings.

The Carlyle ****n is literally within a few blocks of the patent office. The commute to/from work would be stress free. ;) The lobby looks good but their leasing office isn't open on Sundays to show apartments. They have a scan card for their gated parking garage, which means your vehicle should be fairly safe.

By the way, a guy at work says his good friend from college works in DC. The friend's wife supposedly works at the patent office and made GS-14 within 5 years. Is that possible? He has no reason to lie but you know how second hand stories go..

thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by some guy on May 9^th, 2006, 6:02pm

Yes, it's possible.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by ptoer on May 9^th, 2006, 8:03pm

Yes, possible, but it depends on what grade you start at and if you get through the program without a hitch and if you get timely promotions. At GS-14 you are a primary - it takes more time to go from GS-13 to GS-14 than the preceeding levels which are one a year at best.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by nerdy on May 11^th, 2006, 4:15pm

How long does it take to hear from Human Resources
after your
paperwork (background check info, transcripts, jars etc) has been sent,
before you hear about being hired or not? I suppose
they start calling everyone on your contact sheet first.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Sheetal Rangrej on May 13^th, 2006, 11:18am

It took 3 weeks for me.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by nerdy on May 14^th, 2006, 1:29pm

Thanks for your reply, Sheetal. Does anyone know
how hard it is to actually get compensatory time
if you are constantly under pressure to meet
production? Or are you better off taking the
guaranteed overtime pay? Can you switch later
after finding out you really don't have the time
to take the compensatory time? I think I am
interested in the compensatory time, but from what
I've heard around my neighborhood, they keep
you pretty busy there, so perhaps I might never get to take it if that's how it is. I heard about one person
who had to quit because I guess he wasn't fast
enough. The person I spoke to said he wasn't given the
time to "do the job properly". Also, what is the
most important indicator for success at the
PTO? Is it reading speed? How many pages of technical material
per hour do the successful ptoers read?
Also is it looked down upon if you decide to use
the gym for half an hour during your lunch break,
and then 15 minutes to eat?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on May 14^th, 2006, 1:53pm

on 05/14/06 at 13:29:39, nerdy wrote:

The person I spoke to said he wasn't given the time to "do the job properly".

The nature of any job involving searching through literature is that you can do a better job given more time. Examiner's are not expected to do a perfect search, so your friend's comment begs the question of whether he was unable to do the expected job in the amount of time given, or whether he set too a high a standard and was unable to let go and move on to the next job at the expected time.

Quote:

Also is it looked down upon if you decide to use
the gym for half an hour during your lunch break,
and then 15 minutes to eat?

You are not watched quite so closely as this. If you are not taking long lunches you won't have a problem.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by nerdy on May 15^th, 2006, 3:32pm

Thanks for your reply, Isaac. I am still curious as
to how I would compare with someone who is
working in the patent office who doesn't need overtime
in order to meet production: I strongly suspect reading
speed is a strong indicator for success (correct me
if I am wrong, besides technical knowledge), and
I have timed myself reading up to 50 pages per
hour of technical material while typing notes. Other
times I am alot slower than this. Do you think this
is faster or slower than the successful patent examiners,
and how fast would you say you would have to read in order
to process patents in a timely (and non-overtime) manner?
I have other job offers and am trying to make my
decision based on something more than money--success
and happiness with the job.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on May 15^th, 2006, 3:56pm

on 05/15/06 at 15:32:20, nerdy wrote:

I don't believe that high reading speed is a predictor of success. Searching involves coming up with a good search strategy that includes the relevant material in as small a haystack as practical. Trying to brute force speed read through a lot of stuff to find a reference in a huge pile is not going to be a successful strategy very often. There is some amount of grinding through of course, but the more of that you have to do, the more inefficient you will be.

Just my take on things. I was a fairly average examiner.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by nerdy on May 15^th, 2006, 4:07pm

Thanks again, Isaac. Does anyone know the
schedule for the patent training academy? Is it
strictly 9-5 M-F? My tentative start date is in
September. This is a really great thread and
I'm grateful to all the ptoers who have answered
me and others
:D

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by OhTheDrama on May 15^th, 2006, 6:54pm

i went to my interview at USPTO last week. it was fairly short and my interviewer didn't ask me any technical questions and went into the job description 5 minutes in. He dicussed starting salary with me and asked for my desired start date. He even gave me a tour of the facility and took me to HR to make sure all my paperworks were there. Here is my question, after reading many posts, it seems like most people have two interviews. I didn't ask my interviewer what the next steps were since I thought for sure that I was offered the job. Now I am worried. Should I be worried ???. I don't want to quit my current job until I receive the offical notification, but I really want to quit now :-/

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by nerdy on May 16^th, 2006, 7:12am

I had my first interview too, and was asked very technical
questions. It is not official yet that I will be hired,
even though I was given a tour, start date, and
discussed salary. I am trying to hold off on declining
other job offers until I hear from the PTO.
It is my understanding that I might even have two
more interviews after the first, with the area in
which I am to specialize, then maybe with HR.
I think they are still comparing us all to one another.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on May 16^th, 2006, 8:10am

on 05/16/06 at 07:12:54, nerdy wrote:

I
I think they are still comparing us all to one another.

I was under the impression they are hiring as many people as they can get ahold of, provided they have decent technical knowledges and backgrounds...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by nerdy on May 16^th, 2006, 1:07pm

I don't want to repeat what they said to me,
but they made it clear that hiring me was tentative,
even though my interview went well.
They talked to me like I was going to be working there. I wouldn't
quit your job if I were you just yet. I know I am not
counting my chickens before they're hatched!
I wouldn't be worried though.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by nerdy on May 16^th, 2006, 2:11pm

In addition to what I said, I think it is a competitive
hiring process because I know a professor with a PhD
who didn't get hired. I don't think it was a salary
dispute, either, because they like to tell you up
front how much money you'll make. Even at the
job fair, there are stacks of salary tables to hand
out to everyone and they bring up salary first, unlike
my other job offers most of whom like to keep quiet
till the end of the hiring process.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by OhTheDrama on May 16^th, 2006, 2:28pm

thanks for the response. are you the same nerdy who has a tentative start date in september? if so, does that mean you've already received a call from hr after only the first interview? i should've asked the interviewer for a definitely answer but i just felt it wasn't prudent at that time. maybe i'll call hr in a few days. this forum has been very helpful.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by nerdy on May 16^th, 2006, 3:21pm

Yes, my tentative start date is in September.
I have not heard from HR yet.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on May 16^th, 2006, 5:25pm

Nerdy,
Do you mind my asking what general TC you will be working in? i.e. 1600, 1700, 2100, etc....

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by nerdy on May 16^th, 2006, 5:33pm

I don't want to be identified :-X

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on May 16^th, 2006, 5:40pm

ok, i understand. i am just curious about potential upcoming start dates for the various TC's. i.e. do all groups train at the same time?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on May 18^th, 2006, 2:34pm

I start at the PTO June 12th. Can any current or former employees recommend the best health care plan(s) to choose? Thank you!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on May 18^th, 2006, 4:31pm

I'm a federal employee but don't work for the USPTO. I assume they have the same plans we have. I switched from blue cross to MDPIA recently because it's cheaper and includes dental coverage. Most of the plans don't include dental.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on May 18^th, 2006, 4:50pm

You really have to assess your own health issues such as dental, vision care, ob/gyn, etc. I seem to recall that we had access to a website that let you do a side by side comparision of at least 4 plans with summaries of the important issues of coverage and price. The answer might even vary with where you end up living and what kind of facilities/doctors exist for your plan.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by OhTheDrama on May 22^nd, 2006, 6:09pm

I got an offer from USPTO!!! I am excited about moving to a different place and starting a new job. I just hope it won't be as stressful as mentioned in several posts. After all, there's the 8 months training period, which should be plenty of time to adust (I think).

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Sheetal Rangrej on May 24^th, 2006, 2:47pm

Have you already found a place to live? Where are you moving from?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anonymouth on May 24^th, 2006, 2:54pm

I too was hired, and just secured my apartment at the ****n at Carlyle. It's literally a 2 minute walk door to door from my place to the USPTO, and I can't wait to start.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by schedule on May 25^th, 2006, 1:43pm

Did they tell you what your schedule would be
(5/4/9) with one day off or do they discuss that
after training is over in 8 months? Did they
let you decide your schedule? I would like to
telecommute. I guess you don't have to!
I am curious to know how hectic the job really is.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mithong on May 25^th, 2006, 9:42pm

i know this is kind of aloaded question, but i was curious

if im starting off at gs5or 7... (fresh ee undergrad) and progress through the ranks at a moderate pace... how long will i have to work to become a gs 14.? is it something thats possible in 5 years? 7 years? 10 years?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on May 25^th, 2006, 10:11pm

You guys should see if you like the job first before you start talking about things that are years away. After you get off probation (2 years?) i guarantee you will see this job in a completely different light...

Good luck.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by OhTheDrama on May 26^th, 2006, 8:26am

hmm, in a completely different light, eh? that sounds bad :-[ i guess i'll just have to look for another job in 2 years if its gonna be that miserable

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by schedule on May 26^th, 2006, 9:40am

Someone (in authority) told me that it was possible to make
6 figures within 5 years, but I'm sure that is very
difficult. Someone else who used to work there told
me that the turnover rate is 50%. Yet I know of people who
have worked there for at least 20 years and are at
the top.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by schedule on May 26^th, 2006, 9:45am

I'll bet it's not as bad as some of the other jobs
I've held. :P

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Real Examiner on May 26^th, 2006, 12:56pm

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I've worked here for 15 years and have been a primary for more than half of that. The flexibility is nice but don't expect to be treated like a professional or to feel "valued". No one goes around patting you on the back. And things look like they're going to H*LL in a handbasket with all the changes coming down for the new fiscal year. As far as teleworking, it's only for GS-14 primaries. So you'll have to do your time before you get a go at that little dandy. Good luck to all of you.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on May 26^th, 2006, 1:07pm

on 05/26/06 at 08:26:15, OhTheDrama wrote:

hmm, in a completely different light, eh? that sounds bad :-[ i guess i'll just have to look for another job in 2 years if its gonna be that miserable

Different light does not mean miserable. The point is just that you will have a different perspective on the meaning and relevance of the questions you are now asking.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mithong on May 26^th, 2006, 1:46pm

on 05/26/06 at 12:56:28, Real Examiner wrote:

what is a primary? gs 13 and up?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Real Examiner on May 26^th, 2006, 2:27pm

No. A "Primary" is a "Primary Examiner". A GS-14. Once you make it to a GS-13 you go on the signatory program, which takes just under 1 1/2 years. It's a period of intense review of your work by the technology center supervisors. If after that period of time, it's determined that you know what you're doing, you become a "Primary" and get your 14. More pay but a lot more work to go along with the pay.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by OhTheDrama on May 26^th, 2006, 2:42pm

on 05/26/06 at 13:07:47, Isaac wrote:

Different light does not mean miserable. The point is just that you will have a different perspective on the meaning and relevance of the questions you are now asking.

I suppose so though the "H*ll in a handbasket" from another post certainly doesn't sound encouraging. Oh well, I've already tendered resignation at my current job and I can only look to make the best of it at this coming job. If things don't work out, I heard Alexandria does have many job opportunities or I can always just marry rich :D

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mithong on May 26^th, 2006, 2:48pm

on 05/26/06 at 14:27:21, Real Examiner wrote:

ah i see. you always hear of government jobs being stress-free and relaxed, but I guess with all the quotas associated with this job, it is anything but stress-free

thanks for your help. hopefully i do well at the job fair next week and will see you there :)

one more question though, what GS level did you start out at... did you go into the PTO straight out of college?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on May 26^th, 2006, 3:13pm

on 05/26/06 at 14:42:22, OhTheDrama wrote:

Some things are relative. The job may be changing to be less examiner friendly than current examiners have lived with, but may not be all that bad a place for a new examiner who never experienced the good old days.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on May 26^th, 2006, 4:05pm

Yes, Isaac was exactly right in his earlier post. When i said in a different light i did not necessarily mean miserable. Some people enjoy the job, but it is a minority i can assure you of that.

But there are some things that many view as positive. For example you know exactly what you need to do to keep your job. Nothing is hidden in that regard, although there are things that can make it difficult. Another positive is that the promotions are not competitive up to GS14. But there are quite a few people who don't want the promotions because your production requirements and responsibilities go way up. Its a lot of pressure, and if you fall behind for a couple of quarters you are gone.

OTOH, if you are coming here because it is a cushy government job then look elsewhere. I work with a lot of people who came here from other government agencies and i think many regret their decision. I came from the private sector and this job is much harder and far less creative or motivating than anything i've ever done, period. High biweekly production quotas monitored very very closely. In fact everything is monitored and the work is boring and there is a lot of it. There are so many people who leave this job its really shocking. I don't understand management at all with thier policies. But what can you do?

Advice: if you don't like the job i suggest that you quickly move on to something else before your degree starts to lose its marketability, as most tech degrees do very quickly. Don't get stuck in a career you don't want and let other opportunities slip by. Think about what you want to do, and is it this? Just my opinion, but maybe keep it in mind.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Real Examiner on May 26^th, 2006, 4:20pm

The previous poster has hit the nail on the head in every respect. It is not your typical government job. You are worked HARD -- it is a production environment and if you can't do the production, you get cut.

The previous poster also made the point that if you don't like the job, move on to something else quickly. When I started here many years ago, I was told to beware the "Golden Handcuffs." This is the cute term for what happens to you once you've stayed here more than 4 years or so. Leaving gets more and more difficult. After a certain amount of time, you're making good money and you'd probably take a pay cut to go somewhere else. Moreover, your engineering/technical degree becomes more and more irrelevant because, let's face it -- you're not doing the job of an engineer at the PTO. After a while, you realize, you CAN"T leave. The Golden Handcuffs. It's true. I missed the boat and now I'm stuck here until I retire.

I don't mean to sound like gloom and doom -- I just want all of you who are thinking of coming to the PTO to know that it's no bed of roses. And I was serious when I said in my previous post that it is going to get worse. Management has proposed many changes to examination practice that will make it even more difficult to achieve your production in the hours given. Think hard before you accept your offer.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on May 26^th, 2006, 4:25pm

Let me amend/explain the post i just made above: when i said harder i wasn't referring do difficulty but to the volume of work and trying to stay motivated. The job itself isn't really that difficult if you figure out how to search effectively and know your technology.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on May 26^th, 2006, 5:47pm

::) Just out of curiosity , what sort of mechanisms is PTO using for a job assignment? An application can come with less than 20 claims to god knows how many. I assume it counts the same amount of work when it is done, isnt it? Any chance that this is done unfairly to junior guys?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by OhTheDrama on May 26^th, 2006, 6:00pm

Thanks for all the valuable inputs, which I wish I could've inquired before I accepted the offer and quitted my current job. My friend's been working there for a couple of years and that's how I got wind of them hiring. She seems to like her job and she did mention to me the quota system, which I didn't think much of at that time. I don't know if different art units are going to make much difference, but I am indeed troubled by others' experience with working at PTO. Nevertheless, it'll be a new start for me and I certainly look forward to it. Hopefully it'll bring other opprtunities and I'll definitely keep my eye open not to miss the boat.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by eliza on May 26^th, 2006, 7:55pm

Based on the discussions here, it seems like after you've been at the PTO for awhile the only job choices you have are to either stay at the PTO or work at a law firm. Basically, you'll be stuck in a patent law career as opposed to an engineering career.

Also, it seems like there are examiners with law degrees at the PTO who DON'T want to work at a law firm and feel that the PTO is their only alternative.

What do you think? Is the PTO still better than working at a law firm?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on May 26^th, 2006, 8:51pm

on 05/26/06 at 17:47:46, guest wrote:

Luck of the draw. The new guys coming out of training will probably get a couple rounds of easy cases on their dockets but then they join the normal rotation very quickly. But the number of claims is not always a good indicator of the difficulty of the case. Not going into it any further though. Don't worry about the job until you get there. Take more important information from this board instead of little detailed questions like everyone is asking.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on May 26^th, 2006, 9:01pm

on 05/26/06 at 19:55:45, eliza wrote:

Not many options. The rush into this field will likely make the jobs much harder to find for patent lawyers a few years down the road. The number of people at the PTO who want to go to law school is huge, probably because the only other option is to go to law school (besides being an agent or searcher and i know people who have gone that route). There will always be jobs but the competition will just get much more fierce, imo.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by shedule1 on May 27^th, 2006, 4:10pm

I've already signed my agreement, but still want
to keep my options open for the future, so I just
told the other job that I couldn't accept it at this
time. Wouldn't you say that programming for
the military would be a harder job than patent
examiner? Also I have had to work double shifts
until 2am at other jobs and work 6 days a week. Have you had to do this
as a patent examiner?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on May 29^th, 2006, 12:16pm

You are only required to work until your production is at or above 95% (its a little different for probationary people, but its still production based). If you're working overtime and not billing them for it beyond that then you're just giving them production for free.

If you want to make your promotion you have to be halfway between your current production level and the next production level, which is 15% higher.

Basically you can count on working some unpaid overtime, although its not allowed for those under gs-9. Officially....

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on May 31^st, 2006, 4:42pm

Does the USPTO reimburse tuition for ANY law school in the DC area? There's quite a difference between tuition at Georgetown and say... George Mason. Just wondering...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on May 31^st, 2006, 6:12pm

Yes, but you pay 100% of the income tax on the "benefit" of the tuition reimbursement. More reimbursement, more tax.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Gator_PE on May 31^st, 2006, 6:59pm

I just received an offer from the USPTO a month ago, and am sceduled to start in September. Is anyone here familiar with TC 2100? Semiconductors and Optics? Thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mithong on May 31^st, 2006, 9:10pm

on 05/31/06 at 18:59:24, Gator_PE wrote:

I just received an offer from the USPTO a month ago, and am sceduled to start in September. Is anyone here familiar with TC 2100? Semiconductors and Optics? Thanks

any chance that you could give me a clue as to what the interview is like? what kind of questions did they ask you? thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Jun 1^st, 2006, 12:57am

on 05/31/06 at 18:59:24, Gator_PE wrote:

I just received an offer from the USPTO a month ago, and am sceduled to start in September. Is anyone here familiar with TC 2100? Semiconductors and Optics? Thanks

TC 2100 is computer related technology.

http://www.uspto.gov/web/info/2100.htm

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Gator_PE on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 9:35am

on 05/31/06 at 21:10:56, mithong wrote:

any chance that you could give me a clue as to what the interview is like? what kind of questions did they ask you? thanks.

Here's a complete rundown of my experience:

I submitted my resume through the career fair, and later that night there was an on-campus info session, where they talked about what patent examiners do, they described it similar to how the members of the thread have, except they didn't emphasize on the quotas.

The next day they held on-campus interviews, I got the interview with one of the hiring managers. It was somewhat relaxed, and the questions he asked were pretty much behavioral. I am an EE, so he asked me about the classes I took, and which areas of EE interested me the most. He looked at my classes and since they revolved around computers and electronics, he asked why I chose that path. Then the other questions revovled around what attracted me to the Patent Examiner position. Interview lasted for about 45 minutes.

The next two interviews were over the phone, the first one focused again on the classes I took, and they seemed to be interested with my semiconductor background, and asked me what I learned from those classes. The next phone interview was similar, and I could tell by then that I was already hired, w/o them telling me, since it's one of those conversations where they were asking me more about my classes and were trying to fit me in a position that I knew a lot about and was interested in.

Then I received a couple of calls from the hiring center asking me to fill out the necessary forms online (security, background check, etc). Then I eventually received a verbal offer over the phone, letting me know which technology center I was placed in. Then an offer letter came in the mail within a week.

All of this happened within the span of aout 2-2.5 months.

Hope this helps, and good luck!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Gator_PE on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 9:35am

on 05/31/06 at 21:10:56, mithong wrote:

any chance that you could give me a clue as to what the interview is like? what kind of questions did they ask you? thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Gator_PE on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 9:35am

on 05/31/06 at 21:10:56, mithong wrote:

any chance that you could give me a clue as to what the interview is like? what kind of questions did they ask you? thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Gator_PE on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 9:37am

sorry about the multiple posts, my connection was screwing up while I submitted the reply, and I guess it posted a reply everytime I reloaded

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by SICKOFITALL on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 11:01am

Just went there and got offer but refused it. Money is horrible. In some groups you need a PhD to get in. Also your work is only what examiners do NOT what an attorney would be does so minimal law and lots of reviewing science papers against patent claims.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by shedule on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 11:15am

I got an offer too. I think the money is great!
I only have a B.S. but have good grades. I am very
excited about this job and can hardly wait to start!
I am not really deterred by what has been posted
on this forum, because I have heard worse stories
in the private sector. I just hope the benefits of
this job don't dwindle down to what is being offered
in the private sector--some people have to choose
between vacation time and sick leave, you only
get 10 days of them combined.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by DeepBlue on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 12:18pm

Can someone recently hired in TC1600 please share with us their experience and, if possible the number of positions will be filling next year for Biotech/Organic Chem/Phamaceutics? Thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mithong on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 12:38pm

on 06/02/06 at 11:01:52, SICKOFITALL wrote:

you were at the job fair and they offered you a job on the spot after your interview?

my guy told me they would get back to me within a month. i guess thats not good for me:(

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mithong on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 12:39pm

on 06/02/06 at 11:15:20, shedule wrote:

did you get ur offer through the job fair? did they give it to you on the spot?

he said he would get back to me within a month :(

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 1:51pm

If you want to get a flavor for what you do every day, most patent applications are published, and most of the rejections are based on other patents or published applications.

You can go here, and find what classes your Art Unit covers (note: some Art Units don't work on all the subclasses of a particular class):

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/opc/caau.htm

Then you can go here:

http://www.uspto.gov/go/classification/selectnumwithtitle.htm

Find your class and click "go", there you see all the subclasses you are working on.

Choose a class and subclass, and go here:

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html

and search for applications with the same "Current US Classification" with your search term in the format of class/subclass.

There is a chance that you could see some of the exact cases you will be examining.

Click on one of them, and look at the claims.

Your job will be to find every detail in all of the claims in another patent or published application. Then you will write an essay ("office action") explaining exactly how what is in the patent you found matches the claims and identifying the details by figure number, reference number or column and line number.

A lot of examiners simply copy the claims directly and insert the numbers in parenthesis next to the detail.

For example:

Let's say your case has this for the claims:

What is claimed is:

1. A vehicle comprising a steering wheel and a seat.

You found a patent by an inventor named Smith that has 3 figures - Fig.1 shows a car; Fig 2. shows the steering wheel of the car; Fig.3 shows a seat of the car.

You would write:

Smith discloses a vehicle (Fig. 1) comprising a steering wheel (Fig. 2) and a seat (Fig. 3).

That is it, except your "office action" will be littered with a bunch of form paragraphs from the MPEP, such as these:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/documents/0700_706_02_i.htm

Techincally, if your case is published, you could probably do most of an "office action" with the MPEP and the USPTO search website:

http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html

You can kind of get a feel for it with that, but it's a lot easier to do it at the PTO because they give you better search tools, and they have a Microsoft Word macro that makes it easier to add all the form paragraphs. Plus there are other papers you need to fill out.

But that is pretty much what you do all day every day. The only thing that changes is that you need to do progressively more and more in a 2 week period.

Your only break is if somehow you can finagle a way to get "other time", which is time where you don't have to work on a case.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mithong on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 1:54pm

on 06/02/06 at 13:51:19, Guest wrote:

so how much of the whole patent examining process is technical knowledge, and how much is just knowing how the patent process works?

i've heard from some that having great tech knowledge on ur art unit is IMPORTANT, but others have told me that it's not as crucial

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 2:41pm

on 06/02/06 at 13:54:34, mithong wrote:

Most of the job is searching through patents to find features from the claims. If you can understand the patents and the claims well enough to do that, you are set.

The legal apsect is almost secondary.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by schedule on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 3:10pm

did you get ur offer through the job fair? did they give it to you on the spot?

he said he would get back to me within a month

I was told how much money I would make given my
gpa at the job fair, but no job offer on the spot. I sent in my resume and transcript
after a certain period of time, and got an interview.
Then I heard back from
HR quickly after I did my jars and security forms.
I think if you have a high gpa in the right major, and do well in your interview you
should get hired!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mithong on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 3:18pm

on 06/02/06 at 15:10:38, schedule wrote:

so you had an interview at the job fair, sent in ur resume and then had another interview?

what was that "certain period of time"
?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by schedule on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 3:32pm

so you had an interview at the job fair, sent in ur resume and then had another interview?

what was that "certain period of time"
?

I don't want to identify myself by giving out specifics.
If I were you though, I would study before going
into ANY interview for your major. That is more important
right now for you. If you don't hear from them after a while though, you
might want to call them up to ask if they still have
your resume on file. :-X If your school has mock
interview practice, I would go to those, so you
get better at interviewing. I learned alot from mock
interviews with real employers.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Jun 4^th, 2006, 1:43pm

I am interested in working at the USPTO. Do they require pre-employment or random substance testing?

Thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by someone_against_drugs on Jun 4^th, 2006, 3:19pm

Yes.
I don't think they would want to hire people who
use illegal drugs.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guestx on Jun 4^th, 2006, 3:47pm

on 06/04/06 at 13:43:10, Guest wrote:

I am interested in working at the USPTO. Do they require pre-employment or random substance testing?

Thanks

Absolutely not.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by someone_against_drugs on Jun 4^th, 2006, 3:55pm

You still have to answer questions about previous
drug use, and if you lie and they find out, you will be fired.

Also you are not protected under the ADA. It is
not a disability to decide to start using illegal drugs.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guestx on Jun 4^th, 2006, 5:41pm

on 06/04/06 at 15:55:44, someone_against_drugs wrote:

You're answering questions which weren't asked, although i must admit your entertaining if nothing else! ;D

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Jun 4^th, 2006, 5:58pm

Give the prospective employee a chance guys.. If they ever legalize the use of marijuana, someone may actually submit a patent for a roller.. or something related. He may end up being the best qualified employee to examine those patents.:P

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by someone_against_drugs on Jun 5^th, 2006, 7:12am

More likely what will happen is that management
is reading this entire thread and will start random drug
testing! Corporations have already started denying
employment to cigarette smokers. Sorry guys, I guess
you should have never been so stupid to use drugs in
the first place. Quit now and redeem yourself.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jun 7^th, 2006, 3:32pm

Just wondering if anyone who uses the credit union would recommend it?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guestx on Jun 8^th, 2006, 5:33am

the only people who use credit unions are stupid drug users.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mithong on Jun 8^th, 2006, 7:51am

It's been a week since I interviewed at teh job fair and I haven't heard back yet. What should I do now?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by anonymouth on Jun 8^th, 2006, 10:40pm

on 06/08/06 at 05:33:06, guestx wrote:

the only people who use credit unions are stupid drug users.

???

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Jun 11^th, 2006, 1:23pm

on 06/08/06 at 07:51:50, mithong wrote:

It's been a week since I interviewed at teh job fair and I haven't heard back yet. What should I do now?

I heard back from them a month and a half later, and after that interview and all the paperwork, they offered me a job another month later! Don't worry..have hope! ;D

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Jack on Jun 12^th, 2006, 6:55pm

Does anybody know if there are limitations on the law schools that the USPTO will pay for? Will they pay for Georgetown, for example?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by answering_jack on Jun 14^th, 2006, 5:37pm

Yes, they will pay for Georgetown.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Jun 19^th, 2006, 4:35pm

Was just curious if anyone has completed or is currently attending the Patent Training Academy and what there thoughts are on the program. Reason I ask is that I am starting at the PTO next month.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jun 20^th, 2006, 3:34pm

It's pretty great, in my opinion.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jun 25^th, 2006, 11:50am

Hello, maybe this is the wrong place to ask this, but... looking through the new-hires pack the PTO has sent me, they have included tax forms for VA, MD, DC, and the non-residency form for VA only. In this area, you only file taxes with the state in which you live, correct? For the record, I will be in VA.

Also, can anyone comment on the traffic along King St./Rt.7? At $90/mo for parking, a 30-40 minute commute via the Metro is looking more and more appealing.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by 1-yr-examiner on Jun 25^th, 2006, 6:19pm

Traffic along King St/Rt 7 is very, very bad. Lots of vehicles and lots of lights. The metro is a good option, I think. I walk to work, personally, and my rent is 650/month.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jun 25^th, 2006, 8:16pm

on 06/25/06 at 18:19:16, 1-yr-examiner wrote:

Traffic along King St/Rt 7 is very, very bad. Lots of vehicles and lots of lights. The metro is a good option, I think. I walk to work, personally, and my rent is 650/month.

Hi, I saw your name and am just wondering how your overall experience of working at PTO is so far. Thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Nguyen on Jun 25^th, 2006, 8:48pm

How come rent is cheap at 650$. I have trouble finding place with that price range.

Nguyen

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by noob on Jun 26^th, 2006, 9:27am

has anyone who went to the job fair in early june had their 2nd interview with an SPE yet?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by 1-yr-examiner on Jun 28^th, 2006, 1:22pm

http://washingtondc.craigslist.org

There's lots of places on there that are under $1000 or even under $600. You have to be willing to have 1 or 2 roommates, of course.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by DeepBlue on Jun 28^th, 2006, 2:29pm

Just out of curiousity, would it be prohibitive for someone from filing own inventions if him (her) works for USPTO? Out of his own idea and spare time, of course. :-*

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Wiscagent on Jun 28^th, 2006, 4:16pm

Patent examiners may not apply for patents. I don't know about other USPTO employees.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 6^th, 2006, 1:19pm

I interviewed at the career fair on june 3rd, but I have not heard from them as of yet.

what should my next step be? do my chances of getting this job look bleek?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 10^th, 2006, 4:16pm

How hard is it to make it past the new 2 year probationary
period? How many people have to quit before they
get fired? How many of you have to work on nights and
weekends, and until what time into the night? Basically
how many hours per week to get the job done?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by wannabe pto on Jul 11^th, 2006, 7:13pm

Hi. This is a great thread - many thanks to those who have patiently answered questions over the months and years.

It seems that the key to getting hired is to catch the interest of a SPE. I am a computer science generalist, and I would like to know if there are particular topics to bring up - perhaps areas with huge backlogs - that would be more likely to result in an eventual hire.

I would also like to know if hiring is affected by the end of the FY.

TIA from another pto wannabe

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 17^th, 2006, 7:27am

Hi, I have a couple of general questions for people who attend the Patent Academy training program. What's the schedule like? Also, what's the dress code? Does everyone dress up in suits or business casual? Thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 18^th, 2006, 5:16pm

The schedule is M-F 8-5. Business casual.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Kiki on Jul 19^th, 2006, 8:15am

Anyone has master degree and willing to take the grade 7 option 10, which is the same salary as the people who has a BS degree. Do you think the people who get master degree will promote faster than those don't have master degree? What is the advantage?They told to take this option if do not want so much stress in the beginning.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guestx on Jul 19^th, 2006, 6:45pm

You start at the GS level you start at and progress from there. No advantage for those with masters for progressing. It can help where you start although work experience can also help. I have a masters and much work experience and started at GS9/10 with competing offer.

Promotions are non-competitive to GS14. To make 15 you have to be an expert if you don't want to be a SPE. There is some discussion about what entails being or becoming an expert.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO - recruitment incentive
Post by jspark on Jul 19^th, 2006, 9:40pm

I'm due to start soon, and they are throwing a recruitment incentive at me. It's a four year contract, with a bonus for every year completed... satisfactorily of course. There have been previous posts about "golden handcuffs" etc. The documentation leads me to believe that if you break the agreement, you only have to return the money for that year. Can anyone comment?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guestx on Jul 19^th, 2006, 11:12pm

Yep.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 20^th, 2006, 5:40am

Recruitment incentives?? Hmm how come I never heard anything about it? I suppose they don't offer it to anyone then. Oh well.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guesty on Jul 20^th, 2006, 3:01pm

Do you know what percentage of people don't make
their 2 year probation? Do they have microwaves for
heating up lunches? I read that Popa wouldn't allow
microwaves. I am starting at 7/10 soon.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Jul 20^th, 2006, 3:06pm

on 07/20/06 at 15:01:51, guesty wrote:

Do you know what percentage of people don't make
their 2 year probation? Do they have microwaves for
heating up lunches? I read that Popa wouldn't allow
microwaves. I am starting at 7/10 soon.

The two year probation period is quite new.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by GuestV on Jul 20^th, 2006, 4:08pm

Hello, I'm currently in the June training academy class, and although we are not eligible for the recruitment bonus, they still spend a lot of time telling us about it since they say they're trying to squeeze out a retention bonus for us, too. (and in my honest opinion, the PTA is a complete waste of time/resources; it's been 4 weeks now, and they've barely taught us anything..., so get ready for some extreme relaxing).

As far as I know, the bonuses are only for EE/CE's going into the PTA, and you'd only have to pay back the year that you break the contract. (correct me if I'm wrong in the following) As for microwaves, the May and June classes are not in any of the 5 main PTO buildings, but we have microwaves for use in our pantry areas. I believe the January class is somewhere in Madison, and the July class will be in a lower level of Knox, so maybe if someone knows the buildings better, they can comment...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guiest on Jul 20^th, 2006, 7:34pm

do you have any idea when the next pta is starting (not the july one)

on 07/20/06 at 16:08:46, GuestV wrote:

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by GuestV on Jul 20^th, 2006, 8:13pm

No docket yet. Well, technically I have a docket, but it's empty, and we don't start getting real applications until around the end of the third month. Even then, we won't be working on them "for production," but for learning and gradually building up experience for when we actually go back to the TC. Of course, we still have to get out office actions... I forget the numbers, but it doesn't count too heavily in our evaluations.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 20^th, 2006, 8:31pm

on 07/20/06 at 19:34:45, guiest wrote:

do you have any idea when the next pta is starting (not the july one)

I think two classes in September.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 20^th, 2006, 8:50pm

on 07/20/06 at 16:08:46, GuestV wrote:

Hand in my honest opinion, the PTA is a complete waste of time/resources; it's been 4 weeks now, and they've barely taught us anything..., so get ready for some extreme relaxing).

The start of the PTA might not be 'strenous', but it's worth noting that this is allowing for many examiners to bond faster with more people (unlike the old system) and may very well lead to more examiners staying long-term. So even as the examiners don't get live cases for around three months, I wouldn't specifically say it's a waste of resources for the USPTO, they'll probably still come out on top as compared to previous efforts.

(Also, keep in mind that the USPTO is treating as everyone adults. If an examiner forgoes independent time (time for MPEP work, fiddling with search tool personalized settings, questions, etc) where he is not explicitly monitored, it's his choice. Just like college.)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by GuestV on Jul 20^th, 2006, 10:28pm

Excuse me... this is largely a rant, and from what I can tell, most people don't have any problems with the PTA. Also, we do hand in weekly evaluations to management (which we are told all are read), so don't think my breath is only going to waste here.

I do understand that the lecture/classroom experience is meant to create and develop a bond between everyone, but it's just not my preferred method for learning the job. My main problem with the PTA is that, unlike college, 90% of my day is already set for me. Meaning... if there are scheduled lectures from 8:00-11:00, I MUST attend those lectures. I can't skip out on them and do my own independent work. And because all the lectures basically involve a trainer/spe reading a powerpoint presentation which we already have copies of, I consider it not only an ineffective teaching method, but also hours that could have been better spent. In all seriousness, there has not yet been a topic/lecture that I couldn't just spend 10 minutes reading to myself and been ready for the next topic (as for examining, we have really only talked about 101 so far). Instead, we all have to sit through someone reading to us as we read along. Additionally, the schedule is not so organized... for the third time since training began, we had an "Introduction to the Patent System" this week. Maybe not in the same words, but the content is the same. Most presenters have no idea what the other presenters have talked about, and there is much overlap between lectures. My opinion on teaching is that if the student does not understand a topic the first time around, it's up to him/her to ask the questions instead of having the teachers drilling all of us over and over again.

Another issue I have is the selection of lectures. We rarely have more than one "substantive" lecture each day. Maybe one class on Classification, then a lecture on Time Management. Three of the least productive things we've had this week were Time Management, Financial Planning, and a 2-hour SPE panel. Time management and financial planning? Why is a mandatory hour spent on each of these? The PTO wants to help us develop rich fulfilling careers? I think in these matters, one has to be willing to seek help for themselves. Why not set up some materials or classes for us to attend at some other time? Why conduct these classes while you're paying us a full salary for training? Then we had a 2-hour long SPE panel Q&A session. Other than seeing some of the people we may be working with, I did not see the point of this. People asked questions about things such as: "What do you look for in good examiners? Which statutes should we pay more attention to? etc etc." My question is: what does it matter what parts of the mpep we should pay less attention to? What does it matter what our BD is, what our promotion requirements are? Why don't we just work to the best of our best abilities and learn as much as we can? How can we ask questions about a job we haven't even set foot in yet? 2 hours -- gone. Paid, but gone.

Again, I am just finishing month 1. I know that when we finally do get cases to work on, we'll be able to work at a more individual pace, but as for now, it's just too slow for my liking. If you ask me, they're treating us like children.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 20^th, 2006, 11:13pm

how were people generally dressed?

on 07/20/06 at 22:28:26, GuestV wrote:

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 21^st, 2006, 7:51am

GuestV: when you say it is boring and a waste of time, you are absolutely right. When guest said that it isn't a waste of resources he is either: 1) clueless or 2) management towing the line. I've been around long enough to know. Just get your sleep while you can - the real work begins in the TC. Good luck.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guesty on Jul 24^th, 2006, 11:37am

Does anyone know what hours the gym is open?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Never been to on Jul 25^th, 2006, 8:49am

The USPTO seems to be recruiting electrical and computer science enginners. I'm getting a B.S. in chemistry (not Chem Engr) in May, 2007. What are the chances of getting in with the USPTO?

Thanks....

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 25^th, 2006, 9:26am

on 07/25/06 at 08:49:07, Never been to wrote:

from what i've heard, you pretty much need a PHD in science to be considered, and even then, the chances aren't that great because there are not that many spots available.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 26^th, 2006, 12:49pm

i just recieved my conditional offer!, i just have to fil out the of and sf forms and im set

YAY :)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 26^th, 2006, 1:38pm

how many people are in PTA session?

what's the makeup of the groups? (ages)

how are people dressed?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by bond007 on Jul 26^th, 2006, 4:31pm

Hi,

i just started working at the USPTO. There are about 70-80 people in my batch..usually there are upto 120. The good news is they are planning to hire about 1000 examiners a year for next few years. The first day is orientation, then they split you up in a group of 12-14 according to your expertise. The first 2 weeks are very basic, intro stuff. then they get into more technical detail. Overall its a good job. The dress code is business casual, like khakis and a collared shirt. Lemme know if you have any other questions.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest2 on Jul 26^th, 2006, 7:01pm

If someone has the grades/LSAT scores to get into any law school in the DC area while working for the USPTO, which would be the best in terms of quality, cost, and/or job placement opportunities?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 26^th, 2006, 9:27pm

on 07/26/06 at 19:01:02, guest2 wrote:

If someone has the grades/LSAT scores to get into any law school in the DC area while working for the USPTO, which would be the best in terms of quality, cost, and/or job placement opportunities?

lsac.org

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Jul 27^th, 2006, 4:33am

on 07/26/06 at 21:27:17, guest wrote:

lsac.org

Is that how you spell Georgetown?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 27^th, 2006, 9:18am

oops - i skimmed his question and thought he was asking about the lsat/grades to get into law schools in dc and comparing the costs, etc. my bad, it was late.

yes, georgetown for sure, but gwu isn't a bad second choice.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Jul 27^th, 2006, 9:37am

on 07/27/06 at 09:18:24, guest wrote:

Actually, cost was mentioned.

If you throw cost into the mix, George Mason is not a bad choice either. But if the PTO is footing the bill, I think G-town and GWU, in that order.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 27^th, 2006, 11:44am

very true, but luckily the PTO is footing my bill (minus the taxes). I'm taking the LSAT on September 30th and will probably follow that order: 1) gtown, 2) gwu, 3) gmu. This is all assuming that i do well enough on the LSAT to be competitive. I'm an older candidate and my application will be very unique so i hope that scores some points with the admissions people, but hopefully i do well on the LSAT to bolster my app.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Jul 27^th, 2006, 12:05pm

I always root for the "older candidates". Good luck with your endeavor.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Deepblue on Jul 27^th, 2006, 3:13pm

on 07/26/06 at 16:31:18, bond007 wrote:

Any hind how many new hires will be in the biotech/Pharma area ? Thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by oduramad on Jul 27^th, 2006, 3:29pm

Amateur here....does USPTO hire year round or seasonal? Also, anyone currently working in the Immunololgy section have any clue about whether they are hiring soon, often, rarely?

Thanks
oduramad

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 27^th, 2006, 4:07pm

on 07/27/06 at 12:05:33, Isaac wrote:

I always root for the "older candidates". Good luck with your endeavor.

thanks Isaac.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 28^th, 2006, 10:39am

I'm going to have to drive to the vienna station, and take the metro from there to rossyln, and then switch lines to king street

anyone know how much i will have to spend per month in parking/rail fees ?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 28^th, 2006, 11:32am

on 07/28/06 at 10:39:04, guest wrote:

Do a search on Google for "washington dc metro fares" and you will find links to your desired info.

I'm not allowed to post the link as a guest, otherwise i would post the exact link to the resource, but it is simple enough to find.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by new on Jul 28^th, 2006, 11:40am

does any one know if the 8 month training for patent examiners is a paid or nonpaid traning?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Jul 28^th, 2006, 11:51am

on 07/28/06 at 10:39:04, guest wrote:

http://www.wmata.com/tripplanner_d/tripplanner.cfm

Looks like the fare from vienna to king street is $2.35 during business hours and $1.95 during off peak hours. Parking at Vienna is $3.75 per day.

Examiners get a transit subsidy of up to $100 per month as long as they are not parking in the area around the PTO.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Jul 28^th, 2006, 12:12pm

on 07/28/06 at 11:40:21, new wrote:

does any one know if the 8 month training for patent examiners is a paid or nonpaid traning?

Living 8 months in the DC area without pay. Shudder

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 28^th, 2006, 3:29pm

on 07/28/06 at 11:51:39, Isaac wrote:

Looks like the fare from vienna to king street is $2.35 during business hours and $1.95 during off peak hours. Parking at Vienna is $3.75 per day.

Examiners get a transit subsidy of up to $100 per month as long as they are not parking in the area around the PTO.

ouch, so in addition to the subsidy, i have to pay around 90 dollars out of pocket per month for transportation? booo

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Jul 28^th, 2006, 4:01pm

on 07/28/06 at 15:29:27, guest wrote:

ouch, so in addition to the subsidy, i have to pay around 90 dollars out of pocket per month for transportation? booo

Actually, I may have misused the trip planner and the expenses may be higher than my estimate.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 28^th, 2006, 6:38pm

on 07/28/06 at 16:01:25, Isaac wrote:

Actually, I may have misused the trip planner and the expenses may be higher than my estimate.

Actually i think its $3.90 peak and $2.35 off-peak, rather than $2.35/$1.95.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 28^th, 2006, 6:54pm

does anyone have any details on the recruitment bonus?

how much is it?
do you get the money after your year is up, or when you take the offer?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by nerdy on Jul 29^th, 2006, 1:26pm

It looks like I'm in! How do the women dress? What is the average age of new hires? I have alot of suits that are tweed with matching jackets/dresses. I hope that will be okay. I don't really like khakis at all.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by new on Jul 29^th, 2006, 11:48pm

I am gonaa start working @ uspto very soon. I have been placed in GS 7 step 10. Can anyone give me a rough idea of how much my monthly income would be after taxes?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 30^th, 2006, 12:40am

on 07/29/06 at 23:48:19, new wrote:

I am gonaa start working @ uspto very soon. I have been placed in GS 7 step 10. Can anyone give me a rough idea of how much my monthly income would be after taxes?

around 1528 dollars per 2 weeks... hey, did you get any information about the recruitment bonus?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 30^th, 2006, 3:46pm

on 07/29/06 at 13:26:43, nerdy wrote:

Wear what you will be most comfortable in while sitting in front of a computer screen in a tiny office. That is what you will be doing 99% of the time. Nobody cares what you are wearing so be comfortable.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by EEsoon2bJD on Jul 31^st, 2006, 1:35pm

Hello, and thank you to all the examiners/practitioners/applicants who have posted on this thread and kept it alive. I have found it to be extremely informative.

I am currently a registered patent agent, in my second year of law school, who is interested in a future career at the USPTO as an examiner. I have a BSEE.

My question is:

Should I stick around and get a MSEE prior to applying for an examiner's position at the USPTO? Any thoughts?

Thank you for your time.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Jul 31^st, 2006, 1:38pm

on 07/31/06 at 13:35:13, EEsoon2bJD wrote:

Should I stick around and get a MSEE prior to applying for an examiner's position at the USPTO? Any thoughts?

Thank you for your time.

You should decide on getting (or not getting) an MS for reasons other than employment at the PTO. I think it's a valuable credential even if the PTO does not value it very highly.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 31^st, 2006, 7:29pm

on 07/31/06 at 13:35:13, EEsoon2bJD wrote:

Many of the people i work with at the PTO have MSEE degrees but were hired at the same level as those with just a BS (gs7/10). Grades are more important, from what i can tell. In fact i was hired at a higher level because of my work experience and decent GPA, but i don't have a MSEE (i have a non-tech Masters which helped not at all).

From what i've been told, an MSEE is just more of the same stuff as a BS. I'm not saying that myself, but i've been told by those with one, FWIW.

Good luck.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Jul 31^st, 2006, 7:33pm

on 07/31/06 at 19:29:23, guest wrote:

By "same stuff" i meant that they wish they hadn't spend the extra time. I would tend to disagree, but with a law degree i'm not certain that it would really be worth the opportunity cost to you.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by EEsoon2bJD on Aug 1^st, 2006, 11:01am

Isaac, Guest -

Thank you for your prompt response. It would seem that I need to weigh what extrinsic benefit I would recieve from the degree with it's related opportunity cost (an additional 1 or 1.5 years of schooling). It is disheartening to hear that the USPTO doesn't give a MSEE very much, if any, weight...

As a sidenote, did anyone else notice that the incentive for EE's and CompE's has been decreased by 100 dollars? It is now 9,900 instead 10,000 for the ceiling of the bonus. Have a lot of EE's and CompE's been accepting positions? Or has the USPTO ran afoul of some federal regulation regarding bonus structures?

The information is on the USPTO jobfair site (I would normally post the link -- but I just registered this account).

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by smokie on Aug 2^nd, 2006, 9:24am

Hey Guys -
I have very recently started studying for the Patenet Bar Exam and am wondering whether I should reapply for a job with the USPTO after I pass it.
I am a molecular biologist by training (Ph.D) and had already sent in an application to the USPTO (a little over 2 months ago) in the hopes of being interviewed, but since I have not heard back, I can safely assume that I don't have much of a chance.
Will having passed the Patent Bar Exam boost my chances for an interview or should I just stick with finding a job in the private sector?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Aug 2^nd, 2006, 9:56am

on 08/02/06 at 09:24:24, smokie wrote:

Hey Guys -
I have very recently started studying for the Patenet Bar Exam and am wondering whether I should reapply for a job with the USPTO after I pass it.

I don't think passing the patent bar exam will greatly enhance your chances of getting a job at the USPTO. I'd still recommend that you go ahead and take the exam as you have planned.

If you want to work at the PTO, and you haven't gotten much response based on your application, I'd sugggest attempting to make some contacts with the hiring supervisors in art units that employ your technical specialty. If nothing else, you may get an impression of when they will be hiring.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by smokie on Aug 2^nd, 2006, 10:25am

Sounds good - thanks Issac.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 2^nd, 2006, 12:41pm

on 08/02/06 at 09:24:24, smokie wrote:

I would agree with Isaac and maybe add a couple tips.

Try to get your resume in the hands of someone who has to fill positions - that is what helped me. Scan your resume in or get a pdf copy ready to email so they have it in their hands. Right now your resume is sitting in a pile somewhere with lots of others which will be shuffled through, but if you get it circulating it might help.

If you can get to a job fair (there is one soon i think) and make a personal contact it may also help. Certain TCs are just hot right now and others just don't need nearly as many people, so you have to not be shy about making personal contact and pursuing the job. Don't be pushy, but be persistent.

Good luck.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by SeanUMD on Aug 3^rd, 2006, 6:35am

Hello,

I am a graduate student at the University of Maryland getting ready to receive my PhD in Immunology in Dec -early January. I'm interested in starting a career in patent law, but can not decide whether to pursue a career at the USPTO or at a private law firm. Due to my indecisiveness, I plan on applying for jobs at both locations and then decide. My question is, since I will not defend my thesis until Dec-early Jan. (meaning I can not leave my current lab position until then) when should I start applying for jobs? I see all these posts on the forums stating that individuals have not heard back from the USPTO for 2 months or more. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by smokie on Aug 3^rd, 2006, 1:24pm

Hey Sean UMD
I am a newcomer to the field of patents as well and I have done just what you are thinking of doing, though I am not the least indecisive about where I should be applying. I have applied for a job at the USPTO as well as in the private sector and I plan on working where ever I get the job! In my mind, applying to one should'nt blind you the possibiilities of the other.
By the way, I've been lead to believe that if the PTO is interested in you and a position is available they will contact you fairly quickly. In case nothing is available currently, they will still have your resume on file for a few months. I would suggest you wait to contact the PTO until you are close to finishing or finished - that way they will have your most current resume on file. In the meanwhile, keep checking the site to see if they plan on having a job fair related to your field of work some time soon.
It has been MY experice that it will take some time to get the job you want (depending on your training - we life science guys are not as in demand as the Physical science guys :-/). So, starting early may be key to spending the least amount of time job searching after you graduate. Starting early will also get you making some contacts in the field and you would be surprised at how the feed back will help your resume evolve. Start e-mailing (or calling if you are comfortable with that) partners in firms where you may want to work. Ask around for internships or tech. advisor positions and explain your situation and if you don't have a job offer by the time you are done with your defense - just write back again and give them an updated resume.
I hope this helps you.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by smokie on Aug 3^rd, 2006, 1:42pm

Re: "I would agree with Isaac and maybe add a couple tips"

Hello Guest -
Thanks for the tip. I was not aware that there is a job fair coming up for those with backgrounds in the Life Sciences (mine being Molecular and Cell Biology specifically). I'll check out the PTO site and see if I find a listing.
By the way, what do you mean by "get your resume in the hands of someone who has to fill positions"? I had called the HR people at the PTO to check the status of my application - and I received an almost automated response from the lady I talked with:
"- We have your JARS application"
"- have received the material you sent by mail (your resume, transcripts, etc)"
"- this material has yet to be entered into our database"
"- Hiring Managers are able and often do contact individuals based on the information present in the online JARS"
"- Wait for the managers to contact you and DO NOT contact them!"
At the end of that 'conversation' I was seriously expecting her to say: "bleep - this is the end of the recording"

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Aug 3^rd, 2006, 1:54pm

on 08/03/06 at 13:42:44, smokie wrote:

Thanks for the tip. I was not aware that there is a job fair coming up for those with backgrounds in the Life Sciences (mine being Molecular and Cell Biology specifically). I'll check out the PTO site and see if I find a listing.

I did not see any listings for life science job fairs.

Quote:

"- Wait for the managers to contact you and DO NOT contact them!"

Did she say what dire thing would happen if you contacted a manager?

I'm not all that surprised that HR doesn't want you to contact the managers (SPEs). They are busy people. OTOH, I assume that HR departments everywhere would say the same thing.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 3^rd, 2006, 2:25pm

Big day's comin! Who else is starting on Sept. 18th with me?
;D

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 3^rd, 2006, 5:12pm

on 08/03/06 at 13:42:44, smokie wrote:

Like i said, its not easy to get hired in some TC's and it might help to make some contacts. That's it. The hiring contacts are listed on the uspto careers website, WITH their phone numbers. I'm not going to tell you to go against what the HR people are telling you, i wouldn't THINK of contradicting them. ;D

Not sure you are going to want to work here if/when the new rule changes take effect this winter anyhow. They think they have problems retaining people now....

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 3^rd, 2006, 5:54pm

on 08/03/06 at 17:12:09, guest wrote:

what kind of rule changes?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 3^rd, 2006, 6:05pm

on 08/03/06 at 17:54:10, guest wrote:

what kind of rule changes?

Said enough already. Do a search, but you might not understand exactly how it will effect you. Won't really effect you until you've been there at least 12 months anyhow, until after final, which will be right after people are coming out of the new training cycle, with their new promotions and increased production goals in tow, with their new recruitment bonuses which makes them indentured (at least for a term, unless they have the money to pay back ... yeah, that going to happen!).

The POPA website must have some stuff on it. If you're hired support POPA, join POPA.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by smokie on Aug 3^rd, 2006, 10:46pm

on 08/03/06 at 13:54:37, Isaac wrote:

I did not see any listings for life science job fairs.

Did she say what dire thing would happen if you contacted a manager?

I'm not all that surprised that HR doesn't want you to contact the managers (SPEs). They are busy people. OTOH, I assume that HR departments everywhere would say the same thing.

No - I don't believe that there is a job fair coming up for the life sciencers either.

I was never told of the DIRE thing that would happen to me if I contacted an SPE but her voice suggested that she would personally reach through the phone line and shake me if I dared think of doing such a thing :D
I don't doubt that these guys (SPE's) are extremely busy and resent intrusions on their time - but I supposed that they would have been more willing to donate some of their time since their names and numbers are listed on the PTO website and it is stated that they can indeed be contacted to answer questions.
Well, I e-mailed the contact I felt was incharge of looking to hire us (Molec. Biol. guys), but STRANGELY - no response. I'm not really disappointed as I was not expecting much, I may give it one more try and see if I get anywhere.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by smokie on Aug 3^rd, 2006, 10:59pm

on 08/03/06 at 17:12:09, guest wrote:

I'm not going to tell you to go against what the HR people are telling you, i wouldn't THINK of contradicting them. ;D

Not sure you are going to want to work here if/when the new rule changes take effect this winter anyhow. They think they have problems retaining people now....

Ofcourse NOT!!! One must never think to contradict the wisdom of the great HR department ;D Atleast that's what they would have you think.

In my experience, bypassing HR is the best move one can make. I finally started getting positives responses to my resume once I started going around HR and contacting the partners in the firms I am interested in working with (imagine that). I wish I had learned this trick a few months ago.

I'll try again to contact an SPE and see what happens. Although, I would love to move to the DC area and work at the PTO - I will not be crying if I don't get a response and find a job closer to home, especially as you hinted that dark clouds be loomin' on the horizon.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 4^th, 2006, 9:23pm

how long do you have to work to be able to contribute to ur 401k (TSP?)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 5^th, 2006, 7:34am

on 08/04/06 at 21:23:40, guest wrote:

how long do you have to work to be able to contribute to ur 401k (TSP?)

Immediately. However, the agency won't match the contribution until after a year, I believe.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Jack on Aug 5^th, 2006, 1:42pm

How long does it take for the interview process to get rolling? I summitted an application a little over a month ago and haven't heard anything. Is that typical? Is it a bad sign? Thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 5^th, 2006, 5:33pm

on 08/05/06 at 13:42:52, Jack wrote:

How long does it take for the interview process to get rolling? I summitted an application a little over a month ago and haven't heard anything. Is that typical? Is it a bad sign? Thanks.

even if you are highly qualified, it may take forever for you to be contacted. so GO TO THE JOB FAIR. or get in contact with an spe.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 6^th, 2006, 5:05pm

does anyone know if they give the recruitment bonus payment at the beginning or end of the 1st year?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by SeanUMD on Aug 6^th, 2006, 8:28pm

As I stated before on this forum, I am interested in using my PhD in immunology as a patent examiner at the USPTO or as an intellectual property associate in a private law firm. My question is for those individuals that work at the USPTO. Could you please give me some insight into the interview process--basically the step-by-step process and some of the questions that they will ask me.

Also, for those individuals that have been hired at private law firms as intellectual property associates--could you answer the same question.

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 6^th, 2006, 9:02pm

on 08/06/06 at 20:28:53, SeanUMD wrote:

if you submit the application through jars, an SPE will contact you if they are interested in hiring you. The interview could be highly technical, or it could be non technical, it all depends on what the SPE wants to know.

If the SPE wants to hire you, that will be your only interview and he will recommend you to HR for hire. If the SPE determines that there is a better fit for you, he/she will give ur info to an SPE in an art unit that is more appropriate and that SPE will interview you.

if you wait wait wait for someone to get back to you, you may be waiting forever. so you must be proactive in terms of trying to get in contact with SPEs in your field, sending them resumes directly, etc.

don't hold your breath though, the life sciences positions are very competitive, just because there are a lot less of them than EE/CPE positions.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Sean on Aug 7^th, 2006, 11:16am

jfakjakfjkasfjd

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Conrad on Aug 7^th, 2006, 11:25am

Thank you Guest!

I have a few more questions based on your response, but have had trouble posting messages that are longer. It keeps recognizing it as spam. I will get back to you with some follow-up questions in the future.

Thanks again,

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by SeanUMD on Aug 8^th, 2006, 8:21am

Thanks for the reply again. As far as the technical-based questions , will they basically be trying to test my overall scientific knowledge. Could you please clarify so that I am on the same page. As far as non-technical based question, could you please provide me with a few examples. Thank you!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by SeanUMD on Aug 8^th, 2006, 8:26am

In addition, I forgot to add a few more comments.

In your recent post you stated to get my resume in the hands of an SPE. First off, I realize this is probably a dumb question, but what does SPE stand for and how do I get my resume in their hands. Through a USPTO career fair?

Also, you stated that the life science positions are very competative. I graduated with a BS in 2001 with a GPA=3.98 and I will be graduating in Dec 2006 with a PhD from UMD's doctorate program with a GPA=3.8. With these GPAs, and other awards/achievements and excellent recommendations, do you consider me competative for a position. Could you offer any suggestions as to how I could strengthen my resume and chances of obtaining a USPTO patent examiner position. Thank you!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 8^th, 2006, 3:55pm

on 08/08/06 at 08:26:30, SeanUMD wrote:

lol, you shouldn't have any problem then.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Jonathan on Aug 8^th, 2006, 4:23pm

on 08/08/06 at 08:26:30, SeanUMD wrote:

First off, I realize this is probably a dumb question, but what does SPE stand for and how do I get my resume in their hands.

Supervisory Patent Examiner - basically the immediate manager of a group of patent examiners.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 8^th, 2006, 5:38pm

on 08/08/06 at 16:23:07, Jonathan wrote:

Supervisory Patent Examiner - basically the immediate manager of a group of patent examiners.

Actually its Supervisory Primary Examiner. They are promoted from the pool of Primary Examiners, and once promoted they are no longer members of the POPA bargaining unit and have crossed over to the dark side... they are <gulp> managers.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Jonathan on Aug 8^th, 2006, 5:50pm

More actually, both terms are used in the MPEP. S. Patent E. seems to be used more often based on a search of both terms.

This is all semantics, though. Both refer to the same type of immediate manager of a group of examiners.

Is S. Primary E. more commonly used in day to day interaction at the PTO?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by SeanUMD on Aug 8^th, 2006, 6:57pm

Thanks for defining SPE for me. How do I go about making sure my resume gets in an SPE's hands and not HR?

what do you mean by POPA bargaining unit? Is this sort analogous to a so called union of primary examiners so to speak?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 9^th, 2006, 12:24am

holy moly how are you supposed to afford the ****n@carlyle on an entry level examiner's salary!?!?!

does anyone know ppl that live there? what do they think?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 9^th, 2006, 10:47am

on 08/08/06 at 17:50:06, Jonathan wrote:

Everybody just calls them SPE (think one word, like SPEE!), but i just think that 'Primary' rather than 'Patent' is more accurate. Neither is incorrect.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Jonathan on Aug 9^th, 2006, 11:13am

Good to know.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 9^th, 2006, 1:26pm

My hiring package was submitted and processed by HR last week. I called to check the status this week and they told me that I had to be in the top 3 of this list before they could extend the official offer. Does anyone know anything about this list or how long it might be before i get an offer or if i should start looking elsewhere?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 9^th, 2006, 7:55pm

on 08/09/06 at 13:26:37, guest wrote:

need more details on your situation... when did you turn in your jars, when did you interview, with who and so on

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 10^th, 2006, 4:23am

Take HR with a grain of salt. One day they quote my transcripts to me, the next day they say they can't find them.

HR has to find you qualified from JARS and transcripts, and a SPE has to recommend hiring you. If those two things happen, you should be good.

In normal government hiring, HR goes over the applications and awards points for qualifications. They make piles of best qualified, plain qualified, and thanks anyway. The veterans get some extra points. Then the top three (or so) by the points are pulled in for interviews. But this process assumes a single opening. USPTO wants to hire 1000 examiners a year, so interview at least 100 a month. Even if 75 of these are EE/CE, there is still room.

HR will tell you that they will pass some apps to the SPEs from JARS, probably the top three. But the boards confirm my experience that it's better not to rely on that at all. Do Jars, get HR to admit you are qualified, then go directly to the SPE and get him/her to ask HR to hire you.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by a bee on Aug 11^th, 2006, 6:08pm

Do be a strong candidate in JARS, what do you normally need as far as scores go? 3,4, or 5s and how many?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Aug 12^th, 2006, 7:30am

on 08/11/06 at 18:08:54, a bee wrote:

Do be a strong candidate in JARS, what do you normally need as far as scores go? 3,4, or 5s and how many?

Given the fact that the PTO hires large numbers of candidates who are straight out of college and have essentially no relevant work experience, I'm not sure this question is all that meaningful.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by a bee on Aug 12^th, 2006, 9:49am

That makes sense. Then me ask this, if you apply for one area, lets say hydraulic systems and then u get an opportunity in another area, do you have to redo JARS or do they just use your existing application?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 12^th, 2006, 10:25am

on 08/12/06 at 09:49:02, a bee wrote:

I think that your JARS application stays active for a period of time and you don't have to redo it. Not positive, but this is a question HR could help you with.

In relation to Isaac's response to your last question, i think that if you answer the questions truthfully, and in the context of you having a UG in a science field, you should be a good candidate. You might not have a lot of 5's (or maybe none), but in certain areas they just need lots of people. Personally i came with lots of work experience and degrees (UG and G) that could be used in a few different areas and they asked me where i would like to work (my contact offered to pass my resume/transcripts on to different areas where there was a high demand). Its really a equation of the supply and the demand within the different TCs.

Good luck.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Aug 12^th, 2006, 6:12pm

Who do you list for the three references required by JARS? I wouldn't want to list one, let alone three people from my current employer. I don't want them to know I'm applying elsewhere. :P

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 13^th, 2006, 9:03am

They won't contact your references until after you interview and you give them permission to contact them. At that time you will have the opportunity to change the references if you would like to.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Aug 13^th, 2006, 9:47am

on 08/12/06 at 09:49:02, a bee wrote:

As I recall the questions on JARS were area specific. By not filling out an area specific questionaire, you probably won't appear to be a strong candidate in the other area.

Title: Re: ****n Carlyle
Post by patent.b on Aug 13^th, 2006, 1:57pm

There are quite a few examiners living here, including new hires.
Additionally, there are transportation benefits! It is close enough to walk to work, so you don't need a car. Close enough to walk to the metro, and the building sells discounted metro tickets. Upon request, the building provides each resident with a monthly DASH bus pass for free. I figure between parking and insurance, it saves me at least $200/mo., plus the time I'd lose in traffic or commuting. But I suppose overall it depends on each person's circumstances.

NOTE: I'm not advertising . . . I'm answering a posted question.

Title: Re: ****n Carlyle
Post by guest on Aug 13^th, 2006, 5:18pm

You should ask them for a price break for doing advertising for them here.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Inquisitive Mind on Aug 13^th, 2006, 10:20pm

I see peoples response about the interview and i was wondering about techinical questions. Are we just looking at general knowledge of my area (what i learned in my class) or in depth explanations about specifics?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Aug 14^th, 2006, 8:24am

I just received an unofficial offer and the SPE wants me to start right away and make it into the last 3(?) wk training course. I currently work for a different govt agency, but I was looking for a change and a little less travel since I just had a baby. I currently work very hard at my job, but I am not required to put in a lot of OT.

At first I thought this job was very flexible and family friendly, but I am starting to have doubts based on what I've read online. I will be taking a pretty hefty paycut for this position, but am hoping to make the promotions at the schedule they are allowable (6m and then 1 yr each). Is this reasonable? It seems like to potential to climb the GS ladder is better than at my current agency (higher GS-level at non-competative status), but I can not work excessive OT to get there.

I am also worried about the family friendly aspect (we have a great home daycare so we don't need the on-site daycare). My husband works later afternoons, evenings, and a lot of weekends, so I can not work very late or a lot of OT. I would not do this to my child (never seeing her) and I couldn't afford the extra child care (esp with the paycut!).

I think the job would be an interesting change for me, but is it too difficult with young kids?

I need to make a decision this week, so any input would be great. Thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 14^th, 2006, 9:20am

Can anyone shed any light on the 6-month promotion for new examiners.

Assuming you start at say GS-7 step 4, do you go up to GS-9 step 4 at the 6-month promotion?

Also, assuming you get the 6-month promotion, how long after that are you eligible for your next promotion? Thx.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Aug 14^th, 2006, 9:36am

on 08/14/06 at 09:20:12, guest wrote:

Can anyone shed any light on the 6-month promotion for new examiners.

Assuming you start at say GS-7 step 4, do you go up to GS-9 step 4 at the 6-month promotion?

Decidely not. I think the standard promotion is a handful of steps. For example GS-7 step 10 to GS-9 step 3 or 4 (or something like that).

Quote:

Also, assuming you get the 6-month promotion, how long after that are you eligible for your next promotion? Thx.

You would be eligible for the annual promotion at the 12 month point.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 14^th, 2006, 9:50am

<< Decidely not. I think the standard promotion is a handful of steps. For example GS-7 step 10 to GS-9 step 3 or 4 (or something like that). >>

I'm confused . . . According to the latest salary table that I have a GS-7/10 would be at $56,797 and a GS-9/4 would be at $55,852 . . . so you would make LESS after your promotion ? ! ? !

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Aug 14^th, 2006, 10:28am

[quote author=guest link=board=patent_agents;num=1107208950;start=540#554 date=08/14/06 at 09:50:12I'm confused . . . According to the latest salary table that I have a GS-7/10 would be at $56,797 and a GS-9/4 would be at $55,852 . . . so you would make LESS after your promotion ? ! ? !
[/quote]

You would be promoted to a step level at which you will make more money but that won't translate to moving all the way to GS-9/10. I seem to recall about a 4k bump in salary. It's entirely possible that I misrember how many steps were involved.

Also the tables you are looking at are either not current, or are not the tables applicable for patent examiners.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 14^th, 2006, 1:35pm

on 08/14/06 at 09:20:12, guest wrote:

from what i've heard, its generally whatever step you're at, minus 3 steps

so you would go from gs7 step 10 to gs 9 step 7

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 14^th, 2006, 1:35pm

Could someone come in as a GS11 and be able to learn the job and handle the quota within a 1-yr probabtionary period? If so, do you thinks it's possible without much OT?

Title: Re: ****n Carlyle
Post by guest on Aug 14^th, 2006, 5:01pm

on 08/13/06 at 17:18:18, guest wrote:

You should ask them for a price break for doing advertising for them here.

If you lived there, you would extol it too.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 14^th, 2006, 5:12pm

on 08/14/06 at 13:35:22, guest wrote:

Could someone come in as a GS11 and be able to learn the job and handle the quota within a 1-yr probabtionary period? If so, do you thinks it's possible without much OT?

The quota is not a big deal if you're somewhat disciplined to merely work during work hours (imagine that!). If you get placed in an art unit whose subject matter you enjoy reading about, there should be no problem.

What few people realize is that, just as some people don't like technical reading and would much rather do something hands-on (actual engineering), there are a lot of people for whom the opposite is true. If you feel like you're part of the latter, then patent examining will not be too stressful and actually somewhat enjoyable to an extent.

Or disregard this post as some management related shill, I don't care.

Title: Re: ****n Carlyle
Post by guest on Aug 14^th, 2006, 7:09pm

on 08/14/06 at 17:01:41, guest wrote:

If you lived there, you would extol it too.

I do live there and have for some time. Don't be so defensive, it was a f-ing joke.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 14^th, 2006, 7:40pm

on 08/14/06 at 17:12:20, guest wrote:

.... then patent examining will not be too stressful and actually somewhat enjoyable to an extent.

I love it! "... somewhat enjoyable to an extent." That pretty much sums it up - what a resounding vote of confidence ... or at least a somewhat resounding vote ... to an extent....

OK, you say "some people" don't enjoy reading technical material and then go on to say that "a lot" of people do. Come on now, i think its the other way around! You have to at least sound reasonable to be taken seriously. The rate that people leave this job is astounding, and the government has recognized this fact repeatedly, so if you enjoy it then good for you but don't misrepresent reality.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by ThinkingabouttheUSPTO on Aug 15^th, 2006, 5:18pm

When filling out the JARS application online it asks:

Do you have at least one year of specialized experience equivalent to the GS - 05 grade level? Yes No
Do you have at least one year of specialized experience equivalent to the GS - 07 grade level? Yes No
Do you have at least one year of specialized experience equivalent to the GS - 09 grade level? Yes No

I have a bachelors in EE and 2+ years of experience as an engineer. Should I check yes for GS5 and GS7, but no for GS9?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 17^th, 2006, 5:44pm

on 08/14/06 at 19:40:05, guest wrote:

OK, you say "some people" don't enjoy reading technical material and then go on to say that "a lot" of people do. Come on now, i think its the other way around!

That's very true. I typed the paragraph quick so I didn't exactly think that someone would interpret what I wrote so precisely. Although, if someone interpreted what I wrote so literally and wanted to become a patent examiner purely because they read that a lot of OTHER people didn't mind reading technical material, I think they have bigger problems.

Title: Re: ****n Carlyle
Post by guest on Aug 17^th, 2006, 5:49pm

on 08/14/06 at 19:09:50, guest wrote:

I do live there and have for some time. Don't be so defensive, it was a f-ing joke.

[quote author=guest link=board=patent_agents;num=1107208950;start=555#562 date=08/14/06 at 19:09:50]

Don't be so defensive, it was a f-ing joke.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest4 on Aug 17^th, 2006, 6:32pm

Just thought I'd try to comment on a few questions that I've seen posted here. I've been at the PTO about 6 months and I really like the job so far. After finishing my PhD in chemistry last year I knew that lab work was not for me!

When I started, the group of chemistry and biotech people who started with me were told that we were 100 people that were selected from 500 people that applied for the jobs in the 2006 fiscal year. So I think the chem/bio jobs are fairly competitive compared to engineering, where they need more people and have MUCH lower retention rates.

In the group of people that started with me there is quite a bit of diversity with regard to the backgrounds of people hired. I would say the majority are science PhDs (some fresh out of school / post doc, some who have worked in industry for a few years, some who had been in industry for many, many years). There were a few people with masters degrees + industry experience. There was no one who had only a science BA, unless they also have a law degree. There were quite a few people (about 25% of the group) that have law degrees. Several in the group had worked as technical specialists / agents.

Hope that helps someone!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Clueless on Aug 18^th, 2006, 1:53pm

I have a Ms degree and GPA is 3.9. I got the step 7/10 offer, but my friend who has Bs degree only got the same salary range. I think it is kinda unfair! Does anybody know if I will get bigger promotion in the future or why they are treating me the same grade level as somebody who has bs degree only ??? :-/

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Cze on Aug 18^th, 2006, 4:57pm

i recently sent my paperwork to a lady called cathy who works in patent hiring center. she replied me that the HR gonna call me regarding the job offer. i was wondering if i'm pretty much getting hired. does that mean i'm alrleady qualified? from what she said to me, i'm somehow a little bit skeptical about the chances of getting hired. what do you guys think?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Aug 18^th, 2006, 6:31pm

Clueless: Welcome to the federal government pay system! I don't work for the patent office but I am civil service. Don't let it get to you.

I was able to start at GS-7 instead of GS-5 due to my 3.6 GPA. The not so funny thing is the guys with 2.5 averages who starged at GS-5 ended up making it to GS-12 approx the same time I did, because they make people like myself wait longer after being eligible for 12. I really doubt that would be the case at the patent office since (I believe) their working level is 13.

If you let it bother you.. your attitude will drop and the next thing you know you're just another cynical unmotivated federal employee.:( God knows we have enough hard core do-nothings in the federal government that really can't be fired. That's why they're trying to switch over to nsps.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 19^th, 2006, 10:12pm

Hello,

I left the PTO a year ago, and have been considering returning to the job. The high cost of housing was the primary reason I left, but I hear the PTO is considering setting up satellite offices. Is there any word on when to expect these offices up and running? I looked at the cost & quality of houses that are available in Fredericksburg and it still looks more expensive than I could afford as GS-9/Step 10. I understand Hotelling is up and running, but it would probably take at least 2 years to reach the GS-12 pay grade. So what is the housing situation in the commuting area? (commuting area: anything within a two hour drive/ride)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 20^th, 2006, 8:51am

ok, i need someone that is knowledgeable about the traffic in this area to answer this question for me.

if i wanted to get to the PTO around 7-7:15, and im driving from the fair oaks mall area, how long would it take me to get there.... is this early enough that i avoid the rush hour traffic?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 20^th, 2006, 8:56am

sorry, left out one important detail... without traffic, the drive is usually around 25 mins.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 20^th, 2006, 9:00am

question for new hires doing the PTAcademy...

my first day, im supposed to report at 7:30 am. Is this going to be the start time for the WHOLE 8 month period?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Aug 20^th, 2006, 4:12pm

Regarding the PTA starting times: every new training group is a little different (they're still tweaking), but most likely, 7:30 will be the starting time everyday until you work on live cases. Then you will get some more leeway to show up a few hours later.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by paul1234 on Aug 20^th, 2006, 10:53pm

hello everyone
i have read a bit through the forum but i still want to ask a few questions.
I have been offered a job at USPTO as a GS-7 level 10.
1. is there any way to ask to become a GS-9
2. I am supposed to start on september 18 is there any relocation aid since i am moving from the midwest.
3. Would they match any other offers if i have other offers available.
thank you very much and i am thankfull for all your help.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by paul1234 on Aug 20^th, 2006, 10:55pm

I got a few more question
sorry for all the trouble
thank you for all your help.

1. Where would you suggest to live? and how much is the rent
2. regarding the work incentive i am an electrical engineer with two years experinece when would they give the incentive.
3. there is 8 month training and they say there is a quick promotion after 6 months is it 6 months after i start working or after the training.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by paul1234 on Aug 20^th, 2006, 10:57pm

my last question i promise.
(i hope)
1. Does the USPTO pay for business school if i would to one part time since i already have a GMAT.
2. How are the medical benefits and how much.
3. for the bonus do i have to sign something lie a 4 year contract and if i wanna leave would i be penalized.

Thank you again for your help and i am waiting for your answer.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Potential wannabe on Aug 22^nd, 2006, 10:08pm

Am I a good fit? Would they want someone like me?

My educational background is in chemical engineering but I wandered away to pursue other interests. Honestly I didn't want to: (1) spend time on the road, (2) put in long/irregular hours, (3) work in a lab/factory or (4) deal with the politics of academia. Now I'm re-visiting my past and thinking intellectual property might be a good fit for me.

Here's me: I enjoy reading, writing and critical thinking while seated at a comfortable desk. I can process and parse technical information a lot quicker than other people (including PhDs). I love cracking a variety of technical puzzles but ultimately prefer breadth to depth. I like to be around other educated or intelligent people of all ages and backgrounds but don't want close collaboration. I'm productive for 6-10 hours at a time without prodding but resent being pushed further and refuse to sacrifice my personal life. I'm fairly tolerant of an employer's shortcomings as long as I don't feel I am being personally disrespected or singled out.

I have a BS/MS in chemical engineering without any relevant work experience. I nearly completed a Ph.D. in chemical engineering but walked away before turning in my dissertation. I consulted on a couple of quick cases for an IP law firm and found it interesting enough, but declined their job offer because they wanted me to work 60 hours/week plus go to law school at night. I'm 32.

Any thoughts on if I would be a good patent examiner and fit in at the USPTO?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 25^th, 2006, 7:57pm

I was wondering about schedules once training is over.
On the website, it says there are flexible work schedules, you can come in as early as 5:30am or as late as 11:30. I was told I could work either 3, 4 or 5 days a week at my interview. On the CD I got from the PTO job fair, there were patent examiners saying they could leave work in the middle of the day to play golf or do grocery shopping. This is hard for me to believe! My interviewer said you had to be at work within the same hour every day. What happened to maxi flex where you're allowed flexible starting and ending times? Is that over? Is this one of the changes that management is trying to make, to make work hours less flexible?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Aug 26^th, 2006, 1:46pm

I don't think anyone's getting rid of the flex schedules anytime soon. That wouldn't be... productive.

On the other hand, I believe you do have to "earn" the ability to set your own schedule. If your SPE doesn't see you making production while working "regular" hours of the day, they aren't going to let you just do as you please.

I'm still in training, so (above) is not from personal experience...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 29^th, 2006, 9:37am

Whats better, trying to get a job interview at a job fair or trying to get a job interview at the PTO within whatever art unit your being considered?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Joseph Smith on Aug 29^th, 2006, 2:25pm

I just got hired. ;D I am really looking forward to this new position and new location. I am driving there from CA and am wondering if anyone has any experience with finding a place to share through craigslist. Are roomate agencies more effective than responding to personal ads for rentals? thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by J Smith on Aug 29^th, 2006, 2:28pm

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 29^th, 2006, 2:47pm

I'll be starting at the PTO in mid-September.

I was just curious as to the possibility for examiners to "lateral" to other art units (e.g. chemical to biotech or vice-versa) assuming that such person is equally qualified for a position in each area.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 29^th, 2006, 2:51pm

on 08/29/06 at 14:28:11, J Smith wrote:

Depending on your starting date, you may want to consider getting a furnished studio or 1-BR on a short-term lease (e.g. 3 months). That would give you more time to learn the area and the different housing options/arrangements that are available.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by dwashington on Aug 29^th, 2006, 3:52pm

I have applied for jobs at the Patent Office and never get interviewed. I am a NHIV at the Missile Defense Agency which is basically a 15 step 2 or 14 step 8. I am a Mechanical engineer with a master's from Hopkins. What gives with the USPTO when it comes to hiring. THe only thing I can think of is that my rank disqualifies me from working there. Any other suggestions or rationales would be helpful before I apply again. I should at least get an interview.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 29^th, 2006, 4:05pm

on 08/29/06 at 15:52:41, dwashington wrote:

Stay where you are and don't bother with the PTO. Trust me, you'll regret it. You must be making what, $120K or so? Are your hours reasonable for that kind of bank? If you come to the PTO you'll start about $75K (gs11/10) at best, maybe less (gs9). For that you'll have to grind thru and work unpaid OT. Don't bother.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by paul1234 on Aug 29^th, 2006, 10:12pm

hello everyone
i was wondering i was hired as a gs-7 level 10
how long would it actually take to get to the higher levels like gs 13 and gs 14.
i have been told first it would take 6 years by my interviewer but i talked to another person in hr and she told me something else.
how long would it take to get into that 100000 and more bracket of salary.
i am an electrical engineer and got 8000 insentive should i take it and sign up for four years.
can any one help me where to live in alexandria or the surrounding area? is it better to live in baltimore since it is cheaper.
any ideas regarding roomates.
i am starting on spetember 18 and wanted to know if any one esle here starts the same day.
let me know i will be waiting for your responces.
thank you very much.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 30^th, 2006, 5:09am

Ouch! Baltimore! Don't even think about it! The commute time would kill you.

If you can't afford the local place they keep talking about in this thread, I would look along the VRE train lines. Apparently the manassus line is more timely than the fredericksburg line, so try along there. search on VRE to find the maps.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Aug 30^th, 2006, 8:39am

on 08/30/06 at 05:09:49, guest wrote:

When I was at the PTO some examiners did commute seemingly ridiculous distances. Some did commute from Baltimore and from West Virginia. I recall trying to consult with one primary examiner and finding out that his priniciple residence was in Florida.

Those examiners with the lengthy commutes were not junior examiners and they presumably worked schedules that reduced the number of times they had to commute to the office to something they found physically and economically tolerable. I couldn't recommend such a strategy for an examiner still in his probationary period.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by paul1234 on Aug 30^th, 2006, 10:04am

isaac
please answer me this question:
would you recomd going to uspto?
i am an engineer with two years experince and i have another offer offer for 58000 here in indaina but the commute is very long.
would you recomend going to the USPTO and how long it would take me a gs7 leve 10 to reach some where like gs-14 level and those high salaries that they have.
also are the benefits that good as they say?
thank you very much.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Aug 30^th, 2006, 10:19am

on 08/30/06 at 10:04:42, paul1234 wrote:

isaac
please answer me this question:
would you recomd going to uspto?
i am an engineer with two years experince and i have another offer offer for 58000 here in indaina but the commute is very long.

The PTO benefits are very good. However, the DC metro area is a very expensive place to live. When comparing salaries and benefits you must take that into account.

Quote:

would you recomend going to the USPTO and how long it would take me a gs7 leve 10 to reach some where like gs-14 level and those high salaries that they have.

There are too many variables involved for me to speculate on how long it would take to reach GS-14. You might not ever make it.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by paul1234 on Aug 30^th, 2006, 10:41am

isaac
is it even possiable to live in washington on 57000 a year?
so you saying even if i work hard and reach all the goal i might never reach those high paying salaries?
i have been told by SPE that i can reach them by 6-7 years on the interview than i called and talk to another HR person and she said it will take much longer to reach above 100000 a year even if you reach all the goals? So how long does it take if you reach all the goals?
They offer me 8000 for insentive should i take it and sign for four years? what if they fire me i will have to give it back?
do alot of people get fired or most of them quit?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 30^th, 2006, 10:52am

from what i've heard, it'll take generally 7 years to reach gs 14 provided that you stay on top of things and are able to meet and surpass your production.

With 57000, you'll be able to live in dc metro area, but don't expect to feel rich like you would if you lived in a less expensive area.

[quote author=paul1234 ]isaac
is it even possiable to live in washington on 57000 a year?
so you saying even if i work hard and reach all the goal i might never reach those high paying salaries?
i have been told by SPE that i can reach them by 6-7 years on the interview than i called and talk to another HR person and she said it will take much longer to reach above 100000 a year even if you reach all the goals? So how long does it take if you reach all the goals?
They offer me 8000 for insentive should i take it and sign for four years? what if they fire me i will have to give it back?
do alot of people get fired or most of them quit?[/quote]

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by J Smith on Aug 30^th, 2006, 1:34pm

on 08/29/06 at 14:51:44, guest wrote:

Thank you for the info. Do you/anyone know of any apartments that offer short-term leases and are furnished? I have a car but would really like to be within walking distance of public transportation. I've been browsing non-furnished rentals and found a few that look nice like Archstone and The Encore. It seems like a lot of people live in the ****n Carlyle despite the high rent. Can anyone give me a few names of apartment complexes that are lower priced than Carlyle and in a decent neighborhood in case I can't get into a furnished place? thanks
:)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Aug 30^th, 2006, 3:15pm

guest, if you're considering a job that requires writing, you really should put more effort into spelling. "Insentive" is reasonable for engineering but probably wouldn't look good on legal documents.. I'm not saying it to be rude and I certainly have my own challenges with writing. Most of us engineers only had two or three required writing classes.

I've also considered applying for the patent office. I would need to make 33% more around DC to maintain my current standard of living. I actually drove up to the patent office awhile back to see the area for myself. The carlyle is a very nice high-rise and is literally a 2-3 minute walk from the patent office buildings. The money you save in parking fees should be taken into account when considering the carlyle's high rent (the patent office parking garages aren't free).

I'm sure I would like the work.. but still haven't convinced myself I would enjoy living up there.

Don't take the job just for the starting bonus. Believe me, that money goes fast. I got $4k bonus to stay 1 year at my current job and, after taxes, that money was gone in a week!

best of luck

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 30^th, 2006, 9:28pm

on 08/29/06 at 14:47:43, guest wrote:

From the impression I get, if you are a lot more skilled in one art unit than another (work experience or college focus), or that other art unit does need people, then there's a "decent" chance of it happening during training.

However, if you are about as equally skilled in the art unit you are assigned to as the art unit you want to go to, or if they don't need people really, there is not much of a chance.

When you are being hired, there usually is a specific art unit for you to go into in mind even if you don't know it right away.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 30^th, 2006, 9:36pm

on 08/30/06 at 10:41:41, paul1234 wrote:

isaac
is it even possiable to live in washington on 57000 a year?

These kind of questions are really moot without knowing more about your situation. You could be single or married with two kids, have two cars or none, etc. If you are single, there is not much to worry about even if your rent is high. Even less so if you are getting a signing bonus and can use it to pay for any student loans or other lingering things.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 30^th, 2006, 9:45pm

on 08/29/06 at 15:52:41, dwashington wrote:

The only rationale I can think of is that the USPTO is just hiring mainly EEs and CoEs at the present time hence the signing bonuses for them specifically (since, contrary to popular belief, there are certain units that don't have a huge backlog). Of course, this reason could be completely wrong.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Aug 31^st, 2006, 6:06am

on 08/30/06 at 21:45:30, guest wrote:

The required production for an examiner at a GS-14 level is extremely high. It's hard to imagine a brand new hire being able to ramp his production up to the required level before getting fired.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by paul1234 on Aug 31^st, 2006, 6:31am

isaac
are you saying the all the new hires have a higher than normal chanse to get fired before reaching gs-14 levels.
i am planning to visit washington on sep 6 would really appricieate to meet with anyone who works in the uspto office to talk and ask questions.
i have a low gpa ( 2.8 BSEE from purdue) but i while a go i took the LSAT and got a 165 is there any school in the area possiable to get in (like Howard) or should i retake the LSAT.
What is the usual increase in pay when getting promoted as i understand it is usually every year, and how do you juno through the steps?
Regarding the other post i am married with no kids so is 57000 a year resonable possibility to live upon in the ****n Carelyle.
Thank you for all your help I am very greatfull for all your responces.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Aug 31^st, 2006, 7:07am

on 08/31/06 at 06:31:48, paul1234 wrote:

isaac
are you saying the all the new hires have a higher than normal chanse to get fired before reaching gs-14 levels.

No. The typical new hire has the normal chance of getting fired or quitting before reaching the gs-14 level and of successfully making it to GS-14.

My comment was directed only to the case of someone seeking to be hired at the GS-14 level. I believe the probability for him/her to reach the required production level prior to the end of the probationary period to be problematically low.

Quote:

i have a low gpa ( 2.8 BSEE from purdue) but i while a go i took the LSAT and got a 165 is there any school in the area possiable to get in (like Howard) or should i retake the LSAT.

I don't know if you can get into Howard. If you are working at the PTO, you'll probably want to attend a school with an evening program. Howard does not have one.

As for retaking the LSAT, I understand that many schools average the results if you take the test more than once. That would make it difficult to dramatically improve your score above 165.

Quote:

What is the usual increase in pay when getting promoted as i understand it is usually every year, and how do you juno through the steps?

I think there is series of posts in this forum that explores that in exhaustive detail. I'd recommend looking them up.

Quote:

Regarding the other post i am married with no kids so is 57000 a year resonable possibility to live upon in the ****n Carelyle.

You can live in the DC area on 57k if you are single and don't have a huge debt load. You won't be buying a house on that salary though.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by paul1234 on Aug 31^st, 2006, 7:11am

isaac
thank you very much for your help.
So you saying with my horriable gpa there is n chance for law school admissions? If yes any recomendations what to do?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Aug 31^st, 2006, 7:41am

on 08/31/06 at 07:11:24, paul1234 wrote:

isaac
thank you very much for your help.
So you saying with my horriable gpa there is n chance for law school admissions? If yes any recomendations what to do?

I didn't say anything about your chances for admission to law school. I have no idea what your chances are.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by paul1234 on Aug 31^st, 2006, 1:16pm

does any one know if they do tours i would like to come by next week take a look at the uspto office talk to some people.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by paul1234 on Aug 31^st, 2006, 1:20pm

Do most examiners make a career out of it or do most leave or go to law school? If i dont get into law school are the still lots of prospectives as an examiner?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 31^st, 2006, 2:55pm

on 08/31/06 at 06:06:08, Isaac wrote:

The required production for an examiner at a GS-14 level is extremely high. It's hard to imagine a brand new hire being able to ramp his production up to the required level before getting fired.

True if he did somewhere state in his application that he would only be hired at around the same pay level as he was working at. I do know some examiners though who took a paycut to work at the USPTO at a lower grade because of production so I wouldn't think the PTO wouldn't get back to someone regarding a job purely because they assume they'll ask for matching pay. But ya never know.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Aug 31^st, 2006, 3:11pm

on 08/31/06 at 13:20:49, paul1234 wrote:

If i dont get into law school are the still lots of prospectives as an examiner?

There's not many paths once you're an examiner that lead outside the PTO besides law school.

The PTO is stable, pays well, is flexible, and has great benefits. But if you have 'ambition' to be someone important or don't like the idea of reading all day, I wouldn't risk it. Either way, after six months or less of working, I'm sure you'll know which camp you fall in.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Sep 3^rd, 2006, 3:33pm

question about PTO gym.

do they have dumbells and a power rack? (where i can squat)

showering facilities? lockers? thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Sep 3^rd, 2006, 4:22pm

on 09/03/06 at 15:33:05, guest wrote:

question about PTO gym.

do they have dumbells and a power rack? (where i can squat)

showering facilities? lockers? thanks

Yes they have all of that.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by paul1234 on Sep 5^th, 2006, 2:44pm

hello every one
i just came to Washington DC to visit the USPTO before i start is there any way that i can meet with any one who works there would really appriciate it.
let me know i will be in DC today and tomorrow.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by paul1234 on Sep 5^th, 2006, 2:58pm

sorry forn the gramatical errors
long flight :()
If any one is available please send me a message and i would like to call you and may be meet if it is possiable.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by bond007 on Sep 6^th, 2006, 8:23am

hi, email me at manusawhney21 at yahoo dot com with your contact info and i will be able to guide if you need anything. i currently work at USPTO.
Manu

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by bond007 on Sep 6^th, 2006, 8:25am

hi paul, i also know someone who u can stay with if you need a place as well. email me: manusawhney21@yahoo.com

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Jack on Sep 6^th, 2006, 9:16pm

What kind of starting salary range would be normal for an engineering PhD (Materials Science) with ~5 yrs of post-grad experience? All experience is in research – no int’l property.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by J Smith on Sep 6^th, 2006, 11:23pm

I received a letter saying that I'd been offered and had accepted a position. Later on in the letter it says that the offer is contigent upon successful review of OF-306 and SF-85. I Faxed those forms in a few weeks ago and after about a week was officially offered the position. Now I'm wondering if I actually have the job, or if my security forms still need to be evaluated. What types of things will cause a person to not get a security clearance for the patent job??...I'm worried about driving across country and then finding out that I did not pass the security. Can anyone give me any information about this?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Jack on Sep 7^th, 2006, 6:05am

hey j smith: just out of curio, how long did the process take? I mean from interview until you received the letter?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Sep 7^th, 2006, 6:06am

on 09/06/06 at 23:23:11, J Smith wrote:

I received a letter saying that I'd been offered and had accepted a position. Later on in the letter it says that the offer is contigent upon successful review of OF-306 and SF-85.

In my case they did a background check over the next couple of days after I sent the forms in. I know that because people that I listed on the forms called to let me know that I was being checked out.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by bond007 on Sep 7^th, 2006, 6:18am

Hi J smith...i started about 2 months ago at the USPTO. Nowadays they continue to do the background checks even once you start working, i guess they have too many applications to get to. But overall, aslong as you have a clean criminal background and there are no discrepancies in your application/resume, you should be fine. But yeah unfortuntely there is a possibility of something bad happening as in hire/fire...but nothing to worry about if you are clean and have nothing to hide. Lemme know if you have any questions.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by bond007 on Sep 7^th, 2006, 6:20am

Hi jack...overall i think it takes about 2 months from the initial application filing to getting hired and starting.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Sep 7^th, 2006, 7:12am

bond007,

how do you like your job so far? have you started on any cases yet?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by bond007 on Sep 7^th, 2006, 8:18am

Hey, yeah, we are ofcourse on training for 8 months. but almost 2 months into it, we have been assigned 2 cases for now, but no deadlines to finish them. Just to kinda get our feet wet...and apply whatever we have learned so far. It is interesting!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Sep 7^th, 2006, 8:30am

nice, i have a couple of more questions

when and how long is the work day and lunch?
how do they split the big groups up?
how are people (guys) generally dressed?

thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by bond007 on Sep 7^th, 2006, 8:52am

The training schedule is 8:30 - 5pm for the 1st 2 weeks i think, then 7:30am-5pm for the remaining time, which i personally hate, but oh well. After the training time, you can pick your own schedule. You can have 4 days, 10 hrs, every friday off. We have 9 hour days mon-thursday, friday is 8 hrs, then every other friday off. Its up to you and your SPE to have your own schedule. Usuually, when you are new, your SPE would want you to start at least by 9:30am so that you are here majority of the day time if you need help.

We had 80 people join in july, so we have about 7 labs with 10-13 people each lab. Its a class room type setting in the lab with your own computers.

Dress is business casual (khaki, pants, dress shirts, tshirt with collar) and jeans on friday.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by J Smith on Sep 7^th, 2006, 11:42am

on 09/07/06 at 06:05:34, Jack wrote:

hey j smith: just out of curio, how long did the process take? I mean from interview until you received the letter?

I was interviewed around Aug 10 or so. Then after about a week I was tentatively offered a position pending the outcome of my OF-306 and SF-85. I filled those out and faxed them to the PTO the next day. I waited another week for an answer which I got by e-mail. I got packet of stuff to fill out a few days later with the official letter saying I definitely got the job. This letter ALSO says the offer is contigent upon successful review of my OF-306 and SF-85. So all in all, about 2.5 weeks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by J Smith on Sep 7^th, 2006, 12:08pm

thanks 007 (cool name!)How long does it take to get our first paycheck? Also, I'm having trouble finding a decent place to live. I've been living in my parents guest house, which means I don't have a rental history to speak of, and have not had a big paycheck for Alexandria standards the past couple of years. Do you know anywhere that is in a safe location that accepts people based on what they will be making at the PTO? I'm from way out of state so I can only check things out online so any suggestions are very much appreciated. :)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by bond007 on Sep 7^th, 2006, 12:44pm

hey J smith, i know a friend of mine in my lab, he might be able to get you a room. rent will be around 750+utilities which i think is decent. Its a 3 bedroom condo. you will get 2 bedroom. u can email me: manusawhney21@yahoo.com with ur contact and i will forward it to them.

you get paycheck every 2 weeks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by bond007 on Sep 7^th, 2006, 12:45pm

sorry, i meant 1 bedroom

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by clueness on Sep 7^th, 2006, 1:59pm

How is the training so far? Anybody has difficulties on the first case? How is the in class training? Are they powerpoint lectures? or you have to write notes? I hope they don't put me to Zzzzzzzzz.. LOL... :-/ Is it a lot of pressure? do they give out tests ?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by bond007 on Sep 7^th, 2006, 2:11pm

Training is pretty good and slow, they make sure you understand the concepts. We have lecture hall lectures where the entire class of 80 people sit and listen. Then we have individual labs lectures/discussion. There are quizzes which are pretty easy if you understand the basics. here are powerpoint handouts given for each lecture, some topics are a lil boring, but overall its all good.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by clueness on Sep 7^th, 2006, 3:26pm

I am going to start on Sept 18, 2006. How is the USPTo working environment? do you have individual Cubical or room? I am still searching the apartments near USPTO.. thinking Southern towers, since the rent is reasonable and has bus stop in front of the building to USPTO. Anyone has comment on Southern Tower?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by bond007 on Sep 7^th, 2006, 4:23pm

The working envt is pretty good and relaxed. After the 8 months training, most likely you will be paired up with another examiner in a room. For apts, i am living at EDLANDRIA Apts, they are pretty good with excellent apt rating. Southern tower is pretty bad, if you go to apartmentratings.com, you can see its like 40% rating. Edlandria is 81%. Its 5 miles from USPTO, close to metro as well. If you need further help, email me: manusawhney21@yahoo.com , maybe i can try to find you a room with someone.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Attorney At USPTO on Sep 8^th, 2006, 12:19am

Hi,
I am seeking some guidance regarding future career prospects of a patent attorney with PTO experience.
I have substantial scientific background in Organic/Biochem area. I recently graduated from a lawschool with ranking in the 50-60. I have already passed the patent bar and I am reasonably confident that I will pass the NJ bar. Currently, I am looking for a position and I have an offer from the PTO to start as an examiner. If I take the position at PTO I will have to leave in no more than four years. My questions are;
1. Would the PTO experience help or hurt in 3-4 years?
2. Would it preclude me from getting a litigation position?
3. What are large and mid-size firms' view of PTO expereince?
4. Will I be able to start at a second year or third year level at a firm with the PTO experience?

Thanks for your input.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Jack on Sep 8^th, 2006, 3:55am

Hi- how common (or not) is it for pure academic researchers to find work at the uspto? Is industry experience a must? Is a PhD considered an advantage? Is research at a govt lab considered an advantage?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Sep 8^th, 2006, 9:30am

Jack, it totally depends on your field of study. I believe that most of the life sciences examiners are PHDs with primarily academic research experience. On the other hand, the computer/electrical engineers have a good number of BS graduates.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Jack on Sep 8^th, 2006, 10:16am

Thanks for the reply. Do you happen to know about Materials Science/Applied Physics? I'm a specialist in MatSci with considerable experience in nanotechnology and biomedical materials. Overlap w/chem engin.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Sep 8^th, 2006, 9:37pm

question.

do you get health insurance as soon as you start work?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mikey on Sep 9^th, 2006, 7:20am

on 09/08/06 at 21:37:45, guest wrote:

question.

do you get health insurance as soon as you start work?

You can buy it, but you don't just get it. PTO pays for part (probably 2/3), you pay for part.

The insurance companies trip all over each other during the open season fairs trying to get this business. Writing policies with little or no dental or vision to all the new young kids is $$ in the bank. I usually make a walk-thru to see if they are giving away any free crap that i like.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Sep 9^th, 2006, 9:29pm

Just out of curiosity... Is there a standard amount of time before an examiner becomes eligible to apply for a supervisory position? How competitive is the selection process for these positions?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by tedward on Sep 12^th, 2006, 12:59pm

hi - i went to the job fair at the uspto in june, had an informal interview and submitted my application via jars a week afterward. I haven't heard anything since. Is this normal or should I give up on the uspto?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Sep 12^th, 2006, 4:10pm

on 09/12/06 at 12:59:09, tedward wrote:

are you EE?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest2 on Sep 12^th, 2006, 4:29pm

I'm a comp. Eng. and had two interviews. One in a jab fair and one over the phone. I received an email requesting forms SF-85 and OF-306 to be filled out. What step is this in the hiring process?? When do they tell you if u got the job or not.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Sep 12^th, 2006, 9:52pm

current examiners: do you find that most examiners drive to work or do they take the metro?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Tedward on Sep 13^th, 2006, 12:46am

on 09/12/06 at 16:10:10, guest wrote:

are you EE?

Nope. Chem engineering.

Title: hiring contacts?
Post by Jack on Sep 13^th, 2006, 8:23am

Who are the best people to contact regarding a JARS application? Talking to human resources, w/all due, seems like shouting into the abyss. Are the "hiring contacts" for the tech centers (listed on the USPTO website) a good bet?

Also, anybody know if they're hiring materials scientists these days?

Thanks.

Jack

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Sep 13^th, 2006, 8:15pm

on 09/12/06 at 21:52:09, guest wrote:

current examiners: do you find that most examiners drive to work or do they take the metro?

Parking costs 100 bucks per month, and you have to pay for gas, wear and tear on your car, etc. The metro is free (The PTO pays for your metro and buses over 100 bucks per month). If you can take the metro, you should do it.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by examiner on Sep 13^th, 2006, 9:33pm

on 09/09/06 at 21:29:04, guest wrote:

Just out of curiosity... Is there a standard amount of time before an examiner becomes eligible to apply for a supervisory position? How competitive is the selection process for these positions?

It depends on the art unit.

For my art unit, they can't even get anyone that wants the position. They need to ship in other people from other units, or double up SPEs to multiple art units. The turnover is so great that there is only a couple of people that are high enough to be one.

There are some art units with a well established SPE. In that case, you may never get to be a SPE.

As far as I know, you only need to be a GS-14, so however long that would take you is the fastest you can do it.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by JakeMondatta on Sep 14^th, 2006, 6:33am

Why is turnover so high? Is it because examiners keep leaving for good jobs with law firms or is it because morale is low?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Sep 14^th, 2006, 6:53am

I don't think either of those tells the full story.

A significant amount of the turnover is from people who leave during their first year or so because they find out they don't like the job, that they cannot do the job at the required production rate, or that the relentless quest for production is too stressful.

There are those more senior examiners who take a promotion which includes a production goal that they cannot meet.

I wouldn't call any of those things morale problems per se, but I wouldn't expect the mood of people with those issues to be particularly cheerful.

But at the firm I work at there are several ex-examiners who left simply because they found better paying gigs.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by JakeMondatta on Sep 14^th, 2006, 8:03am

Interesting. What are the hours like for a first-year examiner? Are they comparable to a first year associate at a DC law firm?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Sep 14^th, 2006, 9:03am

Generally speaking the hours for a 1st year examiner are not an issue. Examiners at G-7 and below are not allowed to work unpaid overtime and are expected to do whatever production is required in 40 hours a week.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by JakeMondatta on Sep 14^th, 2006, 9:15am

Are the production quotas such that only the superhuman can do the job and attend law school part time... or is this reasonable for someone who is very interested in doing it?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by JakeMondatta on Sep 14^th, 2006, 9:17am

Thanks for taking the time to answer my q's, by the way. Your answers are thoughtful and helpful.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by biopico on Sep 14^th, 2006, 12:09pm

Even if it is stressful in trying to meet a production rate in USPTO, I am wondering whether it could ever be compared to what people with PhDs are suffering in Biomedical Sciences excluding myself though. In fact, it is cruel.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by chazinla on Sep 14^th, 2006, 12:29pm

I have heard that that job market is pretty terrible for biologists. It’s not great for research scientists in general either. I work for a large national lab doing applied physics research. Here it’s common for people to be post-docs for 5-7 yrs before they get permanent positions. You meet a lot of disgruntled and embittered 35 year olds and everybody seems to be pretty worried about the future. Bear in mind that these are all people who graduated with PhDs from the top 10 institutions in physics and have decades worth of well-regarded publications. A typical work week here is 6 days long, most people arrive from 9:30-10am and stay until at least 9pm at night. It’s definitely a grind.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mikey on Sep 14^th, 2006, 7:08pm

on 09/14/06 at 09:03:41, Isaac wrote:

Rigghhht ... and i have some swampland in Florida for sale and i'm sure you'll be interested!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mikey on Sep 14^th, 2006, 7:42pm

on 09/14/06 at 06:53:26, Isaac wrote:

But the truth of that fact (and i'm not denying it) should not mask the fact that a significant percentage of people who are past their first year are also leaving. The official figures bear out this statement. I see it happening all around me, and i have some opinions about that which i will not share here.

Its just that you have 1000 new hires a year into a pool of just over 4000 examiners which makes what you are saying true.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Sep 15^th, 2006, 7:11am

on 09/13/06 at 21:33:42, examiner wrote:

Which art units have trouble getting people in? Can't I just become an expert in the field of the Art unit I'm in and become a GS-15? I have already started studying for various certifications.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by chip on Sep 15^th, 2006, 8:26am

how long do you have to work for the uspto as an examiner before they're willing to pay for law school?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Sep 15^th, 2006, 8:34am

on 09/15/06 at 08:26:35, chip wrote:

how long do you have to work for the uspto as an examiner before they're willing to pay for law school?

You have to work there for two years before going to law school. That is also the new probationary period.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by chip on Sep 15^th, 2006, 8:49am

is it difficult to get the uspto to pay for law school? what fraction of examiners end up doing that?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Alexander Knight on Sep 18^th, 2006, 8:28am

Just out of curiosity, is the written examination for advancement to GS-13 waived if you were previously registered as an agent/attorney?

Thank you for your time.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mikey on Sep 18^th, 2006, 2:43pm

on 09/18/06 at 08:28:42, Alexander Knight wrote:

Just out of curiosity, is the written examination for advancement to GS-13 waived if you were previously registered as an agent/attorney?

Thank you for your time.

Yes.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by examiner on Sep 18^th, 2006, 8:20pm

on 09/15/06 at 07:11:15, guest wrote:

Which art units have trouble getting people in? Can't I just become an expert in the field of the Art unit I'm in and become a GS-15? I have already started studying for various certifications.

You can do that, but you won't be a SPE. A SPE is a supervisor. They don't examine. They supervise.

Being a SPE is not about a pay increase. It's about a different set of responsibilities.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by codario on Sep 19^th, 2006, 8:10am

I was just told by HR that my JARS application was approved on Sept 1st... what's the next step after HR approval? Will I be notified if I am not selected? How long does this process take?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by bond007 on Sep 19^th, 2006, 11:52am

hi, usually it takes 1-2 months time to go thru the interview and acceptance process. There are many forms you have to fill before they let you know when u can start plus more forms the 1st day of orientation. Now, there is a class that started on sept 18, a new one starting on sept 25. But i guess if you haven't heard anything yet, then the next class is in november. I guess you should be getting a call for the phone interview soon. Usually HR takes quite a time to get back, usually a month after the application is approved. Overall its a 2 months process before everything is ok'd. Just email them if you don't hear before oct. 1. if you need any other help, lemme know.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Marie U. on Sep 20^th, 2006, 2:06pm

For me the interview process was pretty easy. I have a BSEE, had experience in Telephony and therefore "breeze-ly" enter the PTO. I lasted two years...left in great standing; but the job burned me really bad. I ended up divorcing and all. It is a job that demands a lot from you. Every bi-week you have to turn in your counts. Every quarter above 95% of prod (actually, it should be more than a 100%) or you're in for a bad ride with management.
Ironically, I'm thinking about going back. There's the hoteling going on now and it looks tempting to go back to Examining Hell. Pay's good. Benefits too.

Two points before I believe:
1) An SPE can make you or break you in PTO.
2) If you're starting; don't get greedy and look for a higher GS. It means more production.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Sep 20^th, 2006, 5:22pm

on 09/20/06 at 14:06:16, Marie U. wrote:

You're not alone, the burnout is high and you end up going out on the engineering marketplace without any relevant experience and behind the curve in relation to those who graduated when you did and have been working. Recovering from that can be hard.

You could stay in the patent law field as an agent, but its the same type of work and the firms will burn you out too, without the same opportunity for promotion as the PTO.

Damned if you do... too bad a lot of people who start at the Office are so young they don't have a complete understanding of these things. They recruit heavily on college campuses.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by dave_lypiz on Sep 22^nd, 2006, 9:12am

A couple of previous posts make working as an examiner sound pretty grim. Is that the consensus? What kind of person really enjoys the job and what kind of person doesn't? does the job satisfaction of an examiner come mainly in the form of pay and benefits, or do you love the job itself? If it's the latter, what is it about the job that you love?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Sep 22^nd, 2006, 3:00pm

on 09/22/06 at 09:12:52, dave_lypiz wrote:

A couple of previous posts make working as an examiner sound pretty grim. Is that the consensus?

Not a consensus. I shared an office with an examiner I knew quite well before we got jobs as an examiner. My friend really enjoys examining. He is also very successful and very productive. If you are good at the job and are trusted by your manager, you will find lots of things to like.

I don't know a good predictor for who can be a good examiner. If you are not good, or on a track to becoming good you won't enjoy the job at all.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Sep 23^rd, 2006, 7:39am

Concensus means majority, so i would have to disagree with Isaac and say that it is a concensus. Pointing to one examiner as an example is hardly convincing! Yes, many people like the job, but not a majority.

Personally i don't particularly like or dislike the job. Its a job and it suffices for now. But i'm trying to give an open and honest opinion of what i see around me every day. People who come to the Office should have a more realistic understanding of what they are getting into than i've seen on this board.

I would amend Isaacs remark to read:

If you are good at the job and are trusted by your manager, you have a much better chance of finding lots of things to like.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest33 on Sep 23^rd, 2006, 5:41pm

It's not a dream job for most. But then again, if you're in the right field, you can get it with a 2.5 GPA and no experience. Chances are the people who are coming in similar to that don't yearn to work in industry, which from experience can be just as stressful as high-grade examining anyway.

If you take the job, take it with the expectation you'll be making GS-7 for a while, and anything after that is a plus. As was said before, don't be in a hurry to get promotions every year or you might just be digging yourself deeper into a hole.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Sep 24^th, 2006, 10:40am

on 09/23/06 at 17:41:09, guest33 wrote:

so when you recieve promotion offers, how do you know that you are going to be ready to perform at the next grade?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Sep 24^th, 2006, 11:45am

You know exactly what will be required at the next level.

You also know whether you make production at the current level by working a regular week with only occasional overtime or whether you are barely making 100 percent production while working 100+ hours every bi-week.

I have had examiners tell me that they have turned down promotions because they cannot comfortably make the next production level. Not every examiner has a family situation allowing them to work overtime.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Sep 24^th, 2006, 12:02pm

on 09/24/06 at 11:45:05, Isaac wrote:

i dont understand, you can work voluntary overtime to just meet 100 percent production?

i was under the impression that if you work extra hours (overtime) then your expected production goes up accordingly.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Sep 24^th, 2006, 12:05pm

actually what im asking is... are you saying that you can work 100+ hours week to meet 100 percent production, but you just don't get paid for the extra overtime?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guestxx on Sep 24^th, 2006, 2:44pm

In order to qualify for a promotion, for the 13 bi-weeks prior you have to have performed 1/2 way between the production at your current grade and the production required for the next grade, which is typically around 107%.

And he said 100+ hours a bi-week, not a week. You have be above 95% production or you are on the road out of the office. If you have to work unpaid overtime to get to 95%, then you do it if you don't want to get on that road. You do get warnings and have a chance to improve if you fall below 95%, but it stays on your permanent record regardless (note: below 100% doesn't look good, although 95% is the minimum to avoid disciplinary action). If you claim OT when you are below 95% you simply aren't too bright or don't want to work here long.

Its pretty basic. If you don't understand i don't know what to say...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Sep 24^th, 2006, 3:53pm

on 09/24/06 at 14:44:35, guestxx wrote:

gotcha, i was just wondering if you could work unpaid overtime cuz i had thought otherwise.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Sep 24^th, 2006, 5:09pm

Yea, I thought lower GS levels were not allowed to work unpaid overtime?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anon on Sep 24^th, 2006, 5:28pm

on 09/24/06 at 17:09:44, daven wrote:

Yea, I thought lower GS levels were not allowed to work unpaid overtime?

I used to work in the Biotech TC, where pretty much everyone is GS-11 or above. So I don't recall the specifics.

But if I'm not mistaken, you are correct: Those at GS-7 and below are not supposed to work unpaid overtime.

Even so, I'll bet that many of them work unpaid overtime when in a pinch. But really, the production at GS-7 isn't so bad. So I doubt that many at that level find the need to work unpaid overtime very often.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by PTO Examiner on Sep 24^th, 2006, 10:36pm

Does anyone know what production level new hires need to get to at the end of the six month period. How is that determined? Is it for the last bi-week? What if you have a low average for the first six months (50%) and you did well in the last bi-week?
What level of production at the end of the six month period is considered necessary to keep your position?
Thanks for your reply

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by chipstan on Sep 25^th, 2006, 8:50am

Does the USPTO hire PhD's in engineering?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Sep 25^th, 2006, 9:55am

on 09/24/06 at 22:36:02, PTO Examiner wrote:

I'm not sure there is a single answer to this question. Your SPE may make a retention decision as late as your 10th or 11th month, but may make it earlier if he can see that you aren't going to be able to produce. Your SPE has some discretion.

What's typically expected as a minimum is that your production will start slow and show a ramping up to 100% before the end of your probationary period.

Things may be completely different for those involved in the 8 months in the patent academy with the associated two year probationary period. I have no idea how that works.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Clueless on Sep 26^th, 2006, 10:44am

will the quiz scores hurt your evalution in the training academy?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Sep 26^th, 2006, 3:48pm

For all the people asking about what is required in training for production, quizzes, or whatever else, i have a really novel concept: why don't you ask your boss, teacher or whoever else in charge of you and/or your training. I'm quite certain they would be happy to answer all of your questions.

Does that not make more logical sense, to ask the person who has the answer than asking vague questions to a bunch of strangers?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest2 on Sep 26^th, 2006, 6:38pm

Regarding the quizzes: are you failing a bunch of them? Since they are directed to the material that you have lectures on and it's also material that builds your foundation of knowledge at the pto, it should reflect on your evaluation.

And to (somewhat) build on the last poster's response, what difference does it make once you know the answer to your question? Are you going to "try harder?" If you're not giving 100% on those quizzes right now, there's something else wrong here.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by chitosan on Oct 2^nd, 2006, 11:21am

what can i expect for a starting salary as a person with a phd and one post-doc under my belt?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by chitosan on Oct 2^nd, 2006, 11:50am

Also: do you get your full starting salary even during the 8-month training period?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by bond007 on Oct 2^nd, 2006, 12:19pm

Hi, with a PHD, u can expect to start around GS9 level, maybe GS 11 level as well, depends on HR and ur experience...although usually they bring on GS11 only when people have law degrees. Also, GS11 is not recommended for someone new, because that means you have higher production goal to meet which can be really stressful for a new examiner.

For the 8 month training, yes, you do get paid full time and the 1st 2 months are real easy going. then you start just a little bit to start working on applications, just to get your feet wet kinda! lemme know if you have any more questions.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by bond007 on Oct 2^nd, 2006, 12:21pm

Also, here is a link for different GS levels on USPTO website.
http://usptocareers.gov/salaryrates.asp

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by chitosan on Oct 2^nd, 2006, 2:32pm

thanks for the info! what's the typical promotion rate? is it unusual to get promoted a full grade in a year? how often does a well-performing examiner get promoted? I ask because they say the promotion rate is faster than it is for other govt agencies, but i'm wondering how much faster.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by pka on Oct 3^rd, 2006, 1:21pm

how much freedom do you have to change art units once you're hired?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by jr on Oct 3^rd, 2006, 1:38pm

If you're contacted by an art unit you're not wild about (but that's in a technology center you'd like to work for) do you have any options? Are you hired to work in a specific art unit, or can you move around?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by chemvictim on Oct 3^rd, 2006, 10:06pm

I'm flying out to Alexandria this week to interview for TC 1610/1620. Any advice for the interview would be extremely helpful. I'm actually a little confused because it seems most people just get hired over the phone. I will really hate it if I fly out there for an hour long interview and then not get an offer. :(

Also, regarding salary, you say a Ph.D. usually comes in at GS-9, but there's a lot of variation, with all the steps and whatnot. Do they automatically start you at step 1?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Oct 4^th, 2006, 6:06pm

If you have a PhD, you will start at GS-11 step 1 (around $60K). UNLESS you are leaving a job that pays more than that, or if you have another job offer for a higher amount, then they will match it up to a maximum starting salary of about $75K.

A post-doc will not increase your starting offer.

Good luck!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Oct 5^th, 2006, 1:54am

How hard is it as a new examiner to make your production quota if you are starting out as a GS-9?

Is there any difference in production quotas between different steps at the same grade level, e.g. will a GS-9/3 have the same production quota as a GS-9/7?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by career trajectory on Oct 5^th, 2006, 9:39am

do most examiners spend their entire careers w/in the USPTO? If they leave, where do they usually go? What's the fraction that obtains a law degree?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by advice needed on Oct 5^th, 2006, 8:53pm

i've just received an offer from the uspto to start next month. I'm happy with everything, but am not terrifically wild about the art unit. The technology center is appropriate... and I can certainly perform in the art center... but I would prefer a different specialization.

How important is the art unit? Does an examiner have to stay within his/her art unit for a specfied period... or is there some flexibilty?

Thanks.

James

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by advice needed on Oct 5^th, 2006, 9:05pm

what i'm really asking is - should i hold out for the art unit i'm most interested in... or is there flexibility?

i'm talking about two sub-fields i'm qualified for (i'm a chemical engineer who would rather work in bio-sensor technologies but has been offered a position in plastics manufacturing)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Oct 5^th, 2006, 9:11pm

You'd better ask before you start, because you're going to have little or no flexability as a junior. I was offered some choice of different areas but i have degrees across a couple of fields and experience that fits as well and went into one of their exploding areas. Not sure about the chemical group and how many they hire from their applicants, but another offer might not be forthcoming if you turn this position down. Ask the hiring contact.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by advice needed on Oct 6^th, 2006, 6:47am

Thanks very much for your frank answer. What are the exploding areas?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by advice needed on Oct 6^th, 2006, 6:53am

Do you have flexibility down the road? It would be fine for me if I could work for this art unit for 2-3 yrs then apply my skills somewhere else. I have varying expertise (bs in physics, ms in biochemistry, phd in chem engin) and have the contextual expertise to do so.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Oct 6^th, 2006, 7:46am

on 10/06/06 at 06:53:53, advice needed wrote:

Switching art areas is a painful exercise. One of the reasons your efficiency increases over time is the familiarity with the art achieved from searching the same categories countless times. Moving to another art unit would mean starting over, but during your restart you would have high productivity expectations after 2-3 years of promotions.

I'm aware of junior examiners who have switched art units because they were struggling with the technology, and of more senior examiners who switched to fill a need at the PTO for more examiners in a given area or because of some conflict in their old unit.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Oct 6^th, 2006, 7:54am

You could definitely have some flexability with those degrees, but 2-3 years might be premature although for a different reason than you might think. You'll probably come at gs9 at the lowest, and after 2-3 years you'll be looking at going onto the program (to become a primary examiner) and you won't want to switch arts in the middle of the program or just before. You are scrutinized heavily on the program. Takes about 2 years to complete. After that you will have the flexability you desire.

Just my opinion. I'm getting close to going on the program and wouldn't want to change now. Hope that helps.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Oct 6^th, 2006, 8:03am

Let me amend my last post from "you will have the flexability you desire" to "you will have a better chance of having the flexability you desire". Don't want you to think you will guaranteed be able to change after than.

And Isaacs comment about juniors changing because they struggled with the art is true, but it was usually their first step out the door. I've seen it, but won't go into it further.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by need advice on Oct 6^th, 2006, 8:21am

ouch. Okay, thanks again. Sounds like I should hold out for the right art unit. Is it a good idea to discuss this with the hiring contact from the technology center? Although I've only been contacted by one art unit, maybe there are openings in others that suit my interests a bit more.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by need advice on Oct 6^th, 2006, 8:22am

Is it a good idea to discuss this with the hiring contact from the technology center? Although I've only been contacted by one art unit, maybe there are openings in others that suit my interests a bit more.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Oct 6^th, 2006, 10:54am

I think its going to depend upon who you are talking to. I know some SPEs who doing hiring for certain areas, but i'm not sure how far their reach really is. You might be talking to someone who is hiring for a certain workgroup (a small set of art units in working on the same thing) then that person might not be able to do more than pass your resume on to other SPEs in their TC.

Its almost like a bird-in-the-hand kind of thing. You don't want to say that you don't want to work in a certain art unit because it might be the only available spot for you. I would tend to think not, but i don't know. Sorry i can't be of more help.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by need advice on Oct 10^th, 2006, 11:15am

thanks again - this advice is really helpful

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by salary on Oct 10^th, 2006, 11:18am

i'm starting at the uspto soon at $60k/yr. I've been told by many that there is a chance I could make up to 6 figures after 3 yrs. How realistic is that? What does it depend on?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by stuff on Oct 10^th, 2006, 5:48pm

How rare is it for an examiner to go to law school?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Oct 10^th, 2006, 7:46pm

How rare is it for an examiner to go to law school?

I don't think it's really that rare. I'm a law school grad and have recently started as an examiner at the PTO. From what I've heard so far from the people I've talked to is that many examiners join the PTO specifically for them to pay for law school and then leave the PTO for the private sector after they are done. The thing you have to remember is that you have to have been at the PTO for 2 full years (I think) before they will pay for you to go to law school. You also will owe them a certain amount of time for every credit hour of law school that they pay for once you graduate. Finally, it's not guaranteed that this program will be funded in the future, although for now it is.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by stuff on Oct 10^th, 2006, 8:08pm

Is there any reasont to suspect that the law school reimbursement program is not going to continue? How long has it been around?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Oct 10^th, 2006, 8:59pm

on 10/10/06 at 11:18:33, salary wrote:

i'm starting at the uspto soon at $60k/yr. I've been told by many that there is a chance I could make up to 6 figures after 3 yrs. How realistic is that? What does it depend on?

You will NOT make 6 figures after 3 years unless you are willing to work max OT. Given that you will likely have to work unpaid OT pretty often, i'm not sure it is possible. Basically you would be living at the PTO.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by salary on Oct 10^th, 2006, 9:05pm

What's a realistic salary after 3 yrs? I mean, with some but not max OT?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Oct 10^th, 2006, 10:10pm

Some but not max OT? Don't know what that means exactly.

Based on the vague info you gave i would say about $75K in todays dollars. You might make 6 figures in 6 years at best, assuming you made every promotion and passed both parts of the program the first time. But remember that there is a 50% turnover every five years (source: latest popa newsletter - see popa(dot)org), so flip a coin to see if you will still be working there. Very high burnout for a good reason. To be polite, its not really a desirable job.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Oct 10^th, 2006, 10:14pm

on 10/10/06 at 20:08:49, stuff wrote:

Is there any reasont to suspect that the law school reimbursement program is not going to continue? How long has it been around?

The tuition reimbursement program has been discontinued at least once before and has been restarted relatively recently (within the last few years).

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by salary on Oct 10^th, 2006, 10:19pm

Would it make any difference if I had a PhD? (I do) Frankly, $75k after 3 years isn't very good. I could get that working in industry w/out a problem right now. What's the incentive to go to the PTO?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by stuff on Oct 10^th, 2006, 10:23pm

Is it best not to ask about law school reimbursement until you've been there for 2 yrs? Is it ok to mention it before you accept an offer? Can you make your acceptance contingent on the reimbursement?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Oct 10^th, 2006, 10:31pm

on 10/10/06 at 22:23:43, stuff wrote:

I'm sure they will brag up the law school program until they are blue in the face to get you thru the door. Ask all you want.

Make your acceptance contingent on the reimbursement? Hahahahhahahahahahaha ... sorry, just my first reaction. No, you can't.

To the PhD guy - you should be sure you want to do patent law as a career if you come here. With a PhD you should look at all your other options very closely. Just my opinion.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by stuff on Oct 10^th, 2006, 10:35pm

is it your opinion that there's a reasonable chance they'd do away with the tuition reimbursement program again? is this a total crap shoot (tuition reimbursement) or is it somewhat reliable?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Oct 10^th, 2006, 10:37pm

And i should add that living in DC is expensive. At $60K you will have roommates, and if you have school debt things will be tight. At $75K you might be able to live on your own again. At $100K you can think about financing a place, but not inside of the beltway.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by salary on Oct 10^th, 2006, 10:41pm

I'm very interested in IP and ultimately in becoming a patent attorney. I was thinking (unoriginally) that the USPTO was a great way to earn valuable experience, a competitive salary and law school tuition reimbursement all at the same time. If that's true it's great. What I'm hearing here is that it's not as good as it seems. Is that right?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Oct 10^th, 2006, 10:41pm

on 10/10/06 at 22:35:55, stuff wrote:

is it your opinion that there's a reasonable chance they'd do away with the tuition reimbursement program again? is this a total crap shoot (tuition reimbursement) or is it somewhat reliable?

Just be aware that its in no way guaranteed. They will tell you all kinds of things, but take it with a grain os salt. Also, it doesn't mean a free ride. You have to pay taxes on the money you get for law school, so figure on paying 30% of your tuition (my estimate, but you get the idea).

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Oct 10^th, 2006, 10:44pm

on 10/10/06 at 22:41:01, salary wrote:

You'll have to make up your own mind on that. I'm just trying to give you the most honest answers i can to your questions. I wish you luck.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by salary on Oct 10^th, 2006, 10:46pm

Okay, fair enough. What does the 6 month accelerated promotion thing really mean? Is that about stepping up a GS level?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Oct 10^th, 2006, 10:51pm

Yes, the accelerated promotion will step you up a gs level minus a few steps. Its the way promotions work at first - it was detailed earlier in this forum.

You might not be looking forward to the added production that results though ... i don't think i took it until 10-11 months. The production can become insane at higher levels. Promotions are a blessing and a curse ... ;)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by salary on Oct 10^th, 2006, 10:57pm

thanks a lot for answering these q's. it's a huge help to me.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by salary on Oct 10^th, 2006, 10:58pm

What’s the non-accelerated promotion rate? Is that like a few steps a year?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Oct 10^th, 2006, 11:30pm

Accelerated just means you get a normal promotion early. Nothing special beyond that.

Good luck with everything. Past my bedtime and much work to do tomorrow - first bi-week of the fiscal year and i'm already behind!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by salary on Oct 11^th, 2006, 7:24am

Good luck to you too! Thanks again.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by stuff on Oct 11^th, 2006, 8:08am

What happened to people taking advantage of the tuition reimbursement program when they cut it? Were they grandfathered in until the end of law school, or were they just out of luck?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Oct 11^th, 2006, 8:37am

on 10/11/06 at 08:08:57, stuff wrote:

What happened to people taking advantage of the tuition reimbursement program when they cut it? Were they grandfathered in until the end of law school, or were they just out of luck?

Examiners were definitely not grandfathered in until the end of law school. The program was continued for the fall 2002 semester during which termination of the program was announced leaving examiners to come up with spring 2003 semester tuition.

In the interest of full disclosure, I was not working at the PTO at the time and already possessed a law degree during my time of employment at the PTO. This is not an issue that personally affected me.

My take on things is that the law school program is a retention/recruitment benefit that might in some cases actually lead to examiners qualifying for higher paying jobs and leaving. When the economy is down and recruitment is less of a concern, the PTO may not see much wisdom in paying examiners to go to law school.

You can read POPAs take on things in their Nov. 2002 newsletter.

http://www.popa.org/pdf/newsletters/2002_11.pdf

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by stuff on Oct 11^th, 2006, 11:01am

Recruitment's a pretty big concern these days, right? I mean, the PTO is supposed to hire 1000 people in the next couple of years or something. Where does that number come from? Why do they need to hire so many?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Jonathan on Oct 11^th, 2006, 11:34am

They are on a hiring binge due to record-level backlogs of unexamined patent applications and the backlogs have been increasing year after year.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by stuff on Oct 11^th, 2006, 11:39am

If they're hiring so many and choosing to keep their law school tuition program, doesn't that imply that they'll have to be more selective about the program's participants?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Oct 11^th, 2006, 11:44am

on 10/11/06 at 11:01:02, stuff wrote:

My understanding is that the want to hire 1000 examiners every year for the next five years. The PTO simply has too much work for the examiners they are able to retain to complete in a timely and complete manner. The PTO is seeking to hire more examiners and is also pursuing a number of initiatives to reduce the per case effort required of examiners.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by stuff on Oct 11^th, 2006, 11:48am

Is the reason for the backlog a deficiency in the number of examiners, a proliferation in garbarge patents... or both?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by positive on Oct 11^th, 2006, 1:14pm

Is the uspto a positive work environment?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by stuff on Oct 11^th, 2006, 1:40pm

If you're hired in nov 06 as an examiner, can you start law school w/out reimbursement in sept 08 or do you have to wait until sept 09 even if you're willing to pay?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Oct 11^th, 2006, 2:01pm

If you are willing to pay and you can handle school and your workload, there aren't any rules preventing you from going to class outside of working hours.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by teamwork on Oct 12^th, 2006, 10:00am

Do examiners work in teams or is the work dolled out individually?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by biopico on Oct 12^th, 2006, 10:42am

Any info is appreciated regarding law schools (evening/ABA approved) available around USPTO or 25 miles of distance from USPTO?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Oct 12^th, 2006, 11:20am

Don't know the exact distances from the PTO, but these schools all have evening programs.

Catholic University
University of Maryland
George Mason
George Washington
Georgetown

Link to a list of all evening programs

http://www.vault.com/graddegree/school/school_main.jsp?ch_id=351&list=All&co_page=4&tlist=23

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Oct 12^th, 2006, 10:54pm

Missing from the list is American U out past their main campus on Massachusetts Ave. I know people in their part-time program.

How could they miss that on Vault? Tisk, tisk...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Oct 13^th, 2006, 7:33am

Actually, I was able to determine that the Vault list was missing a few more evening programs that are outside the DC metro area. I'm not sure what's going on with that list. I won't use it to answer questions anymore.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Oct 13^th, 2006, 4:22pm

Isaac, i use the LSAC(dot)org website, on the left side under "Official Guide to ABA-Approved Law Schools", then click all law schools under the "Search Law Schools" tab, then sort by "Admission" (link near the top). If you look under the part-time section it will show admissions stats for all the schools that have part time programs, which can be useful. I've noticed that some of the numbers seem stale compared with the numbers on the school website, but otherwise a pretty good resource.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by chazinla on Oct 16^th, 2006, 8:39am

How do you get into the tuition reimbursement program at the USPTO? Is it necessary to apply?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Oct 16^th, 2006, 8:56pm

Yes, you have to apply.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by chazinla on Oct 17^th, 2006, 8:01am

Is the acceptance rate lower than 50 %? Is it higher than 75%?

Thanks again for your help.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Oct 17^th, 2006, 4:49pm

on 10/17/06 at 08:01:56, chazinla wrote:

Is the acceptance rate lower than 50 %? Is it higher than 75%?

Thanks again for your help.

Call and ask the PTO.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Oct 17^th, 2006, 5:01pm

on 10/17/06 at 08:01:56, chazinla wrote:

Is the acceptance rate lower than 50 %? Is it higher than 75%?

Thanks again for your help.

You are way ahead of yourself. You first have to work at the PTO successfully for two years and you have to get accepted into law school. Do that first and you'll probably have no problem getting into the tuition reimbursement program.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by offer on Oct 18^th, 2006, 1:30am

I just got an offer from the USPTO. I'm not very impressed with the salary ($60k), but I've heard that income growth potential is high. What's realistic? Would I be making $80k after 2 yrs?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by bond007 on Oct 18^th, 2006, 12:53pm

hi, not to put you down in any way, its almost impossible to jump from 60k to 80k at USPTO in 2 years.You also have to remember, as u get promoted, your production expectation rises as well. I would realistically, u can make 70k in 2 years. But then the cost of living is outrageous here, especially if you have a family. So make sure you think about it before any commitment. 5-6 years, probably 90-100k is possible provided you do well production wise and keep getting promoted.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by hours on Oct 19^th, 2006, 6:57am

What are normal hours at the USPTO? Is it typical to have to put in unpaid overtime to meet quotas?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by pro on Oct 19^th, 2006, 6:59am

Promotion is competitive right? Does that mean you can count on being promoted quickly if you're above quota? Can you be promoted more often than once a year?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by afterwards on Oct 19^th, 2006, 2:15pm

Where do people end up working after the USPTO? I'm curious about people who don't get law degrees. Is the USPTO experience considered valuable?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Oct 19^th, 2006, 4:03pm

I don't work at the patent office but I do work for the federal government. I'm not yet convinced I want to apply to the patent office. Here's what I *think* I know about the patent office so far..

You can get a special promotion from GS 5 to 7 or 7 to 9 after six months but it depends on your supervisor. I really doubt the patent office is offering that with the new training program, but I really don't know. I was promoted from 7 to 9 after the first six months at my current federal job, but it's pretty much a given for everyone where I work.

After the special promotion, you need to be at a given GS level for a minimum of a year before being eligible for promotion. From what I understand, at the patent office, you need to be at least half way between your current quota and the quota of the next GS level for prompt promotion.

Whenever you're promoted to the next GS level, you move over two steps to the right on the patent office GS scale, find that amount (or slightly higher) on the higher GS level.. and that's your new step. If you're already at step 10 you add two times the difference between steps of that GS level to your current step, then go down, etc. That's the same for all federal GS jobs.

The patent office will usually match what you make now, or match offers you have from other prospective employers. I would rather start with them at a lower GS level with higher step than at the same yearly pay, but at a higher GS level (but lower step). I believe production quotas are the same for any step within the same GS level, so starting lower makes sense.

From what I've read in my research of working for the patent office, you are actually less marketable as an engineer after taking a job at the patent office. In my opinion, the most common career paths are:

1) Stay at the patent office and enjoy the government benefits and work, assuming you enjoy it. It will be easier after you've been there awhile and you will eventually be promoted to $90k+/yr (4-6 yrs?).

2) Work there a few years and use your experience to make ~$75-90k as a patent agent outside the patent office. BTW, I doubt you'll get the same amount of vacation days in private industry. I get 20 days/yr now and it goes to 26 days after 15 yrs of service, which is the same as the patent office.

3) Work at the patent office and go to law school at night. It will take 4 yrs part-time and will most likely be a living hell on your social/family life. Larger private firms start IP lawyers around $135k/yr.

The worst option would be to realize you simply don't enjoy the work in the patent field and decide to go back to engineering. After a few years at the patent office I assume your (on the job) engineering skills will be rusty, assuming you weren't hired straight out of college. I'm sure you could find an engineering job but there would be some explaining to do at the interview.

People that actually work for the patent office can feel free to correct my information.:)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Oct 19^th, 2006, 7:17pm

Daven, that is a fairly accurate summary. The only thing i would correct is the second paragraph about promotions. I was hired at gs9/10 and promoted to a gs11/7 but it took a little longer than 6 months (although not a year). Most people are hired as a 7 and a few at a 5 (low gpa).

Also, you do get the 6-month promotions during the 8 month training.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by int'l on Oct 20^th, 2006, 6:58am

Is going to law school part-time really that much of a nightmare? Is it worth it? Would it be better just to full time and suck up the cost?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by accel promo on Oct 20^th, 2006, 12:54pm

So does the "accelerated promotion" USPTO recruiters talk about really only pertain to the first 6 months?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Oct 20^th, 2006, 4:05pm

How they can give promotions during training when you haven't shown them what you can do? Are there tests and evals by the instructors?

I assume the patent office gives "special" promotions the first year (or so) because they have to follow the same general guidelines as any other federal employer, like mine. I don't believe federal guidelines allow for anything other than the first accelerated promotion. I doubt you would want too many quick promotions anyway.. because the quota might rise faster than you can learn to be more efficient.

I haven't taken a law class. I took engineering classes at night for a few years after getting out of the military. After working all day, you are dead tired and staying in class until 8 or 9 pm a few nights a week will wear you down.

I went full time the last two years and the difference was like night and day! I got to school by 7-7:30am every morning, studied an hour at a time, and didn't leave until 5pm (or after my last class). I never felt overwhelmed and ended up with 3.6 gpa. I went to the library every Saturday morning for a few hours but never studied in the evenings.

I'm not saying going part time is impossible. If you don't have obligations it would be much easier overall to go full time. Heck, the student loans I had to take out the last two years are currently being paid by my employer at a rate of $450/mo.:)

I doubt many students realize it but much of your working income will be used simply for living. You'll buy a nice car and get a nice place.. and the next thing you know you're working just to pay those bills. In my opinion, if you really want to go to law school and your situation allows for it, go full time. Either that, or work hard for 2-3 yrs, save your money (and live cheap), then go full time. Then again, everyone's situation is different.

I would love to work at the patent office but I'm still not convinced I could stand living in northern VA. We stayed at the Marriott at Tysons corner last week to take a look at the area. Traffic is very rough up there!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Oct 20^th, 2006, 10:10pm

I started out as a GS-7 examiner 17 years ago, after being fed up with my dead end job as an engineer in the private industry. I am so glad I made the move. Of course, I may not have the same perspective as some other unlucky examiners who found the job a nightmare, because I really got some great mentoring and training from a great SPE/boss who knew the law as well as some primary examiners who really cared about what they were doing (not just putting a blue slip or passing out crap to get a count).

After becoming a primary, I went to law school at night. Yes, it was really tough for 4 years, and I was always tired from the long days and No. VA commute. But it opened up a lot of doors for me. I spent some time as an attorney on the outside, but decided to return to the PTO after I was offered a position in one of the most prestigious organizations in the agency.

Yes, No. VA's traffic is pretty bad and has high home prices, but I think overall it's a great place to live and raise children. Again, my perspective may be a bit different from others because I moved here from the NYC/NJ metro area, which in my humble opinion, is no place to live and raise children.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Oct 21^st, 2006, 9:12am

Even though the training is 8 months long, it isn't 100% "training." You do get to work on cases (I believe every month has had it differently so far; the September class came in with one or two cases already, if i heard correctly), so the SPEs/trainers do have something with which to evaluate you. That in mind, only about 20% or so actually get promoted right at the 6 month mark. But it isn't a one time deal... you are eligible for the promotion beginning at 6 months. So if you meet the promotion-production quota at 7 months, you'll get it too.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by school on Oct 23^rd, 2006, 8:20am

A few people have told me that going to law school while at the pto isn't worth it - it's better just to go to law school full time. any thoughts?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Oct 23^rd, 2006, 8:41am

on 10/23/06 at 08:20:56, school wrote:

A few people have told me that going to law school while at the pto isn't worth it - it's better just to go to law school full time. any thoughts?

There is no single answer to that question.

Law school can be expensive and many people generate a crushing debt load while going to law school full time. While working and going to school is tiring and life style affecting, trying to pay off six figure school loans is also a life style affecting proposition.

Financial considerations aside, I'd recommend going to law school full time rather than part time plus working full time. But for most of us, the financial considerations are not ignorable.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by school on Oct 23^rd, 2006, 9:25am

Thanks for your input. Is the grind of working PTO+part time law comparable to being a new associate at a firm?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by any regrets? on Oct 25^th, 2006, 10:06am

It's interesting that I've never heard any patent people (att or examin) say they regret their decisions to leave science or engineering. I'm curious to know if everyone who posts here agrees. Do you miss being in the lab?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by K33l on Oct 25^th, 2006, 7:06pm

I miss engineering and hand on. I been there for only 4 months.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by florida on Oct 25^th, 2006, 9:40pm

Alright, how competitive is it to get a job?

I have a BSME from Clemson University, graduated with a 3.23 GPA. I will have a JD in May, FSU college of law will most likely be top tier when I graduate, ranked 53rd right now. I am in the top half of my class, but my first semester is really pulling me down. Outside of the first semester, I would probably be close to top third. I am a registered patent agent, and will hopefully have some prosecution experience soon (I have a job with a small IP firm, but have been doing mostly motion practice up until now.)

Am I per se excluded because of my undergrad GPA, and because I do not have a graduate degree in engineering?Do I have a small chance? Good chance?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by cforest79 on Oct 26^th, 2006, 1:02pm

What is the standard (if any) response time of the USPTO to its applicants? I filled out and sent in all the required information about 2 months ago... One month ago, I received an email from someone there asking if I was still interested in working there, and requesting that I send an updated CV if so. After replying yes and sending my CV, he told me he would forward my info to the appropriate offices. Since then now word whatsoever.

Am I being overanxious? Shoud I have expected to have heard something by now? Are they really looking to fill 1000 positions annually?

Thanks to anyone in the know!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by je on Oct 26^th, 2006, 1:35pm

The whole process of getting hired is kind of a crazy and long one. Here's my tale... I showed up for an on-site interview (jobfair) in June, completed my JARS app by the end of that month and then waited. I kept calling HR and was told that my application was finally approved and sent to hiring contacts by Sept. 1st. I got a call from one of them with an offer about a month later and I start in November.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by je on Oct 26^th, 2006, 1:38pm

For giggles, here's my data although I don't think I'm typcial: PhD in applied materials physics (UPENN), MS in materials engineering (UPENN), BS in physics (UMICH). Grad GPA = 3.75, UGrad GPA = 3.65. 5 yrs of post-doctoral research experience in academia and national labs.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by cforest79 on Oct 26^th, 2006, 2:59pm

I hope that's not typical, as it sounds like you've done quite alot... I am just now finishing my PhD in molec. biol., which it seems is not in super-high demand over there. I am guessing that my app cleared and went to "hiring contacts," as someone did get in touch with me.

Thanks for your story...

I'll be holding my breath ;D

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Oct 26^th, 2006, 8:18pm

I have a start date next month and I was wondering if it was worth it to get a monthly parking permit or to just use the metro/bus?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Oct 27^th, 2006, 10:34am

Is it a disadvantage to come to the PTO with a BS versus a PhD in trying to succeed at the PTO as an examiner.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by je on Oct 27^th, 2006, 11:08am

I don't work there yet, but my understanding is that having a BS is all that is necessary to be an examiner. MS and PhD are overkill, while a JD is good.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Oct 27^th, 2006, 11:55am

on 10/27/06 at 11:08:29, je wrote:

I don't work there yet, but my understanding is that having a BS is all that is necessary to be an examiner. MS and PhD are overkill, while a JD is good.

This is a bit of an overstatement. As a thumbrule I'd suggest that for engineers, BS and MS degrees are generally enough for success while for scientists MS and PhDs are more common. That thumbrule is pretty much the way things work in the public sector as well.

A JD is seen by some hirers as a negative because of the possibility that a JD holder will be difficult to retain.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Oct 31^st, 2006, 10:26am

I got the job offer as GS9/8 and there's 2 year probabtion. my question is
Do I have to have MS or PhD to get job at GS11 (since it's only have 1 year proabation instead of 2 years)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Oct 31^st, 2006, 5:41pm

on 10/31/06 at 10:26:57, Guest wrote:

I got the job offer as GS9/8 and there's 2 year probabtion. my question is
Do I have to have MS or PhD to get job at GS11 (since it's only have 1 year proabation instead of 2 years)

Your statements and questions make no sense. They would not offer you a job at gs9/8. They might offer to match you up to a certain level, but not gs9/8. I know because i went through the matching process.

I know people with MS degrees in their art who were hired as a gs7, and they had a high gpa so that wasn't a limiting factor. I would say that you would have a hard time starting at gs11, even straight out of a PhD program with no experience.

And you thinking of going back to school for a couple years to get an MS, or even longer for a PhD? Just to avoid an extra year of probation and to start at a level you would get to in 6-months with an accelerated promotion anyway?

That post makes no sense whatsoever.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by je on Oct 31^st, 2006, 5:47pm

I just got hired at GS9.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by cu on Oct 31^st, 2006, 6:20pm

Is it possible to get into intellectual property policy after having worked as an examiner? Can you do this at the PTO?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Oct 31^st, 2006, 7:35pm

on 10/31/06 at 17:47:20, je wrote:

I just got hired at GS9.

My point wasn't that you can't get hired as a gs9, it was that you wouldn't get offered a gs9/8. They would match you up to a gs9/10, not gs9/8. Perhaps he was only able to match up to a gs9/8, but his post didn't sound that way at all - he said they offered him that position.

I was hired as a gs9 as well, a gs9/10. Without a relevant masters degree as well - it was the experience that got me to gs9/10, that and a matching offer or paystub.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Nov 1^st, 2006, 3:22pm

Out of curiosity - has anyone had any experience with the student intern program? Is the student intern program a common way of being hired as an examiner at the USPTO?

Further, are student interns assigned actual cases?

I understand that after a certain number of hours (640 comes to mind) the student intern is automatically hired as an examiner following graduation. Perhaps I am off the mark with this…

Thank you in advance of your response.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Nov 3^rd, 2006, 10:39am

I am starte date on Nov 13th and i was just wondering if someone could give insight on what to expect during orientation or the first week and is the schedule M-F 8-5pm for the entire 8 months?

Also is getting the monthly parking pass worth it?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by bond007 on Nov 6^th, 2006, 4:11pm

Hi, during the first 3 months of training, usually the schedule will be 7:30-5pm, which is 9 hr days, and u get every other friday off. This is because you will have lectures as a big group and they schedule those in the mornings and throughout the day. After 2-3 months, you start on production and u have less lectures to attend. After 3 months or so, they will start you on the flexible schedule, where the earliest you can come in is at 6:30am-4pm , or the latest 9:30am-7pm.

For the monthly pass, it depends. If you live near a metro station, its better to take the metro as USPTO provides you almost 100$ in subsidy every month. For parking, you will have to pay $90 a month out of your pocket, plus if you live far away, you wouldn't wanna get stuck in traffic and rather take a metro. I live 10 min away, so i chose to drive, i luv my car and luv to drive:)) any other questions, holla!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Nov 6^th, 2006, 6:40pm

Thanks bond007, I guess the other question about the parking pass, is whether there are problems with the garages going to full capacity. And if so, is there a usual time in the morning i should get there before they are full to capacity.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by GuestV on Nov 6^th, 2006, 9:18pm

From my personal experience (w/west garage), if you come in around...
6:30 - 1st/2nd floor
7:30 - 2nd/3rd floor
8:30 - 4th floor
9:30 - 5th floor+
I think there are 7 floors, but I've never had to go all the way to the top. If you arrive around noon, I imagine you may have to go higher and higher, but then there's always people leaving, too. Driving up to the 5th floor is about 0.4 miles... ... ...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by bond007 on Nov 7^th, 2006, 12:45pm

i agree with GuestV perfectly. Also, in total we have 2 garages, EAST and WEST with 7 floors each. So parking is not a problem.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by chipstan on Nov 8^th, 2006, 8:49pm

If you're interested in intellectual property at the policy level, is the PTO a good place to get started?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by jakl on Nov 8^th, 2006, 8:53pm

is being an examiner considered good experience for anything outside the pto? if so, what kinds of jobs?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by rzamEE06 on Nov 9^th, 2006, 11:49am

Just wanted to chime in. I've done a good deal of reading/soul searching trying to convince myself that becoming a patent agent is the right thing to do. I'm commmitted to moving to the VA/MD area this Spring already. I've got over 15 years of experience as an engineer, graduating in Dec. (BSEE) finally. Want to go on to Masters, not law. The deals they are offering sound too good to be true. What to do, what to do. I'll keep reading (thanks for the posts) but any additonal insight is appreciated.

Thanks,
RZ

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by dead_end on Nov 12^th, 2006, 10:11am

I've heard that an examiner is kind of a dead-end job... that you can't earn enough to live well in the area and that, w/out a law degree, you'll never get anywhere. is this true?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by private on Nov 12^th, 2006, 12:50pm

Here's my two cents after about two months (last of the non-patent academy folks). Going in, I wanted all the numbers on production, but the SPE has enormous influence.

Consider that counts can take anywhere from 10% to 500% of the average time to process. Experienced examiners will find and do the fastest ones first. Some of this is global [factors like lots of complex claims in a relatively new subject], and some of it is what the examiner is familiar with. Every time an examiner leaves, the worst cases get reassigned. The SPE can give them to an advanced person who risks busting production, or to a newbie who will learn valuable lessons, but be challenged to increase production.

Another factor that is skyrocketting in importance is getting time with a primary to talk about your case. Remember hiring a thousand newbies, and so few staying to make primary. The newbies are overloading the primaries, and even if the primaries get other time, they still have deadlines. A lenient/not SPE can ease/derail the learning.

As far as turnover - Lots of people get into the job with wierd expectations. I met two people who expected to telecommute 100% after a month (Wrong!). You have to enjoy reading and writing "patent" which is a wierd dialect of legalese. If you have little verbal ability, or if you get frustrated with non-straightforward writing, go elsewhere.

I always wonder what nationwide turnover is for all first jobs. Young people, grass is greener, etc. I'm older. I got tired of the merger/layoff worries, raises less than cost of living, certifications getting old, jobs with no career path at all, etc. We entry level examiners have dual 21 inch monitors and offices with doors. No travel. Much less schmoozing. These things mean a lot to me.

[personal opinion] I also could not bear to write doomed patent applications for money. Even a touch of that would ruin a job for me. It's like an animal lover becoming a vet only to make money at euthanasia. Anyway, my personal choice is to be on the government side.

So hope that is helpful to someone who is deciding,
Good luck.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Nov 13^th, 2006, 11:44am

Hi bond007,
just to be clear, did you mean that
1. First 3 months will be a lot of lecture from 7:30 to 5:00 and off on every other Friday
2. After 3 months, you start working on real cases + lecture
3. After 8 months, you can work with the SPE to set your schedule ?
also, there's a lot of test and quiz in these training ?
thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by prufrock69 on Nov 14^th, 2006, 6:58am

Potential examiners:

I thought some of you who frequent this thread to decide whether or not to become an examiner might be interested in the perspective of someone who's been at the PTO for a few years. If I read the posts correctly, I believe I had the same, for the lack of a better word, condescending, attitude towards the position: Isn't this a dead-end job? Will I be learning new engineering skills? I'll be doing what??

In my opinion, what anyone who is considering a PTO position should keep in mind is that you are making a significant career move into IP and away from traditional engineering in general. This shouldn't be viewed as a 'transitory' type of job; it should be clear the skills you learn and eventually apply here are limited to the IP field. What scares most is that there seems to be only a few positions in this field and feel like they will limit themselves. I think these feelings are warranted. And in that sense, the job is "dead-end" but only to those that don't have the proper perspective and goals.

I have found the position and the opportunties extremely rewarding. Let's be clear that the job involves much reading, analysis and then writing. Lather, rinse, repeat. The monotomy of this routine is broken by the diversity of subject matter of the patent applications involved. With all this in mind, the job may not sound too appealing so far. Whats the upside? In my view, after a achieving a certain level of competence, the level of control over your life and even your job is unparalleled. Right now:
1. I can work from home once a week. Also eligible for the full-time teleworking program [called hotelling here].
2. I have no set schedule. I can work any amount of hours on any day of the week as long as it adds up to 40 at the end of the week. Think about that.
3. Job security.
4. Promotion opportunities every year and two bonus opportunties every year.
5. Laid back atmosphere. Want to hit the gym in the middle of the day? Yoga, cycling, step, and other numerous classes also available throughout the day.
6. Overtime at time and a half. Most SPEs will cap you at 20 hours a bi-week; some go as high as 50.
7. For those that care about all-mighty dollar, if you take a drive through the parking garage, you won't believe how many luxury cars you'll see. People are either doing well, or are living in their Beemers.
8. All this, while attending law-school part-time. A quick aside: for those that endured a rigorous engineering curriculum, balancing work and school won't be too difficult especially with the all the flexibility I talk about above.

In the end, what matters is that you accept the position with eyes wide open. For those, like me, that need more challeges, you'll find that making the move to law school, and eventually a law firm is even more appealling. But thats a topic for another day, eh?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Nov 14^th, 2006, 7:40am

on 11/14/06 at 06:58:11, prufrock69 wrote:

I have to disagree with much of that post. I think people should pay more attention to the first part of that post then the last. Lets face it, the job is paper-pushing drudgery. The idea that the monotany is broken by the patent applications that you read and their diversity is simply not very accurate. Do you have time to read them fully and understand them? Basically you have to understand maybe one or two concepts that are the real inventive concept and attack that. The workload gets so high that i sure don't have time to think about much else than quickly finding art and getting it off my desk.

Your focus is unfortunately on things that might lure people into the job under false pretenses. It like, "come on over and live the good life and drive a beamer." Anybody can buy a beamer if they make above maybe $50k and want to impress the neighbors. I know LOTS of people at the PTO that drive fancy cars, pay their rent, and have little left at the end of the month. More of a statement about our society when you drive through the parking garage, IMO, but i digress.

Quality of life is important (i could argue that living in DC isn't very high quality unless you have a few million...), but the things you point to as important are fairly shallow things and maybe shouldn't be used to justify throwing away an engineering degree (yep, that's basically what you are doing in terms of going back into a traditional engineering job) to get into a limited field.

BTW: OT is only time and a half at the lowest levels. Capped at gs10/1 until you reach your regular hourly rate - i haven't had time and a half for a while. And working 50 hours of overtime is desirable?

I might better understand your appeal to some freedoms at the PTO in terms of hours and other factors, but going to a firm as a suit to really slave away doesn't really jive. Maybe that fits in more with your 50 hours of overtime concept with all the billable hours requirements at a firm.

Yes, accept a PTO position with eyes wide open...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by prufrock69 on Nov 14^th, 2006, 9:49am

I'm compelled to respond to the previous post. I'm sure you will find many examiners that share the previous poster's POV; those that are disgruntled or disappointed with the position and feel their options now limited. I don't think I glossed over the fact that this is a significant departure from traditional engineering positions, be it computer, electrical or mechanical. Coming from a computer engineering background, I wasn't happy with what could easily be considered programming "drudgery".

Based on previous posts on this entire thread, it should be clear to those of you out there in the ether that this is not an engineering position. If you want to work with AJAX or develop your Python skills, you'd have to do so on your own time, which probably most do anyway. That said, I have never felt that the job entails mere paper-pushing nor have I ever felt unnerved from the persistent demands from a production schedule. Maybe I am in the minority, but those examiners that I know (they are in school too), have the same POV as me. We all have time in the day to get our work done, go to the gym, and go to class.

As for the superficial aspects that I talked about, this was in response to those posts that were curious as to benefits of the PTO. Having talked to older examiners who had left jobs (or had been laid off) from big tech like IBM or Microsoft [see AOL laying off 5k], these were some important factors to them. In addition to the job security, the other factors were important because many of them have families. The ability to schedule your job around your family and your life is a highly unusual perk, be it superficial or otherwise. There is no dispute that cost of living is less than ideal. And I can definitely understand that if career or physical mobility is a concern, the only practical option is to attend school. This is limiting no doubt. Hence, my advice to maintain the proper perspective in the previous post.

And finally, having gone through the interview process at many firms in the area, I find it difficult to believe that you'd be anymore a slave to your firm than you'd be to those tech companies where you could be forced to work overtime at salary. Indeed, many of the law firms had similar work at home programs, rewarding work opportunties and a rather relaxed atmosphere. Most patent attorneys are, after all, engineers at heart. Current attorneys could probably better address this issue.

It should be said that my goal has always been to be counsel to Google or Microsoft so my choice to enter this field makes sense. So I am biased. Like I said earlier, what matters is the perspective you have and the goals you have for your career. With that perspective, working at the PTO can be rewarding.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Nov 14^th, 2006, 5:14pm

Wow, you sure made some assumptions about my being disgrunted or disappointed and feel my options are limited. Maybe you should come here doing a little less bragging about yourself and slamming others.

Just trying to point out some inconsistencies in your post and give another perspective, one that might help save some people time and frustration about the PTO as a job and DC as a city. I've seen too many people leave this job very disappointed in their choice.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Nov 14^th, 2006, 6:17pm

on 11/14/06 at 17:14:29, guest wrote:

Thanks to both of you for the detailed information regarding working for the PTO. I don't think you were being slammed. It just appears to be two different opinions. Then again, your experience might be different due to working for two different supervisors. From what I understand, your supervisor can make or break you at the PTO, by controlling your training, time off, raises, counts(?), etc.

I've been lurking on here for awhile but I'm still not convinced I *want* to apply to the patent office. The DC area is expensive and dangerous (from what I see on the news). I'm studying for the LSAT and will wait and see how I do before applying. After all, if I don't score well enough to get accepted into one of the part time law school programs up there, the patent office job really could be a dead end job.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by MidwestPat on Nov 16^th, 2006, 8:39am

A friend of mine at the PTO passed this on about hiring there:

the PTO just a couple months ago, they moved to a blind hiring process in that all applications have no names attached to them so that the supervisor's evaluate candidates based on their credentials, and not whether they know the person. as you can see, that used to be pretty prevalent. so even if i gave his/her name to a supervisor, they'd have no way of pulling up the application.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Nov 16^th, 2006, 2:36pm

Hmm.. If I had a friend that wanted to hire me at the patent office, couldn't I give him a copy of my resume so he could look for my specific credentials?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by goldendragon822 on Nov 21^st, 2006, 12:04am

This forum has been very helpful in my research of working in the USPTO. Thanks for everyone who has given there input!

Responding to kcoleISU, I would not be too worried about your GPA. I'm sitting at a 2.73 in ECE and I just got a job offer from the USPTO. I started my "hunt" in July, but there wasn't any real response until I saw them in person at my college's job fair.

From my limited experience, if you keep at it you will get a reponse sooner or later. Try to get in touch with a SPE to speed up the process. Good luck!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by stuffball on Nov 21^st, 2006, 5:31am

I'm in a training class right now at the PTO and can tell you that they've hired a couple of people w/GPAs < 3.

There are also several people in my class w/ivy league phds and a guy who worked for ibm for 11 yrs and has 7 patents... so go figure.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest on Nov 21^st, 2006, 12:35pm

stuffball,
what is the schedule right now ? 8:00 to 5:00 everyday ? I'm going to join Jan and really knows how the schedule will be.
thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by stuffball on Nov 21^st, 2006, 1:49pm

7:30-5pm w/every other friday off.

and don't call me 'stuffball'

;)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Kerri on Nov 22^nd, 2006, 10:12am

I am also starting at the USPTO in January. I have an Electrical and Computer Engineering degree from Ohio State.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by curio23 on Nov 27^th, 2006, 5:36am

Hi Kerri,

Just out of curio, what's your level of experience? What GS level did they start you at?

Thanks.

Jerry

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by XMNR on Nov 27^th, 2006, 6:15pm

FYI the PTO just passed a 7% raise in salary for all employees effective mid-December. There should be another 2% raise in Januray.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest on Nov 28^th, 2006, 10:02am

about the rise, I got offer and intend to join PTO on Nov,06 but have to move it to Jan, 07. So the ones that join on Nov, 06 get the raise and I am not going to get it ? anybody has any ideas about this for new employee

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Kerri on Nov 28^th, 2006, 1:36pm

I am also starting at USPTO in January 07. I have a BS degree in Electrical and Computer Engineering from Ohio State and no work experience in that field, so they started me out as a G5-step 10.

I haven't heard anything about a pay raise on my end. Maybe people who haven't started yet aren't eligible. (But that's my own speculation.)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by GuestV on Nov 28^th, 2006, 3:38pm

The 7% raise is across the board for everybody in Patents. I believe the 2% raise previously mentioned is the cost of living adjustment, but I've only been here since June, so that's just my educated guess. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by stuffball on Nov 28^th, 2006, 5:48pm

yep, everybody gets the 7 %, including new hires.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Kerri on Nov 29^th, 2006, 9:44am

Well, I certainly hope I get the raise. It would be nice! I wonder when I will hear about it officially. Maybe they will wait until we start in January to tell us?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guestt on Nov 29^th, 2006, 11:45am

i'm not sure that we're going to get the raise since the start date is Jan, 07.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest@msnns.com on Nov 29^th, 2006, 2:44pm

Jeez people - get a clue.

The raise will be applied to the GS schedule and not to select people. Every grade and every step will increase by 7%. You get the increased pay no matter when you start.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Kerri on Nov 29^th, 2006, 7:50pm

On the POPA web site it says that the pay increase has been submitted to OPM for approval, which is required. I am not familiar with OPM, does that mean OPM could still veto the pay increase?

Also, the pay tables on the USPTO have not been updated to reflect the increase.

Maybe someone with more insight can give a little more explanation.

I can see why some people might be hesitant to believe this. I myself signed a contract with a specific amount - the G5 step 10 amt. And I have not been notified otherwise.

Not saying I don't believe you, just saying I understand both sides.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest@msnns.com on Nov 29^th, 2006, 8:09pm

1. POPA has not updated their site.
2. The Office of Personnel Management (OPM) approves just about all pay raises for all federal employees.
3. OPM approved the pay raise for the examining corps.
4. OPM releases the updated salary tables, not POPA or the USPTO.
5. You agreed to a GS level/step not to a specific salary. The salary for any GS leve/step will change every year; e.g., COLA, locality, special increases, etc.
6. The raise will be applied to the patent GS schedules and not to select people. Every grade and every step will increase by 7%. You get the increased pay no matter when you start.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Kerri on Nov 29^th, 2006, 8:41pm

Thanks for taking the time to outline all of that. I think that really helps. It helped me understand the process a little more.

Kerri

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by stuffball on Nov 30^th, 2006, 5:42am

According to an email I just got today (I'm a new-hire),the new GS5-step 10 salary is:

$49.964k

This is effective, Jan 1.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by stuffball on Nov 30^th, 2006, 9:14am

anybody know how they determine whether you get the 6 month promotion while you're in the training academy? does it have anything to do w/your scores on quizzes?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Nov 30^th, 2006, 3:52pm

I heard they have pop quizzes, and if you miss more than a certain amount of questions you will not receive the special promotion.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by GuestV on Nov 30^th, 2006, 5:10pm

In my training class, we didn't have any pop quizzes. We did have regularly scheduled quizzes (right after lectures usually), but frankly, no one cares what you get on them unless you fail a bunch... but if you pay attention (and even if you don't), you should be acing them.

Promotions are primarily/solely based on production... since that's what the job is all about.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Gueste on Nov 30^th, 2006, 5:25pm

on 11/30/06 at 15:52:43, daven wrote:

I heard they have pop quizzes, and if you miss more than a certain amount of questions you will not receive the special promotion.

I just started and you are given quizzes but they are NOT pop quizzes.

As far as promotions while in the PTA they are given but I cant say what exactly the criteria is for it. I know its based on your production and how well you are steadily increasing in production.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest46 on Nov 30^th, 2006, 7:45pm

Your 6-month promotion has absolutely nothing to do with the quizzes. First of all, nobody cares what you get on quizzes. The quizzes are open note quizzes (right after a lecture), with the questions and answers usually pulled straight from the notes, word for word. It's beyond simple. We were informed that in order to make your accelerated promotions while in the training academy, you must be at an average production level in between your current gs level and the next gs level over the course of 5 biweeks. So, its based on production. And yes, this is for the patent training academy. So, if you acheive that level of production for the 5 biweeks prior to your 6 month mark, you'll get a promotion at 6 months. If you acheive it at 7 months, you'll get it at 7 months, etc. I'm not sure what the requirements are once you graduate the academy, but we've been told the process is roughly the same, except that instead of 5 biweeks, it is over a longer period of time that you have to average the increased production.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Dutt on Dec 1^st, 2006, 5:59am

Hello. I'm doing a paper on gov't practices. My uncle is a former examiner but he doesn't know if new hires are drug tested. Does anyone know?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by stuffball on Dec 1^st, 2006, 7:33am

I started on Nov 13th. So far, no one has asked for, or even mentioned, anything regarding a drug test.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Dec 1^st, 2006, 7:47am

The USPTO wasn't doing drug testing when I was there a few years ago. I found that a bit surprising, but maybe that's because I'm a former military guy.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Dec 2^nd, 2006, 2:46pm

on 11/30/06 at 19:45:37, guest46 wrote:

Geez! Can't a guy yank someone's chain these days?:) I was kidding.. not to mention, I don't even work for the patent office. I want to apply but haven't decided I could handle living up there. Is it really that bad as far as traffic and crime? I drove up for a look at the new patent office buildings. The new complex is nice!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mseered on Dec 2^nd, 2006, 2:59pm

I just accepted my offer with USPTO as a GS7-10 with an EE degree. Does anyone know if they have cont. education other than law school? Also, can anyone offer some living locations that in decent neighborhoods.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guestb on Dec 2^nd, 2006, 3:21pm

Stuffball ;D, base on your email, the raise is more than 7%
mseered, do you receive any email reflect new salary for your level ?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mseered on Dec 2^nd, 2006, 3:42pm

No, but I do get the pay increase though. I was notified by someone in HR that I have been speaking with since Sept.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mseered on Dec 2^nd, 2006, 3:44pm

Are there any other new hires that are starting on Jan. 22?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Kerri on Dec 2^nd, 2006, 10:08pm

I am also starting Jan 22.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mseered on Dec 3^rd, 2006, 11:09am

Kerri,

Have you found an apartment within a reasonable price range. I have yet to visit DC, (due to finals next week) but from looking on-line, it appears that the rent is going to bleed my pockets dry.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Kerri on Dec 3^rd, 2006, 11:47am

Mseered,

My husband and I visited DC the first week of November looking for a place. We focused our search mostly on the suburbs of VA.

We found a place in Manassas Park, called Haverhill. It is only 2 years old and it a nice community right next to the VRE (Virginia Railway Express). I can walk to the train and it’s a 30 min ride to Alexandria. Our 2 BD, 2 Bath place is $1339 per month to rent. They have a 3% rent deduction for government employees; as did some other places, so ask about that. It could save you a few bucks.

We looked in Woodbridge, VA also, but we didn’t think it was as nice and a lot of the communities there were income restricted, which I didn’t qualify for.

We also looked in Reston, VA and Herndon VA. Reston is nice and has a nice shopping complex, but it’s far out. The only public transportation currently are shuttle busses to the metro stations.

We looked around the Dulles airport area too, but it has the same issue. You either drive, or catch a shuttle bus to a metro station.

I did quite a bit of research online. The places I liked in Alexandria that had good reviews were too high for us (started from $1700). It seemed to me the more reasonable places in Alexandria had very poor reviews (bugs and the like).

There are some more affordable places in the southwest DC area, but I’ve read that this is the most dangerous area of town. So we avoided that area altogether.

If you can’t swing the rent, you aren’t alone. I’ve looked at craigslist online a lot, and I’ve noticed that there are a lot of people looking to rent out basement’s of their home or extra bedrooms.

If you have any questions, let me know. I can try to answer them.

Kerri

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by GuestK on Dec 4^th, 2006, 9:03am

Hi Kerri,
Do you know about school rating for the place that you intend to rent. I have a boy in elementary school and would like to know school rating
thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Kerri on Dec 4^th, 2006, 11:53am

I do not have kids, so I don't know anything about the schools. I would recommend that you do a search on the internet for Manassas Park schools. There are sites you can find out things like test scores and achievements.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by PTOer from NoVA on Dec 5^th, 2006, 6:38pm

All else being equal, if you have children, try to live in Fairfax county. Fairfax is regarded as having the best school system in the area, and one of the best in the country. Avoid DC city schools.

If you are young and single, you should consider living in DC. The PTO is easily accessible from the metro, and there are a lot of fun places to live in the city. It isn't any more expensive than trying to rent within walking distance to the PTO, but the nightlife is way better.

If you don't want the city, try to live near a Metro at least. It will be more expensive, but it is very convenient to commute via the metro, and the government will pay for it. That will save you $100 in parking fees right there.

If you must drive, keep in mind that the traffic can be brutal on certain roads during rush hour (esp I66, I95 and I-495 at Woodrow Wilson Bridge). Plan to leave for work before 6:00 or after 9:00 in the AM, and before 3:00 or after 7:00 or so at night if you want to avoid the worst of it on those roads, although this won't be an option while you are at the Patent Academy. If you live in Fairfax/Arlington County or Alexandria City, you can travel on back roads which won't be as bad. Otherwise, you may want to consider renting close to the PTO/Metro for your first year so you can get an idea what the traffic situation is and where a good place for you to live would be.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guestK on Dec 6^th, 2006, 8:42am

thanks for your advices. I want to rent the aparment/condos closed either Metro or PTO site with good elementary school rating. Anybody has any ideas ? please advices
thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by 101010 on Dec 7^th, 2006, 12:36am

Can someone dissect this for me

Quote:

Thank you for your interest in the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. Before your interview with , Supervisory Patent Examiners information and additional documents are needed before you are considered for the new USPTO Patent Training Academy beginning January 22, 2007 or February 19, 2007. Once I have all of your paperwork, a Request for Hire will be submitted for Director's approval, and after their authorization, the Office of Human Resources for processing.
Please note: Only the Office of Human Resources can extend a formal job offer. This is not an offer letter.

Note I've already had an interview with an SPE (obviously this is a form letter). Anybody else seen something similar? Does this mean all that's left is a background check?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Kerri on Dec 7^th, 2006, 12:20pm

Yes, I got this too, in an email. This is basically a letter stating that they want to offer you a job, but they need you to submit more paperwork before an official offer is extended.

As long as your paperwork gets in and checks out fine, you should have a job offer coming your way. They told me it would take 1-2 weeks before they would extend an offer after i got the paperwork in. In my case, HR called me about 1 week after my paperwork was in to offer me a job. After I accepted on the phone, they FEDexed me a new hire packet (more paperwork!).

So get excited! This is really good news! (Should you want the job of course).

I haven't started yet. They wanted me to start in November, but I have a house to sell and a spouse who has to relocate his job as well. So I got them to push back my start date. I start on January 22.

Kerri

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by 01101010 on Dec 7^th, 2006, 2:32pm

I qualify at GS09 but does that necessarily mean they will offer me GS09? The recruitment incentive table at benefits page seems precise (which I can't link because of the board software) enough that I wonder if those aren't their standards.

The difference between GS07/10 and GS09/8 is almost $7K, although with everything I've read up to this point about production levels I might be better off starting at GS07.
56797+7703=64500
62624+8650=71274

The HR person I talked to called me after she sent the email asking to switch my paperwork to the February class (January was full). That was 10 days ago so I was wondering if I should start to get concerned. Hopefully they're just a little behind.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest5 on Dec 8^th, 2006, 11:30am

I've been reading this forum for a couple of weeks now. I am still unsure if i want to work for the USPTO. I just graduated and have an offer gs7-10. I also have an offer from a well known company as a software engineer. The $$$$ is what is tempting me to join the PTO. The pay difference is almost $15K!!

What would you do ???

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Kerri on Dec 8^th, 2006, 11:58am

You can only make that decision yourself. Understand that PTO is a lot of reading and paperwork, whereas the software engineering position will be problem solving and coding.

You have to ask yourself which would you rather do?

I believe you can be successful at either. But only you can decide in what direction you want your career to go.

Have you asked the company if they will match your PTO offer or will up the ante on their offer?

When my husband was looking at jobs a few years ago, he had competing offers as well. If you really want a job, but the offer is lower than others, make sure your employer knows that. Tell them, "hey, i really want to come work here, but I have higher offers elsewhere. Can you make me a higher or better offer?". The worse thing they can say is that is their final offer.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mom agent on Dec 12^th, 2006, 12:52pm

Thanks for all your postings, they have been very useful. I'm considering joining USPTO. I have a few questions if anyone can give me some insights that would be much appreciated.

1. If I send out my resume to USPTO today, how long should I expect to hear from them? Can I follow up with HR? What is the hiring procedure like? Is it very competitive in getting an offer?

2. I have three kids in (preschool and kindergarden ages). Fist of all, thanks for the previous postings about the good school district - Fairfax County, I'll defintely look into that area. How flexible is the working hours from PTO? Can I leave early to pick up the kids? and make up the hours in the evenings/weekends by working from home?

3. I have a MS degree and worked in the biotech field for 5 years. I also worked in the patent field for 2 years and passed the patent bar exam. What level should I expect to enter as a patent examiner?

Thanks much for your input.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by GUEST-- on Dec 12^th, 2006, 2:27pm

I will be visiting the PTO soon and would like to check out a couple apartments in the area. Which 2 or 3 apartment complexes in the immediate area are worth looking at? I plan on seeing the ****n at Carlyle. Is this the same place as the "****n Carlyle" that several other posters have previously mentioned? Does anyone recommend or not recommend these apartments?

I appreciate the help.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by GUEST-- on Dec 12^th, 2006, 2:32pm

Odd that writing M e ri di an a t Ca rly le turns into "**** at Carlyle" after posting it.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by 1010102 on Dec 13^th, 2006, 1:27am

Apartmentratings dot com has good info. The M3r1d1an is one of the highest rated.

As one might imagine, that's a pretty high end area. Here are the M3r1d1an rates:
Studio $1265 - $1665
One Bedroom $1510 - $1910
One Bedroom w/den $1830 - $2130
Two Bedroom $2100 - $2600

Personally I couldn't imagine paying up to $1665 for a studio. If you're just worried about the commute you could always find something close to the metro. Also, from what I understand parking at the USPTO is plentiful (but not free) so if you have a car you do not necessarily have to be close to the metro.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by 1010102 on Dec 13^th, 2006, 1:46am

on 12/12/06 at 12:52:51, mom agent wrote:

1. If I send out my resume to USPTO today, how long should I expect to hear from them? Can I follow up with HR? What is the hiring procedure like?

I filled out JARS August 28 and got an email from HR November 7. I had a phone interview November 14. I got another email November 27 to have me fill out the background check forms.

JARS works very slowly (if at all). Some people think that using the hiring contacts on the usptocareers dot gov website works well.

You can call human resources at (800) 786-9757.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by ViperTX on Dec 17^th, 2006, 4:57pm

I'm suppose to start on Jan 22, I'm still looking for an apartment....am considering the ****n at Carlyle or the Post Carlyle....depending on which has a studio available. I figure for 8 months, I'll most likely be sleeping and studying and venturing out from homebase looking for something with a garage that is cheaper then these 2 units.

I've looked at a bunch of apartments on line and then checked them out on apartmentratings.com and to tell you the truth....it seems pretty scary....everyone that I know that has been visiting in that part of the country thinks it's safe and clean...hmmmmm

I'm planning on going up there without a vehicle....I think my pickup truck will be more of a hassle, so I'll sell it down in TX.

Any suggestions?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by swimfast59 on Dec 18^th, 2006, 1:50am

I'm in law school now. I have one more year to go. I have a BS in Chemistry and I did research while an undergrad which led to publication.

I want to work at the USPTO to get patent experience and take the patent bar. I'd expect to work there for a few years at least before I moved to a firm specializing in patent prosecution.

I also want to take advantage of the USPTO's federal loan forgiveness program - I think its 10K/year for six years. That would certainly make a dent in my loans.

Lastly, I'd finish at a lawschool in the area as a visiting student.

I sent in my application on Nov. 13. I contacted a hiring recruiter from the USPTO webpage and he said he'd forward my information to the Chemical supervisors and that the next interviewing would be in the early spring. The USPTO will also be holding a career fair on 1/5 in New York which I plan to attend. So, does anyone have any suggestions for me? Specifically, I'm pretty sure I want this job, so how do I make sure I get it?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Dec 18^th, 2006, 1:57pm

on 12/18/06 at 01:50:53, swimfast59 wrote:

Lastly, I'd finish at a lawschool in the area as a visiting student.

Is this possible? I don't think it's possible to transfer more than approximately one years worth of law school credits. Also, I believe there is an ABA accreditation rule that prevents graduating from a law school without essentially two years of course work at that school.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Dec 18^th, 2006, 3:15pm

on 12/18/06 at 01:50:53, swimfast59 wrote:

I also want to take advantage of the USPTO's federal loan forgiveness program - I think its 10K/year for six years. That would certainly make a dent in my loans.

http://www.opm.gov/oca/pay/StudentLoan/HTML/QandAs.asp

Q2. Are employees entitled to a student loan repayment?

A2. No. An agency has discretionary authority to repay certain types of Federally insured student loans as a recruitment or retention incentive for highly qualified candidates or current employees.
------------------------------------------------
I looked at the uspto website and saw no evidence that they participate in the program. Do you have direct knowledge that the program exists?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by swimfast59 on Dec 19^th, 2006, 12:24am

First - I didn't say I'd transfer to a law school in Virginia/Washington DC. I said I would finish law school as a visiting student at a school in the area - this means that I'd receive my diploma from the school I'm in now, in NYC, but I would take classes and receive credits from a school in Virginia/Wash. DC, thereby finishing the remainder of school away from NYC.

Second - I have no direct knowledge that the USPTO partipates in the loan forgiveness program, however, I know that the Department of Justice does. Perhaps I assumed that all federal agencies have this program - I'm not quite sure at the moment. I will ask around, or perhaps someone on this forum knows...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Dec 19^th, 2006, 5:55am

on 12/19/06 at 00:24:16, swimfast59 wrote:

this means that I'd receive my diploma from the school I'm in now, in NYC, but I would take classes and receive credits from a school in Virginia/Wash. DC, thereby finishing the remainder of school away from NYC.

I still question whether you can do that for two years worth of credits, but I guess you really didn't say when you were going to start this.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by swimfast59 on Dec 19^th, 2006, 6:23am

I have one year left of school - not two. There's nothing to question. Lots of schools admit visiting students for these purposes.

See this excerpt from Georgetown's website:

"Students in their final year of studies who are in good standing at an accredited law school in the United States may apply as visiting non-degree students for no more than one academic year. Visiting students will earn credit for transfer to their degree-granting institution.

The Law Center reviews visiting student applications for both Spring and Fall semester admission. Visiting applicants are considered for either the Full Time or the Part Time Division. An application to attend the Law Center as a visiting student will not be considered unless the applicant’s Dean authorizes the student’s attendance and agrees to transfer the credits earned at the Law Center."

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Dec 19^th, 2006, 10:10am

on 12/19/06 at 06:23:34, swimfast59 wrote:

I have one year left of school - not two. There's nothing to question. Lots of schools admit visiting students for these purposes.

I see your point. Yes, your plan coud work. The PTO is a good place to get experience, but trying to go to law school during the probationary period as an examiner might be fairly difficult. You might find working as a tech specialist in DC at least as good an opportunity, and a law firm is probably far more likely to accomodate a law student's schedule than is the USPTO.

Good luck with whatever you end up doing.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by stuffball on Dec 19^th, 2006, 11:50am

Why not do part-time law school and work at the USPTO? Seems like part-time law school would pretty easy to handle during the 8 month training period. It would take you a little longer to finish, but you'd get a lot of good real, world experience.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Dec 19^th, 2006, 4:21pm

on 12/19/06 at 10:10:45, Isaac wrote:

I don't know from personal experience.. but isn't the third year the easiest of the three?

I'll bet some of the people at the patent office wouldn't want to hire an examiner who says he'll leave within a few years. You may want to consider telling them you're interested in starting as an examiner and transferring to a job at the patent office that requires a JD some time after you graduate.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by swimfast59 on Dec 20^th, 2006, 9:15pm

on 12/19/06 at 16:21:52, daven wrote:

Thanks Daven - that is a good idea. I mean, I'm really open to any opportunities in general. If I'm happy and I'm paying off my student loans, then woo hoo...

As for the easiest years - it depends on what courses you decide to take and when. I only have ten credits left after June, so I don't think it would be too difficult to finish up and work at the USPTO. Also, Isaac, I must say that I doubt a law firm would be very accommadating. Perhaps, but in my experience, law firms want your blood. Its a rarity to find a place that is concerned with making its employee's lives easier!

I'm definitely looking forward to the career fair on 1/5. Thanks Isaac and Daven for your comments.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Dec 21^st, 2006, 5:47am

While it is true that law firms want you to work, my experience watching the treatment of law students at the firm I work at is that the firm has been quite accomodating including allowing the students to work reduced hours if they so request. Some firms might be different, but at least you might be able to avoid working for them.

However, I'm also a former examiner who took a job at the PTO after graduation from law school. My impression of the PTO is that they are not nearly so accomodating for beginning examiners. I don't personally believe that going to law school on a part time basis while a probationary examiner is a good idea, but maybe some can pull it off. Because you have only 10 credits left, perhaps its more plausible that you could finish. Maybe you could even consider going to summer school before starting at the PTO if you get hired.

Good Luck.

Your mileage may vary. Void where prohibited by law. Objects shown in the mirror are closer than they appear ...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by nightyme on Dec 21^st, 2006, 8:59pm

Let me ask you, how long did you work as an examiner at the PTO after law school? I've heard its good just to work a year or two? Also heard 1 year is max.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by marnie1234 on Dec 26^th, 2006, 4:32pm

Before I started at the PTO, I asked patent attorney friends how long i should stay there. THe universal opinion is that experience there up to 2 yrs is terrific, but after that it's not as useful.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by stuffball on Dec 26^th, 2006, 4:35pm

There are some pretty cool jobs available for attorneys at the PTO. For example... and I don't know the details... you can join a unit that does int'l treaty negotiation. If you're interested in policy that might be cool. Of course, it's a pay-cut when compared to firm work... but it's probably a lot more interesting and the hours aren't as crazy.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by liv'nitup on Jan 1^st, 2007, 3:51pm

will having passed the patent bar exam move you up in gs level prior to promotion and/or prior to start of training? I'm starting as gs5-10 without sufficient (only 5 months) work experience.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Jan 2^nd, 2007, 6:02am

It might help you get the job but I don't believe they can start you at a higher GS level if you've passed the exam. Get used to dealing with cumbersome federal regulations..

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Soon to Be Examiner on Jan 3^rd, 2007, 3:09pm

Any new examiners know what the actual hours of the training academy are? I'm working on my Masters and need to plan out my courses to fit with commute when I start in March. Thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Jan 3^rd, 2007, 7:45pm

on 01/03/07 at 15:09:01, Soon to Be Examiner wrote:

Any new examiners know what the actual hours of the training academy are? I'm working on my Masters and need to plan out my courses to fit with commute when I start in March. Thanks.

According to reply #759 (page 76) of this thread:
7:30-5pm w/every other friday off.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by stuffball on Jan 4^th, 2007, 11:38am

That's true about the PTA schedule except that, after 2 months, you go on flex scheduling. We haven't done that yet, but I understand it means you can come in as late as 10am and leave as early as 2:30... provided you don't miss any lectures and stuff... and the total amount of hrs you put in is 40/week.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Jan 5^th, 2007, 6:07pm

Anyone know how they determine what step within a GS level you start at? Do they simply pick one to match your current salary? thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by dbot on Jan 11^th, 2007, 11:31pm

Hey guys, I just accepted my offer from the patent office and will start on Feb 20.

Im gonna be taking the Metro from Columbia, MD. As I understand, the metro runs every 15 min in the morning? The estimated travel time by metro is 54 minutes. So I figure if I catch the Green Line at greenbelt metro station at 6am, I would then go to L' Enfant Plaza and connect to the Blue Line to King street and be there by 7am.

Does that sound about right for classes that start at 7:30?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Jan 12^th, 2007, 3:16pm

It looks like I'm starting 2/19. Advice I have for people going through this process is to follow up with HR. I have been somewhat busy over the last month and didn't really follow up with them until the last few days. Turns out they decided to hire me about three weeks ago (it would have been nice if they had let me know).

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Mike M on Jan 13^th, 2007, 4:52pm

Can anyone tell me what the retirement/pension pay is like for the USPTO? Is it like the Navy, where you get half your salary after retirement if you put in 30 years?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Joe7451 on Jan 14^th, 2007, 12:23am

As I understand it, the majority of federal employees at all agencies and including the USPTO use the Federal Employees Retirement System. The pension is basically 1%*(qualified years of federal service)*(average of your highest three years of pay in the federal government).

There is also the Thrift Savings Plan (like a 401k), and social security which go into the mix.

There are enough terms and conditions of this to fill a series of books, which are on the OPM webpage: http://www.opm.gov/retire/html/library/fers.asp.

That site should be pretty useful.
-Joe

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Eric C. Jarsh on Jan 21^st, 2007, 12:18pm

how many law school graduates get a job with the USPTO as examiners? and what level are law school graduates usually started at? i know there is a division within the USPTO that hires only lawyers (office of the solicitor), and i was wondering what career opportunities are available for lawyers at the USPTO, either as an examiner or the solicitor's office. thanks!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Jan 22^nd, 2007, 7:01am

on 01/21/07 at 12:18:48, Eric C. Jarsh wrote:

The percentage of law school graduates hired as examiners is relatively small but not zero. For example, three of the junior associates here (including myself) are former examiners who had law degrees when hired by the PTO. Some supervisors won't hire law school graduates because they expect difficulty in retaining them more than a year or two.

Generally speaking, new law graduates with no legal experience should expect to be offered salaries based on their technical credentials. For engineers a typical starting level would be GS-7 or GS-9 probably at step 10.

I'm not familiar with the details of the positions in the solicitor's office, but typically hiring is very competitive and the positions usually specify a year of experience (usually can be satisfied by examining at the PTO) The positions are fairly often filled by examiner's with law degrees.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Eric C. Jarsh on Jan 22^nd, 2007, 6:32pm

thanks isaac, i find you to be extremely helpful as i've seen your responses in so many posts. so is there any reason that a lawyer would become an examiner? it sounds like the solicitor's office is competitive, so it's not like that's a guaranteed career track. and if they hire lawyers at the same level, then it seems as though a law degree and being a patent examiner don't go hand in hand.

is there a good long term track for lawyers at the USPTO that is a bit more dependable?

basically, i would like to work there because of the hours/lifestyle compared to the law firms that i'm seeing. however, is that a good plan if all i'm ever going to be is just an examiner? thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Jan 22^nd, 2007, 8:33pm

on 01/22/07 at 18:32:37, Eric C. Jarsh wrote:

thanks isaac, i find you to be extremely helpful as i've seen your responses in so many posts. so is there any reason that a lawyer would become an examiner?

At least some are using the PTO as a stepping stone for a career in the private sector.

Quote:

it sounds like the solicitor's office is competitive, so it's not like that's a guaranteed career track. and if they hire lawyers at the same level, then it seems as though a law degree and being a patent examiner don't go hand in hand.

There are lots of jobs at the PTO for which legal training is an asset or a requirement.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Jan 25^th, 2007, 12:45am

Could someone from the January 22 class please summarize what the first few days are like.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest1234 on Jan 26^th, 2007, 4:16pm

Quick questions for you guys -

after all deductions are made from your paycheck, what percentage would I expect to take home? 65%? 70%? 75%?

Thanks for the info -

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jan 30^th, 2007, 11:16am

I don't work at the USPTO yet, but I do work for the gov't as a civilian employee and would guess that the deductions are very similar if not exactly the same...I'm on the DC GS payscale. It depends on how many exemptions you claim or are eligible for, how much you contribute towards your TSP (thrift savings plan which is the gov't 401k pretty much). When I used to claim 1 exemption, paid $33.28 for health insurance, after all deductions, and no contribution to TSP, my net pay would be about 65% of my gross salary. So, I think 65% would be a good estimate. I would also get money back at tax time.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Jan 30^th, 2007, 1:55pm

on 01/30/07 at 11:16:06, mandejapan wrote:

I agree with the percentage. I'm also a non-uspto GS employee and end up with right at 60%. Why would you not contribute when they match 5%? We have a (single paying another guy at work $500/mo rent) guy at work who said he was so broke he couldn't afford to contribute the 5%.. even if it means not getting the matching money. To make things worse, this guy is an engineering grad from virginia tech!:)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jan 31^st, 2007, 1:12pm

I didn't say that I don't contribute to TSP. :) I contribute the 5% as well, but my net take home salary is still somewhere between 60-65% in the end.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Feb 6^th, 2007, 3:54pm

How easy is it to drive to the USPTO? I am planning on living in Virginia and at most five or six miles away from the USPTO. It seems like driving from South Arlington or Del Ray would be rather simple. South Alexandria has cheaper housing. Would there be any problems from driving up from there?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by jd on Feb 7^th, 2007, 10:01pm

<<How easy is it to drive to the USPTO? I am planning on living in Virginia and at most five or six miles away from the USPTO. It seems like driving from South Arlington or Del Ray would be rather simple. South Alexandria has cheaper housing. Would there be any problems from driving up from there?>>

I live in the Lynhaven area of Alexandria (north of Del Ray) and not far from the Potomac Yard shopping center. I usually take the bus into work (20 minute commute) but sometimes I drive. The drive is pretty easy and never takes longer than 15 minutes.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Feb 13^th, 2007, 1:09pm

Just wondering if anyone knows if there are any recruitment incentives like the Computer Engineer or Electrical Engineer one here:

http://usptocareers.gov/benefits.asp

for anyone other than EEs and CEs? And even to qualify for this EE/CE bonus do you have to have majored in that or have a masters, or can you be qualified based on a certain amount of EE/CE classes that you've taken?

Also, do you have to get hired in one of the EE or CE specific art units or could you get hired into other art units? (e.g. 3730 Art Units...medical instruments, diagnostic equipment, treatment devices, surgery, etc)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest284 on Feb 13^th, 2007, 10:28pm

Are any of you familiar with the tuition reimbursment program. I keep getting mixed responses regarding the amount of time you have to be employed before receiving tuition assistance.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Feb 14^th, 2007, 8:55am

For legal studies the requirement is to be a full time employee with at least two years of continuous service at the PTO at the time of start of the Fall semester of law school.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Feb 14^th, 2007, 2:53pm

I'm not sure what the requirement is for technical studies, but I have a friend there who started working around January 2006, and they started paying for his masters in EE at UMCP in fall of 2006. Maybe for technical studies there is no waiting requirement or maybe it's just another one of those things that are dependent on your SPE.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Feb 15^th, 2007, 11:33am

Actually I misunderstood. The first classes they paid for him for his masters were just this spring 2007, so he said he had to wait about 1 year before they started paying for his tuition, since he started working there in early february of 2006.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Feb 15^th, 2007, 1:32pm

on 02/15/07 at 11:33:19, mandejapan wrote:

Your correction sounds about right. I believe that for technical training you just have to have 4 quarters of fully satisfactory performance (I may be using the wrong words) so you'd have to be at the PTO at least a year.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Feb 15^th, 2007, 9:58pm

on 02/13/07 at 13:09:57, mandejapan wrote:

They'll hire you whether they think you're qualified. For instance, my undergraduate degree is in "Engineering" and I got hired as an EE. The only issue with that was that "The Director" had to adjudicate my transcripts. That took forever (they didn't give me my formal offer for 2/20 start date until 2/06).

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Feb 16^th, 2007, 6:16am

on 02/15/07 at 21:58:36, mk1023 wrote:

I couldn't pick out of your answer whether you qualified for and received the incentive bonus? Did you?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest284 on Feb 16^th, 2007, 11:37am

I recently spoke to the HR rep who gave the offer. She explained to me that I would be eligible for an accelerated promotion at the end of 6 months and another promotion at the end of the year. If I were to get all those promotions, I could be a GS11 next year. How achievable and common is that?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Feb 16^th, 2007, 2:10pm

on 02/16/07 at 06:16:00, Isaac wrote:

I couldn't pick out of your answer whether you qualified for and received the incentive bonus? Did you?

I think he is saying he did get the bonus, but I had a few questions in response. May I ask...

1) What art unit did you get hired into?
2) I didn't understand what you were trying to say with the dates of when you actually got your formal offer and when you had your interview..."they didn't give me my formal offer for 2/20 start date until 2/06"

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Feb 16^th, 2007, 2:15pm

on 02/16/07 at 11:37:10, guest284 wrote:

The SPE I interviewed with today told me the same thing. If you get hired at a GS 7 level you could be eligible for TWO 6 month accelerated promotions now. If you get hired as a GS 9, you can only have one 6 month accelerated promotion. That sounds like a good deal so long as you are ready to handle the higher production levels. I'm interested to know how new this rule is, and if it's common for people to do this. In the past I've only read/heard about one 6 month accelerated promotions no matter what rank you start at.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Feb 16^th, 2007, 3:30pm

on 02/16/07 at 14:10:31, mandejapan wrote:

Yeah I am getting the bonus. Nobody's told me what art unit I'm in. On my official letter it says to contact Ayaz Sheikh if I have any questions about my new position. He's listed on www.usptocareers.gov/contact.asp under "Error Correction, Cryptography, Security".

Here's a timeline of my experience with USPTO:
August 2006: Submit application to JARS
mid-November 2006: Phone interview with an SPE. This guy said he processed patents for stuff like medical scanning, but he was allowed to recommend people be hired for other units (which is what happened in my case).
late-November 2006: Email asking me to submit various hiring forms
January 2007: I followed up with my original contact at the hiring center. He checked my file and found out that they decided to hire me on 12/27/06. He sent an email to HR person. A week later with no response I called the HR person. Turns out they lost my transcripts so I had to send new ones. At this point I was basically told that I would be hired as a "general engineer" without the bonus unless my transcripts were adjudicated by "The Director". About two weeks and four or five phone calls later and I finally got an offer for the 2/20/07 start tate.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Feb 17^th, 2007, 1:21pm

I see. Your SPE contact, Ayaz Sheikh is the SPE of Art Unit 2131 - Computer Security & Cryptography according to these links:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/info/2100.htm

http://pair.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/final/employee_loc.pl?action=orgquery&ORGANIZATION=2131

You mentioned in your previous post that you got hired as an "EE" even though you were a general engineer for undergrad. Did you have a lot of EE credits or CE credits? If so, how many credits/courses? I'm just trying to understand how it was possible for the Director (probably director of that Technology Center) to adjudicate your transcripts to hire you as an EE.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Feb 17^th, 2007, 6:27pm

Undergraduate: 41/133 credits EE
Graduate: 21/31 credits EE

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by jchris on Feb 18^th, 2007, 12:22pm

Hello all, I've read some of the posts here and would like to share my story and hope it helps someone out and to pose some questions.

I come from the NYC/NJ area. I graduated Fall 06 with my BS in Biomedical Engineering. I became interested in the Patent Office over a year ago from classmates who were offered positions there. Over time, I wanted to work for the PTO for a couple of reasons

1. Job security - govt work is always secure and the engineering market (at least for me and my friends) was a little bleak

2. Pay. I was hired this past week starting at GS7/10 at 61893 my GPA was a 3.44. A friend of mine working as an EE for 4 years with a master's was making 64K so I thought the pay was more than competitive.

3. Hours, after being a slave to work and school through out my undergrad, I don’t want to be a slave to my job and dealing with random hours. I learned to value my time and freedom and knowing that after training, I can set up my own schedule was a great bonus, not to mention all holidays off, the vacation, and overtime for comp hours or pay.

4. I do not want to move but the drive from VA to NJ is not too bad so at least I know on the weekends I can always come home and visit my family and friends.

My job process went as followed.
1. I applied to JARS in May 2006. Heard nothing
2. A jobfair was held in NYC in Nov 2006. I attended and interviewed. The guy seemed more interested in my GPA. Not too many technical questions, so I thought it went well. Then again, I had interviews in the past where I thought it went well and didn't get it. It was also conducted in the hallway of the hotel. Heard nothing.
3. Jan 07, started a new job and hated it. Wondered what the PTO was doing with my application. I called a bunch of people and they basically told me that because of the amount of applicants they get, I might not even hear anything.
4. Mid Jan 07, really hating my new job, I saw another Job Fair in Alexandria for Feb 2. I e-mailed the hiring coordinator for BME and explained to her how I interviewed before, that I'm interested in the job, saw the career fair in Feb, should I apply for that. I got a call the next day saying that they read my e-mail, pulled up my file and want to hire me.
5. Sent me links for paper work and submitted it the following week. Got a call from HR confirming the hire. From the call from the Hiring Coordinator to HR was from Jan 17 to Feb 15, nearly a month of waiting endlessly.

So I hope my story helps those interested in applying. I would recommend just going to the job fair and following up !! If I did not e-mail the hiring coordinator, my application would still be on file.

Now that I'm hired, I am excited to move down to VA. I start in July, so I have plenty of time to get myself organized. I have a couple of questions for people who work at the PTO.

1. For the first 2 months of training, its 730-5 with every other friday off? What happens to your hours after that? I have an important function to attend to during the last weekend of Oct and would like to try to get a day or two off of work. And for those who are in training or just recently finished training, what were your impressions/thoughts of it?

2. The general feeling is that your supervisor will make or break your experience. If you don't like your supervisor, can you switch?

3. I started looking into apartments and found some decent ones within a 5 mile area of the PTO headquarters in Alexandria. Are there any areas that I should avoid like the plague? I.e. north of the PTO office, south, west, east? Coming from NJ/NYC, I am familiar with the hood spots and would prefer not to revisit them, lolz. Or what areas in Alexandria or in the area would you recommend living? I'm 23 and recent grad with loans, so I would like to keep everything a thousand or less.

4. I know a little bit about patent law just from the DVD from the PTO and the IP Person from my university talked with us one lecture. What would you recommend I do while I wait to get started? I was thinking of getting some books on IP and PAtent law and general books of Biomedical Engineering just to keep my mind fresh.

5. I never considered law but the PTO has spurred my interests. What are the stipulations for obtaining a law degree after 2 years? For example, after obtaining your degree, how many years are you expected to stay with the PTO?

I appreciate any and all feedback.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Feb 18^th, 2007, 5:51pm

on 02/18/07 at 12:22:31, jchris wrote:

3. I started looking into apartments and found some decent ones within a 5 mile area of the PTO headquarters in Alexandria. Are there any areas that I should avoid like the plague? I.e. north of the PTO office, south, west, east? Coming from NJ/NYC, I am familiar with the hood spots and would prefer not to revisit them, lolz. Or what areas in Alexandria or in the area would you recommend living? I'm 23 and recent grad with loans, so I would like to keep everything a thousand or less.

A thousand dollars is probably on the low side of what you can expect to pay for something decent. Don't trust what you read. I saw a lot of apartment listings on craigslist that seemed pretty good, but when I looked them up at apartmentratings.com they had ratings like 13%. You should also consider renting a condo rather than going through apartment management.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by gues284 on Feb 19^th, 2007, 8:00am

Do employees working at the USPTO receive any bonuses/incentives at the end of the year for their production?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Feb 19^th, 2007, 12:00pm

guest284: On the benefits page it mentions "Performance Awards and Productivity Gainsharing" as one of the benefits. Although I do not work for the USPTO, I would assume the Performance Awards process is similar in all of the government. At the end of your rating period, an appraisal is performed by your supervisor where he/she rates you on a scale of 1 to 5, based on how your performance objectives. Then he/she will give you an appraisal performance award based on how you score. Usually the performance award is something like a certain percentage of your salary bonus like maybe 1-5% of your salary. Another award could be a QSI (Quality Step Increase) where let's say you were a GS 13, Step 4, then they can promote you to a GS 13, Step 5 as an award. I'm not sure how the "Productivity Gainsharing" works but I think that's based on your Art Unit's overall production levels? A current PTO employee would have to comment on that.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Feb 19^th, 2007, 12:14pm

Wondering if anyone here that has recently been hired by the PTO worked a different federal job before transitioning to the PTO....if so, may I ask you how they determined what GS level you start at and your general promotion scale? I ask because I've heard several different things such as they try and start you at a position equivalent to your current GS salary, or you are eligible for 6 month accelerated promotions up to whatever your current GS level was in the federal agency that you transitioned from.

For example, say someone was a GS 12, Step 2 working for another federal agency in DC on the regular DC payscale:
http://opm.gov/oca/07tables/html/dcb.asp

On that scale he/she would have a $68,993 salary. If you compare that to the USPTO special salary rate table:

http://usptocareers.gov/salaryrates.asp

the lowest rank you could start at on that table with a matched salary is GS 09, Step 9 which is $70,322.

Also, since you were a GS 12 when you left your current government agency, would that make you eligible for 2 six month accelerated promotions to get to the GS 12 level at the PTO, as long as you're making the appropriate production levels? So, basically you could possibly make it from a GS 9 to a GS 12 in 1 year from when you start?

Wondering if anyone here knows anything about this. Appreciate your feedback...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by GuestV on Feb 20^th, 2007, 9:05pm

Haven't visited these boards in a while, and i just quickly looked over the new posts, but here's some info (i was in the june pta class, moved into the TC last bi-week):

- Don't get your hopes up about getting a promotion at 6 months and then again at 1 year -- of course the SPEs interviewing you are going to give you the best case scenario, but it is quite rare that someone actually gets the promotions at the 6 and 12 month marks. It's not that you won't ever work up to it; maybe you can get them at 8 months and 16; everyone has their own learning curve/pace. Although, if you REALLY want the promotions, it's definitely possible.
- I know very little about the bonuses myself, but I believe there are 2 or 3 of them that potentially give you what would be a 5% bonus (or was it 10?) by the end of the year. If I'm not mistaken, one of them is based purely on production (110%, 120%, 130%), and one is based on your workflow.
- For apartments, I'd say most neighborhoods around the pto are decent. If you're looking to live by yourself for under $1000, try some places west of the pto, north of duke st, around 395/VanDorn. Places around Arlington are going to be more expensive and easier to commute by Metrorail (vs driving/MetroBus/DASH), but also keep in mind that you can be subsidized up to ~$110/mo. for public transportation, and the parking garage is $90/mo.
- @jchris: if starting in July, by late October, I'm guessing you will be in production (each class is tweaked a little differently, so I can't say for certain). The trainers/SPEs are pretty good (no problems at all, in fact) about giving leave, and you'll have less and less lectures as you get into the program -- your situation shouldn't be a problem.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Feb 21^st, 2007, 2:45pm

Does anyone know when the next few Patent Training Academies begin? I heard one started yesterday, 2/20. Do any start in March and April and if so what dates? I believe one starts on May 28th and on June 11th.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by JDengineer on Feb 21^st, 2007, 3:02pm

The dates I know of are March 19 and May 29, the 28th is memorial day.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest VI on Feb 23^rd, 2007, 1:03am

I applied for a position as an Examiner through USA Jobs and have just received a Notice of Results (NOR). Does anyone know what this is and what it might say about my progress through the hiring process?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Feb 24^th, 2007, 1:58pm

on 02/23/07 at 01:03:53, Guest VI wrote:

It should say something near the bottom of the message under Rating Code, Rating Message...you could always call the PTO Office of Human Resources and ask them to elaborate if there aren't enough details in your Notice of Results. That's what one of my friends did and he found out that somehow they did not receive his resume, so he had to go online and resubmit everything again.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by jjs on Feb 24^th, 2007, 10:07pm

i have interviewed and applied for an examiner position, just graduated with an MS Mechanical Engineering, and am hoping for an offer.

has anyone heard of people getting an MBA while working as an examiner? i know that there is no reimbursement for business degrees. but do people do part-time MBA programs while working? i'd like to get an MBA, focusing on entrepreneurship... is it worthwhile to have a patent background? it seems like it would be easy to do with the flex scheduling, and i'd probably start business school after training, and leave the PTO after my MBA is done.

i appreciate any input, thanks much!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by kkl on Feb 28^th, 2007, 11:33am

Last time when I read on USPTO website, the agency mentioned about opening satellite offices. Anybody has any ideas about when/where the agency might do it

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by plex on Feb 28^th, 2007, 3:35pm

First stop, New York and California, beyond that, I have no clue. Those are just areas with a particularly dense amount of firms.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Feb 28^th, 2007, 5:07pm

on 02/28/07 at 11:33:05, kkl wrote:

Last time when I read on USPTO website, the agency mentioned about opening satellite offices. Anybody has any ideas about when/where the agency might do it

I've never heard of a timetable for doing this. I'd guess that someplace in southeast or midwest with a lower cost of living than DC, maybe near engineering schools would be more appealing to Uncle Sam than the areas around NY or CA law firms.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by GuestV on Feb 28^th, 2007, 5:48pm

The last time I heard about it, the new office was going to be in Denver...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Mar 2^nd, 2007, 12:08pm

on 02/24/07 at 22:07:46, jjs wrote:

I haven't heard of anyone doing an MBA, but I'm sure if people are able to do law school part time, then it would be possible to do business school part time as well. You're right about them not reimbursing for MBAs currently, at least from what I've heard from friends that work there. They say PTO will only reimburse for law school or related technical training (masters in engineering, etc).

I wouldn't mention your plans of doing an MBA and possibly leaving the PTO after a couple of years. Most SPEs probably wouldn't want to hire someone that they know is already planning to leave after a couple of years from the get-go.

I've considered doing an MBA as well, especially in my current gov't job since they are willing to pay for it, and I would consider doing it too at the PTO if I could somehow get them to pay for it. :)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Mar 2^nd, 2007, 9:34pm

Okay, the first two weeks of the February PTA are over. For those that care, of the 120-some people in the February class, there are about 15 females (mostly in chemical or environmental) and about 15 older/experienced people. As far as I know there is only one JD. Only other comment I have on the rest of the class is that it is very diverse. I'm the only person in my lab with two white American-born parents. The first day consisted entirely of filling out forms. Make sure you do the SF-85 on the computer because they're going to make you change everything to reflect your new address/job. Next day we began in the labs. My lab consists of three columns of cube desks (6-4-6) with 4x4=16 desks at the front of the room in line with the four desk column. Computers are all equipped with two monitors :). Anyway, we "examined" a case and wrote an office action as a group (with no direction from the trainers). We then had a mock interview with some PTO attorney that told us everything we did wrong (which was a lot). The next day we had to do a presentation about the whole process. Five labs did skits that were actually very funny. The other three (including my group) did normal presentations. Since then, everything has been mostly lectures/presentations, lab discussion/exercises, and quizzes. Some lectures are dull (like one on the MPEP where the lecturer went into ridiculously trivial detail) and some are interesting (35 USC 112 1st paragraph). The one "life skills" lecture we've had (about working well with others) was worthless. IMO they should drop those from the program. The quizzes are super easy (you can finish in five minutes if you want) and most likely your trainer isn't going to care what you get (mine doesn't) unless you get zeros. The most important factor in your experience in the PTA is going to be your trainer. The academy is well thought out, but it was not created by professional teachers. There is a lot of "junk" built into the schedule. If you're someone like me that can't stand unproductive activities, you'd be driven nuts if you had a trainer that followed the schedule exactly. It's much more informative to just have Q&A in lab than to do exercises that won't really help you learn. Anyway, I'm not overwhelmed at this point. There are five cases in my docket, but I'm not going to be working on them anytime soon.

In case anyone cares, I'm living in Alexandria about 3.5 miles NW of the PTO. Driving to work is not a problem as I go entirely on surface streets. Parking is plentiful in the garages but PTO employees drive way too fast inside. It wouldn't surprise me if there was an accident per week. Parking cost is only $90 per month (a small price to pay for being able to leave my apartment at 8 a.m. for 8:30 start time) and with 24/7 access you can park and take the metro into DC at your convenience.

Something that sucks is the way the bonuses are handled. For a 2/20 start date, I am not going to be receiving my bonus until the end of March. My first payday is 3/14. The lesson is that you shouldn't expect to receive money immediately after you start.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Mar 5^th, 2007, 12:26pm

Thanks for posting your initial experiences mk1023. Sounds interesting.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by MikeM on Mar 7^th, 2007, 7:02pm

Lab 8 in the house! ;D ;D

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Buckaroo Banzai on Mar 9^th, 2007, 8:09pm

Hi, all --

Anyone have any idea what the wait is like under the new USAStaffing system they're using? I interviewed at the PTO job fair, and apparently my name finally (after several snafus that would've sunk my application if I hadn't been paying attention) ended up on their referral list. Supposedly my application went to the hiring coordinators a few days ago for them to look at. So -- how long can I expect to wait to get a yes or no? At what point should I assume I'm not going to get the gig?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Mar 9^th, 2007, 8:28pm

on 03/09/07 at 20:09:51, Buckaroo Banzai wrote:

The people in human resources/hiring center at the PTO are nice, but to say they're unorganized is an understatement. After talking with people in my lab, I know my experience was the rule not the exception. If you really want to work at the PTO, go ahead and call human resources and check the status of your application.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Buckaroo Banzai on Mar 9^th, 2007, 8:59pm

on 03/09/07 at 20:28:25, mk1023 wrote:

That's for sure! I actually have been talking to a guy at the PHC and one of the hiring coordinators that I met at an earlier career fair (though he's not in the group art for which I'm qualified), but I don't want to pester them to death. Somehow, I can't imagine that repeated emails containing "Did I get the job yet?" "How about now?" "OK, what about.... NOW?" are going to help my case any (of course, that's exactly what I want to do! ;D ).

You're right, everyone I've talked to has been very nice, but certainly frazzled. And this newfangled computerized hiring system doesn't seem to be helping matters for them. If I hadn't been on top of the process, my application would have disappeared into a black hole several times already because of snafus in the system.

I suppose it *was* to much to ask to have an answer after only 4 days of consideration by the H.C.'s... :)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Buckaroo Banzai on Mar 9^th, 2007, 9:05pm

on 03/09/07 at 20:28:25, mk1023 wrote:

That's for sure! I actually have been talking to a guy at PHC and one of the hiring coordinators that I met at an earlier career fair (though he's not in the group art for which I'm qualified), but I don't want to pester them to death. Somehow, I can't imagine that repeated emails containing "Did I get the job yet?" "How about now?" "OK, what about.... NOW?" are going to help my case any (of course, that's exactly what I want to do! ;D ).

You're right, everyone I've talked to has been very nice, but certainly frazzled. And this newfangled computerized hiring system doesn't seem to be helping matters for them. If I hadn't been on top of the process, my application would have disappeared into a black hole several times already because of snafus in the system.

I suppose it *was* to much to ask to have an answer after only 4 days of consideration by the H.C.'s... :)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Mar 14^th, 2007, 6:14am

Buckaroo Banzai, You mentioned that "Supposedly my application went to the hiring coordinators a few days ago for them to look at." How did you find out that your application was already forwarded to the hiring managers/SPEs on the referral list already? I interviewed at the PTO in mid-February, but didn't fill out the online application for the right job announcement until February 23rd. I filled out one on January 31 too based on a SPEs recommendation, but it was an application for the wrong job announcement and because of glitches with their new system it got rejected. I've been told that my application from Feb.23 though is complete, good to go, and I meet the qualifications so it should show up on the referral list, but I'm not sure if that has been forwarded to supervisors yet. I don't think it has b/c I have a friend who interviewed about the same time as me, but he filled out the right application by January 31, and he received a formal offer about 2 weeks ago, about the same day that his online application showed up on the hiring managers/supervisors referral list.

So to answer your question, based on my friend's experience, it shouldn't be much longer after your application/name shows up on the referral list to the hiring managers that you should be receiving an email saying something along these lines:

"Your names have come up on a referral list from USA Jobs and we would like to reccomend you for employment in Technology Center ****X." And then it will request that you fill out those additional SF and OF security forms to fax in within 48 hours. And then you should have a formal offer within a few days after you send in those forms if everything is good.

Title: Need Housing?
Post by Frontier House on Mar 14^th, 2007, 10:24am

Any new examiners looking for a convenient/affordable place to live? Springfield house w/ 3BR for rent, located next to metro and mall, only 10-15 drive to USPTO. House is newly rennovated.

please email Frontier dot House at gmail dot com if interested!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Mar 14^th, 2007, 3:32pm

on 03/09/07 at 20:28:25, mk1023 wrote:

Sounds like typical government hiring. I've been at my current federal job for several years and never even had an employment physical.. I don't like needles or doctors offices so I never volunteered, and they never asked.:) Do you have to get blood drawn (or any other needles) for patent office jobs?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by JDengineer on Mar 14^th, 2007, 6:45pm

Daven -

You are joking, right? Why on earth would the PTO need to draw blood of new hires? I don't even think they do a pre-employment drug screen.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Buckaroo on Mar 14^th, 2007, 8:30pm

on 03/14/07 at 06:14:31, mandejapan wrote:

I found out by calling around and generally making a nuisance of myself, mainly because I twice got a notice that I had to fill out the candidate questionnaire, despite the fact that I had already filled it out. I ended up calling the OPM, who told me I was on the list. I don't know if my being tenacious had anything to do with it, but I got informal notification this past Monday (3/12) -- I should start in the April 16 class, assuming the Request for Hire is authorized by the Director (though I assume that's just a formality), and the HR office gets my official transcripts.

I think the referral list is wayyy behind. My application was submitted on February 12, but when I called to check up on things on 2/28, they still had not received the first list from the system. Things seem to be rolling now, though.

I'm stoked. I'll be a *little* nervous until I get the formal offer, though. :)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Mar 15^th, 2007, 5:34am

Thanks for sharing Buckaroo. That's helpful. So since you submitted your online application on Feb. 12 and didn't get the informal notification email telling you to submit those additional forms until Mar. 12, that means it takes about 1 month for our online applications to start showing up on the hiring managers' referral list. I think that timing sounds about right currently b/c my friend had submitted his online application on like Feb. 1-2 and he got his notification email on Feb. 28 (wednesday). He then faxed in his forms within the 48hrs, and had a formal offer over the phone the following Tuesday(Mar.6). So, if you faxed in your forms this past monday, you should expect a phone call by no later than early next week...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Mar 15^th, 2007, 6:26am

What are people's experiencies/opinions on starting as a GS-9 vs. GS-7? I once heard that the burn out rate for those who start at GS-9 is much higher. Is it very difficult to start at a GS-9 when one has no prior examining experience? With the new, more extensive/time-consuming Patent Training Academy are people that are starting at GS-9s still able to make the 6 month accelerated promotion to GS-11? Or is that rare?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Mar 15^th, 2007, 9:33am

on 03/15/07 at 05:34:34, mandejapan wrote:

So, if you faxed in your forms this past monday, you should expect a phone call by no later than early next week...

If everything works perfectly that'd be reasonable. That step took about a month for me.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Mar 15^th, 2007, 12:13pm

on 03/15/07 at 09:33:05, mk1023 wrote:

If everything works perfectly that'd be reasonable. That step took about a month for me.

Wow. The step from when you faxed in your SF/OF forms until when they gave you the formal offer took a full month? That was when they were under the JARS system though, and you were also working everything out to get your transcript adjudicated so you can work as an EE?

What's crazy though is for my friend who received the formal offer over the phone on March 6, they wanted to bring him on board to start the March 19 Patent Training Academy. That means they were going to process all of his stuff in less than 2 weeks! He chose to go with the April start date though.

Another question: What's the rule on overtime? How long must you work at PTO before you can start working and getting paid for OT? I heard there is a new rule where you can't claim OT until after you finish the PTA, so 8 months after you start then? Thanks...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Mar 15^th, 2007, 2:58pm

Quote:

Yep that step took a month. Those issues were a factor, but HR really didn't have their act together. My caseworker didn't know I hadn't received a formal offer.

Quote:

Another question: What's the rule on overtime? How long must you work at PTO before you can start working and getting paid for OT? I heard there is a new rule where you can't claim OT until after you finish the PTA, so 8 months after you start then? Thanks...

The latest info I have is that it is permissible but not really encouraged. Also, OT must be approved by your trainer (they have complete discretion). My trainer is saying he'll consider letting us work OT/comp time after four months.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Mar 15^th, 2007, 3:45pm

Who are you guys listing for the three required references for the application? I'm not sure I would want to list my current supervisor. Not that he would say anything negative.. just that I wouldn't want him to know what I'm up to in case things fall through.:) thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Mar 15^th, 2007, 3:54pm

on 03/15/07 at 06:26:22, mandejapan wrote:

I haven't applied yet and would like to hear opinions about the same thing. Given how expensive the area is, I would probably accept gs-9 realizing I'll end up working extra hard to beat the learning curve. If you would rather go in and do the minimum number of hours, it may be a good idea to ramp up more slowly by starting at gs-7. The work day goes by fast when you're very busy so I doubt I would get burned out. Then again, I have no idea what it's like up there.:)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Mar 15^th, 2007, 5:34pm

A balanced disposal (BD) is a New Count (N) and a Disposal Count (D). In the TC, BD=(N+D)/2 whereas in training BD=(2N+D)/3. For 100% success, you need:
BD=Hours worked/(Expectancy)=x*Hours/(GS12 expectancy)

GS-5: x=.55
GS-7: x=.7
GS-9: x=.8
GS-11: x=.9
GS-12: x=1

There isn't a huge difference between GS-7 and GS-9 production requirements.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by anonyguest on Mar 16^th, 2007, 5:27am

on 03/15/07 at 17:34:30, mk1023 wrote:

Newbies won't be getting disposal counts for a long time, and the dockets i've seen coming out of the training academy are anemic. Eight months on the job and no docket it pretty sad, meaning lots of work coming out of training. Getting a promotion in the academy or shortly thereafter might be more of a curse then a blessing with no disposals when the amendments start to flow.

I started as a gs9, so when the promotions have come i've had a nice mature docket to help cushion the production bumps.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Mar 16^th, 2007, 2:17pm

Does everyone have to go through the academy? mechanical?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Mar 16^th, 2007, 7:18pm

I'm pretty sure everyone has to go through the PTA unless maybe if you've been a patent examiner before. They hire people now based on PTA start dates.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Satoman on Mar 18^th, 2007, 6:00am

Walt is awesome! If you are lucky to get him as your trainer you will learn alot.

:)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Mar 18^th, 2007, 6:16pm

on 03/18/07 at 06:00:31, Satoman wrote:

Walt is awesome! If you are lucky to get him as your trainer you will learn alot.

:)

Hi Satoman...are you in the PTA currently? When did you start? What Technology Center, or Art Unit are you going to be working in? Why is Walt an awesome trainer? :) Thanks for your input...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by em on Mar 20^th, 2007, 3:42pm

on 03/15/07 at 15:45:57, daven wrote:

Who are you guys listing for the three required references for the application?

I just got an offer[1] and I'm pretty sure the fact that I even applied to the PTO is news to two of my three references[2]. Take that as you will.

For reference, I initially applied back in December and interviewed in January, but wasn't able to get all my forms in before the switch to the new hiring system (which necessitated a call to clear things up). Then the dates on the forms weren't current enough, which I discovered after calling in again a couple weeks ago. After I sent in the re-dated forms, however, it was only a week and a half until I got a firm offer. The hiring people were nice; they just seemed a bit overloaded (as I'm sure I'll be soon enough).

[1] With a June 11th starting date. Coming from academia, losing the summer is going to hurt. ;)
[2] Not that they would give me bad reviews, of course!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by em on Mar 20^th, 2007, 3:58pm

And a question: how long are wait lists for decent studio/single-occupancy apartments in the Alexandria region? On a related note, is it wise to try to get a short lease at the first place that's livable and try to work your way into a better apartment later or just do all the legwork/waiting up front?

Apologies if those are stupid questions. Although I spent some time as a kid in Chicago, I've only experienced renting and single-living in small cities (30,000-100,000 pop.).

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Mar 20^th, 2007, 5:43pm

I don't really think there's a shortage of apartments. The crappy high rises all have move-in special signs out. Here's how I approached moving here:
1) Researched prices/locations with
a) craigslist
b) realtor.com (rent condos)
c) apartmentshowcase.com/apartmentratings.com (apartment complexes)
2) Arrived on Thursday night
3) Arranged to see a condo I saw on realtor.com Friday. Filed application
4) Signed lease on Wednesday.

Driving to work isn't a problem if you have a car. There is plenty of bus coverage if you don't.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Mar 23^rd, 2007, 11:56am

What are the best/hottest Art Units or Technology Centers to be working as an examiner at the USPTO currently? (based on: interesting art area, lots of patent applications coming in, good SPE, etc)

Interested in what everyone thinks overall and what art units people would recommend applicants apply for...I appreciate any input/insight.

My educational background is BS Biomedical Engineering (concentration mechanical engineering, premed) from Johns Hopkins, and Master in Mechanical Engineering (concentration in robotics/controls) from JHU too. Have about 4 years of experience working as an engineer for the DOD mainly with biological agent detection systems...

Thanks!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Mar 24^th, 2007, 10:08am

I guess the ones that seem the most interesting to me are the Medical Instruments, Diagnostic Equipment, Treatment Devices, Surgery & Surgical Supplies in 3730:
http://www.uspto.gov/web/info/3700.htm#3730

Here are all the Technology Centers:
http://www.uspto.gov/web/info/pat-tech.htm

But I'm wondering if some current or ex-examiners can comment on some of their experiences based on the art unit they have worked in, or are working in. (level of difficulty based on the amount of time you're given per case, if it's interesting (subjective), what you think the attrition/retention rate in your group is perhaps based on the amount of primary/junior examiners, etc)

Appreciate your help. Feel free to PM me too...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by freshexaminer on Mar 26^th, 2007, 11:40am

I have been reading this forum for the past couple weeks, and it has been really helpful for getting inside information about working at the PTO. I spoke with an SPE at a career fair at my university and then had an on-campus interview with them. They told me that they were highly recommending me for hire. I put in my application on USA Jobs that day. That was just about a month ago. I just received an email that says that I am "tentatively qualified" for hire and that I need to fill out a Candidate Questionaire.

Does anyone know what step this in the process? How much longer until I can expect to get an official offer?

Also, I have been looking around for apartments in the area, and they are all really expensive. I was wondering if anyone here could give some advice/opinions on apartments. I am looking for a 1 bed 1 bath easily accessible to the Metro.

Thanks for any help anyone can give!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Mar 26^th, 2007, 5:09pm

on 03/26/07 at 11:40:18, freshexaminer wrote:

Does anyone know what step this in the process? How much longer until I can expect to get an official offer?

PTO HR is not particularly efficient. This process could take days or weeks. Don't be afraid to call them.

Quote:

Also, I have been looking around for apartments in the area, and they are all really expensive. I was wondering if anyone here could give some advice/opinions on apartments. I am looking for a 1 bed 1 bath easily accessible to the Metro.

1 BR/BA near metro describes about six million apartments. Are you looking to live in Alexandria? You could save a few bucks living further away if you're willing to add time to your commute. You should also consider living along a bus route (see dashbus.com). What are you looking to spend?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by jimmmafyzzzz1 on Mar 27^th, 2007, 9:20am

Does anybody know how long it takes to get fired from the PTO for low production? I heard that you could get fired if you’re under 90 %, is that true? Are they more lenient with people in the PTA training academy? I just started in Nov and am having a hard time meeting my GS-9 production goals. In fact, right now I’m only around 50 % and we’ve been on production for several bi-weeks (maybe 3 or 4). I’m working extremely hard and am making progress (continuously improving), but 100 % production still seems a ways off. Anybody have any advice? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by someexaminer on Mar 27^th, 2007, 2:49pm

on 03/27/07 at 09:20:52, jimmmafyzzzz1 wrote:

It sounds like you're doing fine. They don't expect you to get up 100% right away. I just checked my old time logs and it took me a little over a quarter to get up to 100%. As long as you show that you're improving from biweek to biweek and get to at least 95% at 12 months from hire, you'll be retained. You'll have to be at over 100% before your promotion though. I also started at GS9 by the way.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Mar 27^th, 2007, 3:26pm

I guess this is as good a place as any to ask this question. For those people that got bonuses, when you got the bonus was it taxed at a significantly higher rate that you'll end up at. The first pay period my was withholding 29.39% of the total amount. This last pay period (with bonus) they withheld 41.49%. It doesn't make sense to me that I'm being taxed at that rate.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Mar 27^th, 2007, 4:10pm

mk1023,

Yeah, that's normal in the government. Awards/bonuses are you usually taxed at about 40% but don't worry, you'll get some of that back at tax time next year. Same thing happened to me when I got my first year sign on bonus with the federal government, and I think it's about the same for any award/bonus you receive.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Mar 27^th, 2007, 5:23pm

After a little research it seems that supplemental wages are taxed differently than regular wages. I'd rather have the money now than wait for the tax refund, so I think I'll claim a few more allowances.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by jimmmafyzzzz1 on Mar 29^th, 2007, 1:35pm

Thanks someexaminer, that's a big help. I do really like the job and I'd like to stay here. I will say that production requirements, however, aren't a joke. This is not a trivial job to learn and it's challenging. I have a very good background for it (several degrees from good schools and lots of experience in engineering in academia, industry and at national labs) and it's tough for me to get my work done. I like it much better than anything I've done before, but it's not easy. I'm only making a big deal about this because I've read posting in which people describe examining as easy and/or repetitive. Maybe after a while, but definitely not after 4 months...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by BLDYWOG on Mar 31^st, 2007, 12:11am

Don't kid yourself into a false sense of security. Check your offer letter, you are career conditional for the first year. That means, you are on a one year probation! They do not want to retain anyone who does not make the numbers. I came in as GS11 and had some personal issues. They were getting ready to get rid of me at the end of year. Fortunetely, I transfered to another non examining dept. in PTO. This was back in 1991, things may have changed now. Good Luck!!!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by sfs on Apr 2^nd, 2007, 11:37am

That seems strange. Wouldn't they demote you before they would fire you? I mean, if you were making an honest effort, but you were just having trouble getting up to production in the first year. After all, they start people will all kinds of different production requirements.

How did they let you know they were going to fire you?

What are the non examining units at the PTO? Do you have to have a JD to work in them?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Katrina on Apr 3^rd, 2007, 6:58pm

I just applied to the USPTO on March 27th and yesterday (April 2nd) I received the "Notice of Results". It basically said I was tentatively qualified, but I had to fill out the candidate questionnaire (which I had already done once) within 48 hours to be eligible for the cut-off date for which I applied. I did that yesterday.

How long do you think it will take, pending interview, etc., to start the PTA?

I am finishing up my bachelor's in Human Biology (with a good enough GPA to start at GS 7) on June 28th, what do you think my chances are at getting a job?

I did here that they plan to hire 1200 examiners a year through 2010, and there were even commercials here in Lansing, MI advertising for the position...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by freshexaminer on Apr 4^th, 2007, 11:50pm

Katrina,

I am in the same position. I initially applied on Feb 22, got the NOR on Mar 23 and filled out the candidate questionnaire the same day. I still haven't heard anything.

I already had a very favorable interview with an SPE at an on campus career fair, so I am not sure what is going on. He keeps telling me that I will most likely be hired, but nothing is happening as of yet.

Let me know if you get any further along in the process, I would love to know of how someone else is progressing through the system.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by wizfan83 on Apr 5^th, 2007, 7:58am

Hi guys. Good to hear that there are many in the same boat as me. I had applied online May 2006 (which is when I graduated, B.S. in Mech. E.). I got an email in February 2007 asking me to come in for an interview. I interviewed on-site in early March 2007. The interview went well, but I was asked to reapply via USAJOBS because my original application had expired. I reapplied, and got the same email many of you seem to have received -- "tentatively qualified". I was asked to submit the Candidate Questionnaire, and I did early this week. And now I am sort of in limbo (what next)?

Anyway, I would like to keep in touch with you guys who are in the same boat as I am, so we know what to expect over the next few weeks. Maybe we will even be entering the same training session.

As for those who already work at USPTO, thanks for your input on this board. It is really helpful. I have a simple question -- Would you advise a young engineer to work there? Or does it heavily matter on the personality / work style of the engineer? I am a hard worker, but I don't want to commit career suicide. It sounds like the USPTO has crazy standards if you want to stick around there. And I also heard that once you are there, it can be difficult to get back into the "lab" setting.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by wizfan83 on Apr 5^th, 2007, 8:01am

Sidenote -- yes, I did fill out the Candidate Questionnaire within 48 hours.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Katrina on Apr 5^th, 2007, 8:07am

Freshexaminer, what is your major?

I really want this job... as stressful as it sounds, it actually sounds like something I would like to do. It also doesn't hurt that this job pays a whole lot more than any lab I would be able to get in to (by atleast 10,000 yearly). That's what happens when you plan to go to med school and then change your mind when it is too late to change a pointless major. Who knows, I may even consider law school.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by wizfan83 on Apr 5^th, 2007, 8:20am

on 03/26/07 at 11:40:18, freshexaminer wrote:

If you are looking to save some $, I would highly advise against getting a 1 bedroom. You might be better off with roommates. I'm currently renting a room about 25 miles north of DC and if I get a position at USPTO, I am probably going to try to get a place closer to Alexandria. If you are at all interested, let me know. Of course, we have to get the position first :)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by freshexaminer on Apr 5^th, 2007, 1:06pm

Katrina,

I am finishing up a Masters in Optics, and I have a BA in Physics and CS. I think I am being considered in Optics and CS I believe. I am really nervous about this. It would be so nice to know I have an offer for sure.

wizfan83,

We should keep in contact. It would be nice to start out with a roommate I think. There are definitely plusses and minuses to it. I do not know anyone in the DC area, so it may be nice to live with someone who knows their way around. I will be kind of coming there as a total east coast newbie.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Frontier House on Apr 5^th, 2007, 1:54pm

3 br house in perfect location for new examiners!

1500/month for 3BR, 1 Den, 2BA, fireplace, large fenced yard, newly renovated. 1 block from Springfield Mall. Bus across the street to Springfield Metro ( about 1 mile walk). 8 miles/10-15 min drive to US Patent Trademark Office (USPTO).

Please Email: Frontier dot House at gmail dot com if interested!!!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Katrina on Apr 6^th, 2007, 12:25pm

Okay, so I just realized that my major (biology) is listed under two different departments of the Patent Office that is in USAjobs.gov. I have already applied to the one located in the Biotechnology and Organic Chemistry Department. However, today I noticed that biology is listed along with "Chemical Engineering/Material Science Technology Center, Mechanical Engineering/Transportation and Electronic Commerce Technology Center, and Mechanical Engineering/Manufacturing Products and Designs Technology Center." Should I apply to both or will multiple applications just end up at the same person. I think I would actually prefer the second category because it has to deal with macrobiology (maybe surgical related patents?) rather than microbiology... what does anyone think?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by freshexaminer on Apr 6^th, 2007, 1:07pm

From my impression, things seem to be VERY sub-divided at the PTO. I would apply to both positions if I were you.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest409 on Apr 9^th, 2007, 5:11pm

on 03/31/07 at 00:11:31, BLDYWOG wrote:

Could you tell me how you went about transferring to other departments in the PTO? Are you still with PTO? If so, how do you like working at your department? I've been an examiner for a year now and its not really what I want to do. I was a programmer before so I am thinking about transferring to their tech department or others. Thanks for your help :)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by em on Apr 16^th, 2007, 9:30am

on 04/13/07 at 11:25:42, jbird wrote:

I guess my question is can they start me that quick, and is there a chance that they will withdraw the offer in a few weeks.

My impression is that they can indeed start you out that quick--my three-month lead time is an exception. The new hire package seems to assume a start date of a week or two, at most, after receipt.

I also find it unlikely that they'll withdraw the offer.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by newPTOemp on Apr 17^th, 2007, 11:18am

I'm sure this question has been asked before, but I'll go ahead anyways.

My start date at the patent office is May 29. I'm not from the area and am looking for an apt or townhouse in Alexandria. Are there any apartment complexes anyone recommends? Or, the opposite, are there any places to avoid?

Thanks -

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Apr 17^th, 2007, 6:36pm

on 04/17/07 at 11:18:44, newPTOemp wrote:

There are so many complexes that there's no point in telling you which you should avoid. Go to apartmentratings.com and see the place before you agree to live there.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guestt on Apr 17^th, 2007, 6:37pm

I got the job offer with PTO but hesitate moving to DC since house there so expensive. Anybody knows PTO start regional office in Texas anytime soon ?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on Apr 17^th, 2007, 7:23pm

on 04/17/07 at 18:37:24, Guestt wrote:

I got the job offer with PTO but hesitate moving to DC since house there so expensive. Anybody knows PTO start regional office in Texas anytime soon ?

Why did you go through the hassle to apply if you don't want to live there? I agree with the housing problem.. that's why I didn't apply.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Apr 17^th, 2007, 8:06pm

Unless you have a family I don't think housing cost is a big deal. Get roommates or live in a studio if you need to save money that badly. In the long run you could hotel and live in another state if you want to.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guestt on Apr 17^th, 2007, 8:06pm

well, I'm experienced engineer and I don't have any problem getting job offer, it was easy for me and my wife (she lost her job at tech firm) that why we intended to move at first. I like the job and the secure its offer but moving there is something we don't want to and if I know it will open regional office in Texas or so might take it and trasfer later

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guestkl on Apr 17^th, 2007, 8:13pm

I didn't have any problem getting job offer with PTO since both my wife and I are experience engineer. My wife lost her job at tech firm and that why we applied and thinking moving there. Now she got new job and what I read about PTO is that it might open regional office either in Texas or Colorado. We like the job secure and benefit its offer but we have family with 2 kids and to live in the nice neighbor like we have now, the house there might be in $600K range compare $300K in Texas. I'm thinking that if it open the office in Texas next two years or so, we might take it and ask for transfer later
Anyway, any inside news would be appreciated

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by puzzled_guest on Apr 18^th, 2007, 9:51am

Hello,

Someone from HR told me that Center X is interested in my application. No one from X has interviewed me, so I have no idea what I would do. I think I'd be better suited for Center Y, and I only applied to Center Y, but no one from Y has contacted me. I'd like to speak with someone, but I've only had contact with HR... Should I try contacting some hiring contacts to get a better idea of what I would do for X, or to see if Y is even interested in me? ???

Any advice would be much appreciated!!!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guestNewExaminer on May 3^rd, 2007, 11:38am

It looks like I will be beginning the training academy on May 29th. I have two minor questions about the office, if anyone can help.

1) Are camera phones allowed on-premises?
2) How long does it take to get your own office? I know you start out sharing office space... is it a matter of making Primary, or is it something you have to wait 5 or 10 years for?

Thanks!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by ExaminerJr on May 3^rd, 2007, 7:08pm

repost

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on May 3^rd, 2007, 7:46pm

You can bring your camera phone no problem. As for your second question I can't really give a complete answer as I'm still in the training academy. The junior examiners I've seen in the TC all share an office with one other person. One thing you have to understand about the PTO is that they are hiring a ton of people. A bunch of people are hoteling, but that number is less than the number of hires.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by jbird on May 4^th, 2007, 11:21am

I have been offered a job at the USPTO, and am wondering if anyone has any recommendations on affordable daycare. I'm not sure where we'll be living, but will gravitate toward area where affordable daycare can be had.

Thanks

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on May 4^th, 2007, 6:45pm

on 05/04/07 at 11:21:36, jbird wrote:

Have you looked into the USPTO's daycare facility?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by jbird on May 4^th, 2007, 9:23pm

Yes, I called the PTO daycare facility. I think it was about $3700 a month for my three children. They might have to stay in my car in the parking garage while I work.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by etoainshrdlu on May 6^th, 2007, 7:52am

I have a PhD in Molecular and Cell Biology. I applied several months ago with the USPTO and have heard that they still haven't hired any GS-11 Biologists. Does anyone have any idea if they will? ???

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest01 on May 6^th, 2007, 8:49am

Not likely. A friend who works there recently told me that they were pretty much finished with 2007 hiring for biotech. Apparently things are slightly different if you have a pure chemistry degree.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by ExaminerJr on May 8^th, 2007, 1:49pm

I finally got my official verbal offer today. I start the 29th. I'm very excited! ;D

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by fired_me on May 8^th, 2007, 10:04pm

Just got fired from the USPTO. For those of you just signing up, know that it isn't easy to survive there past the probationary period. Also, know that they will fire you if you come in at a higher leve (GS-11) and can't make production. Better to start at a lower level even if the salary sucks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by ExaminerJr on May 9^th, 2007, 1:54pm

From what I have read in researching this job, it seems like there are people who love it and people who hate it. Since I have always had an interest in law and am not in love with engineering, I hope that I am in the former group.

Fingers crossed!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest123zsxdf4567js on May 9^th, 2007, 2:22pm

Don't take the job or promotion if you can't make production. Wait to "learn the ropes" extremely well, and you will be fine. It comes down to "making more money now and losing your job in a year" or "waiting to learn what's needed and staying" I may be wrong, but it seems to me greedy people with little experience tend to get fired. Understand the job and your abilities.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest123zsxdf4567js on May 9^th, 2007, 2:23pm

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by sli on May 9^th, 2007, 6:23pm

I wasn't greedy. I took a 5 % paycut to go to the PTO from my old engineering job. Luckily, I got it back w/out a problem. I agree about being careful about promotions. They can kill you if you're not careful. watch out for the 6 month promotion just after you get there.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by BSEEGRAD on May 9^th, 2007, 11:15pm

I have read that during the first 2-3 months you start your schedule 7:30 - 5 pm and every other friday off. So, what is all done during that time? I have read that you attend lot of lectures and etc. Is that true?

What is a lot of lecture? Can some break down a day ? Or are you given lectures during the whole 9 hours.

Also, do you get your own room? or are you in a cubicle?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on May 10^th, 2007, 6:05am

Week 2: February 26 – March 2

(Day 5) Monday, February 26

8:30-9:00 Lab Discussion Trainers Labs
9:00-9:30 Timesheet Processing DKS Large Lecture
9:30-10:00 PTOS - Introduction PTOS DKS Large Lecture
10:00-10:30 Examiner Expectations Trainers/Examiners Labs
10:30-11:00 Trainer Expectations Trainers Labs
11:00-11:30 Overview of 8-Month Program DKS Large Lecture
11:30-12:00 Director’s Expectations DKS Large Lecture
12:00-12:30 Lunch
12:30-1:00 SF85 HR Labs
1:00-3:00 35 USC 101 - Introduction Will Grant DKS Large Lecture
3:00-4:00 35 USC 101 – Introduction: Exercise Trainers Labs
4:00-4:30 Quiz: 35 USC 101 Trainers/Examiners Labs
4:30-5:00 Quiz Review Trainers Labs

(Day 6) Tuesday, February 27

8:30-9:00 Health Benefit Forms Trainers Labs
9:15-10:15 Working Well: DKS Large Lecture
10:15-11:00 Recruitment and Bonus DKS Large Lecture
11:00-11:30 AIS Overview ITRPs DKS Large Lecture
11:30-12:00 Lunch
12:00-12:30 SF85 Labs
12:30-1:30 eDan - Part 1 ITRPs Labs
1:30-3:00 Reading for Understanding DKS Large Lecture
3:00-4:00 Reading for Understanding: Trainers Lab Exercises
4:00-4:30 Quiz: Reading for Understanding Labs
4:30-5:00 Quiz Review Labs

(Day 7) Wednesday, February 28

8:30-9:30 Computer Basics ITRPs Labs
9:30-10:00 Computer Security Awareness - CBT ITRPs Labs
10:00-11:00 MPEP Insight – Part 1 ITRPs Labs
11:30-12:30 MPEP Overview DKS Large Lecture
12:30-1:00 Lunch
1:00-1:30 SF85 Labs
1:30-2:00 Quiz: MPEP Overview Labs
2:00-2:30 Quiz Review Labs
2:30-4:00 35 USC 112 - 1st Paragraph DKS Large Lecture
4:00-5:00 35 USC 112 - 1st Paragraph Trainers Labs
Exercises

(Day 8) Thursday, March 1

8:30-10:30 35 USC 112 - 1st Paragraph: Trainers Lab Exercises
10:30-11:00 Quiz : 35 USC 112 - 1st Paragraph Trainers Labs
11:00-11:30 Quiz Review Trainers Labs
11:30-12:00 Lunch
12:00-12:30 SF85 Labs
12:30-2:30 USPTO Tour TBD TBD
3:00-3:30 Examiner’s Role M DKS Large Lecture
3:30-4:00 Examiner Performance Action Plan (PAP) DKS Large Lecture
4:00-5:00 PAP Exercises Trainers Labs

(Day 9) Friday, March 2

8:30-10:00 Types of Applications <Academy Trainer> DKS Large Lecture
10:00-10:30 Quiz Preparation Labs
10:30-11:00 Quiz: Types of Applications Trainers Labs
11:00-11:30 Quiz Review Trainers Labs
11:30-12:00 Lunch
12:00-12:30 Independent Reading
12:30-1:30 Welcome – Commissioner for Patents DKS Large Lecture
1:30-2:30 ****ual Harassment Prevention DKS Large Lecture
2:30-4:00 Claim Interpretation - Part 1 DKS Large Lecture
4:00-5:00 Claim Interpretation – Part 1: Exercises Labs
-----------------
If you want to see more sample schedules let me know. Independent Reading=lunch. During the first few weeks there's a lot of fluff time where there's not much to do. 1.5 hour lunches are common. That changes once you start to examine cases.

Yeah you're going to be in a cube.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by ExaminerJr on May 10^th, 2007, 10:41am

on 05/10/07 at 06:05:43, mk1023 wrote:

Yeah you're going to be in a cube.

Just for the training period, or afterwards as well?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Frontier House on May 15^th, 2007, 10:57am

Any new Examiners looking for affordable and convenient housing?

$1400/3BR, 1 Den, 2BA, separate LR/DR, large Kitchen, Fireplace, large Tool
Shed on fenced Yard, newly renovated, no basement.
1 block from Springfield Mall. 1 mile to Franconia-Springfield Metro.
8 miles to US Patent Trademark Office (USPTO).

please email frontier dot house at gmail dot com, if interested!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by gg on May 15^th, 2007, 6:57pm

Worked there for 2 yrs. It's a ok job, but it doesn't pay nearly as well as they'll have you believe when you interview. You can go to a law firm after a year and make double w/out increasing your workload very much.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by em on May 16^th, 2007, 11:40am

on 05/15/07 at 18:57:59, gg wrote:

Do you mean as a patent agent? The salaries I've seen for agents (with ~1 year experience) are in the $60K-$80K range. Am I looking in the wrong places?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by IPending on May 17^th, 2007, 12:33am

Especially PTO geared.

Prices:
-$950 (6 month lease)
-1100 (less than 6 months)

Location: Very very close. Walk, bus, or drive to both PTO and metro.
Utilities: included

About your bedroom:
-Fairly large, estimated at 12x12
-High Vaulted ceilings
-High mounted ceiling fan
-Private bathroom with tub
-Walk-in closet
-Furnished if necessary

Quality of life: exceptional
-only one other very quiet housemate (which is me, also PTO) to share a whole 3 level townhouse with.
-Private driveway parking
-Professional entire house cleaning every month, including your room and bathroom.
-In house washer/dryer.
-Very exclusive and safe townhouse community with houses worth well over half a million dollars.
-Very isolated from the rest of Alexandria by tracks and trees to the north, river/highway to the south, and running trails to the east (1 mile) and west (2 miles).
-I've went on several night jogs at 11pm without a problem at all, and I'm not a huge guy.

Date of availability: July 21, 2007. Flexible starting date afterwards.

Me: Fairly quiet and driven. PTO worker. Respectful. (age: early 20s)
Potential housemate: PTO worker, IP career focused. Preferrably quiet and driven. Respectful.

We can conduct a trial month at 1100 and if things seem to work out between us I'm willing to switch over to the 6 month lease and the difference in price from the first month will be paid back to you.

Showings are available.

email: Townes dot Property at gmail dot com

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by IPending on May 17^th, 2007, 11:25am

In addition to the above posted listing,

I need someone to take over my apt lease which ends June 30th. It's empty and available to move into today. The price is only $750. The complex is called Foxchase and has free shuttle that takes you directly to King st. metro, which is also where the PTO is located. Please email if interested.

townes dot property at gmail dot com.

Thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on May 17^th, 2007, 5:00pm

on 05/16/07 at 11:40:48, em wrote:

Do you mean as a patent agent? The salaries I've seen for agents (with ~1 year experience) are in the $60K-$80K range. Am I looking in the wrong places?

Depending on which GS level you started at.. that could be double!:)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Sharpe on May 17^th, 2007, 6:58pm

I also have been waiting for months for feedback following my PTO application (molecular biology, Ph.D., USPTO registered).
A previous poster said that no more biotech examiners are to be hired in '07- a pretty devastating rumor for some of us.
Can anyone corroborate this?

Perhaps we can guage a timeline for all the nail-biters: for some of you starting now, when did you first apply, and what field of work?

What might be the ratio of GS-9s to GS-11s coming in?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by biotech24 on May 17^th, 2007, 8:29pm

You heard correctly, biotech is not hiring. I would recommend applying in the organic chemistry area if you feel like you would be comfortable with that subject matter, they are hiring. Mostly GS-11's seem to be coming in.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by gg on May 20^th, 2007, 9:25pm

"Do you mean as a patent agent? The salaries I've seen for agents (with ~1 year experience) are in the $60K-$80K range. Am I looking in the wrong places? "

Getting $95 in Seattle. That's not quite double what I was making in VA, but it's close.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by slog on May 20^th, 2007, 10:32pm

Those of you coming in should check out the government accountability office (gao) report on the pto from 2005. In it they explain how and why the pto has a lot of trouble getting people to work there past the two year probationary period. The retention rates for the PTO are pretty dismal. I've heard that it's been even worse since they started the training academy, but I'm not certain about that. Anybody know?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by ExaminerJr on May 21^st, 2007, 9:11am

on 05/20/07 at 22:32:24, slog wrote:

I've heard that it's been even worse since they started the training academy, but I'm not certain about that. Anybody know?

Apparently, some of that is because college students are taking the job as an easy way to make money for eight months without working, while searching for the job they "really want." So I'm sure that skews the numbers quite a bit.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by lsi on May 21^st, 2007, 10:22pm

Could be, I guess... but google "problems at uspto" and you'll get a bunch of articles that seem to suggest the problem is more widespread. In particular, I'm thinking of the one entitled "Patent Examiners Battle Stress" on FCW News. See:

"Stern said that strained employee/manager relations at USPTO stem from managers who "don't respect the input and advice they get from their employees." A related cause is patent examiners' discontent with what they say are unreasonable production quotas that examiners must work overtime to meet. "This is a legal sweatshop here," Stern said. "The truth is we could do a better job with more time."

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by daven on May 22^nd, 2007, 3:31pm

on 05/21/07 at 22:22:14, lsi wrote:

This is something I'm still not sure of.. Does "voluntary overtime" mean you're working unpaid overtime?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest_Examiner on May 22^nd, 2007, 4:15pm

Yes - Voluntary overtime is unpaid overtime

GS-5 and GS-7's are barred from working voluntary overtime

GS-9 and up are allowed to work voluntary overtime if they wish

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on May 22^nd, 2007, 5:17pm

on 05/21/07 at 22:22:14, lsi wrote:

"This is a legal sweatshop here," Stern said. "The truth is we could do a better job with more time."

I don't believe Stern is with POPA anymore so this quote is a bit dated.

POPA makes no bones about being an employee advocacy group and generally leaves Dudas and his managers to advocate for the the plus side of the PTO. I am not going to suggest that one side or the other is right most of the time, but you aren't reading the whole story in that article.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by gsfo on May 22^nd, 2007, 7:44pm

Why is anybody barred from working voluntary unpaid overtime? Is that a result of some union vs. management backroom negotiation?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by gsfo on May 22^nd, 2007, 7:55pm

What about the PTO trying to prosecute people for larceny based on their work and attendance sheets? POPA (check their wesite at popa dot org) has an article this month about that. They say that a pregnant woman who was making 130 % production was prosecuted in a virginia court by the pto for larceny because she came into work a few hours late. Did that really happen?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by p on May 22^nd, 2007, 8:13pm

This is the article:

Examiner Not Guilty of Criminal
Time Reporting Charges
A Virginia jury acquitted a former patent examiner of
criminal larceny charges for allegedly collecting pay for
work not done. The charges were based on discrepancies
between the examiner’s turnstile records and her time
sheets. Following a two-and-a-half day trial, the jury
returned the verdict after deliberating only 15 minutes. The
jury foreman later apologized to the examiner, saying the
jury was sorry she’d had to go through the ordeal.
The Department of Commerce Inspector General’s
Office (IG), with USPTO assistance, initiated the criminal
investigation against the examiner, who holds a medical
degree, a law degree, and who consistently produced at a
level above 130 percent for the agency. For three years
(2003-2005) the employee was awarded outstanding job
evaluations with commendable quality by two supervisors.
Then she got a new supervisor and her work life took a
decided turn for the worse. Difficulties with new supervisor
Kevin Sirmons began the first biweek after he took over her
art unit in October 2005. Sirmons was often away from his
office during that time. As previous supervisors had
authorized and without any indication to the contrary from
Sirmons, the examiner had a senior primary examiner
review and sign applications in Sirmons’ absence and
submitted them for production credit. Sirmons held them
until “count Monday,” the submission deadline day when,
without a word to the examiner, he left them in her office
with the primary examiner’s approving signature crossed
out. She, as a result, had abysmally low production that
biweek. He told her he was upset she had gone to the
primary examiner.
The relationship was off to a rocky start. The examiner
tried to get out but was not allowed to transfer to another
art unit. Two months of continuous difficulties with Sirmons
brought the examiner to a level of frustration she could not
tolerate. She went on annual leave in December 2005 and
subsequently resigned from the USPTO in January 2006.
In June 2006 IG Special Agent Rachel Ondrik paid a
surprise visit to the examiner at home and asked about her
time accounting. Ondrik indicated that there were a number
of discrepancies between the examiner’s badge-in, badge-out
turnstile records and the time she reported on her time and
attendance forms. Ondrik questioned other USPTO
examiners in their offices about this case in ways that they
described as witness intimidation. (See POPA News, Jan.
2007.) The Commonwealth of Virginia arrested the
examiner in July 2006 on charges of obtaining money, and
attempting to obtain money, under false pretenses. The trial
was held in January 2007.
Ondrik testified at the trial that one of the examiner’s
earlier supervisors “had warned her that those turnstile
records could be audited and her time sheets should match
them.” The examiner testified that she had never been so
warned. Interestingly, USPTO Director of Security and
Safety J. R. Garland testified at the trial that the turnstile
design was not intended for time keeping purposes. (See
following article.)
Trial evidence and testimony showed that the defendant
had spent some mornings working from her parents’ home
because of difficulties with her pregnancy. She would then
go into the agency in the late mornings or early afternoons
to complete her work. She would claim the full number of
hours she had worked, even though witnesses testified that
she had not received prior approval to telework
(the hoteling program didn’t exist at the time). During the
times in question, the examiner maintained an outstanding
production level in excess of 130 percent, the maximum
percentage for which the USPTO pays examiners.
Other evidence at trial established that some of the
turnstile records did not represent an accurate record of
employees’ time and attendance. Testimony showed that, on
more than one occasion, the examiner was logged in and
working on USPTO computers (something she could not
have done remotely) while turnstile records indicated that
she was not in the buildings. The evidence proved that the
turnstile records, while perhaps useful for security purposes,
could not be relied upon for employee attendance.
The jury recognized that, while the examiner may have
violated an agency policy on telework, her actions were not
criminal. The examiner had indeed given the USPTO every
bit of work it paid her for plus more.
After the verdict, the jury foreman approached the
defendant to say that he and the jury were sorry that the
examiner and her family had to go through the trial.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by plex on May 22^nd, 2007, 8:54pm

That is a pretty disturbing article :(.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by current_examiner on May 22^nd, 2007, 9:10pm

It's crazy. Why would they not just fire her? I mean, why prosecute?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on May 23^rd, 2007, 6:40am

on 05/22/07 at 19:44:56, gsfo wrote:

Why is anybody barred from working voluntary unpaid overtime? Is that a result of some union vs. management backroom negotiation?

It isn't a union thing as much as a general labor law thing. For non-exempt employees, the law doesn't allow taking advantage of the employee by assigning too much work and then having the employee work for free to get the job done rather than being evaluated as inefficient. I'm sure the policy is the result of someone suing Uncle Sam.

The PTO handles that problem by making voluntary overtime for the equivalent of non-exempt employees illegal and then just getting rid of those who cannot complete the required work fast enough. Examiners at GS-7 and below sign a statement every bi-week indicating that they know of the policy. Presumably working involuntary overtime can get a GS-7 fired, but I don't know of such cases. I have heard of examiners being verbally corrected about the policy.

I imagine that some GS-5 and GS-7s take the risk of getting caught working too many hours rather than the facing the sure bet of getting fired for low productivity while on probation.

Also, most examiners are at least at GS-9 by the end of the probationary period. At that point they can work as much voluntary overtime as they want.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by willi173 on May 23^rd, 2007, 9:17am

A couple of weeks ago, I received an email from USPTO stating that I was being considered for a start date of mid-June. As instructed by the email, I forwarded official copies of my transcripts to HR. Since then I've heard nothing from the office. Does this mean that I'm likely not to get the job, or is government bureaucracy exceedingly slow, and I may yet get an offer?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by ExaminerJr on May 23^rd, 2007, 12:41pm

on 05/23/07 at 09:17:55, willi173 wrote:

Did the email say "this is not an official offer letter" while sounding an awful lot like an offer? If so, that probably means HR will get to you within the next few weeks and give you a call. In my case, I received a non-official offer from a PTO representative, followed by an email similar to the one you received. I was told that after my HSPD form and PIV form were faxed, I would receive a call from HR. Took a couple of weeks to hear from HR.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by amazed on May 24^th, 2007, 9:05pm

I"m amazed by the above article and that the pto would try to send its former employees to prison for minor violations of the rules. I hope that management knows that this reflects pretty badly on the institution. This is the worst kind of press you can imagine. Maybe it scares some examiners into being more diligent about their time accounting... but it probably keeps a lot more people from ever considering working at the patent office.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by MSU316L on May 25^th, 2007, 10:19am

I got my formal offer to start at the PTO on July 9th last week. Contrary to what many say on this board, I have some insider friends and they actually enjoy their jobs.

I am very excited about the art unit I was hired into. I was contacted by the individual who will be my main supervisor, he seemed very nice and excited to have me.

I will try to post information as to my new experiences here once they occur. I am thrilled to move to DC. I want to go the patent/intellectual property route and the USPTO seems the best place to start. Hopefully I am correct!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by someExaminer on May 26^th, 2007, 8:32am

How long has the PTO been trying to send its former employees to jail? Is this a new thing? Does this only happen to examiners who irritate their supervisors, or is it institution wide?

Also, how does this help the institution? Frankly, it seems like an enormous waste of time and money for the PTO. Also, it seems like this would really poison the work environment.

How may have been prosecuted? The POPA newsletters refers to at least 4 over the past 2 yrs.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by xExamienr on May 26^th, 2007, 11:09am

USPTO is hands down the worse place to work. Regardless of the assumption of "government workers having an easy work life and a lenient work environment" compared to private sectors (large or mid-size IP firms) is positively just an assumption when speaking in terms of working for the USPTO. The simple fact that the USPTO has arrested a former employee with a law degree, MD degree, and consecutive production levels of 130% for 3 years is outrageous (keep in mind 130% production is extremely hard to reach). An individual with an overall academic credential that surpasses an examiner position within the USPTO, presumably, would not risk years of academic hard work to cheat the government and USPTO from a few dollars. As a prior patent examiner, it is ridiculous for a government institution to “hunt” a former examiner down and bring him/her to trial. The turnstiles in the USPTO buildings are also not always fully functional. There has been many times when the turnstiles have been down and not working. With that said, I am glad I left the USPTO and will not ever recommend anyone working there.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Current_Examiner on May 26^th, 2007, 7:38pm

Wow, xExaminer, your post seems a little harsh. I currently work for the PTO and I've only have good experiences. Sure, I admit, the job is not a "cake walk". You have to work and do your job. But I find the job very doable. I've been above 100 percent since my first biweek examining and I'm averaging about 130% a biweek.

As far as them prosecuting examiners for time card issues, I can't say anything. I've never had any bad experiences. They told us when we were hired to be careful and accurate with our time cards. So that's what I do, and I've not had any problems.
I'm sure the PTO has people who try to cheat the system, as any large company does. I'm not saying this for any specific circumstance, just an opinion. I've met some very unprofessional examiners at the PTO, so I'm not surprised if this is the case.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by MSU316L on May 26^th, 2007, 8:31pm

I know this is a bit off-topic for this thread but I thought I would give it a shot.

I begin training on July 9th, I was hoping to find a roommate and live in Arlington (Pentagon/Crystal City) and possibly Arlington. I am a 23 y/o male, I just completed my undergrad education. Would prefer a beginning of July move-in.

If you are interested please contact me at spjosephd(dot)gmail(dot)com

I feel this is a bit better than going to craigslist route.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by willi173 on May 29^th, 2007, 8:29am

I'm happy for all of those who have received official offers from USPTO. However, I am quite embarrassed. It appears that I've been rejected from joining your ranks. It's been three weeks since I received an email informing me that I was a candidate for an examiner position beginning on June 11. I promptly forwarded official transcripts to HR as requested, and I've yet to hear anything. With only two weeks left until that supposed start date, it looks like I'v come up short. Oh well.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by MSU316L on May 29^th, 2007, 8:57am

on 05/29/07 at 08:29:00, willi173 wrote:

willi173,

I wouldn't say that is a rejection at all. Let me give you the time frame as to how things worked for me.

I applied for a position in late January (on USAJobs). I didn't hear back until end of Feb. saying that I was qualified - I uploaded all documents that same day.

I called about every 2 weeks (HR) asking the status of my application. (I mentioned I would like to have a start date of mid-May). I got my formal offer LAST WEEK! It took them a good 4 months to get in contact with me.

I would suggest calling around, sending your resume to those that run particular art areas that you are interested in. That is what I did and landed a spot in biotech (just where I wanted to be.) Don't give up hope.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by xexam on May 29^th, 2007, 5:35pm

" I'm sure the PTO has people who try to cheat the system, as any large company does. "

The jury in the case cited above seemed not to think that the examiner being prosecuted was trying to cheat the system.

Seriously, any place that prosecutes people who are performing well above average when they leave... not to mention professional people... is having serious problems.

I am a former examiner and I could list both pos's and neg's about the job that would fill a book (worked there for three years). I will say that the management often does not treat its staff as if they were professionals and that causes them to lose the best and the brightest. They fire the worst and the middle-band they end up keeping is a hard-working lot... that also tends to be less-than-ambitious.

Those gigantic attrition rates are the result of two main factors: 1) management/examiner relations are quite poor when compared to other work environments and 2) after a few years on the job any examiner worth his/her salt can get a much better job in the private sector where the pay is better and the workload is about the same.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by now_at_PTO on May 29^th, 2007, 5:41pm

"I've been above 100 percent since my first biweek examining and I'm averaging about 130% a biweek."

If this is really true than either: 1) your quality sucks and you don't understand your own art, 2) your art is super-easy (are you one of those people examining garden tools?) or 3) you went from a tenured professorship at MIT to a GS-5 step 1.

Seriously, production is no joke. You're pushed by management to keep pumping out applications at the expense of your understanding them. After you've been there for a year or so... after you become an expert in your art... this isn't a big deal. During your first year, however, you don't know what you're doing. If you understand that you don't know what you're doing you're fine. If you think you know what you're doing and you don't... you're going to end up a disaster.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on May 29^th, 2007, 5:47pm

on 05/29/07 at 08:29:00, willi173 wrote:

Go ahead and call them. They're VERY inefficient and sometimes don't have any idea what's going on. You can go back a few pages and read my hiring experience (reply #850). I am 100% sure I wouldn't be working at the PTO right now if I hadn't have called human resources four or five times.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by 2Cents on May 29^th, 2007, 8:37pm

The fact that examiners and primary examiners claim that after the 14th month of starting at PTO, the work becomes easier because you eventually learn the art and the corners of examination. In my opnion, I believe thats all a full of crap. GS levels above 5 and 7 have continuously resigned due to 1) a higher paying salary in the private sector (law firm) 2) the stress is unbearable. I have seen many examiners above GS7 and primary examiners staying late and complaining about production. The fact that examiners have sent out garbage Office Actions have resulted in many lawyers complaning about the lack of appreciation put into one application. There have been a few times when the examiner has sent out an Office Action that entirely missed the core invention of the application. The Office in my opinion, should either reduce the counts per bi-week or find a way to decrease the stress level at the Office.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Current_Exam on May 31^st, 2007, 4:34am

"If this is really true than either: 1) your quality sucks and you don't understand your own art, 2) your art is super-easy (are you one of those people examining garden tools?) or 3) you went from a tenured professorship at MIT to a GS-5 step 1. "

Well, my quality doesn't suck, I'm not in an easy art, and no, I'm not a former professor.

I learn quickly and I'm a hard worker.
:o

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by applicant on May 31^st, 2007, 4:28pm

I am applying for the PE position at the USPTO.

Many posters wrote that working for PTO as a PE is extremely stressful.

I believe that "stress or no stress" is a very subjective POV AND is a relative feeling. We all know (or heard) that most if not all Federal jobs are kind of easy and laid back. So, is it possible that these posters are comparing the PE job with other Fed jobs only? If that is the case, then maybe a PE job at PTO is only about as stressful as any similar job in the corporate arena. I myself had worked in the corporate world (software engineering) for many years and, trust me, it was always stressful, subjectively and relatively speaking.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Guest-0 on May 31^st, 2007, 4:43pm

In large corporations there is performance review/appraisals on a regular basis. If you are rated by your supervisor as average or below, you will be gone (laid off) in the next round of lay-off, which we all know too well happens a lot anywhere.

To me, that's not much different from the 100% (or 95%) requirement of production at the USPTO. And, when you get terminated at the PTO for less-than-acceptable production, it is no different than getting laid off in a corporation.

Since it looks like the BIGGEST concern about working as a PE at the PTO is this production quota and its offspring: stress, then, all potential applicants should not be scared away from this job due to a wrong perception that the corporate world is less harsh tha the PTO (performance appraisals vs production quotas).

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by jk on May 31^st, 2007, 8:45pm

" I learn quickly and I'm a hard worker. "

That's great and I'm sure it's true.

I will say, though, after seeing the work of others who have gotten up to speed very quickly that the more typical case is that they have no idea what they're doing. Many junior examiners do not understand their art very well and are simply doing a bunch of key word and key phrase searches. They end up finding patents to use as prior art that have the same key phrases, terms and/or structures... but have nothing to do with the core invention in the application.

I'm not sure management is terribly concerned with this, however. This seems to be more and more of a problem with the new hiring campaign. The office has taken in a lot of young bacehlor's level grads with poor academic records who don't really have a good foundation, let alone an understanding of the cutting-edge technology they examine.

As for the stress argument: I currently work for a well-respected law firm and the stress is about the same as it was when I was a mid-level examiner. I like the job better because it entails more variety and more interpersonal interaction... and also because it pays much better for the same amount of work.

I also think that some art units push their examiners more than others. In certain fields where the technology is saturated (e.g., certain sub fields of electronics or signal processing), examiners see many duplicate application and can use the same rejections with the same art over and over again. Other arts (like nanotechnology) have much more variety and require a lot more work. The production quotas don't always accurately reflect these differences.

Note that for this and other reasons, the attrition rate of new examiners is much higher in some units than others. It's still very high across the board, but it's really really bad in a few places that are particularly miserable.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Response on May 31^st, 2007, 10:12pm

With the above three post regarding the pros and cons related to patent examination at PTO, one would think that the "complainers" that eventually leave the PTO is comparing the stress encountered at PTO to other federal jobs. With that said, this is not the case. Many attorneys that work at the PTO with the speculation that it is easier and less stressful than working at a firm or a corporation continuously say that it is substantially more stressful at the PTO as an examiner.

Why would one work at the PTO with the same amont of work as attorneys at a law firm and get paid less? PTO has been trying to create new incentives to keep examiners at PTO, such as IFP, hoteling, etc. There should be no reason for an organization to develope such incentives to keep their emplyees if the retention rate was low. In contrast, the retention is high, therefore management needs to develope incentives to keep their examiners and keep the same rate of examination of patent applications.

I personally feel that management should instead change the production formula instead of creating incentives. The quality of Office Actions would be of a better quality and therefore, have less attorneys complain about the poor quality of Office Actions being sent out.

Furthermore, the amount of work put into an application is substantially more than an examienr putting work into an Office Action. Examiners do not appreciate the true novelty and amount of work used to draft an application. Therefore, they see the application as just a burden and soemthing they need to get rid of.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by hsdj on Jun 1^st, 2007, 6:39am

I never understood why the PTO makes such a big deal about "hoteling" as a perk... when just about every other government agency offers telework. Most do it for junior as well as senior people.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Genesis on Jun 1^st, 2007, 3:10pm

Forgive my naieveness, what exactly is First Office Action, Office Action, RCE?

Can any current or past PTO PEs explain them to me ?

Thanks !

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by plex on Jun 1^st, 2007, 4:12pm

They're pretty simple terms

First office action: The initial response from a patent examiner to a complete patent submission. This is the initial review in which the examiner judges if there are any discrepancies, major or minor, and notifies the patentee(s).

Office action: A response from a patent examiner, there is normally at least a first office action and a final action. There can be more depending on if new problems are identified in between the initial and final response. The final response is just that, final, it is a judgment on whether the patent in its current state is acceptable, an the patentee is more limited on how they can respond.

RCE: Request for Continued Examination: A patentee can request for a continuation for the examination of a patent, there are certain requirements, forms and fees that must be submitted/met in order to make such a request.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by careerexaminer on Jun 4^th, 2007, 6:39pm

I have a nephew who is currently applying for USPTO job. He received the result letter stating that he is tentatively qualified along with the request to fill out the questionair.

What are next ?? how long ??

thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by q on Jun 5^th, 2007, 4:24pm

careerexaminer:

After reading numerous post on this forum, it seems that there is NO standard sequence of steps in terms of what happens after applying online.

In my case, about 1 week after I completed the questionaire online (kind of personality, psychology, and rating by other people type of questions), I received a phone call from HR to schedule an interview with a SPE. Then, after about 10 days, I had the interview which took about 35 minutes on the phone.

I am sure some other candidates may have a different path/experience.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by qqq on Jun 5^th, 2007, 5:27pm

on 06/04/07 at 18:39:01, careerexaminer wrote:

From what I had read on this forum, there seems there is no standard steps of sequence after an online application is files.

After I applied online, I got an email asking me to complete an online questionaire which I did. Then about a week later, I got a phone call from the HR to schedule for a phone interview with one of their SPE. That interview happened about 10 days later. Now, I am waiting for their decision which I was told by the SPE will take about 4-6 weeks.

Good luck to myself !

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by 2Btabby on Jun 8^th, 2007, 12:45am

Hello, I joined the PTA recently and have been liking it so far. It seems like they've been very careful about not scaring anybody off just yet.

My question was if anybody else started out as a GS-5? I was one of the few MEs selected (my GPA was a dismal 2.75) albeit from a very good school. Perhaps I had a really good interview? I guess I just feel lucky, considering they only hired a few mechanicals and I'm surrounded by so many Masters holders and JDs.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by sam31sam on Jun 8^th, 2007, 12:48am

Hi everyone,

I will be starting my position at the USPTO on July 9th 2007 and during my research I have stumbled on this informative forum.

It seems that the PE position is a lot more stressful than I imagined. I've also read somewhere that people have been even fired from their jobs. This brings me to my question.

How long is the probationary period? I've read somewhere that it was for one year and some other place that it was for two years.

Does the USPTO fire people after this probationary period?

One of the benefits on their website lists job security. It seems that your job is not as secure as they would like you to think. I'm sure I will do well in my career over there as I am a quick learner and a hard worker but I want to have reasonable expectations as to what my experience is going to be like.

Also as a side note, does anyone know of someone that is looking for a roommate? I'm looking for a place to rent/lease by July 1 2007, getting a place on my own will be too expensive. Looking to spend $800 or less

please email me if you have any information

sam31sam(at)gmail(dot)com

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Jun 8^th, 2007, 9:24am

on 06/08/07 at 00:48:41, sam31sam wrote:

Does the USPTO fire people after this probationary period?

Of course they do. The probationary period is a period during which a supervisor can discharge/fire an employee with less due process. After that, you can be fired for reasons similar to those that would get you fired from any job.

Examiners need not worry that they will be layed off because of downsizing or decreased work inventory. That's really about all of the job security anyone can ever expect unless they work for their dad who won't fire them even if they are caught with their fingers in the till.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Jun 8^th, 2007, 11:39am

The probationary period is two years. If you try hard and improve you'll be fine unless your supervisor doesn't like you (which does happen).

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by fdsfsdds on Jun 8^th, 2007, 4:26pm

No, the period is still one year. PTO is wanting to increase it to two years, but it's still in negotiation with POPA and yes you can be fired within the probationary period. A guy in my art unit was "let go" after his one year was up--he just couldn't get a handle for the job.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by qq on Jun 8^th, 2007, 4:55pm

Hi,

My main concern/question relating to the risk of getting fired within the probationary year is:

The technical requirement for the PE job is a B.Sc. degree in EE.

How can the USPTO expect a new graduate in EE (and even those with just a year or two experience) to be able to proof-read and verify the viability of those circuit diagrams that most probably will come with the patent application, in a short time frame? I assume that a PE's job is to make sure that the EE art actually will work which will take a great deal of time (circuit diagrams), in addition to the ensurance of the claims. Let's all face it, how much can a 4-year college education really prepare you for "proving" the workability of a EE invention? Not that much.

Some of you probably will say "stop worry too much too early!". But for those of us still in the application pipeline, it is better know it ahead of time whether the USPTO has under-stated the job requirements, or may be I am misunderstanding that the PE job simply does not require that much technical skill (beyond those taught in the 4 years of college). Jumping into a job with the incorrect expectation can be suicidal carrer-wise.

Current and/or former Patent Examiners please comment on my question.

Thanks!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Jun 8^th, 2007, 5:37pm

on 06/08/07 at 16:26:16, fdsfsdds wrote:

My probationary period is two years.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Current_Examiner on Jun 8^th, 2007, 7:50pm

My probationary period is 2 years as well. Everyone in the training academy's is 2 years now.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by sam31sam on Jun 8^th, 2007, 9:32pm

QQ wrote,

"Hi,

My main concern/question relating to the risk of getting fired within the probationary year is:

The technical requirement for the PE job is a B.Sc. degree in EE.

How can the USPTO expect a new graduate in EE (and even those with just a year or two experience) to be able to proof-read and verify the viability of those circuit diagrams that most probably will come with the patent application, in a short time frame? I assume that a PE's job is to make sure that the EE art actually will work which will take a great deal of time (circuit diagrams), in addition to the ensurance of the claims. Let's all face it, how much can a 4-year college education really prepare you for "proving" the workability of a EE invention? Not that much.

Some of you probably will say "stop worry too much too early!". But for those of us still in the application pipeline, it is better know it ahead of time whether the USPTO has under-stated the job requirements, or may be I am misunderstanding that the PE job simply does not require that much technical skill (beyond those taught in the 4 years of college). Jumping into a job with the incorrect expectation can be suicidal carrer-wise.

Current and/or former Patent Examiners please comment on my question.

Thanks! "

This is actually a good question ince I've been out of college for some time now. I haven't actually performed any engineering or design functions on my previous jobs and am probabily a bit rusty. I learned the stuff in college once, I'm sure i can pick it up again. But to what extent does the USPTO expect one to know design/engineering? especially those who have been out of college for some time.

Side note

qq, mk1023, Current_Examiner

do you guys know of anyone looking for a roommate. I start on July 9th and would be looking to rent/lease on July 1st. If not, do you guys have any recommendations on where to live? Any help would be greately appreciated. TIA

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by sam31sam on Jun 8^th, 2007, 9:34pm

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by sam31sam on Jun 8^th, 2007, 9:40pm

sorry for the double post guys. My web browser never showed the first post after I refreshed the page multiple times. If there is a moderator please delete this post and one of the duplicate posts. Thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by aa on Jun 8^th, 2007, 11:09pm

on 06/08/07 at 16:55:39, qq wrote:

I don't work in hardware side so i can't speak to your questions directly (although i have friends who work in hardware). You just have to come and see what is expected in your art area, although i'm not sure it will be what you are thinking in terms of testing every circuit.

But i can give you the low-down on production, so you understand what is expected. You are going to have an "expectancy" measured in hours (for my art it is 31.6, for example). It is the same for everyone in your art. Then you will have a "position factor", which is dependant on your GS level (i'm a GS-12, so my position factor is 1, for a GS-11 it is .9, for a GS-9 it is .8, etc - basically lower for lower GS levels - for GS-13 i think it is 1.15 and for GS-14, primary, i think 1.25). You take the expectancy and divide it by your position factor to determine the amount of time you have to work on an application through one cycle, first action to disposal (abandon/allow/rce). That's it - if you can't do them in that time then you are gone, fired. Period.

Maybe they will cut you slack at the beginning, but not for long. That is what probation is about, seeing who can handle the workload.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Prospective on Jun 10^th, 2007, 12:36pm

I would absolutely love to get employed into patent work in some fashion, but, for several reasons, living in Washington full-time is not an option for me (even if I was employed at a large law firm). Does anyone know if the office would consider 1/2 time work at all (2 10-hr. days, for example), part time volunteer experience, or some combination of the two?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Jun 10^th, 2007, 2:09pm

on 06/08/07 at 21:34:42, sam31sam wrote:

QQ wrote,

qq, mk1023, Current_Examiner

do you guys know of anyone looking for a roommate. I start on July 9th and would be looking to rent/lease on July 1st. If not, do you guys have any recommendations on where to live? Any help would be greately appreciated. TIA

When I moved here, I considered getting a roommate and browsed craigslist. There are were a lot of different people looking for roommates (I even saw several people starting at the PTO on there). Ultimately I decided I'd rather live by myself so I'm renting a 1 BR condo about 3 miles NW of the PTO.

As for where you should live, that depends on a few things. Do you have a car? Do you want to take the metro/bus to work? I had the impression moving here that traffic was going to be a nightmare. It's really only a big deal if you're travelling on the big interstates during rush hour. There's only a few minutes difference between the time it takes me to get from my apartment to the parking garage and the time it takes me to walk from the parking garage to where I work. Also, if you want to take public transportation, Alexandria has good bus service, so don't lock yourself into thinking you have to live near a metro station.

I would stick to looking at apartments in Alexandria or South Arlington so you can be close to the PTO. That's about as specific as I can be. There are hundreds of apartment complexes and townhouse developments in this area. The good news for you is that most of them have space. I suggest you take the next couple of weeks to browse the following sites:
1) craigslist: people list apartments and condos. Take a look at the pictures and see where they're located in relation to the PTO and Metro stations (if that's an issue for you_
2) apartmentshowcase.com: this is a site run by the Washington Post for apartment complexes. This will give you some idea of what you can expect to pay
3) apartmentratings.com: crosscheck apartments you find with this site. Apartment listings are often misleading

You probably want to avoid apartments that accept Section 8 (crime).

I've only been here a few months, so I'm far from an expert, however if you have any more questions send me a PM.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by JAYC on Jun 13^th, 2007, 12:11am

Does the PTO pay for a part-time masters in engineering?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jun 13^th, 2007, 11:01am

Yes PTO can pay for you to do a part time masters in engineering. I believe the rule is you need to work there for 1 year though before they start paying. I have a friend that works there that is currently doing a masters in ee at umcp and they are paying for it.

Does anyone know what the next PTA start dates are? I heard there was a July 9 one. Are there anymore in July and any in August?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jun 15^th, 2007, 10:19am

Found out that one of the next PTAs starts on August 20.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by considering on Jun 18^th, 2007, 8:10pm

Is that earlier post about the PTO prosecuting former examiners really true? It seems a little far fetched, but people here also seem to be taking it seriously. I'm guessing that it's something totally made up by people who got fired by the PTO because they were lazy or trying to cheat the system.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by afl on Jun 18^th, 2007, 8:14pm

How common is it to get fired at the PTO for low production? Does it happen to more like 1 out of 10 people, 1 of 100 or more like 1 out of 1000?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by qlf2 on Jun 18^th, 2007, 8:20pm

How common is it to get fired at the PTO for low production? Does it happen more to, like, a) 1 out of 5 people, b) 1 out 10 people, c) 1 out of 100 people or d) 1 out of 1000 people?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by afl on Jun 18^th, 2007, 8:21pm

sorry about the double posting. i goofed.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by aa on Jun 18^th, 2007, 10:37pm

on 06/18/07 at 20:20:00, qlf2 wrote:

How common is it to get fired at the PTO for low production? Does it happen more to, like, a) 1 out of 5 people, b) 1 out 10 people, c) 1 out of 100 people or d) 1 out of 1000 people?

During probation, being fired is rare. The PTO has a way of letting you know what is coming if it becomes apparent that you can't do the job, so most just walk away. I've known tons that have left because they saw the writing on the wall. Getting fired from a gov't job means you won't be working in gov't again the rest of your life, btw.

After probation you get warnings if you miss a quarter # (oral, written, then gone), so you know very well where you stand.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guestexam on Jun 19^th, 2007, 8:11am

Yes it is true that the PTO was prosecting a former examiner. You can also find the story in a recent POPA newsletter at popa-dot-org.

To the other posters - the PTO will fire anyone who doesn't meet production or quality standards. It is just easier to fire someone who isn't producing while they are still in their probationary year(s) because there is less governmental red-tape. It takes longer to fire retained employees, but it happens on a fairly regular basis. The PTO is an intellectual sweat shop, but that is the job . Production, production, production. Love it, leave it, or they'll ask you to leave. If you don't have illusions about what the job is, going in, then you'll be less likely to freak out about it once you are there. Some people don't believe what current and former examiners have to say about the place. There is a reason so much of it is negative. It is not a job for everyone. For some, it is the best place in the world. For others, it is a stepping stone to something else.
It is what you make of it.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by why on Jun 19^th, 2007, 12:33pm

Did anyone have this problem with this post forum?

I tried many time to post a message, and it kept telling me that my messager cannot include any Web link in it.

I checked and rechecked, there is no Web link or adrdress in my message. I just couldn't finish posting the message!

Very frustrated.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mrWorry on Jun 19^th, 2007, 1:29pm

To current and previous Patent Examiners at PTO:

I have a question that may sound silly; hope you do not mind:

If a patent application gets assigned to you, with claims saying that its invention can run an engine on air and water only, and it can go as fast as 200K RPM. It is accompanied by stacks of highly technical, sophisticated, and difficult design documents and design diagrams (dozens of them, if not hundreds).

As a patent examiner, obviously you will not be able to find any prior invention (art) with such claims.

Now what ? Do you have to, or are you required to carefully go through all of these design documents and diagrams and prove that it actually will work according to its claims, or to disprove it?
All within the (short) allocated time ?

I just want to know how technical a PE job really is. A number of previous posters indicated that a PE job is mainly (over 90 percent) legal and analytical paper work. That will leave only a few percentage of your time for going through and truly understanding the design/diagrams.

Shouldn't it really be the other way around? Shouldn't a PE be spending over 90 percent of his/her time on technical stuff, and the rest on legal/analysis paper work ? Now, if this is truly the case, then the real question is, how does the PTO expect a patent examiner with just a 4-year degree and may be a couple of years of experience (isn't that the minimum requirement stated in the Job Vacancy Announcement?) to be technically competent enough to do such work?

Thank you ahead of time for answering my (silly) question.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by aa on Jun 19^th, 2007, 3:49pm

on 06/19/07 at 13:29:39, mrWorry wrote:

mrworry: you worry too much.

There are enablement requirements in 112(1), and you could do a 101 rejection saying it is inoperative. You can even require a model or exhibit. Look in the MPEP.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by aa on Jun 19^th, 2007, 4:03pm

on 06/19/07 at 08:11:48, guestexam wrote:

The PTO lost that case, thank god.

I agree that if you can't handle the production you won't be in the Office long, but usually not an outright firing. You'll feel big pressure from above to improve, and unless you are brain-dead you'll know what is coming.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by af on Jun 19^th, 2007, 5:48pm

Worried is asking all the right questions...

I think the real answer is that you can't be thorough about the technical stuff and satisfy the production requirements... even if you have a phd... let alone if you only have a bachelor's.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by ff on Jun 19^th, 2007, 6:22pm

What do people like about the job?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by ss on Jun 19^th, 2007, 7:14pm

What kind of people like working for the PTO? What do they like about it?

Are the ones who leave for law firm jobs the ones who couldn't make it at the PTO, or is it the other way around?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mrWorry on Jun 19^th, 2007, 11:53pm

on 06/19/07 at 15:49:59, aa wrote:

mrworry: you worry too much.

There are enablement requirements in 112(1), and you could do a 101 rejection saying it is inoperative. You can even require a model or exhibit. Look in the MPEP.

I think my worry is very justified.

If I (and many of us) get the misconception that the PE job requires only a B.Sc. degree and then jump into this career and find out otherwise (like many of the people alleged had quit or got fired probably for the same reason), then I'll be heading for disaster career-wise. It is always better to find out more about the nature of the PE job before committing to it.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Jun 20^th, 2007, 6:21am

Nobody is going to suggest that additional education and experience are not helpful, but the overwhelming majority of examiners in arts employing engineers are college graduates with BS degrees in engineering and not much post college experience.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by aa on Jun 20^th, 2007, 9:03am

on 06/19/07 at 23:53:15, mrWorry wrote:

Don't get so defensive. I answered your question.

Personally i don't think your worry is "very justified". They are hiring virtually everyone new straight out of college.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Jun 20^th, 2007, 1:41pm

For those of you that care it looks like the training academies are going to be cut short by a month. Also, my lab is now eligible to work overtime/comp time (if you're at 100% without the curve for three straight bi-weeks).

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guestexam on Jun 20^th, 2007, 5:41pm

on 06/19/07 at 19:14:04, ss wrote:

What kind of people like working for the PTO? What do they like about it?

Are the ones who leave for law firm jobs the ones who couldn't make it at the PTO, or is it the other way around?

People who like always having a challenge or always having to learn something new like to work at the PTO. People who care about having a life outside work and people who don't mind a bit of stress on the job.

The ones who leave for law firms, who work for law firms and then join the PTO, or the ones who work for the PTO, leave for law firms and come back, all have different reasons.

I know people who left for law firms who were excellent examiners who got tired of the burecratic BS politics, the lack of management experience and training by PTO managers. These were well educated, high productive people who were just worn down by the union and sometimes ineffective management in what is a typical government bureaucracy. This group will do well at any profession they work in.

I know people who were "forced out" or asked to leave who were better suited for work in a law firm than the PTO because they were not analytical enough in their work or their production was marginal. This group will probably work better in a lower-stress, non-production environment.

I know people who were at law firms who came to work at the PTO because they were tired of billing 2000-2500 hours per year, wanted to have kids, wanted to spend more time with their family, or for health reasons, but still wanted an intellectually challenging job with somewhat decent pay.

Some people who left to work at law firms couldn't hack the production or the stress or the environment. They were jumping from the frying pan into the fire, but for some, the extra money is worth it.
Others just do better in environments where there is more hand-holding than at the PTO.

You can't pigeon-hole people because they did or didn't work at the PTO, or worked there and left, or worked there left and came back. People do all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons.

What I can tell you is that you should read the postings on this board and others and form your own opinions on whether you are right for a job at the PTO. just-n-examiner-dot-com is a good site. Google it.

An examiner's job is not easy and it is thankless. Attorneys and agents who have not been examiners do not tend to appreciate what examiners do or the kinds of pressures they are under. Attorneys/agents are under similar, but different kinds of pressures.

You probably won't be surprised to learn that there are many attorneys working as examiners in different tech centers - everything from EE to CS to biotech. There aren't many of them, but they are there. Some got their law degrees while working at the PTO and others started at the PTO with their law degree in hand.

How well you like your job will depend on your tech center, your art, your SPE, your mentor (or your series of mentors), your own career goals, and what you hope to get out of the job.
The people you work for can be just as much a part of how well you like the job as the work, itself.
Unfortunately, they don't hire MBAs as managers. Often you get someone who was a high producer as a primary who was promoted to an SPE. The promotion doesn't necessarily mean that the SPE is a competent manager.
Life can be hell if you have a SPE who is not a good manager. But, the same thing applies to any job in any engineering department anywhere.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by bobloblaw on Jun 20^th, 2007, 7:25pm

I asked this in another thread, but I am currently applying for a job at the PTO as an examiner. My undergrad degree was in chemical engineering, and I also have a JD.

Does anyone here know someone I could contact? I filled out a form online, but it seems so impersonal. Or would personally contacting someone be too much of an overkill?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by applied on Jun 21^st, 2007, 5:28pm

About a week after an interview with a SPE, I was told to follow the instructions in an email to submit the PIV and my unofficial transcripts. Also, I was told to request for official transcripts to be sent to USPTO HR office. I did all of the above. I was also told that after all these paper work are received, she will get the approval of the director, and then forward everything to the HR office. I was even given a Training Academy start date.

Question: I know that I will have to wait for the official firm offer before I can celebrate.

But, having gone that far, how close am I from getting the actual offer? No one at the USPTO had asked me to fill out any background investigation related forms, such as SF86, or SF85. (which form is it going to be?). It has been 10 days since I submitted the PIV (and other required stuff). Should I be concerned because I had not yet heard from HR ?

How long is the background investigation going to take? I would assume that any "offer", written or verbal, before the completion of the background investigation would be considered a "Conditional Offer", am I right?

Any input from new USPTO employees would be appreciated.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by 2Btabby on Jun 21^st, 2007, 5:56pm

I remember that period of uncertainty as well. Once I heard it I told people "I'm 95% sure I have a job with the USPTO, but its not official". People got confused when I said that, as was I. I think I recieved my official offer by phone anywhere from 2 weeks to a month after that. What I do remember is that I heard 1 1/2 months before my start date (May 29th).

I'm sure you'll be fine, but I understand the uncertainty.

BTW, there is a lot of negative press on this board but I seem to like the job so far (albeit a month of it). I think the people who don't like it don't know how much law and little engineering it is... I was fully aware of this.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by applied on Jun 21^st, 2007, 6:37pm

2Btabby:

Thanks for your encouraging response.

How long does the background investigation take? Does USPTO use the SF-85 (National Trust), or the SF-86 (National Security) form?

When you said that you received your official offer by phone anywhere from 2 weeks to a month after that, was that after the clearance was granted?

By the way, I am very glad to hear that you like the job.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by applied on Jun 21^st, 2007, 6:46pm

2Btabby:

Thanks for your encouraging response.

How long does background investigation take? Does the USPTO use the SF-85 (Public Trust) form, or the SF-86 form (National Security)?

When you say you received your official offer 2 weeks to a month after that, does that mean after the background investigation was completed and security clearance granted?

If USPTO gives me a short lead time between official offer (written) and the Academy training start date, I'll be very worried. Anything less than a month would be too short for me.

By the way, I am very glad to know that you like your job.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by applied on Jun 21^st, 2007, 6:53pm

Sorry for the redundant post.

The first one got an error message saying I must not include any Wen link/address. I did not include any such thing !

So I retyped the post to avoid any hidden character in the first one.

To my surprise, both got posted !

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jun 21^st, 2007, 6:58pm

Hi 'Applied'. I'm in the same boat as you. Had a phone interview on June 13, and received an email almost right after the interview asking me to submit HSPD-12 and of306. I did all that right away and they told me they received it and my unofficial transcripts were on file (through applicationmanager, usajobs). A couple of days later I called up the secretary/admin lady that requested all of my forms and just asked her what I should expect next. She said she put together my application package and submitted it to the TC Director for signature/approval. Once he/she signs it, it moves on to the Patent Hiring Center...they do something with it, and then pass it on to the Human Resources Office and once the Human Resources Offices gives the final approval, they contact you via phone (first usually from what I've heard from a friend) and through a letter in the mail with a formal offer. HRO has the final authority so until one receives a letter from them, yes, the offer is conditional.

I asked her about how long this process should take and she said it varies depending on how soon your PTA start date is, but to be safe she said it should not take longer than 3 weeks. The SPE I interviewed with said he is trying to bring me on board to start on August 20.

What date are they planning to start you? What Technology Center will you be in? Maybe we'll be in the same PTA. You can PM me if you'd like...I have several good friends who work as examiners there.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by gh on Jun 21^st, 2007, 7:00pm

I think that Mr. Worry is pretty much dead-on with his questions.

Here’s the thing: your job as an examiner is really more legal than technical. I agree with you that it seems like it should be the other way around, but it’s not. As evidence of what I’m talking about: before examiners become managers they are often asked to do a rotation in an art they don’t know very well at all. The idea is that the key to examining is not the technical stuff, it’s understanding the process of examining. The latter is a lot less about real analysis than it is about shuffling people. Sounds harsh, but it's true.

My personal view is that this is a mistake and that it results in a lot of wasted examining. I’ve seen a lot of office actions written by examiners who really don’t have a clue about their art – people who are just hacking their way through the job. I’m not sure the office minds this. It seems like the important thing from the management’s perspective is to keep the paper flowing and the legal stuff right, even if the technical stuff is mucked up.

After all, they hire a lot of examiner’s who have zero technical experience, marginal bachelor’s degrees in engineering and have graduated in the bottom of their classes. A lot of these people are ideal for the job precisely because they don’t know enough to realize they don’t understand what they’re doing.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by 2Btabby on Jun 21^st, 2007, 7:05pm

Come on now, gh. I believe that a bacholers in engineering (even if you're not on the top of your class) shows technical competance. You don't have to know your art well- you learn it; however to learn it you will need a technical mind, spacial skills, work well under pressure, etc. I think an engineering degree shows this. I will agree with you however in that this job is mostly legal work.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by applied on Jun 21^st, 2007, 7:09pm

mandejapan,

The lady from the Recruitment Center (or is it Hiring Center) says she will put me in the 9/17 class. I have no idea which TC I'll be in. But hopefully, it has something to do with my background: EE or CS.

Again as I said before, I'm a bit concerned about not having been asked to submit the Security Forms (SF-85 or SF-86). My experience tells me that it can take a long time to process these background investigation, but ONLY after the SF forms are received by USPTO.

If I don't receive a written official offer by say 8/1, I might have trouble in getting an apartment in the area plus RELOCATION !

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by gh on Jun 21^st, 2007, 7:09pm

on 06/20/07 at 17:41:46, guestexam wrote:

Others just do better in environments where there is more hand-holding than at the PTO.

You probably won't be surprised to learn that there are many attorneys working as examiners in different tech centers - everything from EE to CS to biotech.

I've worked at both a high-end law firm and at the PTO. While I wouldn't say there is a lot of "hand-holding" in either environment, I would definitely say there's more in the PTO.

There are attorneys at the PTO, but most of them aren't exactly at the top of their game. It's really hard to find a job at a DC law firm unless you went to a very good law school and have a strong academic record. If you have these things, PTO experience isn't that important. If you graduated from a marginal law school and your grades were mediocre, the PTO is a good place to get some IP experience. A few years there won't get you into a high-end firm, but might give you an edge when trying to get a job at the lower end ones.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by gh on Jun 21^st, 2007, 7:19pm

on 06/21/07 at 19:05:25, 2Btabby wrote:

I guess there are varying degrees of competence.

My point is that you don’t really have to be a strong technical person to work at the PTO. In fact, in some cases I think that understanding the technical stuff well might slow down your productivity.

As to class rank and education level… one question:

If you had to choose to fly in one of two planes and you knew that one had been designed by a professor of aerospace engineering from MIT and the other was a 2.0 GPA student who took 5 yrs to graduate with a bachelor’s from Ball State… which would you choose?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by 2Btabby on Jun 21^st, 2007, 7:22pm

mande and applied:

Almost everybody got their 85 back after orientation (to modify because of errors). I didn't get mine in until maybe one week into training. Some people had to do theirs over several times... they're very particular. In fact... one co-worker of mine just finalized his earlier this week.

If you two have any questions about my first 4 weeks at the PTA, I'd be happy to answer them.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by 2Btabby on Jun 21^st, 2007, 7:30pm

on 06/21/07 at 19:19:22, gh wrote:

It depends on the fares... ha. But I understand your point.

I personally didn't do too great in engineering. I think that doing medicore in a subject, but still graduating is a testimate to you understanding the basics of the material without becoming committed or very interested in it. This was my case anyway. If I would have enjoyed homework, instead of skipping most of it and getting by in the tests, I'm sure I would have done better.

I gather that most people in the USPTO are there for a reason: they didn't especially like engineering or don't want an engineering career. I think that finding more people in the lower ends of their class rather than the top is to be expected. I was just going for the piece of paper and had a great time in college.

I'm committed to law however and want a 2nd chance at law school in the future. I also plan on doing good work in the present to the best of my abilities in a law-related career at the USPTO.

My main point is that I don't think you can fairly expect top engineers in a non-engineering field.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by applied on Jun 21^st, 2007, 8:09pm

2Btabby,

I'm surprised that the USPTO will allow a person to start working, meaning having access to sensitive documents, before his/her background investigation has completed (or even started). My understanding is that the BI would not start until the SF-85 is filled and submitted.

What if the security clearance somehow gets denied ? Does the "employed" subject have to leave the job and, if he relocated from say 3000 miles away, have to move back without a job?

Did I misunderstand your post ?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Jun 21^st, 2007, 8:41pm

Your SF-85 won't get processed until after you start working. The first day of work they return it to you with little post it notes on where to make corrections. You're also going to have to add your current address (which you won't know in advance if you're moving here) and also add your new supervisor's name (which you obviously won't know before you start). Everything doesn't need to be fixed until a couple weeks after you start.

Bottom line is that it isn't going to be a problem for you unless you have something to hide.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by gh on Jun 21^st, 2007, 8:42pm

Tabby,

I agree with you about everything, except that I don’t like what the last bit implies. I think that the PTO would benefit (and so would the US IP system) from making sure the technical aspects of the job were done more rigorously. In my opinion, patent examining really is should be done by people who are good enough at their art to be inventors themselves.

I have met more than a few examiners who were either inventors or researchers. These people chose to work at the PTO not because they weren’t good at what they did, but because it was more stable, higher paying or both. So, do they make the best examiners? I would argue that they do, in the sense that their decisions on patentability have the full weight of their expertise behind them. In other words, they really understand their respective fields well enough to see novelty when it really comes across their desks.

I don’t think the office is really worried about that, however. I think its management is far more concerned with pushing paper for the sake of pushing paper.

Just one ex-examiner’s opinion…

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by gh on Jun 21^st, 2007, 8:51pm

[quote author=applied

What if the security clearance somehow gets denied ? Does the "employed" subject have to leave the job and, if he relocated from say 3000 miles away, have to move back without a job?

[/quote]

I've never heard of anybody getting denied. It's not really that kind of security check. They basically call up your friends and verify that you're not an axe-murderer or something. It's not a high level clearance... it's not like you're designing cruise missiles or something.

If I remember correctly, you don't start working on pending patent applications until well after this form has been processed.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by applied on Jun 21^st, 2007, 9:59pm

2Btabby, mandejapan, gh, mk1023, etc:

Thank you for providing me with valuable info. I do feel slightly sure now. But, I still have to see the written offer before I can rejoice.

This is a great forum !

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by applied on Jun 21^st, 2007, 11:58pm

on 06/21/07 at 19:22:19, 2Btabby wrote:

mande and applied:

If you two have any questions about my first 4 weeks at the PTA, I'd be happy to answer them.

2Btabby,

Yes, I have a question about the PTA:

During training, is it possible at all to take a few days off (say up to a week) for a overseas travel? Does a new employee have any vacation days?

Do you or your co-worker happen to know how much an impact this can be to one's work performance later on ?

Thanks!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by bond007 on Jun 22^nd, 2007, 2:49am

yes, it is possible to get days off during the training academy. i would suggest to ask the hiring manager right away and give them a heads up and request time off before you start, so they will be ready for that. Once you start working and are on training, it will be extremely to get time off then as they won't really like it. but if you let them know in advance before you start work/training, they would appreciate that. I had a friend in our training academy who had requested 3 weeks off when he was hired over the phone. He let them know in advance before starting the job. Goodluck!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jun 22^nd, 2007, 8:09am

Hi 'Applied'...their new process now for the SF-85 is to do it online now too so I think it's processed quicker. A friend of mine that started working there in April 16 received an email on March 12 saying the following:

----------------------------
Dear Selectees:

Your information has been entered into E-QIP (Electronic Questionnaires for Investigations Processing). You have been "invited" to access the system and complete your SF-85P on-line.

As of 03/12/2007, you have not loged in to start the process, it is very important that the process be initiated as soon as possible, and within 5 business days from your entrance on duty date. Please go to www.opm.gov/e-qip <file://www.opm.gov/e-qip> to initiate the process at the "Enter E-QIP Applicant Site". Once you have completed the SF-85P, please print out the signature pages, sign and date. You must bring the original forms with you when you report to duty on March 19, 2007. Successfully completing a background investigation and maintaining the required suitability is a condition of federal employment.
----------------------------

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by applied on Jun 22^nd, 2007, 6:41pm

Thanks, mandejapan. Good piece of info.

Am I the only one here on this forum surprised to find that the USPTO lets people to start working BEFORE their background had been checked out and cleared? I know some of you said that nobody ever gets denied on their BI, but still, it is kind of "horse before the carrot" kind of thing to me.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jun 23^rd, 2007, 8:49pm

I don't think this has been posted before in this thread but I found a blog today where a patent examiner who joined the Patent Training Academy (PTA) on May 28th talks about his daily experiences as he goes through the PTA:

http://www.patentlyacademic.com/index.php?paged=2

It's pretty interesting to read...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jun 23^rd, 2007, 9:19pm

There are several other blogs and websites that are linked on the Patently Academic blog I posted above...they have been mentioned before in some of the posts such as Just-n-Examiner and Patently-O

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by marklyon on Jun 25^th, 2007, 9:48am

What's the timeline for hearing back on an application submitted through USAJOBS? I submitted and app for a PATENT EXAMINER (EE, COMP E, CS, PHYSICS) position on 3/5/07, hearing nothing, and have resubmitted a new app on 6/20/07. The 3/5 app now shows CLOSED, but the 6/20 still shows open.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jun 25^th, 2007, 1:13pm

Marklyon,

Like most people have suggested, I would recommend that you try to contact a SPE (supervisory patent examiner) or hiring coordinator in an area that you are interested in. Or if you know a current patent examiner or someone that works there you should contact him/her and see if they can pass your resume around to supervisors that are currently hiring. Here are some links that might help you:

Hiring Contacts (most of these are SPEs)
http://usptocareers.gov/contact.asp

You can search the different Technology Centers and find a supervisor on the Management Rosters here:
http://www.uspto.gov/web/info/pat-tech.htm
http://www.uspto.gov/web/info/index.html

Link to setup your own interview with a SPE if they are hiring in your area of education/experience:
http://www.usptocareers.gov/jobfair/

From what I have seen so far it seems like it's pretty difficult for someone to just get hired by submitting their application just through USAJOBS without actually going to a job fair and meeting someone from the USPTO or knowing someone that works there.

Goodluck...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Know on Jun 25^th, 2007, 9:55pm

Hello,

Can anyone recommend any good books to learn patent law? Or any law college websites that has good notes and slide shows..

I'm trying to prepare to work at the uspto.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by 2Btabby on Jun 26^th, 2007, 12:41am

Know: The USPTO has a 8 month training academy. You'll learn all you need to know there - and get paid a salary for it. Most people in the academy didn't know jack about patents when they started (or very little).

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Jun 26^th, 2007, 5:41pm

Interesting day for the February class today.

The prevailing version in my lab of what happened is that someone in one of the other labs punched one person, tried to choke a second person (female), and then jumped on a table and punched the ceiling.

I heard about someone in the training academy a few months ago getting kicked out for threatening somebody.

The thing is there is very little pressure now (especially compared to back in TC). I don't see how people can get so worked up.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Bargaining Tool on Jun 26^th, 2007, 8:59pm

Interesting thing that happened to me today:

I received a verbal offer from PTO to examine the EXACT technology that a local firm deals almost exclusively with with. I interviewed with this firm a while back, and (to my understanding) they were going to hire me but the financial guys decided there wasn't enough work to justify another salary.

I know it's pretty open-ended, but any thoughts?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by applied on Jun 26^th, 2007, 9:21pm

on 06/26/07 at 17:41:18, mk1023 wrote:

mk1023,

What was the cause of the melee ? Did the perpetrator punched his/her SPE who was going to fire him/her for underperformed production (I was told that PE are assigned real cases toward the middle and end of their training)?

I hope it is an isolated incident, and I hope it is not a reflective situation of the "stressful" work environment depicted throughout this forum.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Jun 27^th, 2007, 9:47am

on 06/26/07 at 21:21:52, applied wrote:

Apparently there was no punching just some slapping. No one in my lab is sure of the cause. We think it was because he couldn't get a case counted for that bi-week. We don't know who the first person he slapped was but it might have been their TA (I'm pretty sure it wasn't the trainer).

It's pretty much impossible to get fired for low production this early into the academy unless you blatantly just sit there and do nothing. You'll start sending out cases about two months into the training academy. You're expected to gradually ramp up to full production. Most of the people in my lab aren't at 100% yet.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Jun 27^th, 2007, 9:53am

on 06/25/07 at 21:55:15, Know wrote:

Hello,

Can anyone recommend any good books to learn patent law? Or any law college websites that has good notes and slide shows..

I'm trying to prepare to work at the uspto.

The pace of the training academy is as slow as molasses. There is plenty of time to learn everything and then some.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by MikeM on Jun 27^th, 2007, 10:45am

I have a bit more complete version of how it went down, though mine is still just based on the g****vine (incident was not in my lab)... Apparently the guy was pissed that his SPE put all three of his cases in to be counted when he only wanted two counted (he wanted to save one I guess? ???)... Anyway, he was angry and during his fit he punched a ceiling tile. Another guy from his lab told him to chill, and he slapped the guy. A girl from his lab laughed at his immature silliness and he slapped her too. Apparently he had slapped her before, as well, and the lab had covered for him. The guy was clearly unhinged and had some issues... we're not by any means under pressure yet!

But yeah, if you're wondering what you can get fired for during the training academy, add that to the list! He was gone the same day!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by gh on Jun 27^th, 2007, 8:16pm

That's whole PTA slapping stuff is the craziest thing I've ever heard. Kinda speaks volumes about what happens when you have to hire a thousand people a year....

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by sam32sam on Jun 28^th, 2007, 6:13pm

Its sad that people resort to violence when they don't get their way. I'm surprised this guy was hired, I'm thinking he may have a criminal record or something.

What happened to the people that got slapped?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest11 on Jun 28^th, 2007, 6:44pm

Sorry if this has been asked before but do you need to have already passed the patent bar to apply for the PE training in the academy? Thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jun 28^th, 2007, 7:59pm

guest11,

The answer to your question is, "no." You do not need to take the patent bar to apply for a PE position at the USPTO. More details on the requirements and qualifications for a PE position can be found here:

http://usptocareers.gov/home.asp

http://usptocareers.gov/jobsearch.asp

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by CYKJ on Jun 29^th, 2007, 2:36pm

I applied on USAJOBS/ApplicationManager on 4/2/07. After an interview at the job fair (6/16) and checking back with the SPE who interviewed me today, I finally received an email from the SPE telling me to fax in the OF form and the PIV certificate.

So from this point on what else is left and how long will I have to be waiting? (The SPE was quick to point out that this wasn't an offer at all yet). At the time of the interview the SPE said that I may even be hired for the 7/10 date but unless some miraculous chain of events occur, I doubt I'd even get a firm offer by then.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by applied on Jun 29^th, 2007, 6:20pm

on 06/29/07 at 14:36:43, CYKJ wrote:

That email should have given you an idea of what's going to happen next.

After the director of your TC authorizes and approves, you'll will be recommended for hire and your paperwork will be sent to the human resources office for the critical processing: give you a verbal and written firm offer. That's if everything go well.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jun 29^th, 2007, 8:28pm

Just wondering...has anyone's application packet every made it to the Human Resources Office, and then they didn't get the offer? What kinds of things would prevent the Human Resources Office from approving the application and presenting the written/verbal offer to the applicant? It seems that if a SPE wants to hire someone, and the TC director approves it, the applicant should get hired, as long as there is nothing crazy in the applicant's history...as if it's all just a formality?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by bobloblaw on Jun 30^th, 2007, 3:00pm

I just filled out one of the online questionaires that the PTO makes everyone who is applying for a job fill out. Anybody have any comments or words about it? I want to know if I am already pre-empted from being an examiner because of my personality.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jul 2^nd, 2007, 9:22pm

hello bobloblaw, I'm not sure if that questionnaire is a big deal. I've never heard anything or received any feedback about my answers from that. I wonder if the hiring SPEs/Coordinators even look at that.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jul 2^nd, 2007, 9:32pm

Hello Everyone,

So I finally received my formal offer over the phone today. That means it took a little less than 3 weeks from when I submitted my electronic forms (HSPD-12, of306, etc) to receive the phone offer from the Human Resources Office.

I also learned something that might be great news to many. There is a 'brand spankin new' recruitment incentive, as the HR guy put it. He offered me a 5k yearly bonus for 4 years and I asked him what it was for. I know it's at least for biomedical engineers and mechanical engineers, but I think he said it's for most engineers besides the EE/CE since they already have a nicer recruitment incentive. After I talked to him for a little though I found out that he had to take that part of the offer back because I am currently a federal employee working for the Dept. of Defense. Even though it's not written anywhere on their website, they are not allowed to give those recruitment incentives to present federal employees unless they have a break in service of at least 90 days...doesn't matter what agency or department they work for in the entire government. You can still get it though if you're a contractor of the federal government.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by aa11bb22 on Jul 3^rd, 2007, 1:51am

I'm a BioMed Eng, starting next Mon. I got an e-mail last Thurs informing me that I can get the 5k incentive, renewable for4 years.

I know the USPTO is all about production. Obviously, if you don't meet your production goal, you get warned and eventually fired. For someone starting out in the PTO, what is an expected production level after they finish the academy? Or how many cases would they need to proccess?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jul 3^rd, 2007, 9:01am

Hi aa11bb22,

Did the email say anything specifically about what group of people are eligible for the new 5k recruitment incentive? Just wondering...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by applied on Jul 3^rd, 2007, 11:45am

mande,

Congratulations ! The waiting paid off.

I remember one of your previous posts says that we have similar timelines. However as of now, I still have not gotten that precious phone call yet.

Can you tell me if there is anything that you had done that might had helped to expedite the process? Such as calling the HR to check on the status a number of times?

When is your start day (PTA)?

Thanks!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by uh huh on Jul 3^rd, 2007, 9:34pm

Has the hiring coordinator asked you (via email after the interview) to fill out the federal employment and security forms? If so, and you have, call HR and tell them you've done everything and are just waiting on them. If you don't sound like you know what you're talking about they'll give you the run-around. But they CAN check the status of your application, (it's just they'd rather keep you in the dark).

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anon Examiner on Jul 3^rd, 2007, 10:04pm

on 10/10/06 at 11:18:33, salary wrote:

i'm starting at the uspto soon at $60k/yr. I've been told by many that there is a chance I could make up to 6 figures after 3 yrs. How realistic is that? What does it depend on?

It completely depends on how quickly you can churn out cases with proper grounds of rejection. What you want to do is learn how to do the job right and build an enormous pipeline. If your rejections are proper all the time then applicants will continuously be forced to file RCEs and you will get a huge number of counts for doing nothing.

You actually make more money at the lower levels billing overtime than you do as a GS-14 primary at the lower steps doing the same amount of work. I've been at the PTO for 3 years and will make at least 110k this year. If you can produce like a primary examiner then you will get paid as much as one. I even know someone that turned down a promotion because it would drop their salary.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jul 3^rd, 2007, 10:33pm

Hi Applied,

Thanks for the congrats. My PTA start date is August 20. You should sign up for a real account in this forum so that I can PM you....or if you PM me with your email addy I can send you longer emails with more details that might bore others on here.

But to answer your question, I don't think I did anything to help expedite the process. I did follow up with the secretary/admin person who sent me the email on behalf of my hiring SPE, to request those forms (HSPD-12, of306) to be filled out. I just kindly asked her if she could let me know what the status of my application packet was...whether it was still with the TC director, in the Patent Hiring Center, or with the Human Resources Office. I sent this email to her last week on June 26 and she responded the same day telling me that my application packet is "now in the Patent Hiring Center". And she also told me it may take about another week or 10 days for HR to contact me from that point.

So, if you want to follow up with someone I would recommend you contact the person who sent you the email requesting you to fill out those additional forms, because they are the one that was probably responsible for putting the application package together to pass on for signatures/approval.

I did follow up once or twice with my hiring SPE but I just asked him some other questions....not related to the status of my application.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by bobloblaw on Jul 4^th, 2007, 9:59pm

Congratulations mandejapan! (Also thanks for answering my question.)

Hopefully I will be able to become one of the elect.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by reese on Jul 4^th, 2007, 11:01pm

Hi. Is it true that if you have a master's degree you could work your way up to being a GS-15 level patent examiner? Also, is there a way to become a GS-14 examiner without having full signatory authority?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by patent_exam on Jul 5^th, 2007, 8:20am

You can work your way up to a GS-14 as an examiner.
That is the highest level for examiners. You do not need any special degree to get to GS-14, just your bachelors. You work your way up by getting promoted.
To get promoted to GS-13, you have to pass the certification exam. To get promoted to GS-14, you have to pass the signatory program. So, yes, all GS-14s have full sig authority.

GS-15 are management positions, such as SPE (supervisory patent examiner). In order to be promoted to this position, you have to interview, pass a test ( I believe) and be selected to be a manager. These manager promotions are competitive with each other, whereas examiner promotions are not.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by MikeM on Jul 5^th, 2007, 10:13am

on 07/04/07 at 23:01:10, reese wrote:

You can work your way up to GS-15 no matter what degree you came in with... your degree just determines your starting grade. Getting GS-15 without becoming a SPE or such is difficult though. You're not going to get GS-14 without becoming a primary examiner (full sig).

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by MikeM on Jul 5^th, 2007, 10:37am

on 07/05/07 at 08:20:17, patent_exam wrote:

There is a GS-15 examiner program where you can get all the way to GS-15 without moving into management... There are various titles for it (expert examiner, etc), but they all amount to the same thing: be there a long time, have exemplary work, and be willing to accept a position factor of 1.5 for your production (which is a ridonkulous amount of work!)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by bobjay on Jul 5^th, 2007, 8:27pm

on 07/03/07 at 22:04:29, Anon Examiner wrote:

if you don't mind telling me, since you're anon =)

what gs level/step did you start out at, what level/step are you now...

and how many hours overtime per biweek do you have to work to get to 110k?

is it true that you get paid 1.5x overtime u p to gs9 and from gs11 its only 1x paid overtime?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anon Examiner on Jul 5^th, 2007, 10:00pm

on 07/05/07 at 20:27:33, bobjay wrote:

I'm not going to disclose my exact grade/step for fear of outing myself. Sorry. I will tell you that I'm a GS-9 or above. All GS-9 and above examiners are given a laptop so that they can bill overtime from home.

I'm billing about 40 hours of OT in an average bi-week. I'm in the office for 80 hours a bi-week.

If your base rate is higher than 36.44/hour then your overtime rate is your base rate. If your base rate is less than 36.44 an hour then your overtime rate is the lesser of (1) 1.5x your base rate; and (2) 36.44/hour. For GS-9s and most GS-11s this means that their overtime rate is 36.44 an hour.

If you want to make money early in your career at the PTO and are willing to work hard then I suggest getting hired at GS-11, step 10. You'd maximize your returns because your base and overtime rate would be 39.80 an hour. This is a very high rate for the amount of work required of a GS-11. At GS-11, step 10, doing average primary examiner production, you're looking at about 130-140k/year.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anon Examiner on Jul 5^th, 2007, 10:07pm

on 07/05/07 at 10:13:30, MikeM wrote:

There are actually a lot of GS-14 examiners with partial sig. If you achieve a master's rating in your art and pass the first half of the program (partial sig), then you become a GS-14 right away. This is, of course, really nice, because your production requirement stays that of a GS-13. It would be a great time to bill lots of overtime. I *think* you need a master's degree to achieve a master's rating.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anon Examiner on Jul 5^th, 2007, 10:17pm

on 07/05/07 at 10:37:36, MikeM wrote:

You only have to be a GS-14 for one year before being promoted to GS-15. I know someone that did this. But, I think the additional money is hardly worth the stress. Besides, as a GS-14 you can bill overtime whenever you want and make almost as much money.

If you want money that bad then I would suggest working on getting promoted to SPE. All benefits included, SPEs make even more per actual hour worked than associates in firms. SPEs even make more money than BPAI members since BPAI members don't get overtime or bonuses.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by MikeM on Jul 6^th, 2007, 7:47am

on 07/05/07 at 22:07:42, Anon Examiner wrote:

I've heard of this master's rating before... how exactly do you get it? I've been told by a primary that some (if not many) SPEs just won't let you do it...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anxious_Canadate on Jul 6^th, 2007, 4:36pm

First, thank you all for the wonderful resource that is this thread.

I have applied for a position at USPTO on 6.01.07 and now have some big decisions to make.

I am currently a law student in the DC area, just finished my second year at UDC (great school, but not for IP law). I am interested in taking a break, three years of law school seems a waste without experiance in the areas I am interested.

I have completed the 'canidate questionaire'.

My understanding is that I am now waiting for a call for an interview, please correct me if I am wrong.

My problem is now what timeline to expect. It appears that it may be months before I even hear about a possible offer from USPTO and very soon I will have to start making decisions about Financial Aid and Fall class registration.

My understanding is that there are Patent Training Classes begining on Aug 20 and Sept 17.

My Question: Is it realistic to think that I may be hiried that quickly? I have seen that it appears to take at least 3 months from interview to start date, is this the normal experiance? Thank you to anyone who can help a very anxious canadate who is very excited about possibly working at the USPTO.

Background:
BS in Electrical and Computer Engineering
MS in Electrical Engineering
4+ years chip design
2 years of Law school (3.7)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by guest1040 on Jul 6^th, 2007, 6:30pm

on 07/06/07 at 16:36:20, Anxious_Canadate wrote:

I'm just curious as to why you want to work for the PTO instead of completing your third year of school? Since you have a great GPA and engineering degree, it sounds like you shouldn't have any problems landing an associate position at a law firm. Are you planning on taking a year off from law school to work at the pto, or you planning on working while finishing up your third year?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Tiger4852 on Jul 6^th, 2007, 10:34pm

Hello - I am a senior in EE at reputable engineering school. I would like to get involved in patent work in DC area after graduation. I plan to pursue Juris Doctor degree with part-time schooling at one of the DC area law schools.

During the day, I would like to work as a PE at the USPTO. A couple questions:

1) I am going to need help paying for law school, and would like to avoid taking loans out as much as possible. After a certain period, I believe the USPTO will pay for law school tuition. Is this true? After how long? Is there any requirement that I stay at the patent office after I graduate if they help with school?

Also, very importantly - does this seem to be the best path financially? Or would it be more advantageous to go work for a law firm after two years, for example?

2) What grade/step would I likely come in at when I graduate? I am a EE, 3.9+ GPA at good school, and have four semesters of co-op/internship experience. I know this is not as much experience as many who come into the patent field as somewhat of a career shift, but would appreciate anyone's guess on a likely GS-level at the USPTO that I would be hired at. How long before first promotion?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anon Examiner on Jul 7^th, 2007, 8:06am

on 07/06/07 at 07:47:27, MikeM wrote:

I've heard of this master's rating before... how exactly do you get it? I've been told by a primary that some (if not many) SPEs just won't let you do it...

I think you need a master's degree in your art area or a master's degree with a certain number of credits directly applicable to your art. I suggest asking your SPE for the exact requirements.

I've never heard of a SPE not letting an examiner become a master in the art. I can't think of a motivation that would cause a SPE to act this way unless they actually thought you might make GS-14 and never become a primary. And, I think everyone at that level wants their own stamp. If I were in such a situation I would transfer immediately.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anon Examiner on Jul 7^th, 2007, 8:36am

on 07/06/07 at 22:34:54, Tiger4852 wrote:

1) The USPTO "pays" for law school after 2 years of service. However, there are a few things that I think you should consider before going on this path.

First, law school tuition is mostly taxable. The first $5250 is not taxable, but the rest is. You'll almost surely be in the 28% bracket. So, you're looking at 28 (federal) + 5.75 (state) + 7.45 (SSA, Medicare) = 41.2% tax. That turns out to be about $9000/year, unless you go to Mason. For most people this is their entire disposable income.

Second, when you finish you owe the USPTO 1 month for every 3 credits, which means about 2.5 years. And, by that time, you'll surely be a primary examiner, and possibly even a SPE. SPE is arguably a better job than associate (not partner) at any firm (SPEs make 145k with overtime + 15k bonus + pension, and get 392 hrs of leave, etc.) So, you may very well end up going through all that schooling for no reason.

If you actually want to work for a law firm I would not suggest getting a law degree while working at the USPTO. Financially, you have the right idea. Work for the PTO for about 2 years, then go to a firm that pays the tuition directly to your school, and has reduced billable hour requirements for agents in law school. That way you'd be able to get yourself on a partnership track early, you'd still be making money while in school (by avoiding the taxman), and your workload wouldn't be all that bad (until your done, that is).

I bet you could come in as a GS-9. Probably, GS-9, step 10. I think the first promotion is still 6 months. But, assuming you can bill overtime, the promotion is actually less money in the short term. If you're planning to leave I think you should come in at GS-9, step 10, bill max OT once you get the laptop at 1 year, and then go to a firm at two years.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jul 7^th, 2007, 10:03am

Hi Tiger4852,

I'm not sure if you'd be able to start at a GS 9 without a master's degree. They are usually only able to start you at GS 7 step 10 if you have a bachelor's degree (with good grades) or a GS 9 step 8 if you have a master's degree. If you have a full time job with a current salary and can show your salary in writing, the HR Office can match your current salary, so that's one way to get a GS 9 step 9 or 10. The good thing for you though is that you would get the nice EE/CE recruitment bonus of about 8k per year for 4 years, so that's an extra 32k if you stayed there the entire time.

At least this was my experience...and one of my friend's also had a similar experience.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anon Examiner on Jul 7^th, 2007, 10:22am

He said he's got some internship experience. He can get hired as a GS-9 with a bachelor's degree and 1 year of experience. If he can successfully spin internship experience to be actual experience then he's good to go. He seems like a really good candidate, and it wouldn't be the first time this has happened.

You're right about the GS-9, step 8 thing. He'd need to get an offer for 72k elsewhere make GS-9, step 10 starting. But, with a 3.9 in EE, in today's economy, this should not be very difficult to pull off. I suggest he apply to companies in California, where the cost of living is high, just to get an offer for the USPTO to match.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by examinerguest on Jul 7^th, 2007, 10:35am

"Work for the PTO for about 2 years, then go to a firm that pays the tuition directly to your school, and has reduced billable hour requirements for agents in law school. That way you'd be able to get yourself on a partnership track early, you'd still be making money while in school (by avoiding the taxman), and your workload wouldn't be all that bad (until your done, that is). "

How would you avoid the taxman working for a law firm that pays the tuition as opposed to the USPTO?

Does anyone know good firms around DC that do tuition reimbursement for agents that have worked the patent office for a couple of years? I know Finnigan, but there have to be more.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anon Examiner on Jul 7^th, 2007, 7:01pm

on 07/07/07 at 10:35:45, examinerguest wrote:

Most firms (e.g., Finnegan) write checks directly to the schools, so you never get taxed for tuition. At the USPTO, the tuition reimbursement goes directly to you, and you get taxed to death.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Isaac on Jul 7^th, 2007, 9:06pm

on 07/07/07 at 19:01:01, Anon Examiner wrote:

Most firms (e.g., Finnegan) write checks directly to the schools, so you never get taxed for tuition. At the USPTO, the tuition reimbursement goes directly to you, and you get taxed to death.

Paying a student's tuition (or any other debt of the student) is still income to the student for federal tax purposes. You cannot avoid paying federal taxes in this way. The firm could choose to "gross up" the tuition payment and thus pay the student's taxes.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Tiger4852 on Jul 7^th, 2007, 11:51pm

Thank you everyone for your input. Lots of good information!

If it is true that one cannot get out of paying taxes on law school tuition (without grossing up income), then it seems that working at the PTO for at least four years without leaving for a law firm would have its advantages. The pay would be decent, especially if I agreed to the service agreement to get the EE/CE recruitment incentive bonus. Also, it seems that one could not find a better job to work while going to school than at the PTO due to some of the government benefits, and especially the flex work schedule. Maybe some of you have opinions on this.

I would likely start law school paying out of pocket immediately in the first Fall working at the PTO if everything works out. Then the PTO would only pay for my final two years of tuition, and it seems I would owe them only about 1 year of service after I graduate if they paid for credits just over those two years.

As long as you are all being so helpful, I'd also like to ask a couple more things :)

-When can I begin to apply to the USPTO? Whenever I contact them via e-mail, they just refer me to their website. I graduate in May 2008. I've heard that I may not be able to apply until October when the government's new fiscal year budget is set??

-If I went through with all of this, when would be the best time to take the patent bar exam?

Thanks everyone, I appreciate it!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anon Examiner on Jul 8^th, 2007, 8:00am

on 07/07/07 at 21:06:26, Isaac wrote:

If this is true then I know at least two people that are violating the tax laws. I don't know if there are any penalties for playing dumb and hoping the IRS doesn't find out. But, people are definitely doing it.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anon Examiner on Jul 8^th, 2007, 8:06am

on 07/07/07 at 23:51:31, Tiger4852 wrote:

I'm not familiar with the current recruiting process, but I can address your second question. If you work for the PTO for 4 years and pass the certification exam then you can get the patent bar waived.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anon Examiner on Jul 8^th, 2007, 8:08am

on 07/07/07 at 23:51:31, Tiger4852 wrote:

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by blackcat on Jul 8^th, 2007, 9:32pm

Hi all, I applied to the biotechnology art unit back in June 2007 via USAjobs, and HR sent me an email saying that I am qualified for the position and the grade level (GS-9). I then contacted one of the hiring managers and he told me that currently biotechnology unit is not hiring in this fiscal year. I just wrote to another hiring manager requesting an information interview.

I have also been applying to technology specialist positions in law firms. My strategy is that I want to get my feet wet in the IP field while keep on applying to PTO. I actually wouldn't mind starting out in a law firm and to see if I want to stay on, but my husband and I want to start family planning next year and I want to have the flex time and day care options.

What do you think of my approach, and can you advise me on how to proceed from here, given my situation?

Thanks!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Wayne on Jul 9^th, 2007, 6:45pm

What will be asked in the interview for a patent examiner position? I got an interview opportunity in Canada patent office after successfully passing the written exam. It will be a group interview, sounds quite different than the ones I had before for engineering jobs. A little bit nervous....

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anon Examiner on Jul 9^th, 2007, 8:59pm

on 07/09/07 at 18:45:39, Wayne wrote:

They'll likely ask you about your technical background. But, you're almost guaranteed to know more about the art than the person you're interviewing with.

Also, they'll likely ask you what your motivation is for applying to the patent office because they'll want to know that you have some idea what you're getting into and that you will not leave after just a few months.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by applied on Jul 10^th, 2007, 8:51am

I attended an interview invitational event three weeks ago and interviewed with an SPE. Two weeks later I still hadn't received an email or phone call, so I called HR to check on the status of my application. HR told me that my application was being reviewed by a Hiring Coordinator. Does this mean the SPE recommended me? And, who exactly is a Hiring Coordinator, is he/she a PE?

I still haven't received a phone call or email to fax in any background forms, so I'm starting to think my application fell through. I'm actually surprised the SPE sent my application along, my GPA is pretty bad, and I felt like the SPE didn't really understand what I was talking about during the interview because his art was unrelated to my degree.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jul 11^th, 2007, 10:52pm

When I was at the USPTO HR Office the other day picking up some of my paperwork, the HR guy told me that they are in the process of setting up satellite offices where a patent examiner can just go in there and work at one of the stations. He even mentioned that there should be one in Baltimore or something. Just wondering if anyone else has heard of a pilot program or knows anything more concrete related to this that might be going on currently. Thanks...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jul 11^th, 2007, 11:19pm

When I did a google search I found a few articles like this one online but nothing that was very current:

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/stories/2006/05/15/daily29.html?from_rss=1

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by MikeM on Jul 12^th, 2007, 8:17am

at a recent TC meeting the TC director was asked about this and said that while it's been discussed, it's not something they're currently working on setting up. I also got the impression that when they do begin working on satellite offices, they are going to focus on west of the Mississippi...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jul 12^th, 2007, 9:07am

I found out more info about what the HR guy was telling me. He sent me an email saying this:

"There are numerous off site work stations throughout the greater Washington/Baltimore metropolitan area. I believe currently a patent examiner would qualify to tele-work after his/her second year. For you by then the need to tele-work may be even greater, and the agency may have even better innovations to this program."

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by gh on Jul 12^th, 2007, 9:46am

As it currently stands, you cannot join the telework program until you're a GS-12. You need at least 2 yrs of experience to participate.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by gh on Jul 12^th, 2007, 10:00am

According to POPA's latest newsletter (popa dot org), the USPTO ranks 172 out of 222 government agencies on the "best places to work" scale. As they point out, this means that 77 % of govt insitutions have higher worker satisfaction than the PTO.

They have a breakdown of survey results that shows what examiners like and dislike about the institution. This may be useful for people.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by MikeM on Jul 12^th, 2007, 11:29am

take POPA's statements with the same grain of salt that you take management's with... POPA is consistently hostile towards management, and speaks of everything in generally negative terms. Conversely, management makes everything seem sunnier than it is... They've got the whole traditional thesis+antithesis=synthesis theory operating...

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by gh on Jul 12^th, 2007, 1:01pm

The data that POPA is re-printing in its article comes from the OPM (Office of Personnel Managment) annual federal human capital survey. In other words, it doesn't come from POPA at all. The OPM is completely independent of the PTO (management or union). You can find the original online without going to the POPA site.

It's the OPM study that ranks 77% of the Fed govt institutions higher than the PTO in terms of worker satisfaction.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by gh on Jul 12^th, 2007, 1:08pm

The rankings are available on 3ws dot bestplacestowork dot org:

rankings->agency subcomponents-> USPTO is #172

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by ky on Jul 12^th, 2007, 2:44pm

How long after submitting an application via USAjobs can I expect a reply from HR? I submitted my app on 7/3 for EE PE. Thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by iSee on Jul 12^th, 2007, 5:19pm

I'd like to find an apartment within walking distance (less than half a mile) from the DC Metro stations, such as the Pentagon, Crystal City, or Braddock. That way, if I start to work for USPTO, I will be able to completely use the Metro to go to work without any driving or parking headaches. Plus, USPTO will pay $110/month for transportation subsidy.

Can anyone suggest the names of apartments which are close to those 3 Metro stations I mentioned above?

Thank you for your kind assistance.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by iSee on Jul 12^th, 2007, 5:29pm

I have another question related to the above:

Do the Metro stations have parking? How much is parking at these stations, and is it very hard to get a spot during the commute time, such as between 7 and 8 am?

Thanks again.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anastasia Beeverhausen on Jul 12^th, 2007, 6:50pm

You shouldn't just consider apartments on the metro line. Some apartments or other homes/townhouse rentals are on the Alexandria DASH bus routes. I take the AT10 Dash bus from Reed Avenue to King Street Metro, where most of the DASH lines have a stop. It's about a twenty minute commute to work and not nearly as crowded as the metro. You can see the DASH bus route and schedules by searching "DASH Alexandria" in Google.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by iSee on Jul 12^th, 2007, 8:26pm

on 07/12/07 at 18:50:15, Beeverhausen wrote:

Anastasia,

Thanks for the info. Are you working at USPTO?

If so, do you know if the Transportation Subsidy (don't know the exact term) will cover parking at Metro or bus stations?

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by ExaminerJr on Jul 12^th, 2007, 8:56pm

on 07/12/07 at 20:26:19, iSee wrote:

If so, do you know if the Transportation Subsidy (don't know the exact term) will cover parking at Metro or bus stations?

Transportation subsidy is not to be used to cover parking costs.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anastasia Beeverhausen on Jul 13^th, 2007, 3:10pm

Yes, I'm at the PTO (since last September) - - I don't know about parking at the metro stations. I occasionally drive to work and park at the garage at the PTO. Parking is $10/day or you can get your ticket validated and pay $7/$8.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by iSee on Jul 13^th, 2007, 5:34pm

on 07/13/07 at 15:10:09, Anastasia Beeverhausen wrote:

Thanks again, Anastasia.

I'm struggling to decide where to rent an apartment, in Alexandria. I'd prefer not to drive to work at all if possible. Originally, I was more leaned toward renting near a Metro subway station (even as far away as Rosslyn). Now after reading your suggestion, I am also trying to find apartments with DASH stop within walking distance.

Upon looking at the DASH system map, I just don't know where to start or how to decide: so many routes!

I'd like to live not too close to USPTO, yet not more than 20 minutes bus ride. Had never been to that area (Alexandria), it is difficult for me to evaluate. Even with maps and other things, it is not easy. Calling the apartments will always get positive answers about themselves.

Can you give me some suggestions to narrow down the search? Which areas of Alexandria, which streets, or any suggestions on which apartment?

I am willing to pay in the neighborhood of $1300/month for a one-bedroom apartment unit. A bus stop (outbound to USPTO) close by of the apartment is preferred.

Thanks!

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by Anastasia Beeverhausen on Jul 13^th, 2007, 6:03pm

Try to get a short-term lease that will allow you to look around (in person) at other places and not be tied down to one place for too long just in case you decide you don't like it and want/need to move somewhere else. I am renting at a place called Glebe House which offers three-month leases on furnished or unfurnished one bedroom and studios.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by shall on Jul 14^th, 2007, 3:11pm

Hello community,

I have a unique situation that I have not heard anyone speak of yet in this forum. I received an email in late May stating that I have been recommended for employment in Tech Center “X” and to fill out the appropriate forms. I immediately complied. I had not received an official offer. After communicating with an individual in HR I was notified about 3 weeks later that I was not extended a formal offer yet because they are “having an extremely hard time finding an art unit that can take 3 veterans” that must be hired before they can hire anyone else off of the referral list as per their hiring policy. The SPE that I interviewed with could not provide any assistance or advice. I am wondering if anyone out there can address my situation. It should be considered that I told HR that I could not start until September 17 PTA class. Just concerned that there may be other reasons holding up my offer and that it may take until the end of time to be officially brought on board and time is ticking. Any thoughts?

CHEERS

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by applied on Jul 15^th, 2007, 10:00am

Hi mandejapan,

How long did it take for you to get the written official offer from USPTO after the verbal phone offer? Did it come in regular US Mail, or was it Fedex/UPS ? If you don't mind, can you let us know at what GS level/step you got hired ?

Thanks.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jul 15^th, 2007, 1:02pm

on 07/15/07 at 10:00:07, applied wrote:

Sure. I got the formal offer over the phone on Monday, July 2nd at about 1030am. By Tuesday, July 3rd, around 4pm my Accession Package (with formal written offer) was ready for me to pick up at the USPTO HR Office. I asked my HR guy to hold onto it so I could pick it up on Thursday, July 5th since I was visiting the area that day anyway, but if he mailed it out by Tuesday when it was ready, I'm guessing I would have had it in the mail by the end of the week.

I got hired at GS 9, Step 9 because they were matching my current salary. I also had a masters degree so that would have started me at GS 9, Step 8 if I didn't have work experience. Wish I could have taken that non EE/CE sign on bonus (20k over 4 years) that they first offered me, but I guess you win some, and you lose some.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jul 15^th, 2007, 1:23pm

I forgot to answer one of your questions. For mail I think it was going to be mailed in regular US Mail because it was in a plain off white unmarked envelope.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by applied on Jul 15^th, 2007, 1:49pm

on 07/15/07 at 13:23:25, mandejapan wrote:

I forgot to answer one of your questions. For mail I think it was going to be mailed in regular US Mail because it was in a plain off white unmarked envelope.

Thanks for your prompt and informative response.

I got my verbal phone offer on 7/12. Still have not receive any written offer in the mail. All I can say is that I am just too over-anxious in my personality. Hopefully, my "over-anxious" personality will not get in the way of becoming a successful PE. :)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jul 15^th, 2007, 8:24pm

No problem Applied. I was like you too. :)

I would say you should get your written formal offer this week. You could always call up the HR guy/gal that called you and follow up.

What is your PTA start date and what TC will you be working in? Or Art Unit if you don't mind being that specific? Just curious...you could PM me. We should keep in touch if we might be in the same PTA class. :)

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mk1023 on Jul 15^th, 2007, 8:39pm

on 07/15/07 at 13:23:25, mandejapan wrote:

I forgot to answer one of your questions. For mail I think it was going to be mailed in regular US Mail because it was in a plain off white unmarked envelope.

I got mine through next day Federal Express.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by mandejapan on Jul 15^th, 2007, 9:18pm

I think normally they do send it by FEDEX because my friend received it by FEDEX too. I also think it might be based on how quickly they need you to fill out your papwerwork depending on your PTA start date. Federal government usually does use FEDEX for everything. They do include a prepaid FEDEX envelope inside the Accession Package so that you can FEDEX back your fingerprint card at their expense.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by apartment advice on Jul 16^th, 2007, 1:02pm

iSee,

You should look at Foxchase apartments, they have a free shuttle to the metro next to the PTO, the ride is about 10-15 min. Rent is reasonable, not sure how much 1 bed is but they offer a discount for PTO employees.

Title: Re: Working for the USPTO
Post by iSee on Jul 16^th, 2007, 11:50pm

on 07/16/07 at 13:02:53, apartment advice wrote: